Doomsday piles with "Exile"

[AmbivalentDuck]

Every card that removes something from the game, from Jester's Cap to Astral Slide to Identity Crisis, will be getting errata to use the word "exile" instead. But none of these cards are functionally changing.

Exiled cards are not outside the game (and you could argue that they never really were), so these cards (Wishes, etc) will no longer be able to access cards in that zone. Their primary functionality—getting cards from your collection or sideboard—remains unchanged, of course.

Without assuming any changes in the B/R list, can Doomsday still kill without many more dead cards main?

From my old primer:

Pass the turn (need UB open)
Ancestral
Lotus
Ritual
Mind's Desire
Research -> 2x Tendrils + defense of some sort

Cast Gush (nothing else needed)
Lotus
Ancestral
Lotus Petal
Yawgmoth's Will
Research -> Lotus, Petal, Tendrils

Lotus for UUU, Ancestral, Petal for B, Will, Lotus for UUU, Petal for G, Research for Lotus, Petal, Tendrils, Ancestral, Lotus for BBB, Petal for B, Tendrils

Cast Gush with Leyline in play (nothing else needed)
Lotus (for UUU)
Ancestral
Lotus Petal (for G)
Brainstorm
Research -> Lotus, Petal, Tendrils

Cast Brainstorm (nothing else needed)
Black Lotus
Dark Ritual
Yawgmoth's Will
Mind' s Desire
Research -> 2x Tendrils, protection

Every single pile is broken.  You now need at least 2x Tendrils in the sb.  Alternative mana sources/kills need to be found.

Becker's Fastbond piles require changes in the B/R list.

Gush
Fastbond
Gush
Yawgmoth's Will
R&D (Tendrils, Lotus, XXXX, XXXX)

One pile from Steve remains unchanged, but the inclusion of LED here probably wrecks piles that require it in the SB for R&D.

1) Ancestral
2) Black Lotus/LED
3) Lion's Eye Diamond/ Black Lotus
4) Yawgmoth's Will
5) and Tendrils of Agony

Suggestions for searching for new piles (which I'll compile in this post since the availability of piles determines D-day's playability as much as anything):
1. We still have Sins of the Past and its interaction Mind's Desire/Burning Wish/LED.
2. Fastbond + Will + 2x Gush, even as a singleton, makes a lot of mana.  We just need a card that tutors for "exiled" cards in 2010.
a. Pull from Eternity: W, Instant, Put target face-up card that's in exile into its owner's graveyard.  It's a 1 mana tutor for Black Lotus post-Will.  Not the end of the world to have to put one of these into your SB.
b. Riftsweeper, 1G, 2/2 creature, When Riftsweeper comes into play, choose target face-up card that's exiled. Its owner shuffles it into his or her library.  Smaller R&D, obv much worse than the original was.
3. Tez/Vault/Key + just cast R&D.  Pretty easy to kill with 4+ consecutive turns.

[Clint_NZ]

I know this may sound strange but I still play Doomsday with Beacon of Destruction

The "old" lists never used R&D to the extent that is now being used.

Exile does not really effect this kill condition.

So Doomsday without R&D is still playable.

||Library Top||
1) Ancestral Recall
2) Black Lotus
3) Dark Ritual
4) Mind's Desire
5) Beacon of Destruction
||Library Bottom||
How does this win? You Ancestral into Black Lotus, Dark Ritual, and Mind's Desire. You play the Ritual and the Lotus and cast Mind's Desire with storm count four or more. Then the first Desire copy resolves, finding Beacon. You cast it at instant speed, and it shuffles back in before the second Desire copy resolves. This happens a total of four times for twenty damage.

For reference here is the "Old Skool" decklist

Meandeck Doomsday
3 Island
1 Swamp
2 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea

1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual

1 Chromatic Sphere

4 Doomsday
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Will

1 Timetwister
2 Rebuild

1 Gush
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Mind's Desire
1 Mystical Tutor

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm

4 Duress
4 Unmask
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Beacon of Destruction

Out of date but still a good starting point if interested in building

Cheers
Clint

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

honestly, I'd look into lich's mirror

[Sam101]

How about:

Flash
Protean Hulk
Body Double
Reveillark
Mogg Fanatic

This works nicely with gush.  But I personally doubt it will be unrestricted after being restricted.  Twice.

Edit: Just realized I forgot carrion feeder.  So scratch that.

[OmniStrife_101]

How about:

Flash
Protean Hulk
Body Double
Reveillark
Mogg Fanatic

This works nicely with gush.  But I personally doubt it will be unrestricted after being restricted.  Twice.

Edit: Just realized I forgot carrion feeder.  So scratch that.

Hmmm, just following your proposed stack there, how about

Flash
Protean Hulk
Carrion Feeder
Kiki - Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Karmic Guide

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

flash is just better than doomsday in the "resolve this and win" catagory. you'd probably be running the 4x cunning wish to flash in sb opposed to this. Its easier to cast, and much less risky. I wouldn't consider it for a dday pile. doomsday is at best cunning wish number 9 after: demon, vamp, seal, and scroll.

[Purple Hat]

Is there a doomsday pile that would work well in an ad nauseam deck?

[Clint_NZ]

Is there a doomsday pile that would work well in an ad nauseam deck?

Short answer:
No

Long answer:
They are 2 completely different decks. Sure there are possibilities that could be put together to form a Dday pile, but why would you want to pollute ANT with Dday? If you get to resolve a Ad Nauseam, then flipping a Doomsday is just 3 life for no benefit. And at maximum you would only run 1 misers copy.

Also, Dday is best with Desire, Gush etc etc which you would also not want to run in ANT.

Just my 2c

Clint

[Purple Hat]

Is there a doomsday pile that would work well in an ad nauseam deck?

Short answer:
No

Long answer:
They are 2 completely different decks. Sure there are possibilities that could be put together to form a Dday pile, but why would you want to pollute ANT with Dday? If you get to resolve a Ad Nauseam, then flipping a Doomsday is just 3 life for no benefit. And at maximum you would only run 1 misers copy.

Also, Dday is best with Desire, Gush etc etc which you would also not want to run in ANT.

Just my 2c

Clint

I'd want to because if there's a reasonable pile that doesn't rely on a bunch of random cards you wouldn't want to play you could work in 2 doomsdays or something and increase the threat density of the deck.  ANT has some issues with only really running 6 bombs.  They're massive bombs, sure.  But there's only 6 of them.

[AmbivalentDuck]

The old Brainstorm piles with Will and Tendrils still work.  I don't remember if there even was a good Gush pile pre-R&D.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Wheel of Sun and Moon, omg!!!!

G/W G/W
Enchant player
If a card would be put into enchanted player's graveyard from anywhere, instead that card is revealed and put on the bottom of that player's library.

So, pile (need U or gush into pile, Wheel in play):
Ancestral
Lotus
Ponder
Petal
Tendrils

Primitive, for sure.  But if we figure out a pile with Wheel space included, we're solid.  Oh, and since you're going off on your own turn, it "beats" triggered effects and all other replacement effects.  So, there's no opportunity at all for grave hate to attack your combo.

[DarkfnTemplar]

Hey Justin,
 Now you can use outside notes and record piles. How lucky.

[Clint_NZ]

Soo true.

Outside notes would save soo much time. I have a "Book" on piles that can win under different conditions and trying to remember them is impossible.

As for Gush pile.


Ancestral
Black Lotus
Lion's-Eye Diamond
Yawgmoth's Will
Tendrils of Agony

So you have to have sea x2 or sea and island in play

so it goes...
Tap sea Dark Ritual (Storm 1), Doomsday (Storm 2)
Set the above stack
Tap Island U floating, Gush (storm 3) drawing Recall and Lotus. Play Lotus (Storm 4), Recall (Storm 5)
Drawing LED, Will and Tendrils.
Play LED (Storm 6) Crack Lotus BBB Play Will (Storm 7) and in response crack LED BBB
Replay your graveyard and Tendrils

Just one of the few.

I dislike Wheel of sun and moon in Doomsday, but just my opinion.

Cheers
Clint

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

Harlequin's "broken mirror" pile. I dug this out of the improvement forum

Recall
Lotus
Channel
Lich's Mirror
Cunning Wish

This pile wins for  alone after you draw recall, no storm required. Also it beats essentially ANY amount of graveyard hate, and can power through sphere effects fairly easiliy (assuming you enough mana in play to cast channel).  Also, recall and Lotus are interchangable with duress and/or pact if you have draw effects or two green mana.  

The basic win:
Draw recall, cast it drawing Lotus, Channel Mirror
Cast Lotus, sac green cast Channel
use life for colorless to cast Mirror
channel yourself to death
scoop up your board, GY, and remaining deck, shuffle it up and draw 7

[Doomsday]

Yeah I use the beacon too.  If it get's removed there's still cunning wish + research main deck and research, 2x tendrils & beacon in sideboard.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

Yeah I use the beacon too.  If it get's removed there's still cunning wish + research main deck and research, 2x tendrils & beacon in sideboard.

I've never in my life encountered a situation where beacon was better then something on color and more versatile.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Hey Justin,
 Now you can use outside notes and record piles. How lucky.

Huge time-saver.  It actually means less stalling.  Even sideboarding 'normal' decks is faster because you can follow recorded plans rather than having to remember them and make sure you've done it correctly.

[LordHomerCat]

From what I read, you can only have SB notes.  You don't get notes ingame, that's still illegal.  Can someone cite otherwise if I read it wrong?

[wiley]

From what I read, you can only have SB notes.  You don't get notes ingame, that's still illegal.  Can someone cite otherwise if I read it wrong?

It seems like you can have any kind of notes you want, but you can only access them either before the first game starts or between games.  If you look at notes during a game it is still considered outside assistance.

[LordHomerCat]

From what I read, you can only have SB notes.  You don't get notes ingame, that's still illegal.  Can someone cite otherwise if I read it wrong?

It seems like you can have any kind of notes you want, but you can only access them either before the first game starts or between games.  If you look at notes during a game it is still considered outside assistance.

So, no Doomsday notes unless you want to look pregame.  Which you could already do.  Don't get too excited guys, sorry.

[Doomsday]

Yeah I use the beacon too.  If it get's removed there's still cunning wish + research main deck and research, 2x tendrils & beacon in sideboard.

I've never in my life encountered a situation where beacon was better then something on color and more versatile.

For me it's sometimes better than other piles because it only requires 2 mana sources and the number/quality of cards already in your hand doesn't matter aside from having protection

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

Yeah I use the beacon too.  If it get's removed there's still cunning wish + research main deck and research, 2x tendrils & beacon in sideboard.

I've never in my life encountered a situation where beacon was better then something on color and more versatile.

For me it's sometimes better than other piles because it only requires 2 mana sources and the number/quality of cards already in your hand doesn't matter aside from having protection

the two mana pass the turn pile can be achived with research/developement in place of beacon.

edit: r/d also allows you to roll over things like rebuild if your facing down a platz

[Doomsday]

Yeah I use the beacon too.  If it get's removed there's still cunning wish + research main deck and research, 2x tendrils & beacon in sideboard.

I've never in my life encountered a situation where beacon was better then something on color and more versatile.

For me it's sometimes better than other piles because it only requires 2 mana sources and the number/quality of cards already in your hand doesn't matter aside from having protection

the two mana pass the turn pile can be achived with research/developement in place of beacon.

edit: r/d also allows you to roll over things like rebuild if your facing down a platz

I know what you're saying, I have r/d as well.  It's not really on-color for me though, I have no white sources other than petal, sphere and lotus.  I get it though, it's easier to hardcast and there are times when I'd actually want to (unlike the beacon).  I like to have the extra finisher in the deck in case one of them gets removed or I draw one of them and can't brainstorm/twister/discard.  Obviously I would prefer to do the same turn kill, but sometimes I don't have a sphere out or gush/brainstorm/ponder/the right number of cards in hand.

[vroman]

duck, I want to test against an m10 doomsday deck. is there a Mirror of Fate stack?

[AmbivalentDuck]

I don't think so.  Let's say you Gush or even Ancestral into the pile.

1) Gush/Ancestral
2) Black Lotus
3) Channel/Dark Rit
4) Mirror
5) Draw spell (which isn't free)

Mirror of Fate is really 4 cards in a 5 card stack: 2 mana sources, mirror, and an extra draw spell.  I'm going to say not happening. At that point, just pay 6 for Painter's Servant and Grindstone and have them be dead.

Doomsday died when Gush and Brainstorm were restricted since that nerfed the ability to play a Bob-Tendrils game against blue.  I wouldn't even bother testing against it.

[emidln]

I don't think so.  Let's say you Gush or even Ancestral into the pile.

1) Gush/Ancestral
2) Black Lotus
3) Channel/Dark Rit
4) Mirror
5) Draw spell (which isn't free)

Mirror of Fate is really 4 cards in a 5 card stack: 2 mana sources, mirror, and an extra draw spell.  I'm going to say not happening. At that point, just pay 6 for Painter's Servant and Grindstone and have them be dead.

Doomsday died when Gush and Brainstorm were restricted since that nerfed the ability to play a Bob-Tendrils game against blue.  I wouldn't even bother testing against it.

At last year's I-CON I won a small event with a homebrewed Doomsday deck building off Sensei's Top, Street Wraith, and the restricted draw spells + the restricted to hand tutors (for Gush basically; Scroll, DT count as 1U/1B draw spells). I don't know that I ever actually cast Research/Development and played it like a modified TPS deck. The only notable additions to the deck were Meditate and Cruel Bargain, although both probably aren't strictly necessary. The field wasn't the strongest, but I did go X-1 in games with the game I lost being a mistake (at the end of 10 rounds of Doomsday playing between Legacy and Vintage) where I misplaced the last two cards of a Doomsday pile and couldn't win. You don't strictly need prebuilt Doomsday piles if you simply approach the card as a mass tutor for your storm deck. In my vintage rounds I won with Doomsday about 50% of the time, with generic vintage storm wins (draw7 into tutor or bomby stuff into counters into my Will) making up the rest of the kills. I had a Plat Angel in the sb as a Tinker target but never used it. I'm sure that you could do something similar in vintage right now, although I don't know if it would be necessary stronger than just brewing a GrimLong list or a TPS list.