June 19th B+R Announcement!

[LotusHead]

I am never happy when a perfectly good Vintage card gets restricted without SERIOUS Vintage complaints.

Not all Vintage players are tourney players (as far as I know). They play with the Sol Ring and Strip Mine and so forth. (Not all Vintage players have power or proxies).

But limiting options by restricting Thirst For Knowledge gives me a sad face.  Same thing with Gifts Ungiven.

I can understand Merchant Scroll and Gush (free cards and mana? Broken!) but Thirst For Knowledge was fair. (as far as Vintage treats spells that cost 2U to play).

The unrestrictions open a lot of deckbuilding possibilities, and of course make my foil Chalices and foil Leylines that much better.

Could the Gilded Claw be the deck of the future?

I liked having Thirst For Knowledge being a 4 of option for Vintage and eagerly await the explanation article next week.

[oneofchaos]

I think the announcement is awesome.    I think that unrestricting Crop Rotation is probably wrong, but if Stax is the best deck, that can only be a good change from the current absurd Mana Drain dominance.   There is an upper limit to how good Stax can be, even with 4 Crop Rotations.

These are really smart changes, and I look forward to seeing the metagame going forward and analyzing them further in my article on Monday.  

I can understand strengthening stax, but why was the restriction of thirst warranted?  As Owen said, half of the lists are now playing a dark confidant/mystic remora shell. 

Because that's factually untrue.

Are you stating most drain decks still play thirst?

[bluemage55]

The DCI is really annoying me lately.  In 2008 we're in the middle of a golden age of deck diversity when a R/G Beatz deck won a Waterbury, and then the DCI slaps us by restricting every playable blue 4x except TfK.  And now just when we didn't think Vintage could be any less enjoyable, they go and make the deck that comprises most of the metagame more luck-based.

The restriction of Thirst for Knowledge is just proof that the people who decide the banned and restricted list know nothing about vintage.

Or, like I said last June, the people who decide have WotC's monetary interests at heart.  The fewer playable commons and uncommons in Vintage, the better for WotC.

[Smmenen]

I think the announcement is awesome.    I think that unrestricting Crop Rotation is probably wrong, but if Stax is the best deck, that can only be a good change from the current absurd Mana Drain dominance.   There is an upper limit to how good Stax can be, even with 4 Crop Rotations.

These are really smart changes, and I look forward to seeing the metagame going forward and analyzing them further in my article on Monday.  

I can understand strengthening stax, but why was the restriction of thirst warranted?  As Owen said, half of the lists are now playing a dark confidant/mystic remora shell. 

Because that's factually untrue.

Are you stating most drain decks still play thirst?

Isn't that obvious?  It's empirically true.  

[oneofchaos]

I think the announcement is awesome.    I think that unrestricting Crop Rotation is probably wrong, but if Stax is the best deck, that can only be a good change from the current absurd Mana Drain dominance.   There is an upper limit to how good Stax can be, even with 4 Crop Rotations.

These are really smart changes, and I look forward to seeing the metagame going forward and analyzing them further in my article on Monday.  

I can understand strengthening stax, but why was the restriction of thirst warranted?  As Owen said, half of the lists are now playing a dark confidant/mystic remora shell. 

Because that's factually untrue.

Are you stating most drain decks still play thirst?

Isn't that obvious?  It's empirically true.  

Of course it's obvious it is still being used.  However, there is certainly a rise in dark confidant/mystic remora draw engines.  I think your just forcing your average tezzeret player to play the latter deck.

[pocky]

Restricting TfK is a joke. Unrestricting crop rotation is a joke.

I stopped playing Vintage long ago because of all these lame ass changes (Ponder??? Really?), but never sold my cards (now is the time?). Legacy has far more deck options, and the games are interactive. Getting rid of TfK pretty much eliminates slaver. One less option to tinker with.

Mana drain is not a problem. The problem is Time Vault.

They should just restrict all blue draw cards.

I think I know who asked for this restriction, and he shall remain nameless. If you know who you are, stop meddling in Legacy! It is fine as it is!!

[Tha Gunslinga]

Are you stating most drain decks still play thirst?

Most Drain decks play Thirst.  This Remora/Confidant thing is fringe at best.

[oneofchaos]

Restricting TfK is a joke. Unrestricting crop rotation is a joke.

I stopped playing Vintage long ago because of all these lame ass changes (Ponder??? Really?), but never sold my cards (now is the time?). Legacy has far more deck options, and the games are interactive. Getting rid of TfK pretty much eliminates slaver. One less option to tinker with.

Mana drain is not a problem. The problem is Time Vault.

They should just restrict all blue draw cards.

I think I know who asked for this restriction, and he shall remain nameless. If you know who you are, stop meddling in Legacy! It is fine as it is!!

I don't see a sensible way in dealing with time vault.  You cannot outright ban it, as Yawgmoth's Will has been winning games left and right for years and cries to ban it have existed for all those years.  It was never banned.  You can't just ban time vault because it wins games.  You also cannot re-errata it, as we spent a few years removing the power level errata it once had on it.  The vintage community would look like a bigger group of hypocrites than WOTC, claiming they wanted a card fixed, but then changing their minds and saying it was too good.  Getting rid of TFK probably is bound to change a few things on a minor level (yea slaver is beyond dead, but if anything it wasn't more alive than life support).  I don't know what the best fix for the format is, but I can assure you it is pretty bad at luring new people into vintage.  Considering a bunch of people are quiting (or considering quiting) due to rule changes, i was hoping for a peaceful b/r list update.

edit->

Are you stating most drain decks still play thirst?

Most Drain decks play Thirst.  This Remora/Confidant thing is fringe at best.

I've been flipping through lists and I think I had a higher projected top 8 total of dark confidant/mystic remora decks than there actually was.  I definatly underestimated TFK is recent lists, as it is everywhere as usual.

[Smmenen]

And Tez decks that run D. Confidant or Remora typically run Thirst as well.  Take a look at the Philly top 8.  Paul M ran Confidant and 3 Thirst and the guy in the bottom half of the top 8 ran Remora and Thrist.  

[Stormanimagus]

I think people are getting too jostled up by this announcement. Vintage is a format with a Restricted List and it has been for some time. Part of the interesting thing about the format is seeing how new cards that are printed in each expansion interact with the restricted list. Sometimes they force cards into restriction (I think Burning Wish ultimately sealed the fate of LED), sometimes they ARE the cards that are restricted (Trinisphere) and sometimes they allow for the unrestriction of a card because they help to nullify the strategy that made them broken (I can't cite an example of this off the top of my head, but I think Mystic Remora ought to give Wizards some impetus to unrestrict Storm's Toys {BS, and Ponder back would be much appreciated}). I think that part of the awesome nature of Vintage is that players are forced to design around the restricted list and it is in flux 4 times a year (maximum). The metagame shifts to accommodate the changes and the format reshapes itself like tectonic plates shifting and creating new continents. The changes can be slow, but I think it is always more interesting to see new decks being designed than the same old "one-trick-pony" decks dominating the scene. I think that unrestricting any tutor can be dangerous and they've unrestricted 3 so I'm certain there is now great possibility for new decks and revamped older ones.

I think people need to see these changes merely as possibility. Vintage players are far too stuck in their ways and they become grumpy when their format is messed with at all. Do I need to remind you that Standard Changes once every 3-4 months ALL THE TIME?! Stop bitching about the changes and start imagining decks that could abuse the new 4-ofs available.

I'm thinking that Crop Rotation could also be used effectively in some sort of Storm-based Academy deck. Imagine a version of Turn-One-Tendrils with 4x Crop Rotation. I can see that going places. I like that these changes help to bolster Ichorid and Shops. I play neither, but it'll be nice to have a more formidable opponent in those two match-ups as I'm sick of facing drain deck after drain deck.

[Tha Gunslinga]

As I said, Thirst has been dominating the meta off and on since it was printed in 2003.  The reason people don't see it as broken is the same reason so many people were shocked by Brainstorm's restriction--it's everywhere already; Thirst is like the wallpaper of Vintage.  Decks I have played with Thirst:  Painter, ICBM Oath.  Decks I have seen played with Thirst for Knowledge:

TPS
Stax
Control Slaver
ICBM Oath
Painter
Gifts
Tezzeret


It's a solid draw engine.  Broken?  Maybe.  But worthy of restriction?  Definitely.  This is the same community that was shocked and appalled by EVERY restriction that I can remember.  You people wanted Time Vault de-errata'd.  Now you're suffering the consequences of a card that cannot be removed from Vintage.  Just as Yawgmoth's Will's presence forces other cards to be restricted, Time Vault does as well.

[Troy_Costisick]

EDIT: This is probably the shortest restricted list, since, like Antiquities.

Well, there's still a lot of room to make it shorter.

Mono Black Dragon as a budget deck seems doable with 4x entomb since land, rit, entomb + animate is pretty easy to do. Add in Duress, Unmask, thoughtseize, tutors, etc.

What's the win condition, though?

These are really smart changes, and I look forward to seeing the metagame going forward and analyzing them further in my article on Monday. 

I agree 100%

[Darkenslight]

wow i cant believe they just nailed another blue draw engine. wtf? this is ridiculous. why am i even playing now.

Testing that crazy GWr Shop build you always wanted to do? 

On a more serious note, this detinitely means that new udeas will need to be brought to the table.  And as for the fear that Vintage isn't looked at?  I doubt that, but I understand where that fear comes from.

[LotusHead]

I would definately rather see 4 cards unrestricted, and Thirst For Knowledge Restricted 3 months down the line than what is happening now.

Then we could see what the metagame turns into first.  Again, waiting for explanation (I pray that it's more than 5 lines long)

[policehq]

I think we gained a lot more ground than we lost with this, and at least it's exciting.

Crop Rotation and Dryad Arbor are really interesting in Ichorid. Crop Rotation sacrificing Dryad Arbor, remove their Bridges, fetch Strip Mine, nuke Bazaar.

I've always been more excited about the potential in Ichorid than the potential for Strip Mine with 4x Crop Rotation, though obviously they aren't mutually exclusive.

[tito del monte]

Even if the restriction of Thirst helps the current metagame, it seems to point to a pretty bleak future where any good blue draw is going to end up restricted - either that or they won't bother printing any. It just seems a bit of tacit admission by Wizards that blue is and always will be the best colour, and that they haven't got the design nous to markedly improve the weakest colours (some kind of white engine please!), so will simply keep on restricting whatever happens to be the most efficient blue draw at the time.

It's good to see unrestrictions of course - I hope that opens up some new strategies. But overall, on top of the rules changes, Wizards have left me pretty pensive recently..

[lilmidget]

Then we could see what the metagame turns into first.  Again, waiting for explanation (I pray that it's more than 5 lines long)

5 lines might be an upgrade from what we've been getting.

I agree 100% with what Stormanimagus is saying. Vintage players are too stuck in their ways. Yes, losing thirst changes a lot, but so did brainstorm, and people got through that. Instead of complaining about every card that gets restricted and every card that should not have been unrestricted, people should be thinking about the endless new possibilities that have arisen.  

[zeus-online]

I'm not even sure if crop rotation stacks will turn out to be playable...Sure it's a tutor for strip mine, but it limits chalice of the void, it sucks if crop rotation gets countered and it requires a 5-color build (or mono green, green/red).

As for entomb, well for a "speed dragon" build it could be usefull....But honestly, is that any better then belcher.dec or ANT?

E. tutor might spawn a B/W/U combo list of some sort, but i'm not worried.

Grim monolith will probably....do nothing.

Thirst restricted....Urh, that's a bit of a pill to swallow. Guess we're stuck with intu/AK as the default instant card-draw engine...or meditate....or skeletal scrying. Or just slap every restricted card-drawer into a deck and hope it works? (ponder, brainstorm, ancestral, fact, thirst, gifts, gush, frantic search, thats 8 )

EDIT: On another note, graveyard hate is now the nutz...Mana ichorid gains 4 crop rotations, strip mine.dec might be comming, and intu/AK gets hosed by Yard hate. Skeletal scrying can also be hated with leylines.

[ArsenicDrone]

Ouch. I'm often a little surprised at the precise contents of the B/R announcement, but this one actually hurts. I can't even think of what I'm going to play now. Almost every deck I've built for the last few years has had 4 Thirsts. Perhaps that's some evidence that it's a little too good, and it was working out well for me, but I wasn't playing the consensus top decks.

I'm not positive about this, but I think Thirst was the last unrestricted way to reliably draw more cards than you spent, at instant speed, for 3 mana or less (without losing a turn or giving the opponent a card, heh). I guess the next best thing is AK. It seems to me that in a powerful format like Type 1, at least one such unrestricted card should be available to you, if your deck wants it. I find a format more fun when the control decks are not all about nickel-and-diming the opponent until they drop the win.

I think my Welders are crying.

[Son of Serra]

So, I'd like to make a few meta-game predictions:

1. Mana Drain decks will start to play Mystic Remoras and Dark Confidants. A few will dabble in AK/Intuition but find it inferior.
2. 5-color Stax with Enlightened Tutors for Trinisphere and Crop Rotations for Strip Mine will see more play. It will become over-hyped. Even though two of the restricted cards most hated in Vintage get better, Stax is still fairly easy to disrupt with enough sideboard hate.
3. Ichorid decks will experiment with crop rotation but discover it is too easiy to disrupt.
4. Worldgorger Dragon will get a lot of attention but not perform well in tournaments as people increase graveyard hate maindeck to disrupt 5-color Stax and Ichorid.
5. Parfait will quietly produce results and be a contender shortly after Silence gets printed in M10

My guess is that Parfait will be the big winner after July 1. It has as much access to Trinisphere as Stax and it's disruption package will be harder to stop with one card (like Hurkyl's Recall).

[vassago]

it sucks if crop rotation gets countered

This is what makes me think that crop rotation being unrestricted will not be that big of a deal.  Another question I have in my mind is will anyone really play more than two?  I sincerely think that the third or fourth copy of this card in any deck could easily be replaced by something more effective, or more worthy of the mana investment.  Also, of the three relevant unrestrictions, doesnt it seem like chalice of the void at one seems like more of a solid play now?  I think these changes are interesting, regardless of how I feel about TFK.  I actuallly do not care about entomb. Awesome that it creates more budget decks like reanimator, or makes dragon more playable, but I doubt it will have any real impact due to the amount of graveyard hate already in EVERY sideboard.   Enlightened tutor is kind of cool, but is inherently limited to very few decks if it were to be more than a one of.  So i guess it should have been off the list a long time ago?  I am curious to see what decks rise out of this, but after much thought (I have been brooding over this for a few hours), I acctually think that these changes are not as big as we are making them out to be.   I dare say for the better, especially since a lot of people of been complaining about the dominance of a certain blue based deck.  Even I, an avid blue player, thought that something should change about the meta to make things more diverse.  Honestly, I do not know if these changes help to obtain that goal, but cannot wait to see what some of the other players come up with. 

[Justin]

I think the announcement is awesome.    I think that unrestricting Crop Rotation is probably wrong, but if Stax is the best deck, that can only be a good change from the current absurd Mana Drain dominance.   There is an upper limit to how good Stax can be, even with 4 Crop Rotations.

These are really smart changes, and I look forward to seeing the metagame going forward and analyzing them further in my article on Monday. 

Thirst decks have been dominant off and on since it was printed.  This is definitely warranted.  Crop Rotation will not ruin Vintage.

Thank you guys for your measured responses. Seriously, its difficult to read post after post of "WTF?!1" at WOTC's announcements, no matter what they are. Especially after playing for...wow, 15 years now lol. Im old.

[Wagner]

This has strangely not been addressed yet.

Was I the only one would thought that Burning Wish would come out the list? With combo already slowly down without Brainstorm and Ponder, and the new function on Burning Wish that makes it even less playable, I didn't see any reason why it should stay restricted.

[The Wolf]

My play group was starting to talk about burning wish decks already.  Guess those are going to be shelved until sometime soon.

As far as these changes go, I give a thumbs up.  The reason vintage stays interesting is the restricting and unrestricting that wizards does. This will lead to some new decks and some comebacks of old ones. 

I still think drain is way overpowered, but I'm still playing them...

[Diakonov]

This has strangely not been addressed yet.

Was I the only one would thought that Burning Wish would come out the list? With combo already slowly down without Brainstorm and Ponder, and the new function on Burning Wish that makes it even less playable, I didn't see any reason why it should stay restricted.

I was about to write the same thing.  My guess is that if they had spent more time thinking about it, they might have also unrestricted Burning Wish.

[zeus-online]

You can't ask for everything at once They're doing a good job of cleaning up the restrict list.

I'd say that burning wish is about the only thing left that will have limited to no impact if unrestricted. That's amazing.

[RichardD]

This has strangely not been addressed yet.

Was I the only one would thought that Burning Wish would come out the list? With combo already slowly down without Brainstorm and Ponder, and the new function on Burning Wish that makes it even less playable, I didn't see any reason why it should stay restricted.

I don't thinkk they'll unrestrict it untill the M10 rules are in effect.

[Troy_Costisick]

This has strangely not been addressed yet.

Was I the only one would thought that Burning Wish would come out the list? With combo already slowly down without Brainstorm and Ponder, and the new function on Burning Wish that makes it even less playable, I didn't see any reason why it should stay restricted.

I don't thinkk they'll unrestrict it untill the M10 rules are in effect.

That's like, 3 and half weeks from now.  How bad could it get in the mean time?

[zeus-online]

And honestly even under the current rules burning wish is unlikely to do much. And for anyone who thinks playing will multiple times is hot, ask yourself, how often do you really need to do it more then once?

[T00L]

Obviously these changes were made because of the one universal thing that is on everyone's minds. This format needs more impulse! Seriously though I don't understand why people are trying to find a reasonable answer to the question "why was Thirst restricted?". I thought we were all on the same page that R&D doesn't test vintage. They approach the B&R changes with a guess and check sort of approach.