June 19th B+R Announcement!

[AmbivalentDuck]

I desperately hate saying this, but Sacred Ground may now be playable in Fish

1W, Enchantment,
Whenever a spell or ability an opponent controls causes a land to be put into your graveyard from play, return that card to play.

It completely shuts down Crucible-Strip, Smokestack, and Sundering Titan.  It also makes your (inevitable) Crucible-Strip strategy much better than theirs.

[Troy_Costisick]

I desperately hate saying this, but Sacred Ground may now be playable in Fish

1W, Enchantment,
Whenever a spell or ability an opponent controls causes a land to be put into your graveyard from play, return that card to play.

It completely shuts down Crucible-Strip, Smokestack, and Sundering Titan.  It also makes your (inevitable) Crucible-Strip strategy much better than theirs.

Teferi's Response is good too.

Peace.

-Troy

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

to a point. its not going to do you much good when they try to strip you agian.

[sundering jerk]

I'm not at all surprised. I don't really care about thirst other than the fact that I own foils.

The only thing that concerns me is the crop rotation.

Benifited:
Stax
Ichorid

Shafted:
Blue everything

I'm sure standstill/Remora will bore a whole lot more people and I'm sure stax is now in the lead if good players actually play it, and will keep storm in check.

I suggest we say F this and just make vintage officially highlander. Why not? It'd be fun.

[Isaac85]

To me personly I don't see the big deal with crop rot. Yes I do realize it grabs strip and can lock you out but we aleady have answers main deck. Bounce for blue h recall and if all else counter. Do you realize how many games are lost due to a countered crop. If you play crop i doubt you would be playing chalice cause now you got 8 potential 1 drops 8 potential 2 drops. Seems if people run this blue has more of a fighting chance. Also for those who are complaining about thirst its not that great. Three mana for a three cards pitching one uh its an artifact two if your out of luck. People who think this will change anything are crazy. Tez will still out perform every deck out there. Ichorid will lay in the weeds winning every now and then. Casual players will be playing crappy dragon entomb decks and staxx will be staxx always a contender.

[Sam101]

Also for those who are complaining about thirst its not that great. Three mana for a three cards pitching one uh its an artifact two if your out of luck. People who think this will change anything are crazy.

You are underestimating thirst for knowledge.  A lot.

[arctic79]

So a little bit of time to digest the new changes.  Overall a "meh".  It sucks thirst is gone but no use crying about it, it could have been worse.  They could have axed Tfk, Drain, and Remora in one shot like they did with MS, BS, gush, ponder.  They only worry is that next round will see Intuition go as it will more than likely become the next draw engine and god forbid vintage has a stable blue draw engine. 
Maybe if everyone plays Tidings for 6 months in every tourny in every deck they will restrict that as well.  It would be fun to see.

If strip-lock becomes big (maybe, doubtful) main deck needle, LotV, Relic, Tormod, root maze, will problably be the norm.....hmmm a hate deck that preys on most decks....hmmmm.....

[pierce]

At this point, they should officially restrict every blue card not named Mana Drain or Force of Will.

fuck! I need my 2nd fugative wizard in mai deckz! 

yeah, this logic is such slippery slope nonsense. Yet everytime they restrict a new blue card, I see this shit over and over again.

Islands are busted. They tend to create more Card Advantage on average than any other land type. Sine CA and winning games are often linked, any steps used to ensure that islands are kept in check I support.

[oneofchaos]

So a little bit of time to digest the new changes.  Overall a "meh".  It sucks thirst is gone but no use crying about it, it could have been worse.  They could have axed Tfk, Drain, and Remora in one shot like they did with MS, BS, gush, ponder.  They only worry is that next round will see Intuition go as it will more than likely become the next draw engine and god forbid vintage has a stable blue draw engine. 
Maybe if everyone plays Tidings for 6 months in every tourny in every deck they will restrict that as well.  It would be fun to see.

If strip-lock becomes big (maybe, doubtful) main deck needle, LotV, Relic, Tormod, root maze, will problably be the norm.....hmmm a hate deck that preys on most decks....hmmmm.....

I would say remora and intuition are safe.  They certainly aren't destroying much like thirst/gush once did.  Also remora is pretty damn bad against a field of aggro. Normal draw is not.

[T00L]

Also for those who are complaining about thirst its not that great. Three mana for a three cards pitching one uh its an artifact two if your out of luck. People who think this will change anything are crazy.

You are underestimating thirst for knowledge.  A lot.

You're overestimating thirst. A lot.

[M.Solymossy]

Also for those who are complaining about thirst its not that great. Three mana for a three cards pitching one uh its an artifact two if your out of luck. People who think this will change anything are crazy.

You are underestimating thirst for knowledge.  A lot.

You're overestimating thirst. A lot.

You're overestimating thirst. A lot.

[Ufactor]

I'm not at all surprised. I don't really care about thirst other than the fact that I own foils.

The only thing that concerns me is the crop rotation.

Benifited:
Stax
Ichorid

Shafted:
Blue everything

I'm sure standstill/Remora will bore a whole lot more people and I'm sure stax is now in the lead if good players actually play it, and will keep storm in check.

I suggest we say F this and just make vintage officially highlander. Why not? It'd be fun.

Yeah, I think someone did that already.  There was a series of highlander side events on the east coast every month for, like, a year.  It became very pointless because drain decks, shop, Ichorid, and Null Rod aggro all suck without their key cards.  Storm combo, however, still did awesome with only one Dark Ritual, two Duress, two Red Blast.



EDIT: Search for highlander tournament reports and decklists posted by Nomad, and you'll see what I mean.

[bluemage55]

OMG I'M FREAKING OUT LIKE LAST YEAR WHEN EVERYTHING TURNED OUT FINE!!!

So when you say "FINE", you're referring to Drain decks becoming the most dominant archetype ever in the history of modern Vintage, and in spite of the fact that last year's restrictions killed off several archetypes that could have helped fight it?  

Drain decks would be less of a powerhouse today if we had Tyrant Oath, GAT, Flash, and Fish in the mix.

[Dnine]

I would like to make a comment on the overall approach wizards has been taking over the last year or so for vintage.  I consider myself a casual vintage player in the fact that I don't get to play that often and when I do I always look for a deck that I will have fun playing as well as having a good chance to win.  I like fringe decks that are different from the standard "best" decks and do quite well with them.  A year or so ago I was playing mostly fish variants but wanted something with more combo power.  Flash was new at the time and I liked the fact that it used many cards never thought playable in type one.  It took a while and a far amount of money to do, but I eventually got playsets of flash, P. hulk, pacts, and the 1 of combo pieces.  Now I definitely agree that the deck was too powerful at the time and needed to be hit, but outright killing it was a bit much.  Packing away my now worthless cards and moving forward I turned to building painter decks for much the same reasons.  The deck wasn't nearly as powerful, but I enjoyed it and had some success with it for a while.  Now without thirst the deck is pretty much dead as well.  More useless cardboard now sits in my binder.

My point isn't to bitch about card values and money, more importantly it's about deck diversity.  In our attempts to make a "balanced" meta where you have drains, workshops, rituals, and bazaars doesn't mean much if that means you only have 4 viable decks.  I've just listed 2 decks as an example, but you don't have to look very hard to see many other casualties of this approach.  Slaver and grow decks can be added to the list as well not 2 mention the number of decks that got hit harder then drain did by the restriction of brainstorm.  It's obvious to me that restricting blue support cards isn't going to do much to lower the power of blue drain decks anymore.  I think we've reached the floor.  Instead of power creep we are doing the opposite and having power drain.  It's like dumbing down the textbooks so the stupid kid can read it.  Nobody wins when you do that.  The only alternative to me is to try to lift the power level of other decks up so we can stop restricting the options available inside the main shells.  Looking at the list I can see lots of cards that are dangerous and deserve to be on there, but also could probably be argued that a 6-12 month pass off the list would actually be healthy and fun for the format. 

It may be time to view the restricted list as more dynamic in nature then something set in stone.  Everyone agrees that by the time they re-restricted gush last year the engine had gotten out of control, but how long did it take to get to that point?  Was it really that bad to let the meta re-learn about it, see how it interacted with the new cards in the format, fine tune it, and try to adjust to it?  When the cycle slows and the format begins to get stale, return it to the list.  Vintage is a slow format in the fact that decks take time to develop, metas shift slowly.  Why not give cards second chances even if we know they eventually will need to be re-restricted? 

If that is what they are doing with unrestricting crop rotation then I say bravo!  I only hope they explain it that way on Friday.  As for thirst I feel it was a mistake and unnecessarily put another nail in the coffins of blue based welder decks and painter decks without really doing much to the drain decks it was targeting.   

[hitman]

Regarding Painter decks, while you do need to retain some form of card advantage, the depth you dig with Impulse for two mana is almost better in Painter than Thirst for Knowledge.  You could use Sensei's Divining Top to filter to cards you need at any given time if you play enough fetchlands, which are good against Strip Mine and Wasteland.  Painter decks aren't weak to Null Rod because you can just Red Blast it with a Painter out to get rid of it.  Red gives you a lot of cards to combat other blue decks, artifacts and creatures.  You shouldn't be hit very hard by this restriction.

However, I do agree with you that restricted Thirst for Knowledge is a mistake.  The problem is they need to print cards for the weaker archetypes, not restrict fair cards in the context of Vintage.  It would be easy to print cards that are good against blue decks and still be usable in more prominent formats.  Instead of being thoughtful and creative, they just restrict.  Mark Trogdon and I were talking about this on Sunday after the Meandeck Open.  Why can't Wizards print a 1R Enchantment that deals target player two damage everytime he/she draws a card beyond the card drawn for the turn?  They could make a fringe combo deck with that in standard and casual players would love that card.  While it's not broken or format warping, it gives Workshop players tools that they can use to combat troublesome matchups.  Instead of ignoring Vintage because it doesn't make them much money, they might think of ways to change that.  This bogus policy of "restrict this, restrict that and see what happens because I don't know what I'm doing" is getting old after only two announcements.  

On the bright side, they could have done a lot worse for the format like the last announcement.  Now there's just another card on the restricted list that doesn't belong.

[Wagner]

Why can't Wizards print a 1R Enchantment that deals target player two damage everytime he/she draws a card beyond the card drawn for the turn?

This would be about worse than Chains of Mephistopheles or Pyrostatic Pillar, both of which see very little play.

But I agree, they should print cards to solve the problem instead of restricting. Pridemage, Canonist, Bob and Goyf were all a step in the right direction, but we need more.

[Diakonov]

It may be time to view the restricted list as more dynamic in nature then something set in stone.  Everyone agrees that by the time they re-restricted gush last year the engine had gotten out of control, but how long did it take to get to that point?  Was it really that bad to let the meta re-learn about it, see how it interacted with the new cards in the format, fine tune it, and try to adjust to it?  When the cycle slows and the format begins to get stale, return it to the list.  Vintage is a slow format in the fact that decks take time to develop, metas shift slowly.  Why not give cards second chances even if we know they eventually will need to be re-restricted? 

I'm glad to see someone else point this out, because I agree with it very much.  We will never reach the "perfect restricted list."  I am almost always excited to see changes made to the restricted list, whether it be restrictions or unrestrictions.  It means opportunity for innovation, which is one of my favorite things about Magic.  In fact, last year's restrictions are what got me excited enough to jump back into the game.  It had nothing to do with whether or not I was fond of the previous version of Vintage; it was simply due to the fact that there was a huge opportunity to innovate and explore new ideas, or rekindle the old.  Now, it is unfortunate that it became somewhat stale so quickly, but here we are today with some brand new changes to digest.  I'm happy to see that the DCI isn't willing to let us get too comfortable.

Ultimately, I think it would be in our best interest if the DCI had the following policy: always try to unrestrict cards that appear to be weaker, and also choose a few powerful cards to restrict and unrestrict on an annual basis.  Keeping Vintage fresh is going to be a very important factor in the long term life of our format.  People who say, "I quit because of Brainstorm's restriction," are being ridiculous.  Part of the lifeblood of Magic is that it is ever-changing, and there aren't many other games that can really say that.  It's one of the few games that you see people coming back for after years of being away who have never lost that itch to directly plug their creativity into competition.  For Vintage, as the fraction of cards added to our pool in each cycle converges to zero, the flux of new ideas for decks comes from the fluctuations of legality.

[Implacable]

It may be time to view the restricted list as more dynamic in nature then something set in stone.  Everyone agrees that by the time they re-restricted gush last year the engine had gotten out of control, but how long did it take to get to that point?  Was it really that bad to let the meta re-learn about it, see how it interacted with the new cards in the format, fine tune it, and try to adjust to it?  When the cycle slows and the format begins to get stale, return it to the list.  Vintage is a slow format in the fact that decks take time to develop, metas shift slowly.  Why not give cards second chances even if we know they eventually will need to be re-restricted? 

I'm glad to see someone else point this out, because I agree with it very much.  We will never reach the "perfect restricted list."  I am almost always excited to see changes made to the restricted list, whether it be restrictions or unrestrictions.  It means opportunity for innovation, which is one of my favorite things about Magic.  In fact, last year's restrictions are what got me excited enough to jump back into the game.  It had nothing to do with whether or not I was fond of the previous version of Vintage; it was simply due to the fact that there was a huge opportunity to innovate and explore new ideas, or rekindle the old.  Now, it is unfortunate that it became somewhat stale so quickly, but here we are today with some brand new changes to digest.  I'm happy to see that the DCI isn't willing to let us get too comfortable.

Ultimately, I think it would be in our best interest if the DCI had the following policy: always try to unrestrict cards that appear to be weaker, and also choose a few powerful cards to restrict and unrestrict on an annual basis.  Keeping Vintage fresh is going to be a very important factor in the long term life of our format.  People who say, "I quit because of Brainstorm's restriction," are being ridiculous.  Part of the lifeblood of Magic is that it is ever-changing, and there aren't many other games that can really say that.  It's one of the few games that you see people coming back for after years of being away who have never lost that itch to directly plug their creativity into competition.  For Vintage, as the fraction of cards added to our pool in each cycle converges to zero, the flux of new ideas for decks comes from the fluctuations of legality.

You know, I like this conceit a lot.  In a sense, what you're saying is that there should be two 'Restricted lists': one of cards that can never, ever leave - e.g. Lotus, Will, etc. - and then a large group of cards, both restricted and unrestricted, that bounce on and off the list to create constant change.  Now, I don't mean to overstate your case; it's not as though, say, cards will be unrestricted just for the hell of it.  But say that every time or two a new list comes out, a couple of really good cards - Flash-level cards, say - came off, just to give them a shot.  I think that'd be great for maintaining interest in the format.

[Purple Hat]

It would be kind of like rotations in other formats.  I was thinking about proposing that they only make changes to the restricted list on an annual basis back when we were discussing changing the policy, but decided that was too risky.  A set of cards that were constantly in flux would be cool.

[Dnine]

Regarding Painter decks, while you do need to retain some form of card advantage, the depth you dig with Impulse for two mana is almost better in Painter than Thirst for Knowledge.  You could use Sensei's Divining Top to filter to cards you need at any given time if you play enough fetchlands, which are good against Strip Mine and Wasteland.  Painter decks aren't weak to Null Rod because you can just Red Blast it with a Painter out to get rid of it.  Red gives you a lot of cards to combat other blue decks, artifacts and creatures.  You shouldn't be hit very hard by this restriction.

For me thirst was important as a way to replace duplicant cards in your and with more usefull ones.  Painter's servent is such a key componant to the deck that you want to see it as early as possible, but if you run 4 you risk drawing multiples that are not nearly as useful as the first.  Same with Sensei's top and grindstone.  Thirst served 2 rolls almost like brainstorm does.  It helped you dig for your key cards and let you get use out of redundent ones.  If you run welders then you also get additional use out of thirst.  My point being the decks that got thrist restricted only used it becuase it was an instant that lets you see 3 cards.  They will be able to find replacements for thirst and really not even notice it's gone.  Meanwhile other decks that were struggling to find a nitch have been delt a more severe blow.  By trying to make a more diverse meta you've eliminated or severely weakened several deck options.  It doesn't make sense.   

[Smmenen]

It certainly does make sense.   These changes are intended to increase the diversity of the format by engine, as well as by archetype.  We will find out within a few months whether it had this intended effect.

It's difficult to see how they would not.   The real question will not be whether they have that effect, but the degree of effect.  

The June, 2008 restrictions were intended to have that effect, and they had precisely the opposite effect.  

[bluemage55]

The June, 2009 restrictions were intended to have that effect, and they had precisely the opposite effect. 

Err, you mean 2008?

[Smmenen]

The June, 2009 restrictions were intended to have that effect, and they had precisely the opposite effect. 

Err, you mean 2008?

Yeah. fixed

[Nehptis]

Going off the assumption that the Vintage metagames change slowly, I contest that there are 3 possibilities that led to the Restriction of Thirst with the intended effect being as Steve said:

These changes are intended to increase the diversity of the format by engine, as well as by archetype.  We will find out within a few months whether it had this intended effect.

1) As was alluded to in this thread, it's possible that every time one or more Blue draw engines or single cards are restricted the meta inevitably shifts to exploit the next best engine or single draw card.  So, if this is the case, then all we are seeing is TFK rising to the top to replace Brainstorm, Ponder, etc. and as a result TFK has now been axed.  This could imply that the next best engine or card willl eventually be exploited and possibly restricted.  A Vintage cycle it seems!

2) Alternatively, what could have occured was that the power level errata change to Time Vault could have pushed a card like TFK over the edge in terms of it's own draw "power" as viewed by the DCI.  This could imply that extreme caution should be issued when removing errata as it seems to impact other cards to the point of possible restriction.

3) Lastly, we could have experienced a combination of both effects.

[God_Campbell]

1) As was alluded to in this thread, it's possible that every time one or more Blue draw engines or single cards are restricted the meta inevitably shifts to exploit the next best engine or single draw card.  So, if this is the case, then all we are seeing is TFK rising to the top to replace Brainstorm, Ponder, etc. and as a result TFK has now been axed.  This could imply that the next best engine or card willl eventually be exploited and possibly restricted.  A Vintage cycle it seems!

2) Alternatively, what could have occured was that the power level errata change to Time Vault could have pushed a card like TFK over the edge in terms of it's own draw "power" as viewed by the DCI.  This could imply that extreme caution should be issued when removing errata as it seems to impact other cards to the point of possible restriction.

3) Lastly, we could have experienced a combination of both effects.

I definitely believe, that TFK was a solid card, it was used to much success, but before timevault was changed, and Tezz was printed, it was just not AS used. After the printing, players just all gravitated towards Tezz over slaver/bomberman/other drain decks, and in doing so caused other draw engines to fall by the wayside as Tezz was played to such a high degree that it had reached it's tipping point.

[Akuma]

I definitely believe, that TFK was a solid card, it was used to much success, but before timevault was changed, and Tezz was printed, it was just not AS used.

I don't think TfK rise in usage had anything to do with Time Vault or Tezzeret. It didn't magically get better, everything that WAS better was removed, so it became the go-to draw spell.

Nephtis said it best:

As was alluded to in this thread, it's possible that every time one or more Blue draw engines or single cards are restricted the meta inevitably shifts to exploit the next best engine or single draw card.  So, if this is the case, then all we are seeing is TFK rising to the top to replace Brainstorm, Ponder, etc. and as a result TFK has now been axed. This could imply that the next best engine or card willl eventually be exploited and possibly restricted. A Vintage cycle it seems!

After the June 2008 restrictions, I knew Thirst for Knowledge was next. I guess this is the "Lauer Cycle"... garbage  

Although I do believe this cycle is coming to an end. Most Tezz decks were already just a bunch of restricted cards. WotC can barely affect the deck through restrictions anymore. We will probably see more Remora/Confidant versions or maybe they will use Thoughtcast. No room for any real change though, more than 2/3 of the deck is already set in stone.

I'm glad that some people are optimistic about the cards that were unrestricted, hopefully they will make a difference. I personally doubt it though, Enlightened Tutor, Grim Monolith and Entomb are not really good cards to begin with, hopefully they will find their place. At the very least casual players can use them freely now, go Reanimator!

Crop Rotation is the only interesting card, but I don't see how it can have a profound impact. Most of the best performing Workshop decks this year have been Mono-brown or Red, maybe 5c Stax can finally benefit. But then we are left with the age old Worshop problem: 1cc spells vs. Chalice of the Void.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

That problem is pretty easily fixed with bazaar, a card you can now run as an 8* of. If you’re playing 5c stax I’d assume you'd pull the cotv's to the sb if you were going to go crop rotation crazy. As far as strip lock goes, it’s easily hated out by things like, needle, t-crypt, relic, extirpate, llotv (things people are already packing a lot of in the sb because of ichorid). So it probably won’t be very format warping.

[Lurker101]

I know not everyone's going to agree with me on this one but if they unrestricted all the not super broken restricted blue draw engines we would actually have alot more deck diversity as each engine would cater to several different decks. I know this is unrealistic but if they unrestricted Thirst, Fact, Ponder, Gush, and Frantic Search all at the same time (there are a few other cards that come off too but I'm not going into it) we would have several different options and new decks would surely develop alongside the resurgence of old ones (like Frantic Search could help High Tide and Neo-Academy possibly become viable again). In my opinion Merchant Scroll, Gifts and Brainstorm do belong on the list still. I know I'm not supposed to be talking about this in the open forum but the DCI's approach has just really been bothering me.
I'm also wondering what people think of the card Careful Consideration as a replacement for TfK in some decks.

[Phoenix888]

I'm saddened that with the changes to zones, such as battlefield and exile, that cards like Platinum Angel remain untouched.  To keep with the more immersive (and awesome) theme they got going, instead of reading like this:

Flying
You can't lose the game and your opponents can't win the game.

It should be this:

Flying
You can't lose the battle and your opponents can't win the battle.

Or:

Flying
You can't lose the war and your opponents can't win the war.