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Author Topic: [Deck] Hermit Blaster!!!  (Read 28066 times)
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« Reply #60 on: June 24, 2009, 10:27:44 am »

Pact should be Lotus Petal.
This will give you infinite green mana.
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« Reply #61 on: June 24, 2009, 11:04:04 am »

Well regardless your doomsday "stack" doesn't work because once you cast merchant scroll, you have to shuffle your remaining cards which means you dont necessarily draw what you need.

You're completely right. Thank you for pointing that out, I got careless in not remembering the shuffle effect.  Previous post updated.  I'll still haven't given up hope yet, there has to be some pile out there.

A stack that actually works is:
Ancestral
Black lotus
Ponder
Lotus Petal
Tendrils

Remember that with wheel in play whenever you cast anything it just goes to the bottom of your library, I dont even think you need tendrils here, The tendrils could be Shock and it doesn't matter as this stack gives you infinite storm/mana.

Why not time walk then to save a slot, just take infinite turns and beat with hermit? 

Still though, wheel is very cool, but since it is reliant already on the druid activation, isn't removal just better?  Like why go to all this trouble with wheel when you can just echoing truth their leyline or whatever
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« Reply #62 on: June 24, 2009, 11:34:44 am »

Well regardless your doomsday "stack" doesn't work because once you cast merchant scroll, you have to shuffle your remaining cards which means you dont necessarily draw what you need.

You're completely right. Thank you for pointing that out, I got careless in not remembering the shuffle effect.  Previous post updated.  I'll still haven't given up hope yet, there has to be some pile out there.

A stack that actually works is:
Ancestral
Black lotus
Ponder
Lotus Petal
Tendrils

Remember that with wheel in play whenever you cast anything it just goes to the bottom of your library, I dont even think you need tendrils here, The tendrils could be Shock and it doesn't matter as this stack gives you infinite storm/mana.

Why not time walk then to save a slot, just take infinite turns and beat with hermit?  

Still though, wheel is very cool, but since it is reliant already on the druid activation, isn't removal just better?  Like why go to all this trouble with wheel when you can just echoing truth their leyline or whatever

I agree, I think if we're going to look at a sideboard option that gets around yard hate we should really be looking at maindecking Null Rods (one of the strengths of this type of combo deck IMO) and adding creatures out of the board so you could turn into a reasonable fish deck when facing heavy hate.


did you concider elvish spirit guides instead of some of the offcolor moxen?  it would make the deck better under nullrod or against nonbasic hate like magus of the moon, but obviously decreasing your perminant mana sources could be an issue.
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« Reply #63 on: June 24, 2009, 12:52:01 pm »

More importantly, why are we derailing this thread with terrible ideas that are way above and beyond what you need to do with this deck to win?
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« Reply #64 on: June 24, 2009, 02:20:07 pm »

Quote
You don't, I'm saying the opposite, sorry if Im not being clear. If your opponent has leyline you dont even need doomsday. The interaction between Wheel and Leyline is such that if you activate hermit while you have wheel and they have leyline you can stack your deck any way you like, and rfg(*cough* I mean exile) any cards you dont want in it.
I know, I was assuming you stacking the deck lets run trough your suggested piles. Maybe that will clarify my point:

Quote
1)Against Leyline:
Ancestral
Black Lotus
Ponder
Lotus Petal
Tendrils
Assuming you haven't done anything but activated Druid this turn this would give you 5 storm (depending on what's 2 cards deeper with ponder showing you tendrils and 2 blanks) this is not a win. Rather if you doomsday (removing the rest of your deck) and still assume Wheel is in play you can basically create arbitrarily large amounts of mana and storm and Tendrils FTW. Sure against a deck running Null rod you still have to deal with that but i'm just saying it has potential.

Quote
2) No Leyline, 1 Free colorless mana in addition to the U for ancestral:
Ancestral
Black Lotus
Time Vault
Voltaic Key
-------------optional-----------
Tinker
Mox
Deck (including DSC)
This pile does indeed win, you need lots of components to fit (ancestral must stick, and you need 1U up etc) I think there are better ways to utilize winning now (including the pile I mentioned before with Doomsdaying your deck away)


Quote
3) No Leyline, No extra mana besides the U, At least 1 Card in hand:
Ancestral
Black Lotus
Brainstorm
Mana Vault (or Mana Crypt)
Voltaic Key
Time Vault
Tinker or a bounce spell (so you dont die to crypt/mana vault)
Same as the former pile. including it has even more components you need to come together.

I don't think this deck wants to run TV / Key, because when you look at it you're already almost invulnerable to null rod. Adding TV/Key makes you very vulnerable. My current testing shows there are better ways to abuse Wheel and just plain win on the spot. Although it is to limited and lacking to actually posts some results at this time I'll sure do so in the very near future. This deck has intrigued me a lot.   
Firstly ancestral needs to stick for any pile to work. And The requirement of 1 additional Mana OR 1 additional card in hand is pretty reasonable.

These are all SB plans, you don't have to run tv/key main, or even wheel main. I don't necessarily Think that doomsday belongs in the deck(you are already running a significant amount of green to support druid).
Hopefully you use the sutured goul to kill game 1, and your opponent thinks "Oh i need GY hate to beat this, his combo is cold to leyline"  at which point he sides in leylines and crypts, and you side in Wheels + Vault/Key. if your opponent DID have null rods or whatever he likely sides him out for G2 if you demonstrated your combo g1.

The strength of this as a SB plan is that the angle of attack is completely different (even though they both use hermit druid)
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« Reply #65 on: June 24, 2009, 02:34:09 pm »

In the initial development of the deck, we discussed Null Rods in the main, to hose Vault + Key and shut off graveyard hate (relic/crypt) post board.  Dave, did you end up removing them from the list when you last played the deck?

I didn't really read all of the Wheel of sun and moon shennanigans, but I'll have to side with Dave by asking why would you run all that crap and dilute the sideboard when all you need is a couple of bounce spells?  Hell, Seal of Primordium is better here than an overly complicated secondary win condition.  The deck is supposed to win fast, not play around the potential presence of phantom leylines with subpar cards that have awkward casting costs.
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« Reply #66 on: June 24, 2009, 02:40:38 pm »

The strength of this as a SB plan is that the angle of attack is completely different (even though they both use hermit druid)

QFT.  Without changing gameplans, we face the same fate that Ichroid does on games 2 and 3 since we are just as susceptible to GY hate.  With the large number of combo pieces this deck has for its primary kill, I don't see how we can make room for bounce and counters to win the same way without severely crippling the deck.  If Ichorid had the ability to transform to a completely different deck on games 2 and 3, believe me, it would.  Thanks to Wheel, we *do* have that luxury.  

I must say, I don't think there has ever been a sideboard plan which not only negates the affect of your opponents trump card (Leyline in this case), but rather turns it into an advantage for us!  The interaction of choosing which replacement effect to apply first (leyline or wheel) to leave only the cards we want is very clever.  
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« Reply #67 on: June 24, 2009, 03:50:25 pm »

The strength of this as a SB plan is that the angle of attack is completely different (even though they both use hermit druid)

QFT.  Without changing gameplans, we face the same fate that Ichroid does on games 2 and 3 since we are just as susceptible to GY hate.  With the large number of combo pieces this deck has for its primary kill, I don't see how we can make room for bounce and counters to win the same way without severely crippling the deck.  If Ichorid had the ability to transform to a completely different deck on games 2 and 3, believe me, it would.  Thanks to Wheel, we *do* have that luxury.  

I must say, I don't think there has ever been a sideboard plan which not only negates the affect of your opponents trump card (Leyline in this case), but rather turns it into an advantage for us!  The interaction of choosing which replacement effect to apply first (leyline or wheel) to leave only the cards we want is very clever.  

I figured out a stack that works without vault/key and just wheel + druid wihout an enemy leyline


Ancestral
Lotus Petal
Black Lotus
Demonic Consultation
-------------------
REST of DECK
-------------------
Meditate
Street Wraith
Tendrils

heres how it works:

Play Ancestral(goes to bottom)
Play Petal, Sac petal for B Goes to bottom)
Play Lotus (storm is 3)
Use B to consult for Meditate, rfging your library (except for meditate, wraith, tendrils, ancestrall, petal, consult) storm 4
Sac lotus for UUU
Play mediate drawing wraith tendrils ancestral petal (storm 5)
play petal (sotrm 6)
sac petal for U
Play ancestral (storm 7) draw consult lotus, meditate (library is now petal, ancestral)
Play Lotus (storm 8)
cycle street wraith, drawing petal
play petal (storm 9)
Sac petal and lotus to tendrils for exactly 20

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« Reply #68 on: June 24, 2009, 05:49:32 pm »

Use B to consult for Meditate, rfging your library (except for meditate, wraith, tendrils, ancestrall, petal, consult) storm 4

Excellent idea with Demonic Consultation to remove the chaff.  I found a pile of the same size that creates infinite storm.  The pile is:

Ancestral
Black Lotus
Lotus Petal
Demonic Consultation
======
Deck
======
Peer Through Depths
Peer Through Depths
Tendrils

The loop is a bit lengthy (but not hard) so rather than post a mile-long thread, take a look here: http://pastebin.com/mbaadb19
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« Reply #69 on: June 24, 2009, 06:48:01 pm »

I just found this thread and started reading, WOW.
Wicked cool idea, and Hermit is easier to acquire than Oaths too...

But then as I continued reading the thread got derailed into what looks like a Ddaay with Wheel???
So far you guys have added Meditate, 2x Peer through depths, tendrils and several wheel of sun and moon.
All it seems is that you are trying to avoid being destroyed by a SB Leyline, is this correct?

Why not just run Chain of Vapor or anything else that deals with Leyline, even better would be Seal as it deals
with Time Vault as well?

I just can not see the sense in running subpar cards in the board or main to do a neat trick because of a single SB card.

Also is it possible to have you PM me the list that you are using?

Not trying to sound negative, just trying to understand the reasoning.

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« Reply #70 on: June 24, 2009, 06:54:17 pm »

The strength of this as a SB plan is that the angle of attack is completely different (even though they both use hermit druid)

QFT.  Without changing gameplans, we face the same fate that Ichroid does on games 2 and 3 since we are just as susceptible to GY hate.  With the large number of combo pieces this deck has for its primary kill, I don't see how we can make room for bounce and counters to win the same way without severely crippling the deck.  If Ichorid had the ability to transform to a completely different deck on games 2 and 3, believe me, it would.  Thanks to Wheel, we *do* have that luxury.  

I must say, I don't think there has ever been a sideboard plan which not only negates the affect of your opponents trump card (Leyline in this case), but rather turns it into an advantage for us!  The interaction of choosing which replacement effect to apply first (leyline or wheel) to leave only the cards we want is very clever.  

But we don't have the same issue as ichorid because WE PLAY MANA.  this means you can play bounce spells without needing something silly to make it work.  In addition if you're all about the transformational sideboarding, you still have to convince me that wheel of the sun and moon+ random other crap is better than 4x goyf, some number of tombstalkers with null rods main.  This allows you to go to 5 or 9 or whatever, big fat men and just beat people up.  If you're gonna put in 4 wheel of the sun and moon and 3 other random cards, I think you'd just be better served to put in 4 goyfs and 2 or 3 stalkers.
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« Reply #71 on: June 24, 2009, 07:17:07 pm »

IWhy not just run Chain of Vapor or anything else that deals with Leyline, even better would be Seal as it deals
with Time Vault as well?

It is in my opinion that this deck does not have the room to keep the primary kill condition and go 1-for-1 with the amount of GY hate that will be brought in; at least not without severely slowing down the deck to the point of being irrelevant to our opponent. Conversely, each Wheel goes X for 1 where X is the number of GY hate cards they bring in, and they will bring in plenty.

Quote from: Purple Hat
you still have to convince me that wheel of the sun and moon+ random other crap is better than 4x goyf, some number of tombstalkers with null rods main.
That is a task for myself as well.  Now that we have what seems to be a pretty optimal win with Wheel (btw, one of the two Peer Through Depths can become a Bstorm or Ponder), its time to put it to the test.  But to answer the question, on paper it looks like speed.
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« Reply #72 on: June 24, 2009, 07:20:57 pm »

@Purple hat.
Well I'm not sure which strategy is correct having tested some stuff now. I'm also not conviced playing Goyf / Stalker (both suffer from GY hate) is correct. You're basically slowing down a lot when you get a Relic activation against you. Yes we have mana and Bounce and the tutors to find them unlike Ichorid which is basically relient on Bazaar to dig for those. But it's still pretty nice to be able to ignore all opposing hate (just saying it's nice). I also like the interaction druid has with Wheel it lends itself to really nutty plays rendering all yard hate useless and giving you a way to win by naturally carrying out your decks strategy although it's your plan B.
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« Reply #73 on: June 24, 2009, 07:38:53 pm »

It seems that the goyf plan is only a dog to relic, as their grave is intact. Why not run 3 rod,  1 terravore (instead of loe) main, and 4 goyf + 1 rod side. and if you really wanted to, stifle is an option, it can buy turns versus certain decks, kill fetches, and pop crypt and relic harmlessly.

plus, I think a ghoul made out of a mudslide and a couple jellyfish would be pretty cool-ish.
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« Reply #74 on: June 24, 2009, 08:48:38 pm »

Hitting tombstalker with Relic is rather difficult.  You don't have to pass priority before er....exiling....? things to reduce his cost.  if you're playing maindeck null rod it seems like a non issue anyway. 

Regardless of whether it's better is there a reason to use peer through depths instead of using strategic planning?
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« Reply #75 on: June 24, 2009, 09:15:20 pm »

I don't think relic is the card to worry about, leyline is. Goyf is unimpressive when you have no GY, and Tombstalker is laughable.

Edit: regarding null rod: I'm not a fan of it in a deck that is running full moxen, lotus, petal, and crypt. Rod is going to lead you to a number of really awkward hands (land, 2 moxes, null rod etc)  This is a combo deck, and devolving into a bad creature deck that's crutching on null rod isn't going to be very effective. Especally when those creatures are vulnerable to the exact same cards that the MD combo is vulnerable to (leyline, relic, tormods)

if the proposed Transformational SB plans are:
4 null rod
4 goyf
4 tombstalker

that seems a lot worse than:

3/4 Wheel
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Tendrils
1 peer Through Depths
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« Reply #76 on: June 24, 2009, 11:18:46 pm »

Good news, I've been playing around with the two Peer Through Depths slots and turns out if you swap both of those for a Brainstorm and a Ponder (in any order) you wind up with a Tendrils and Demonic Consultation in hand with BBBBU and 12 storm.  It's not infinite, but 26 damage aught to do the trick.  Technically, you could cast the Consultation for an additional storm but you make yourself susceptible to Stifle since you just exiled everything. 

As mentioned before, if you leave in a singleton Peer Through Depths and use Brainstorm for the other one, it *does* go infinite storm.  Is this card worth the added insurance? Probably not considering nobody plays Ancestor's Chosen anymore.

If you're willing to live with 12 (or 13 with Consultation) storm, you now only need to side in 4x Wheel, Demonic Consultation and Tendrils.  
« Last Edit: June 25, 2009, 01:49:28 am by SiegeX » Logged
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« Reply #77 on: June 25, 2009, 02:59:34 am »

I was thinking about the deck and i´ve found several things i consider interesting so i´m going:

First of all we have 2 win con so first match we are soooo fast that we can win easily.

For second and third mmatches with SDB i think we don´t need a "transformer deck" to win. In the side we can play krosan grip (leylines, cripts, ......) along with null rod i think is enough to win again.

Maindeck i think we can play wordly tutor (because our combo is a creature card) that is improved a lot with street wraith.

There are lot of posibilities of drawing any of the graveyard combo cards in opening hand (breath, sutured, lord, dread or even multiples moebas). I think we need an effective way to discard them. I´ve thought on :
Breaktrough, imp, tireless tribe, putrid imp, zombie infestation.......).

because new rules we´ll can reorder the grave as we wish, could be viable playing ashen ghul or something like that as another win condition? the deck has lot of creatures and reordering them in the grave let us to play every turn all ghuls we need to kill.

My thoughts. Any idea or suggestion?
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« Reply #78 on: June 25, 2009, 04:12:41 am »



because new rules we´ll can reorder the grave as we wish, could be viable playing ashen ghul or something like that as another win condition? the deck has lot of creatures and reordering them in the grave let us to play every turn all ghuls we need to kill.


That new rule only applies to formats without cards from urzas destiny(? not sure which set it was exactly) or older. Vintage still cares about gy order.
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« Reply #79 on: June 25, 2009, 08:46:48 am »

I don't think relic is the card to worry about, leyline is. Goyf is unimpressive when you have no GY, and Tombstalker is laughable.

Edit: regarding null rod: I'm not a fan of it in a deck that is running full moxen, lotus, petal, and crypt. Rod is going to lead you to a number of really awkward hands (land, 2 moxes, null rod etc)  This is a combo deck, and devolving into a bad creature deck that's crutching on null rod isn't going to be very effective. Especally when those creatures are vulnerable to the exact same cards that the MD combo is vulnerable to (leyline, relic, tormods)

if the proposed Transformational SB plans are:
4 null rod
4 goyf
4 tombstalker

that seems a lot worse than:

3/4 Wheel
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Tendrils
1 peer Through Depths

The other sideboard plan plays the Null Rods in the maindeck.  I completely disagree about leyline though.  If that was the problem I'd just play 4 bounce spells in my sideboard or Grips or seal of primordium, or....the list goes on.  Pithing needle....now there's a problem card.  Neither combo works with that in play.  Everyone will have needles in their board or access to needles.  So now we have a question of whether it's better to play creatures (goyf still works with leyline in play by the way...your opponent still has to play cards) or play bounce/distruction.  I think the second one is probably better, but IF I wanted to transform, I'd probably go with creatures because I could just avoid the whole problem all together.  Then again, you could just play orchards in the main and transform into oath as well...you'd be telegraphing the hell out of it because your opponent would get to look through your deck, but if you built a 5 color manabase you could sneak orchards in as lands 9-12 and it wouldn't look that strange.  Ghoul has trample so people probably wouldn't notice.

I think if you're not playing null rod in the deck you're probably doing it wrong.  Null Rod is one of the best cards in the format right now, even with acceleration turned off by your null rod you're probably gonna be fine.  You win the game for 1G, pass the turn.  Seems like that's not all that high of a mana threshold.  I think resistence to Rod is the best reason to play this deck over some other form of combo.
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« Reply #80 on: June 25, 2009, 05:20:48 pm »

In the initial development of the deck, we discussed Null Rods in the main, to hose Vault + Key and shut off graveyard hate (relic/crypt) post board.  Dave, did you end up removing them from the list when you last played the deck?

I didn't really read all of the Wheel of sun and moon shennanigans, but I'll have to side with Dave by asking why would you run all that crap and dilute the sideboard when all you need is a couple of bounce spells?  Hell, Seal of Primordium is better here than an overly complicated secondary win condition.  The deck is supposed to win fast, not play around the potential presence of phantom leylines with subpar cards that have awkward casting costs.

I simply removed them from the deck and relocated them to the sb.  MD you don't necessarily want to be dropping a 2 mana piece of disruption when your win condition also costs two mana.  I agree with you that wheel is incredibly cute, but cute does not win tournaments.

edit:  So A lot has been posted and I have been busy.  Later tonight I will answer each post, with a reasoning for my decision to cut certain cards, add cards, and a new decklist.
-Cheers
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« Reply #81 on: June 25, 2009, 07:22:31 pm »

Cute and winning tournaments are not necessarily mutually exclusive.  Now that we have narrowed the combo down to two external cards (sans wheel), having a fast combo kill that is completely indifferent to the hate that was just brought in against you, as well as the ability to reset next turn to do it all over again if you plan was foiled sounds pretty enticing to me.  I'm not saying it's for sure the best siding strategy, I just think you're doing yourself a disservice by writing it off as merely 'cute'; but time will tell.  In any case I look forward to your comments and deck list.
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« Reply #82 on: June 25, 2009, 08:24:27 pm »

Would 4 Demigod of Revenge be a good alternate kill to keep in the sideboard? I know we're trying to avoid graveyard hate but Goyf and Tombstalker are susceptible to yard hate as well.
Misread the card.
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« Reply #83 on: June 25, 2009, 09:36:41 pm »

I believe you have to actually play him to reanimate the others.
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« Reply #84 on: June 26, 2009, 12:03:30 am »

Cute and winning tournaments are not necessarily mutually exclusive.  Now that we have narrowed the combo down to two external cards (sans wheel), having a fast combo kill that is completely indifferent to the hate that was just brought in against you, as well as the ability to reset next turn to do it all over again if you plan was foiled sounds pretty enticing to me.  I'm not saying it's for sure the best siding strategy, I just think you're doing yourself a disservice by writing it off as merely 'cute'; but time will tell.  In any case I look forward to your comments and deck list.

but wouldn't bounce/krosan grip/etc.  be just as good and also useful against things that aren't leyline of the void?
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oneofchaos
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« Reply #85 on: June 26, 2009, 12:37:52 am »

Cute and winning tournaments are not necessarily mutually exclusive.  Now that we have narrowed the combo down to two external cards (sans wheel), having a fast combo kill that is completely indifferent to the hate that was just brought in against you, as well as the ability to reset next turn to do it all over again if you plan was foiled sounds pretty enticing to me.  I'm not saying it's for sure the best siding strategy, I just think you're doing yourself a disservice by writing it off as merely 'cute'; but time will tell.  In any case I look forward to your comments and deck list.

Puppies are cute.  Do the police use puppies to stop criminals?  No.

Why would you sb wheel when-

1)  Most of the grave hate currently is some combination of extirpate/yixlid jailer/tormod's crypt/relic of progenitus
2)  How often was Leyline sideboarded compared to the above hate?
3)  Why would you try to answer a very very narrow section of hate with an even more narrow card?
4)  Your transformational sideboard wins the game if your opponent is playing leyline.  Otherwise you lose the game by dilluting your deck.  Are you comfortable with those statistics? 
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Somebody tell Chapin how counterbalance works?

"Of all the major Vintage archetypes that exist and have existed for a significant period of time, Oath of Druids is basically the only won that has never won Vintage Championships and never will (the other being Dredge, which will never win either)." - Some guy who does not know vintage....
SiegeX
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« Reply #86 on: June 26, 2009, 12:47:50 am »

but wouldn't bounce/krosan grip/etc.  be just as good and also useful against things that aren't leyline of the void?

Who's to say we can't (or won't) use those too.  As you mentioned, Pithing Needle (and null rod) will be a problem for the Wheel kill so we need to be able to deal with those.  If we use Eastman's list on the first page as a reference, here are the cards we can side out:

4 Narcomoeba
1 Dread Return
1 Sutured Ghoul
1 Lord of Extinction
1 Dragon Breath
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Tinker
1 Darksteel Colossus

That's a total of 12.

Here are the cards we must side in

4 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Tendrils

That leaves 6 open slots for protection,destruction and bounce just for needle and null rod as any GY-hate card they lay down we can completely ignore.  If you were to keep the primary kill, you will neither get the luxury of that many open slots nor maintain the efficiency of the deck with the slots you do get.  Also, let us not forget that the primary kill also suffers greatly from a well time bounce spell just like Dragon.  We can write this off game 1 due to the surprise, but all bets are off games 2 and 3.  If you decide to keep the DSC kill as a backup, you just lost the two best SB slots you had.
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SiegeX
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« Reply #87 on: June 26, 2009, 01:09:01 am »

Puppies are cute.  Do the police use puppies to stop criminals?  No.
Not sure how to reply to this non-sequitur, so I won't.

1)  Most of the grave hate currently is some combination of extirpate/yixlid jailer/tormod's crypt/relic of progenitus
All of those must be dealt with before you can go off.  Not sure what you're getting at.

2)  How often was Leyline sideboarded compared to the above hate?
I don't have access to SSG's deck database, but I'm going to guess Leyline is not as uncommon as you are suggesting

3)  Why would you try to answer a very very narrow section of hate with an even more narrow card?
Because this very very narrow section of hate is very very effective against this deck's primary kill.

4)  Your transformational sideboard wins the game if your opponent is playing leyline. Otherwise you lose the game by dilluting your deck.
Not true.  With Wheel/Consultation/Tendrils we win the game with 12 (or 13) storm independent of an opposing leyline.  A leyline only allows us to go infinite
« Last Edit: June 26, 2009, 01:13:45 am by SiegeX » Logged
oneofchaos
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« Reply #88 on: June 26, 2009, 01:17:15 am »

You seem to like to play Doomsday style decks.  Perhaps you should play the deck called "Doomsday".  The problem with wheel you don't quite seem to understand, is it ONLY works in a very narrow situation.  That is like saying ancestral recall can make your opponent lose the game by decking him.  Yes, it is possible but it does not happen for the most part in competitive vintage.  Be realistic when you sideboard, your playing a graveyard based deck.  The best strategies you can possibly employ are good swift answers to any hate brought in against you OR a transformational sb.  Wheel is neither.

Sorry to keep you all waiting- (this is as of yesterday)

// Lands
    4  Polluted Delta
    2  Underground Sea
    2  Bayou
    2  Tropical Island
    2  Wooded Foothills
    1  Bloodstained Mire

// Creatures
    1 [ARB] Lord of Extinction
    4  Street Wraith
    4 [JGC] Hermit Druid
    4  Narcomoeba
    1  Sutured Ghoul
    1  Darksteel Colossus

// Spells
    1  Chain of Vapor
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Brainstorm
    2  Careful Study
    3  Thoughtseize
    1  Imperial Seal
    1  Dragon Breath
    1  Dread Return
    1  Ancestral Recall
    1  Ponder
    1  Time Walk
    1  Tinker
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    2  Cabal Therapy
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Sensei's Divining Top
    1  Mystical Tutor
    4  Strategic Planning
    1  Pact of Negation

// Sideboard
SB: 1  Thoughtseize
SB: 1  Slaughter Pact
SB: 2  Darkblast
SB: 1  Reverent Silence
SB: 1  Echoing Truth
SB: 1  Seal of Primordium
SB: 1  Inkwell Leviathan
SB: 3  Null Rod
SB: 4  Tarmogoyf

Changes:  I started out with 2 strategic plannings.  I added one.  I added another.  I want a fifth.  They are seriously awesome in the deck.  With 7/13 of the lands being fetchlands, your first turn you will draw 7 cards, fetch + play a mox.  With 52 cards left in your library you will look at the top 3 (leaving 49 cards unseen).  There is such a nice change you will find hermit druid.  That only increases when you find a street wraith in your opening hand and you fetch and strategic planning.  They are really simply that good.  Throwing narcomoebas into play is also just a delicious use for a filtering engine.  Thank Soly for the suggestion.

Careful study?  I like it, but I do not like it enough I should ever need more than one.  Hence,  I only play two.  Three may be the right number, but we are still working on it.

Pact of negation kind of hit me as an awesome idea for backup for the combo turn.  Sometimes your opponent can get around thoughtseize + cabal therapy and still have an answer to your sutured ghoul.  Not anymore.  I only play one because I can usually tutor it up the turn of me going off, as that is really the only time I want it.  

Decrease in the amount of lands.  I was seeing too much mana, but perhaps I should cut an off color mox and add the land back in?  Time will tell.  Just remember, do all your math for the manabase assuming a 56 card deck.

If more lands were to be added, they would be fetchlands.  The best answer to crucible+strip is fetchlands.  Untouchable mana is annoying for any shop player to have to deal with.  

I left a lot of my sideboard silver bullets intact, because I just love being able to have an out to every piece of hate.  Darkblast answers yixlid jailer, null rod can take care of relic/crypt, seal can nuke leyline/reverent can nuke leyline, and extra discard effects can eat extirpates up.  

I had cut Lord of extinction but then the problem became clear we only have twenty power worth of damage swinging in towards an opponent.  Now if you cannot kill an opponent that turn, you get another.  If your opponent has a DSC, they will take 9 dmg, then 9 dmg.  They will be alive at 2 life, and you will be decked.  Sad times.  I think it is safe to say lord is warranted, especially when you randomly hardcast him and win.  

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Somebody tell Chapin how counterbalance works?

"Of all the major Vintage archetypes that exist and have existed for a significant period of time, Oath of Druids is basically the only won that has never won Vintage Championships and never will (the other being Dredge, which will never win either)." - Some guy who does not know vintage....
SiegeX
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« Reply #89 on: June 26, 2009, 01:21:48 am »

Quote
The problem with wheel you don't quite seem to understand, is it ONLY works in a very narrow situation
Can you please inform us of which narrow situation you keep referring to? Because if it's that we must have a leyline out, you might want to re-read some of our posts.

Just to make it doubly clear with a cherry on top.  In no way shape or form does the Wheel strategy rely on our opponent doing something, least of which is him playing a leyline against us.  If, however, the unfortunate bastard does play a leyline, he just gave us the option to go infinite storm on him.  You don't have to go infinite, you can still take him out the same way you would if leyline were not in play.

P.S.  I've never shuffled up Doomsday, I just know a good strategy when I see one.  Even if you completely hate the Wheel sideboard strategy, I fail to understand how you can say it's not at the very least a transformational SB.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2009, 01:45:39 am by SiegeX » Logged
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