oneofchaos
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« Reply #30 on: June 23, 2009, 02:28:17 pm » |
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against hate that isn't leyline of the void, you could put 4 goyf, 4 tombstalker in your board. strat planning, careful study, wraiths and all the fetchlands should make casting the stalkers early for relatively cheap pretty doable.
I like it! I was also considering, should we try out pact of negation?
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Somebody tell Chapin how counterbalance works?
"Of all the major Vintage archetypes that exist and have existed for a significant period of time, Oath of Druids is basically the only won that has never won Vintage Championships and never will (the other being Dredge, which will never win either)." - Some guy who does not know vintage....
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the boogie man
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« Reply #31 on: June 23, 2009, 02:44:34 pm » |
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I think the best answer to the transformational sb is running rods in the main. It is not really protection, but it prevents decks from exploding in your face. it also slows a lot of deck down considerably, allowing you time to assemble your combo and whatnot. then, post sb, goyfs come in and beat face. these are helped by strategic planning-ed narcos and street wraith. null rod is protection post-side, though, since it turns off crypt and relic.
I also think that if you run enough blue cards for force, make it happen. force takes care of topdecked cards, and makes your opponent pay mana for what you countered, which probably buys you another turn.
If I ran this tomorrow, it would be something like:
4 force of will 3 null rod 2 thoughtseize 2 cabal therapy (11)
7 fetch 3 underground sea 2 bayou 2 tropical 5 mox 1 lotus 1 mana crypt (21)
4 hermit druid 4 narcomoeba 1 sutured 1 lord 1 dragons breath 1 dread return (12)
2 street wraith 3 strategic 2 careful study 1 vamp 1 mystical 1 ancestral 1 timewalk 1 demonic 1 brainstorm 1 ponder
2 tinker colossus
enough protection, a back-up win, and an even split between careful study and wraith, with a decent chance of seeing either. any ideas? I just think that fow is too good to leave out, as well as rod. if you are no hurt by it, why not kill a lot of strategies and run it?
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Unrestrict: Gush, Flash, Frantic search, fact or fiction (probably), and burning wish if it doesn't suck now.
this may be the last time you hear the boogie song.
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M.Solymossy
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« Reply #32 on: June 23, 2009, 03:13:49 pm » |
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I actually hate Tinker-Colossus. I think Im just going to run more cards dedicated to helping me combo.
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~Team Meandeck~
Vintage will continue to be awful until Time Vault is banned from existance.
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SiegeX
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« Reply #33 on: June 23, 2009, 03:39:52 pm » |
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I'm not a fan of the Tinker/DSC plan myself, I think game 1 should have those two slots dedicated to the combo.
Here are a couple of ideas for a transformational sideboard. If you get out a Wheel of Sun and Moon and activate Druid, you get to stack your deck anyway you like; basically an uber doomsday. Jotun Grunt has a similar effect in stacking your deck only slower and in a cumulative fashion, but he also beats face.
Holy crap. I just realized that Wheel of Sun and Moon beats Leyline of the Void. Since both the Leyline and the Wheel are trying to replace cards going to the graveyard, as the controller of the effected cards, I get to choose the order of the replacement!
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« Last Edit: June 23, 2009, 03:49:52 pm by SiegeX »
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oneofchaos
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« Reply #34 on: June 23, 2009, 03:54:05 pm » |
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I'm not a fan of the Tinker/DSC plan myself, I think game 1 should have those two slots dedicated to the combo.
Here are a couple of ideas for a transformational sideboard. If you get out a Wheel of Sun and Moon and activate Druid, you get to stack your deck anyway you like; basically an uber doomsday. Jotun Grunt has a similar effect in stacking your deck only slower and in a cumulative fashion, but he also beats face.
Holy crap. I just realized that Wheel of Sun and Moon beats Leyline of the Void. Since both the Leyline and the Wheel are trying to replace cards going to the graveyard, as the controller of the effected cards, I get to choose the order of the replacement!
That's why I play tinker-dsc. Why goof around and stack your deck when you can just win? Edit. I just realized why street wraith is awesome! I was holding LOE a few times after using a therapy. With only one therapy activation left during my combo turn, I needed to clear out my opponents force. I had enough creatures to remove and swing in for the win without using loe.
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« Last Edit: June 23, 2009, 04:06:56 pm by oneofchaos »
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Somebody tell Chapin how counterbalance works?
"Of all the major Vintage archetypes that exist and have existed for a significant period of time, Oath of Druids is basically the only won that has never won Vintage Championships and never will (the other being Dredge, which will never win either)." - Some guy who does not know vintage....
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SiegeX
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« Reply #35 on: June 23, 2009, 04:16:32 pm » |
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That's why I play tinker-dsc. Why goof around and stack your deck when you can just win?
The point was not to put Wheel of Sun and Moon in the mainboard, it comes in on games 2&3 when your opponent brings in the buku graveyard hate so you can't "just win." Wheel of Sun and Moon beats ALL graveyard hate at the same time transforming your deck into doomsday. Tinker/DSC is a viable backup kill game 1 if your primary gets hosed (although I think the slots are better dedicated to the combo), but I don't feel Tinker/DSC is enough to stand on its own to win the match.
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« Last Edit: June 23, 2009, 04:20:30 pm by SiegeX »
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oneofchaos
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« Reply #36 on: June 23, 2009, 04:18:45 pm » |
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Fair enough. I am thinking of taking out lord of extinction, because you play enough creatures to feed to sutured ghoul with street wraith + hermit + narco.
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Somebody tell Chapin how counterbalance works?
"Of all the major Vintage archetypes that exist and have existed for a significant period of time, Oath of Druids is basically the only won that has never won Vintage Championships and never will (the other being Dredge, which will never win either)." - Some guy who does not know vintage....
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Dnine
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« Reply #37 on: June 23, 2009, 04:29:32 pm » |
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but won't tarm be a 6/7 after druid activates? you have land, artifact, creature, instant, sorcery, and enchantment. Wouldn't having 2-4 goyfs be better then the lord of extinction and 1-3 other cards? Adding goyfs and maybe Bobs may even allow you to play around with a few chord of callings although they still may be too expensive.
2 goyfs+3 druids+4narcomebas = 19/21. Dragons breath bumps it to a 20/22 and that's with no other creatures in your deck. Add Bobs or leave in a few S. wraths and you get the point. Why have a dead card in your deck if you don't need it?
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Eastman
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« Reply #38 on: June 23, 2009, 04:33:21 pm » |
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That's why I play tinker-dsc. Why goof around and stack your deck when you can just win?
The point was not to put Wheel of Sun and Moon in the mainboard, it comes in on games 2&3 when your opponent brings in the buku graveyard hate so you can't "just win." Wheel of Sun and Moon beats ALL graveyard hate at the same time transforming your deck into doomsday. Tinker/DSC is a viable backup kill game 1 if your primary gets hosed (although I think the slots are better dedicated to the combo), but I don't feel Tinker/DSC is enough to stand on its own to win the match. So what's the idea with Wheel of Sun and Moon? Doomsday stacks using research/development aren't going to work anymore after exile and the RFG become different places, right? (I'll admit my total ignorance with doomsday). I could see the advantage of just making your deck and the order of it exactly what you want, even if you're going the aggro route you could side out the combo and leave in hermit druid so you can play with wheel of sun and moon. Correct me if I'm wrong, but won't tarm be a 6/7 after druid activates? you have land, artifact, creature, instant, sorcery, and enchantment. Wouldn't having 2-4 goyfs be better then the lord of extinction and 1-3 other cards? Adding goyfs and maybe Bobs may even allow you to play around with a few chord of callings although they still may be too expensive.
2 goyfs+3 druids+4narcomebas = 19/21. Dragons breath bumps it to a 20/22 and that's with no other creatures in your deck. Add Bobs or leave in a few S. wraths and you get the point. Why have a dead card in your deck if you don't need it?
First, tarm isn't a 6/7 because the enchantment (dragon breath) is going to leave the yard to attach to ghoul. Ghoul constantly checks p/t against the rfg, and goyfs in turn constantly check p/t against the yard, so once breath ceases to be in there he'll shrink by the number of goyfs. That doesn't change the fact that goyf is a viable option. With MD null rod, and goyf, you can play a pretty decent BUG fish game in addition to the combo. I had a teammate who had a lot of success with this approach, especially with the easier ability to turn into a real aggro strategy post board. But for me as a player, it just didn't fit my style, and so I was moving closer to a combo-focused approach that relies on finding ways to stop the hate and force the hermit. people talking about cutting dsc/tinker Also not a bad idea, but to soly I'd note that with only 3 Narcos, losing the extra turn that dsc gives you becomes even more risky. I'm not sure you really can have it both ways.
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« Last Edit: June 23, 2009, 04:38:41 pm by Eastman »
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oneofchaos
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« Reply #39 on: June 23, 2009, 04:42:05 pm » |
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Lord of extinction has won me games by being hardcast. He can't be welded, slaughter pacted, smothered etc. Only Stp and bounce really hurt him.
Cutting 1 "dead" slot and getting rid of lord for 4 tarmogoyfs? Where are you creating these extra slots?
This list is insanely horrible, but it will offer another idea on how to build the deck, belcher style. If your going to cut dsc, cut fow, cut lord, you should be going for a pure speed kill therefore:
// Lands 1 Bayou 1 Taiga
// Creatures 4 [JGC] Hermit Druid 4 Street Wraith 4 Simian Spirit Guide 4 Elvish Spirit Guide 4 Narcomoeba 1 Sutured Ghoul
// Spells 1 Mox Sapphire 1 Channel 4 Chromatic Star 1 Imperial Seal 1 Demonic Tutor 1 Vampiric Tutor 4 Manamorphose 1 Mana Crypt 1 Mox Pearl 1 Mox Jet 2 Cabal Therapy 1 Mox Ruby 1 Mox Emerald 1 Black Lotus 1 Lotus Petal 1 Wheel of Fortune 1 Dread Return 1 Dragon Breath 4 Spoils of the Vault 4 Dark Ritual 4 Land Grant
Edit: Forgot that spoils rfgs, your going to need another tutor for hermit or you will need to play more sutured ghouls.
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« Last Edit: June 23, 2009, 04:44:38 pm by oneofchaos »
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Somebody tell Chapin how counterbalance works?
"Of all the major Vintage archetypes that exist and have existed for a significant period of time, Oath of Druids is basically the only won that has never won Vintage Championships and never will (the other being Dredge, which will never win either)." - Some guy who does not know vintage....
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SiegeX
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« Reply #40 on: June 23, 2009, 05:05:14 pm » |
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So what's the idea with Wheel of Sun and Moon? Doomsday stacks using research/development aren't going to work anymore after exile and the RFG become different places, right? (I'll admit my total ignorance with doomsday). I could see the advantage of just making your deck and the order of it exactly what you want, even if you're going the aggro route you could side out the combo and leave in hermit druid so you can play with wheel of sun and moon.
It's an interesting thought experiment because unlike Doomsday, Wheel does not limit us to solely a 5 card deck. However, because of the Wheel, we can't play any of the Doomsday piles because we have no graveyard. So the question is, what is the best (unlimited) stack you can make that doesn't rely on cards in the yard or 1-card library tricks? My bet is that it has vault/key which essentially makes Wheel a G/W Tezzeret. EditSince I threw Wheel out there as an option, it's only right if I do the hard work and come up with some viable piles. Scratch that, these two piles don't work since Merchant Scroll randomizes deck order after it's played. Thanks to '2nd lawl' for pointing that out. Back to the drawing board.
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« Last Edit: June 24, 2009, 05:13:38 am by SiegeX »
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the boogie man
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« Reply #41 on: June 23, 2009, 08:05:35 pm » |
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I think that the lord can be replaced with terravore. terravore is pretty hardcastable, and pumps ghoul for a lot. plus, post board, if you side in 4 goyfs, that is one more threat that wins really quickly.
As a side note, I was toying with a bazaar list, tell me what you guys think. I don't have the time right now, but I will edit some info in.
3 bazaar 2 rifstone 4 polluted delta 3 underground 2 bayou 2 tropical
5 mox 1 lotus
4 force of will 3 null rod 2 thoughtseize 2 cabal therapy
4 hermit druid 4 narc 1 terravore 1 ghoul 1 breath 1 return
3 strategic 2 street wraith 1 timewalk 1 ancestral 1 mystical 1 vamp 1 brainstorm 1 ponder 1 repeal 1 chain of vapor
there seems to be a couple slots. but i'm not sure what I have penned in right now. With 4 goyfs in the side, a transformation is very possible.
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Unrestrict: Gush, Flash, Frantic search, fact or fiction (probably), and burning wish if it doesn't suck now.
this may be the last time you hear the boogie song.
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zabuza
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you will get what you asked me for
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« Reply #42 on: June 24, 2009, 03:47:09 am » |
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Becuse we need to resolve a druid, why not playing vexing shuser? This creature makes easy to play druid uncountereable so we can play it for sure. About the second win condition i think tendrils of agony is the best option, you can always beat with your creatures and finish the game with tendrils.
PD: remenber we can hardcast LOE to win the game.
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2nd_lawl
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« Reply #43 on: June 24, 2009, 04:26:55 am » |
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I think what he is getting at is that if they have leyline, and you have wheel and Hermit, You can simply hermit yourself and then selectively choose which replacement effects apply to whatever cards you choose (you are the controller of the cards so you choose which replacement effect happens), which basically allows you to stack your deck, so if you have tinker and DSC in your library and tinker gets revealed before DSC you put tinker on the bottom of your library and then DSC gets revealed next and goes under tinker. if that happens you draw tinker, and tinker away something for the 1 card left in your library (which is DSC) You wont deck yourself because you simply use the wheel to put tinker and the tinker sacrifice back on the bottom of your (empty) library. If DSC gets revealed first that means you need to find something like TFK or frantic search(!) to get it back in your library before you tinker.
Edit: the more I think about this the more I think that in the first situation (Tinker revealed first) you want at least 2 more cards under Tinker DSC so you cant be killed by Ancestral.
Double edit: Don't forget that once you tinker for DSC, if you redraw tinker(thanks to wheel), You can attack with DSC, Then tinker it away (put it in your library) and find it again to untap it if necessary (could be relevant in a DSC standoff).
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« Last Edit: June 24, 2009, 04:57:28 am by 2nd_lawl »
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2nd_lawl
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« Reply #44 on: June 24, 2009, 04:44:23 am » |
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So what's the idea with Wheel of Sun and Moon? Doomsday stacks using research/development aren't going to work anymore after exile and the RFG become different places, right? (I'll admit my total ignorance with doomsday). I could see the advantage of just making your deck and the order of it exactly what you want, even if you're going the aggro route you could side out the combo and leave in hermit druid so you can play with wheel of sun and moon.
It's an interesting thought experiment because unlike Doomsday, Wheel does not limit us to solely a 5 card deck. However, because of the Wheel, we can't play any of the Doomsday piles because we have no graveyard. So the question is, what is the best (unlimited) stack you can make that doesn't rely on cards in the yard or 1-card library tricks? My bet is that it has vault/key which essentially makes Wheel a G/W Tezzeret. EditSince I threw Wheel out there as an option, it's only right if I do the hard work and come up with some viable piles. One big advantage over Doomsday is that if you blow your load only to whiff with a Wheel out, all your cards will either be in play or back in your library. Just use Druid next turn and re-stack your deck all over again. Pile 1This first pile is very doomsday like, except instead of abusing Yawg, we abuse Wheel and cast Ancestral 3 times! Out of 10 cards in the pile, only 3 are not in any lists. With the 4 wheels, that's only 7 SB slots filled. Here it is: Ancestral Lotus LED Merchant Scroll Demonic Tutor Mox Sapphire Mana Crypt Mox Jet Tendrils of Agony <Anything Here> (probably another mox) Here is the play order (asterisks note storm count increase): *Play Ancestral Draw Lotus, LED, Merchant Scroll *Play and crack Lotus -- UUU *Play LED - UUU *Play Merchant Scroll -- U Grab Ancestral (it's in the library again thanks to wheel) *Play Ancestral Crack LED in response - BBB Draw DT, Sapphire, Crypt *Play and tap Sapphire - BBBU *Play and tap Crypt - BBBU2 *Play DT - BBU1 Grab Ancestral *Play Ancestral - BB1 Draw Jet, Tendrils, <Anything> *Play and tap Jet - BBB1 Play Tendrils -- Storm = 10 (or 11 if <Anything> costs 0 mana) Pile 2Since I mentioned Vault/Key in my prediction above, you could use this slightly smaller pile but requires 4 SB slots (not including Wheel) instead of 3 like above: Ancestral Lotus LED Merchant Scroll Vault Key Mox You would follow the same play order as in the first pile, but on the 2nd Ancestral you would draw Vault, Key, Mox with BBB in the pool. You play the Vault and Key and and use the mox you drew to activate key and go into your infi turn loop. At this point you would just beat face with the Druids. I dont think any of this works, from my understanding of the rules, when you reveal cards from hermit druids effect, the cards go in the graveyard in the same order as they were revealed, meaning that you can only "stack your deck" in the sense that you choose what is there, but not the order that it is in. this is why the Tinker DSC + Tfk + frantic search plan seems preferable, as it lets you attempt to cast tinker for DSC the next turn(75% of the time, depending on the order of cards in your library), and even if it gets countered, you can simply try again 2 turns later.
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SiegeX
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« Reply #45 on: June 24, 2009, 04:54:40 am » |
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I dont think any of this works, from my understanding of the rules, when you reveal cards from hermit druids effect, the cards go in the graveyard in the same order as they were revealed, meaning that you can only "stack your deck" in the sense that you choose what is there, but not the order that it is in.
I am 100% positive this works as stated. After you reveal cards from Druid, all cards revealed this way will go to the yard simultaneously. Thanks to the following rule, we can choose that order and stack our deck: 217.4c. If an effect or rule puts two or more cards into the same graveyard at the same time, the owner of those cards may arrange them in any order.
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2nd_lawl
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« Reply #46 on: June 24, 2009, 05:06:07 am » |
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I dont think any of this works, from my understanding of the rules, when you reveal cards from hermit druids effect, the cards go in the graveyard in the same order as they were revealed, meaning that you can only "stack your deck" in the sense that you choose what is there, but not the order that it is in.
I am 100% positive this works as stated. After you reveal cards from Druid, all cards revealed this way will go to the yard simultaneously. Thanks to the following rule, we can choose that order and stack our deck: 217.4c. If an effect or rule puts two or more cards into the same graveyard at the same time, the owner of those cards may arrange them in any order. Well regardless your doomsday "stack" doesn't work because once you cast merchant scroll, you have to shuffle your remaining cards which means you dont necessarily draw what you need.
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« Last Edit: June 24, 2009, 05:26:50 am by 2nd_lawl »
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SiegeX
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« Reply #47 on: June 24, 2009, 05:16:16 am » |
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Well regardless your doomsday "stack" doesn't work because once you cast merchant scroll, you have to shuffle your remaining cards which means you dont necessarily draw what you need.
You're completely right. Thank you for pointing that out, I got careless in not remembering the shuffle effect. Previous post updated. I'll still haven't given up hope yet, there has to be some pile out there.
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Marske
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« Reply #48 on: June 24, 2009, 05:19:56 am » |
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@SiegeX, Regardless of "stacking" your deck the wheel has some real viability. I've been intrigued with this deck since Eastman first posted it and I'm looking into doing some testing myself. With the upped value of leyline and graveyard hate having Wheel in this deck could very well help out a lot. I'm just not sure if going Tarmo beatdown is correct at that point because this would mean you're still likely to be raced or you have a 0/1 dude because of Relic and so on. So Null rod has some credibility as well. I'll post some of my own thoughts and findings when I have them.
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Riding a polka-powered zombie T-Rex into a necromancer family reunion in the middle of an evil ghost hurricane. "Meandeckers act like they forgot about Dredge." - Matt Elias The Atog Lord: I'm not an Atog because I'm GOOD with machines 
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2nd_lawl
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« Reply #49 on: June 24, 2009, 05:28:26 am » |
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Well regardless your doomsday "stack" doesn't work because once you cast merchant scroll, you have to shuffle your remaining cards which means you dont necessarily draw what you need.
You're completely right. Thank you for pointing that out, I got careless in not remembering the shuffle effect. Previous post updated. I'll still haven't given up hope yet, there has to be some pile out there. A stack that actually works is: Ancestral Black lotus Ponder Lotus Petal Tendrils Remember that with wheel in play whenever you cast anything it just goes to the bottom of your library, I dont even think you need tendrils here, The tendrils could be Shock and it doesn't matter as this stack gives you infinite storm/mana.
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SiegeX
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« Reply #50 on: June 24, 2009, 05:44:11 am » |
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@SiegeX, Regardless of "stacking" your deck the wheel has some real viability. I've been intrigued with this deck since Eastman first posted it and I'm looking into doing some testing myself. With the upped value of leyline and graveyard hate having Wheel in this deck could very well help out a lot. I'm just not sure if going Tarmo beatdown is correct at that point because this would mean you're still likely to be raced or you have a 0/1 dude because of Relic and so on. So Null rod has some credibility as well. I'll post some of my own thoughts and findings when I have them.
Wheel just seems to have too much going for it to be overlooked. It might end up being meh, but I don't think we have explored all it has to offer so I'm glad you're looking into it. I'm not sure if you were implying Tarmo with Wheel, but that would be a non-bo since Wheel does not allow us to have a GY once it is out. Remember that with wheel in play whenever you cast anything it just goes to the bottom of your library This is true, but don't forget that your library is not just a 5-card stack like doomsday, it is the *entire* library stacked; so that pile doesn't work either.
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Marske
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« Reply #51 on: June 24, 2009, 05:55:51 am » |
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@SiegeX, I was questioning the viability of Tarmogoyf as a plan B in general. I don't think he's going to be good enough games 2/3 because people will board stuff like leyline, Relic, Crypt which also tends to keep goyf rather small giving this deck too small of a clock to really compete against opposing TV/Vault, Storm, Dredge decks in general (imo the only decks capable of racing this) Quote from: 2nd_lawl Remember that with wheel in play whenever you cast anything it just goes to the bottom of your library This is true, but don't forget that your library is not just a 5-card stack like doomsday, it is the *entire* library stacked; so that pile doesn't work either. It's also possible to run a Doomsday and Wheel to get these kinds of blow out wins. Just a thought....
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Riding a polka-powered zombie T-Rex into a necromancer family reunion in the middle of an evil ghost hurricane. "Meandeckers act like they forgot about Dredge." - Matt Elias The Atog Lord: I'm not an Atog because I'm GOOD with machines 
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2nd_lawl
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« Reply #52 on: June 24, 2009, 06:01:08 am » |
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@SiegeX, Regardless of "stacking" your deck the wheel has some real viability. I've been intrigued with this deck since Eastman first posted it and I'm looking into doing some testing myself. With the upped value of leyline and graveyard hate having Wheel in this deck could very well help out a lot. I'm just not sure if going Tarmo beatdown is correct at that point because this would mean you're still likely to be raced or you have a 0/1 dude because of Relic and so on. So Null rod has some credibility as well. I'll post some of my own thoughts and findings when I have them.
Wheel just seems to have too much going for it to be overlooked. It might end up being meh, but I don't think we have explored all it has to offer so I'm glad you're looking into it. I'm not sure if you were implying Tarmo with Wheel, but that would be a non-bo since Wheel does not allow us to have a GY once it is out. Remember that with wheel in play whenever you cast anything it just goes to the bottom of your library This is true, but don't forget that your library is not just a 5-card stack like doomsday, it is the *entire* library stacked; so that pile doesn't work either. I Thought this was operating under the assumption that your opponent has leyline. If its your whole deck then the stack is obviously Ancestral, Lotus, Key, brainstorm, Mana Vault, Time Vault (if you have 2 cards in hand but no many free besides the U for Ancestral) OR just Ancestral, Lotus, Key, Time Vault (if you have a single free mana)
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« Last Edit: June 24, 2009, 06:03:45 am by 2nd_lawl »
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Marske
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« Reply #53 on: June 24, 2009, 06:05:24 am » |
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@2nd_Lawl, Could you explain to me why you would want to stack your deck against an opposing leyline to grab Key / Vault and go infinite (still needing to actually win) and not choose to win using "Plan B" resolve Dooms day create infinite storm / mana and tendrils ?
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Riding a polka-powered zombie T-Rex into a necromancer family reunion in the middle of an evil ghost hurricane. "Meandeckers act like they forgot about Dredge." - Matt Elias The Atog Lord: I'm not an Atog because I'm GOOD with machines 
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2nd_lawl
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« Reply #54 on: June 24, 2009, 06:25:27 am » |
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@2nd_Lawl, Could you explain to me why you would want to stack your deck against an opposing leyline to grab Key / Vault and go infinite (still needing to actually win) and not choose to win using "Plan B" resolve Dooms day create infinite storm / mana and tendrils ?
You don't, I'm saying the opposite, sorry if Im not being clear. If your opponent has leyline you dont even need doomsday. The interaction between Wheel and Leyline is such that if you activate hermit while you have wheel and they have leyline you can stack your deck any way you like, and rfg(*cough* I mean exile) any cards you dont want in it. Here are the stacks for either situation: 1)Against Leyline: Ancestral Black Lotus Ponder Lotus Petal Tendrils *rest of deck should be RFG* 2) No Leyline, 1 Free colorless mana in addition to the U for ancestral: Ancestral Black Lotus Time Vault Voltaic Key -------------optional----------- Tinker Mox Deck (including DSC) 3) No Leyline, No extra mana besides the U, At least 1 Card in hand: Ancestral Black Lotus Brainstorm Mana Vault (or Mana Crypt) Voltaic Key Time Vault Tinker or a bounce spell (so you dont die to crypt/mana vault)
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« Last Edit: June 24, 2009, 06:37:12 am by 2nd_lawl »
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SiegeX
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I'm attacking the darkness!
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« Reply #55 on: June 24, 2009, 06:38:09 am » |
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Edit See post on pg 3 for a more optimal kill via Wheel/Druid
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« Last Edit: June 24, 2009, 07:31:14 pm by SiegeX »
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Marske
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Go beyond Synergy and enter Poetry
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« Reply #56 on: June 24, 2009, 06:39:12 am » |
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You don't, I'm saying the opposite, sorry if Im not being clear. If your opponent has leyline you dont even need doomsday. The interaction between Wheel and Leyline is such that if you activate hermit while you have wheel and they have leyline you can stack your deck any way you like, and rfg(*cough* I mean exile) any cards you dont want in it. I know, I was assuming you stacking the deck lets run trough your suggested piles. Maybe that will clarify my point: 1)Against Leyline: Ancestral Black Lotus Ponder Lotus Petal Tendrils Assuming you haven't done anything but activated Druid this turn this would give you 5 storm (depending on what's 2 cards deeper with ponder showing you tendrils and 2 blanks) this is not a win. Rather if you doomsday (removing the rest of your deck) and still assume Wheel is in play you can basically create arbitrarily large amounts of mana and storm and Tendrils FTW. Sure against a deck running Null rod you still have to deal with that but i'm just saying it has potential. 2) No Leyline, 1 Free colorless mana in addition to the U for ancestral: Ancestral Black Lotus Time Vault Voltaic Key -------------optional----------- Tinker Mox Deck (including DSC) This pile does indeed win, you need lots of components to fit (ancestral must stick, and you need 1U up etc) I think there are better ways to utilize winning now (including the pile I mentioned before with Doomsdaying your deck away) 3) No Leyline, No extra mana besides the U, At least 1 Card in hand: Ancestral Black Lotus Brainstorm Mana Vault (or Mana Crypt) Voltaic Key Time Vault Tinker or a bounce spell (so you dont die to crypt/mana vault) Same as the former pile. including it has even more components you need to come together. I don't think this deck wants to run TV / Key, because when you look at it you're already almost invulnerable to null rod. Adding TV/Key makes you very vulnerable. My current testing shows there are better ways to abuse Wheel and just plain win on the spot. Although it is to limited and lacking to actually posts some results at this time I'll sure do so in the very near future. This deck has intrigued me a lot.
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Riding a polka-powered zombie T-Rex into a necromancer family reunion in the middle of an evil ghost hurricane. "Meandeckers act like they forgot about Dredge." - Matt Elias The Atog Lord: I'm not an Atog because I'm GOOD with machines 
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Andreas
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« Reply #57 on: June 24, 2009, 07:47:02 am » |
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1)Against Leyline: Ancestral Black Lotus Ponder Lotus Petal Tendrils Assuming you haven't done anything but activated Druid this turn this would give you 5 storm (depending on what's 2 cards deeper with ponder showing you tendrils and 2 blanks) this is not a win. It is. Remember that with Leyline for the opponent and wheel on your side you can choose for each card, which replacement effect to apply. So you remove everything except those 5. Any Spell you play afterwards is put to the bottom of the library (if you choose so), allowing you to loop through Ancestral - Lotus - Ponder - Petal until you have the Mana and storm necessary for the kill.
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Marske
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« Reply #58 on: June 24, 2009, 07:59:56 am » |
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@Andreas, Agreed, I messed up on that interaction  thing is, with something like Doomsday in the deck you don't even have to care if the players is playing Crypt / Relic / Leyline because you can pull the trick no matter what hate your facing (except Extirpate) With that pile you're assuming the opponent has leyline. With the play I'm suggesting you don't really have to care about it. All that matters is you're not using the graveyard to kill.
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Riding a polka-powered zombie T-Rex into a necromancer family reunion in the middle of an evil ghost hurricane. "Meandeckers act like they forgot about Dredge." - Matt Elias The Atog Lord: I'm not an Atog because I'm GOOD with machines 
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Purple Hat
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« Reply #59 on: June 24, 2009, 08:50:46 am » |
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Haha, I FOUND IT. An infi combo with Wheel/Druid that makes infi storm, all thanks to one card... Cerulean Wisps |Instant| Target creature becomes blue until end of turn. Untap that creature. / Draw a card.Here is how it goes down: Tap Druid to stack deck with the following 5 cards on top: Ancestral Lotus Cerulean Wisps Pact of Negation (can be anything really) <any cantrip for U> Play Ancestral -- Draw Lotus, Wisps, Pact Play Lotus -- Crack for UUU Play Wisps targeting Druid - UU Draw <cantrip> Stack Deck again to look like above, use the cantrip to draw Ancestral, use last U to cast Ancestral. Repeat ad infinitum. Make a final pile of: Ancestral Lotus Mox Tendrils Note that you'll need two copies of <cantrip> for this to work since you have to always have one on hand to draw Ancestral. You could conceivably draw your entire deck with this combo too by putting any one card in the pact slot and hold onto it. Although this combo works (let me know if im wrong), the 2x cantrip just doesn't seem optimal. I'm sure it can be whittled down some more. wouldn't you also need infinite green mana to activate the druid?
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"it's brainstorm...how can you not play brainstorm? You've cast that card right? and it resolved?" -Pat Chapin
Just moved - Looking for players/groups in North Jersey to sling some cardboard.
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