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Troy_Costisick
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« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2009, 10:10:23 am » |
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Heya,
Good article. You note that over the last year, the changes in the B/R List for Vintage have been broader in scope than in the past. I agree, but I find it interesting that the unrestrictions have had little impact while the restrictions have had a major impact. Dream Halls, Personal Tutor, Chrome Mox, etc from last September have impacted maybe one archetype (ANT). The Crop Roation/Entomb unrestrictions might impact two others; we'll see if any reanimation strategy is any good now. The unrestrictions have resulted in minor adjustments while the restrictions have been format changing. I think it illustrates that the DCI should exercise more caution on the latter and be more liberal with the former going forward. I believe they will.
Peace,
-Troy
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Akuma
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« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2009, 01:31:38 pm » |
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I'm glad to see 4 cards unrestricted. I doubt they will have much of an impact, but it is a step in the right direction. Restricting Thirst for Knowledge really sucks though. It seems to indicate that the DCI will in fact not be unrestricting any of the blue cards they have axed in the past year or so. That means that there will be no diversity within the blue archetypes, no engines to compete against each other. This restriction will amount to "Blue Shell - 3 Thirst for Knowledge", big f'n whoop  Mentioned within the article was the whole "Lauer era" and "Buehler era" of Vintage. There really is no comparison, Buehler actually played Vintage, posted on our boards, he knew what was going on, he was in touch with this community. Vintage thrived as a result. I don't have anything kind to say about the direction Mr. Lauer has taken this format, so I will just leave it at that... Off topic, I'm a big Street Fighter II fan, nice to see you quote David Sirlin. I guess I will modify my sig thanks to you  |
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« Last Edit: June 22, 2009, 02:21:58 pm by Akuma »
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"Expect my visit when the darkness comes. The night I think is best for hiding all."
Restrictions - "It is the scrub's way out"
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meadbert
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« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2009, 02:43:02 pm » |
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My main concern with Crop Rotation is that Cropper + Gemstone Caverns may lead to too many turn 1 wins for dredge. Although I am concerned about this I agree with Steve's assessment that in the end Serum Powder is probably better.
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T1: Arsenal
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Smmenen
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« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2009, 02:48:57 pm » |
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My main concern with Crop Rotation is that Cropper + Gemstone Caverns may lead to too many turn 1 wins for dredge. Although I am concerned about this I agree with Steve's assessment that in the end Serum Powder is probably better.
There isn't a single dredge deck that currently runs or boards Gemstone Caverns that has made a top 8 in the last couple of months, so I don't think that's a justified concern at the moment. Not to mention, it would require an insane number of things to go right for it to happen. Even if there are such turn one wins, they would be so statistically small as to not matter. |
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deathdealer
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« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2009, 05:21:30 pm » |
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My main concern with Crop Rotation is that Cropper + Gemstone Caverns may lead to too many turn 1 wins for dredge. Although I am concerned about this I agree with Steve's assessment that in the end Serum Powder is probably better.
There isn't a single dredge deck that currently runs or boards Gemstone Caverns that has made a top 8 in the last couple of months, so I don't think that's a justified concern at the moment. Not to mention, it would require an insane number of things to go right for it to happen. Even if there are such turn one wins, they would be so statistically small as to not matter. A few comments: (dredge) New BR list why would ANY deck top 8 with these cards prior to the new list ? I do think 2 cards shouldn't have became unrestricted (entomb) and (grim monolith) entomb/dredge grim monolith/power artifact restricting thirst may seem silly but makes sence being that most are playing artifact based decks and we dont want a watered down meta. We still have the card ( three wishes) to try to break now:) more and more I really hate seeing the format I love turn into "rich mans highlander" I'm getting to the point ware I'm wishing EDH was a real format  ~ All and all good article steve but dont dismiss anything right now we dont want you to eat your words "AGAIN" note dibbs on saying Three wishes next t1 draw staple.. |
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« Last Edit: June 22, 2009, 05:26:51 pm by deathdealer »
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Lurker101
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« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2009, 05:58:47 pm » |
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I do think 2 cards shouldn't have became unrestricted (entomb) and (grim monolith)
entomb/dredge
grim monolith/power artifact
No one's going to play entomb in Dredge it does fine without it and Grim Monolith + Power Artifact isn't that powerful anymore. Grim Monolith probably won't get played very much at all except in maybe Belcher or something. Entomb is easily hated out but it opens the door for Dragon to come back as well as new reanimator strategies. I was very happy to see entomb come off the list. Would've liked to see a few more unrestrictions though, there's still a sizable amount of cards that could come off and make for a very diverse but not super broken meta-game. |
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deathdealer
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« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2009, 06:06:39 pm » |
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I do think 2 cards shouldn't have became unrestricted (entomb) and (grim monolith)
entomb/dredge
grim monolith/power artifact
No one's going to play entomb in Dredge it does fine without it and Grim Monolith + Power Artifact isn't that powerful anymore. Grim Monolith probably won't get played very much at all except in maybe Belcher or something. Entomb is easily hated out but it opens the door for Dragon to come back as well as new reanimator strategies. I was very happy to see entomb come off the list. Would've liked to see a few more unrestrictions though, there's still a sizable amount of cards that could come off and make for a very diverse but not super broken meta-game. Well I disagree with the fact that entomb fits dredge perfectly (obviously not mana less) we agree to disagree and that's a pretty stout statement saying (no one will play x) As far a dragon sure go a head make a bad deck a little better but again they will have to fight the same hate as dredge making it still a tier 2 deck.. |
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Smmenen
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« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2009, 06:26:45 pm » |
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Entomb is counterable and too slow for dredge
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voltron00x
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« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2009, 06:47:00 pm » |
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Entomb is counterable and too slow for dredge
QFT. Ditto the idea of playing turn 0 Gemstone Caverns into Crop Rot. All of these things open up a deck that is more or less immune to FoW game 1 to being blown out by Force of Will. There's no need to do this - many of these posts seem to be operating under the assumption that Ichorid "needs something", when in reality the deck is arguably the second-best performing deck in current Vintage. A few thoughts... first, it seems likely that we'll see a shift in the type of graveyard hate being played in the future, and this could negatively impact Ichorid. Ichorid has been able to mostly pretend Leyline doesn't exist since Flash left the format, but this may change as it is strong against Entomb strategies and may be good against Stax (it hits Crucible and Welder) as protection against Strip Mine locks. Extirpate may also become a bigger player going forward. I also think Needle took another jump as it hits Bazaar, Vault, and Strip Mine, making it playable against 3 of the 4 major "pillars". Finally, there may be a place for a card like Extract, which can hit Vault or Strip Mine preemptively. |
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« Last Edit: June 23, 2009, 08:50:42 am by voltron00x »
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Win as if you were used to it, lose as if you enjoyed it for a change.
Team East Coast Wins
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2nd_lawl
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« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2009, 12:36:16 am » |
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Pithing needle has become incredibly potent, Presenting problems for Tez, stax, and dredge (and even TPS if they misplay and don't fetch in response). I think it deserves consideration for maindeck inclusion in many decks, since everyone seems to be boarding it against many of the major matchups.
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meadbert
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« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2009, 10:09:08 am » |
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My main concern with Crop Rotation is that Cropper + Gemstone Caverns may lead to too many turn 1 wins for dredge. Although I am concerned about this I agree with Steve's assessment that in the end Serum Powder is probably better.
There isn't a single dredge deck that currently runs or boards Gemstone Caverns that has made a top 8 in the last couple of months, so I don't think that's a justified concern at the moment. Not to mention, it would require an insane number of things to go right for it to happen. Even if there are such turn one wins, they would be so statistically small as to not matter. Gemstone Caverns is not good without Crop Rotation so recent history is not a good judge of its viability going forward. In conjunction the two are very powerful because on the draw you can Cropper for Bazaar on your opponent's first turn, use the same Bazaar for a second activation on your turn and then either drop a new Bazaar for a 3rd activation or cast Breakthrough or drop a land and start using Fatestitchers. Any of these are likely to result in a turn 1 win if you run Zealot. Having Gemstone Caverns + Cropper in your hand is not quite an insane number of things, but the probability of getting both is only about 15% so the percentage of turn 1 wins is still going to be low compared to other combo decks like Long so I agree with your assessment. |
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T1: Arsenal
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Smmenen
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« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2009, 10:34:51 am » |
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My main concern with Crop Rotation is that Cropper + Gemstone Caverns may lead to too many turn 1 wins for dredge. Although I am concerned about this I agree with Steve's assessment that in the end Serum Powder is probably better.
There isn't a single dredge deck that currently runs or boards Gemstone Caverns that has made a top 8 in the last couple of months, so I don't think that's a justified concern at the moment. Not to mention, it would require an insane number of things to go right for it to happen. Even if there are such turn one wins, they would be so statistically small as to not matter. Gemstone Caverns is not good without Crop Rotation so recent history is not a good judge of its viability going forward. In conjunction the two are very powerful because on the draw you can Cropper for Bazaar on your opponent's first turn, use the same Bazaar for a second activation on your turn and then either drop a new Bazaar for a 3rd activation or cast Breakthrough or drop a land and start using Fatestitchers. Any of these are likely to result in a turn 1 win if you run Zealot. Having Gemstone Caverns + Cropper in your hand is not quite an insane number of things, but the probability of getting both is only about 15% so the percentage of turn 1 wins is still going to be low compared to other combo decks like Long so I agree with your assessment. You missed a key element: 1) you need to be on the draw2) you need to have Gemstone Caverns in hand 3) you need Crop Rotation in hand The probability of all three of those things occurring is well below 10%, and quite low. |
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voltron00x
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« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2009, 11:13:48 am » |
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My main concern with Crop Rotation is that Cropper + Gemstone Caverns may lead to too many turn 1 wins for dredge. Although I am concerned about this I agree with Steve's assessment that in the end Serum Powder is probably better.
There isn't a single dredge deck that currently runs or boards Gemstone Caverns that has made a top 8 in the last couple of months, so I don't think that's a justified concern at the moment. Not to mention, it would require an insane number of things to go right for it to happen. Even if there are such turn one wins, they would be so statistically small as to not matter. Gemstone Caverns is not good without Crop Rotation so recent history is not a good judge of its viability going forward. In conjunction the two are very powerful because on the draw you can Cropper for Bazaar on your opponent's first turn, use the same Bazaar for a second activation on your turn and then either drop a new Bazaar for a 3rd activation or cast Breakthrough or drop a land and start using Fatestitchers. Any of these are likely to result in a turn 1 win if you run Zealot. Having Gemstone Caverns + Cropper in your hand is not quite an insane number of things, but the probability of getting both is only about 15% so the percentage of turn 1 wins is still going to be low compared to other combo decks like Long so I agree with your assessment. You missed a key element: 1) you need to be on the draw2) you need to have Gemstone Caverns in hand 3) you need Crop Rotation in hand The probability of all three of those things occurring is well below 10%, and quite low. I'd add: 1) you need to be on the draw2) you need to have Gemstone Caverns in hand 3) you need Crop Rotation in hand 4) your opponent must either not be playing blue, or they must not have Force of Will with another blue card in hand Game 1, are you really going to keep a hand with Gemstone Caverns and Crop Rotation and no Bazaar? If your opponent plays Force of Will on the Crop Rot, you're done for... |
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Win as if you were used to it, lose as if you enjoyed it for a change.
Team East Coast Wins
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nataz
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Mighty Mighty Maine-Tone
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« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2009, 03:10:54 pm » |
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playing grim long, would you keep a hand with a turn 1 win that folded to FOW in game 1? Game 1, are you really going to keep a hand with Gemstone Caverns and Crop Rotation and no Bazaar? If your opponent plays Force of Will on the Crop Rot, you're done for... I think it depends on the overal strength of the ichorid deck. If I can find a build with rotation and gemstone that can "get there" pretty much everytime I start on the draw but with a bazaar on my opp turn, I'd consider it. Interesting option would be wining the coin flip and offering to be on the draw. In theory (if it ended up being meaningful) you can pretty much always be on the draw since in vintage everyone who wins the flip will go first. I think in addition to crop rotation, you add in vampiric tutor as well for additional lines of play on your opponents turn. I'm really not sure where to go with this kind of build however. I'm going to start looking over pre-bridge lists (that have significant amounts of mana) for ideas. |
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I will write Peace on your wings
and you will fly around the world
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Smmenen
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« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2009, 03:14:27 pm » |
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Here is another problem:
Even if you were to use Gemstone Caverns, you are only going to be playing it on the draw for its effect. is it worth the sideboard space?
Didn't we have a super long discussion about this a couple of years ago between Meadbert and myself, where i was an advocate for Caverns, and I turned out to be wrong?
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Sam101
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« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2009, 05:16:15 pm » |
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Didn't we have a super long discussion about this a couple of years ago between Meadbert and myself, where i was an advocate for Caverns, and I turned out to be wrong?
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=31723.30 |
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« Last Edit: June 23, 2009, 05:19:41 pm by Sam101 »
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voltron00x
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« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2009, 05:32:51 pm » |
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playing grim long, would you keep a hand with a turn 1 win that folded to FOW in game 1? Game 1, are you really going to keep a hand with Gemstone Caverns and Crop Rotation and no Bazaar? If your opponent plays Force of Will on the Crop Rot, you're done for... I think it depends on the overal strength of the ichorid deck. If I can find a build with rotation and gemstone that can "get there" pretty much everytime I start on the draw but with a bazaar on my opp turn, I'd consider it. Interesting option would be wining the coin flip and offering to be on the draw. In theory (if it ended up being meaningful) you can pretty much always be on the draw since in vintage everyone who wins the flip will go first. I think in addition to crop rotation, you add in vampiric tutor as well for additional lines of play on your opponents turn. I'm really not sure where to go with this kind of build however. I'm going to start looking over pre-bridge lists (that have significant amounts of mana) for ideas. I've never played Long, and probably wouldn't in this environment. I have however played Belcher in Legacy, and you're forced to make that decision all of the time. G1 with Ichorid I would never want a build that folds to FoW when I'm soooo heavily favored to win G1 with a "normal" build. I just don't see how anyone can consider that an "improvement". |
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Win as if you were used to it, lose as if you enjoyed it for a change.
Team East Coast Wins
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policehq
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« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2009, 05:47:52 pm » |
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The requirements for Gemstone Caverns to produce an early win:
1) Gemstone Caverns in opening hand
2) Crop Rotation in opening hand
3) A card with sufficient Dredge in opening hand
4) A card to remove from the game that isn't relevant (not Gemstone Caverns, Crop Rotation, a Dredger, Dread Return, or DR target)
5) Playing on the draw.
6) Relevant dredges.
7) No counterspell, grave-hate, Sphere, discard, Wasteland, or Pithing Needle from the opponent.
And of course, not mulliganing into oblivion, which already happens once or twice per tournament at least, right?
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« Last Edit: June 23, 2009, 05:54:11 pm by policehq »
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NicolaeAlmighty
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« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2009, 12:58:12 pm » |
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Yeah, uh, ok. We get it. Caverns + Rotation is not threatening and would be a very stupid direction to take Dredge. I think it's safe to say people can stop repeating the same information while "contributing" their own points on top of what has already been said. I'm sure one of you pros could go start a thread all about how terrible an idea it is to make such ridiculous additions to an already mediocre deck... So go do it elsewhere.
Back to the, you know, point of this thread... Blue mages may weep over the loss of yet another potent draw spell and embrace their highlander destinies, but I'm happy they're at least attempting to restore balance to the rest of the color wheel. It's a wink late to realize how doomed their own system is but at least they're trying. Boo blue... I welcome something other than the same old recycled shit from the past 3+ years.
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"Hey, I got the bye!" shouted Probasco when he heard the Featured Match call. Menendian glared at him, and the glare only worsened when Probasco asked, "Hey Steve, how's your sister doing lately?" |
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Purple Hat
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« Reply #20 on: June 29, 2009, 01:53:29 pm » |
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Yeah, uh, ok. We get it. Caverns + Rotation is not threatening and would be a very stupid direction to take Dredge. I think it's safe to say people can stop repeating the same information while "contributing" their own points on top of what has already been said. I'm sure one of you pros could go start a thread all about how terrible an idea it is to make such ridiculous additions to an already mediocre deck... So go do it elsewhere.
Back to the, you know, point of this thread... Blue mages may weep over the loss of yet another potent draw spell and embrace their highlander destinies, but I'm happy they're at least attempting to restore balance to the rest of the color wheel. It's a wink late to realize how doomed their own system is but at least they're trying. Boo blue... I welcome something other than the same old recycled shit from the past 3+ years.
the only way to "restore balance to the color wheel" as you put it is to give white and green some mechanics that are good in vintage. the only way that's gonna happen is with another set of color shifted cards. This might produce things like more white counter spells or maybe some green card draw. Otherwise white and green are always gonna suck beyond the occasional random playable mistake like goyf. |
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"it's brainstorm...how can you not play brainstorm? You've cast that card right? and it resolved?" -Pat Chapin
Just moved - Looking for players/groups in North Jersey to sling some cardboard.
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AmbivalentDuck
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Posts: 2807
Exile Ancestral and turn Tiago sideways.
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« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2009, 08:58:34 am » |
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You could give green and white a huge boost with:
Enchantress's Workshop
T: Add 3 mana of any one color to your mana pool. Use this only to play enchantment spells.
Or maybe only auras...
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DubDub
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« Reply #22 on: July 01, 2009, 09:34:50 am » |
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You could give green and white a huge boost with:
Enchantress's Workshop
T: Add 3 mana of any one color to your mana pool. Use this only to play enchantment spells.
Or maybe only auras...
White black would certainly be helped by that land: T1 Plains-Enlightened Tutor for Necro. T2 That land + Necro? I think only auras would be prudent, we want to force people casting Necro to have cast Dark Ritual first right? |
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Vintage is a lovely format, it's too bad so few people can play because the supply of power is so small.
Chess really changed when they decided to stop making Queens and Bishops. I'm just glad I got my copies before the prices went crazy.
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