B/R Changes Explained - An Actual Vintage Article on MTG.com

[LotusHead]

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/44

I didn't see another thread on this yet, so here's the link for y'all.

It's an actual ARTICLE on Vintage and ONLY Vintage.

While their reason for restricting Thirst For Knowledge was quite weak, I truly appreciate them for doing more than a paragraph on the topics!

Most Vintage decks contain large quantities of restricted cards. In fact, the only unrestricted blue cards that most Mana Drain / Tezzeret decks played four copies of were Force of Will, Mana Drain, and Thirst for Knowledge. Restricting Force of Will would be ruinous. Restricting Mana Drain might eliminate blue as a deck entirely, and it also would take away a large part of what makes Vintage special to many of its players. The only other blue card that Mana Drain / Tezzeret decks played more than one copy of was Tezzeret the Seeker. Most decks play two copies of Tezzeret, but reducing from two copies to one would not have hurt the deck significantly. Thirst for Knowledge was the only card that made sense for us to restrict.

We expect that Tezzeret-based Mana Drain decks will still be strong, but that they will be weakened.

They didn't identify Thirst as a problem or THE problem with Tez Decks, other than "we have to restrict SOMETHING!".

The few decks that regularly run 4 Thirsts are Bomberman builds and Slaver builds, and those aren't nearly tier 1/heavily played, format warping, etc.

Discuss!

[Chippo]

I think that the most important point to pick up from the article is that they want to do something about Tez but they have no clue what to do. On the other hand it's great that they try to open more designspace. But as already discussed by other writers and also mentioned in the article the question is whether Tez will be hurt or will just switch a bit to other draw spells which are still in the game.

[bluemage55]

Even though I strongly disagree with the restriction of Thirst for Knowledge as a means to balance the metagame, I have to admit the article was a good explanation of their decisions.  I applaud their reiteration of the policy of not banning cards in Vintage, and I greatly appreciate the attention they've given Vintage with this article.

I can understand their point of view in restricting TfK, because it's basically the only way to weaken Tezzeret via restrictions.  As stated elsewhere, though, I still feel that this is a mistake and they are better off attacking Tezzeret by unrestricting cards that would allow for different blue archetypes to balance the metagame.  Ponder, Gush, Brainstorm, and Flash are all cards that could have been unrestricted to return us, at least in part, to the Golden Age of Vintage that was the second Gush era.  Despite the complains that may have been around at that time, the particular combinations of decks of that era results in a very diverse metagame, one in which a R/G Beatz deck was even able to win a Waterbury.

I'm afraid that despite the DCI's apparently well thought-out decisions here, they will not find great success in achieving their stated goal to weaken the Tez archetype.  Tezzeret pilots will simply adapt by adopting different drawing engines, whether that is Bob, Remora, or Intuition/AK.  In their search to restrict something to weaken Tez, they overlooked the possibility that you could restrict every blue spell in Magic besides Drain and FoW and the deck would still be viable.  Ultimately, the way to bring balance to the metagame is not to restrict more cards (which inadvertantly manages to kill other archetypes like Slaver and Bomberman this year, and GAT/TTS/Tyrant Oath/Flash/Fish last year), but to unrestrict cards.

[2nd_lawl]

In he article he notes the difficulty of printing cards that affect vintage but that wouldn't be overpowered in smaller formats.  I just dont buy this. In an article last week, pat chapin suggested some cards that would be game changers in vintage but wouldnt be overpowered in smaller formats.

One of those is of particular interest:
Dark Deal
Sorcery
B
Target player looks through your library and exiles up to three cards. Then look through that player’s library and exile up to three cards. Both players shuffle their libraries.

that card would be format warping in vintage (and insane against tez in particular) but probably wouldn't even see play in smaller formats.  There's plenty of design space for cards such as these, and Rosewater has said many times in his articles that not all cards are for everybody, so there's no excuse why R&D wouldn't be able to print some vintage specific cards. Its certainly a more elegant solution then restricting Thirst, which in my estimation doesn't even make tez all that worse, while, like lotushead said, hitting allot of Tier 2/3 decks like bomberman.  If we had to wait 6 months before that card saw print, I think its worth the wait, instead of restricting another card that in all likelihood is never going to make it back off the list.

[zeus-online]

That was the best article on why they did something in Type1 in a long while...But unfortunetly it stills seems to me like they're basicly saying:

Tezzeret is the best deck, and we have no way of dealing with it within our own rules for B&R in vintage. So we decided to kill the only card played as a four-off.

I'm generally surprised that they got most of it right though...It seems like they actually did some research this time.

Another thing to note: It seems to me like they actually did discuss banning cards in vintage.

[LotusHead]

I also appreciate that they go out of their way to mention that these cards are more or less "protected" from the restricted list.

Ahhhhh.... Vintage will always be Vintage!

[Chippo]

I also appreciate that they go out of their way to mention that these cards are more or less "protected" from the restricted list.

Ahhhhh.... Vintage will always be Vintage!

This one I hope will be try.

But on the other hand there was a thing in the article that struck me.

The four tournament Vintage archetypes that we have identified revolve around four cards: Dark Ritual, Force of Will, Bazaar of Baghdad, and Mishra's Workshop.

For me this is wrong in a sense that it's not Force of Will but Mana Drain that occupies this slot. In the end all 4 cards (if we take Drain into account) are tempo generators which is partially true for Force but also for Counterspell.
On the other hand I agree with the statement that Force is the glue that keeps the format together but that aside.

[tito del monte]

Definitely agree that it's good to see Vintage given this much space and attention by Wizards, even if some of the reasoning seems a little weak. Having said that, if the restriction of Thirst is the price we have to pay to keep Drain as a four-of, then I'm happy.

Also good to hear them reiterate that they do not want to ban cards, even if it implies they did consider it.

Overall, I applaud Wizards for the process they've undertaken of cleaning up the restricted list. I do hope in future though that they don't see restriction as the only way to control the format - the onus is on them to design new cards that create or strengthen a variety of archetypes - or bulk up Magic's weakest colours. Green has definitely had a good boost over the past few years - I really think now white needs a concerted effort from the R&D team to raise its playability.

EDIT: do you guys think the restriction of Thirst implies Mana Drain could be in FTV: Exiled? That could be a real shot in the arm for Vintage..
 

[Vegeta2711]

In he article he notes the difficulty of printing cards that affect vintage but that wouldn't be overpowered in smaller formats.  I just dont buy this. In an article last week, pat chapin suggested some cards that would be game changers in vintage but wouldnt be overpowered in smaller formats.

One of those is of particular interest:
Dark Deal
Sorcery
B
Target player looks through your library and exiles up to three cards. Then look through that player’s library and exile up to three cards. Both players shuffle their libraries.

that card would be format warping in vintage (and insane against tez in particular) but probably wouldn't even see play in smaller formats.  There's plenty of design space for cards such as these, and Rosewater has said many times in his articles that not all cards are for everybody, so there's no excuse why R&D wouldn't be able to print some vintage specific cards. Its certainly a more elegant solution then restricting Thirst, which in my estimation doesn't even make tez all that worse, while, like lotushead said, hitting allot of Tier 2/3 decks like bomberman.  If we had to wait 6 months before that card saw print, I think its worth the wait, instead of restricting another card that in all likelihood is never going to make it back off the list.

The reason cards like this don't see print is because they're absolute shit to open for the average player vs. the less than 1% of the magic playing population that plays Vintage. What they, and we, actually want is something akin to Chalice of the Void or Trinisphere. Good in Eternal formats and playable elsewhere (both saw heavy extended play for example). A couple of random Rosewater mentions don't mean shit in the grand scheme.

[2nd_lawl]

In he article he notes the difficulty of printing cards that affect vintage but that wouldn't be overpowered in smaller formats.  I just dont buy this. In an article last week, pat chapin suggested some cards that would be game changers in vintage but wouldnt be overpowered in smaller formats.

One of those is of particular interest:
Dark Deal
Sorcery
B
Target player looks through your library and exiles up to three cards. Then look through that player’s library and exile up to three cards. Both players shuffle their libraries.

that card would be format warping in vintage (and insane against tez in particular) but probably wouldn't even see play in smaller formats.  There's plenty of design space for cards such as these, and Rosewater has said many times in his articles that not all cards are for everybody, so there's no excuse why R&D wouldn't be able to print some vintage specific cards. Its certainly a more elegant solution then restricting Thirst, which in my estimation doesn't even make tez all that worse, while, like lotushead said, hitting allot of Tier 2/3 decks like bomberman.  If we had to wait 6 months before that card saw print, I think its worth the wait, instead of restricting another card that in all likelihood is never going to make it back off the list.

The reason cards like this don't see print is because they're absolute shit to open for the average player vs. the less than 1% of the magic playing population that plays Vintage. What they, and we, actually want is something akin to Chalice of the Void or Trinisphere. Good in Eternal formats and playable elsewhere (both saw heavy extended play for example). A couple of random Rosewater mentions don't mean shit in the grand scheme.

This is just false,  That card has more widespread appeal then stuff like One With Nothing or Immortal Coil and yet cards like those see print all the time with the justification from R&D being "oh its only for small group of players."  Even if a card is only playable in vintage, at least it has value to somebody and can be traded away for something the player wants.  Inkwell leviathian is worth more then a generic crap rare because it sees vintage(and only vintage) play. Good luck Trading away your Immortal Coils.  Really Wizards has no good excuse why they arent printing more cards that can impact vintage.

[Caron]

..Wizard point of view is very interesting, and i'm very happy they pay attention to vintage too...
it's also very important that they don't Ban strong cards like vault just to kill an archeype but that they try to
balance the format by unrestricting/restricting other cards.
Even if i used four of them, i'm also happy with the restriction of thirst, which was actually not the problem but surely a part of it.
What i don't like is that: if they want to rule a format in an efficient way, why don't they organize events, leagues etc. like they do in other formats in order to
gather reliable informations on the format itself?

unfotunately i think i know the answer... they think they won't do enough money from such a thing..

and that's it...

CARONDIMONIO

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya,

This is probably the best article magicthegathering.com has ever had on Vintage not written by Steve in.... ever.  I think it's obvious they are perusing boards like TMD and SCG.  They seem to have a much better handle on the format than they did a year ago.  I imagine our outrage at the June 2008 restrictions woke them up some. 

I also appreciate that they go out of their way to mention that these cards are more or less "protected" from the restricted list.

Ahhhhh.... Vintage will always be Vintage!

I agree.

Peace,

-Troy

[Raph Caron]

The logical consequence of only banning cards for logistical reasons is that Vintage is full of very powerful Magic cards. It is the only format in which Black Lotus, the Moxes, Balance, Yawgmoth's Will, and so on are free to roam.

I guess Balance is going to stay restricted.

My dream of having the pillars restricted is, despite what is being said in the article, getting closer. Mana Drain decks will continue to dominate, thanks to the no-ban philosophy. But then, what's left to restrict? Unless Wizards print another dredge-esque mechanic, we're stuck with the same problem.

*returns to Legacy*

[hitman]

While I think that the restriction of Thirst for Knowledge is annoying, I think it's much less invasive to people's decks than the last restrictions.  I disagree with the people saying that it won't affect Tezzeret much.  This was the last draw engine that wasn't really conditional on big mana or some appreciable drawback.  Due to their recent, apparent policy of restricting blue engines, the format will obviously move to tutoring as a replacement.  There is even evidence for this in their recent unrestrictions.  I think they want the format to be vulnerable to cards that are good against tutoring.  Tutoring is easier to disrupt than card drawing.

However, I think that all these, in my opinion, unnecessary restrictions are due to a flawed restriction "policy" in the past.  By taking out cards like Gifts Ungiven, Gush, Fact or Fiction, etc.  They've limited the diversity of the format.  It's generally best to attack a  blue-based deck by engine, not win condition.  A format with varied draw engines have a varied deck viability because each engine is weak to different forms of disruption.  All the cards I just mentioned are weak to mana denial in one form or another.  If they wanted to boost the strength of other archetypes like Fish or Workshops, why did they restrict cards that were weaker to those type of decks? 

I think they've done nothing for the last several restriction notices to boost other archetypes because we can still tutor for Hurkyl's Recall or Swords to Plowshares or Tormod's Crypt or.......fill in the blank.  Mana Drain and Thirst for Knowledge wasn't a problem.  The versatility of tutoring is a problem for weaker archetypes because so many silver bullets have been printed to handle them in the past.  We have two mana "Wrath of God" in the form of Serenity, Sower of Temptation for creatures, ridiculously efficient graveyard-hosers, so on and so forth.  The printing of Mindlock Orb and the un-restriction of tutors may be a sign that Wizards wants to make Vintage more tutor-dependent because it's easier for them to print something for us and other formats that addresses that problem.  They may print some cards for Standard that tutor and various solutions to it.  To print cards that are strong against card drawing would make no sense in Standard because the draw spells they print now don't even approach the power of the draw spells we have in Vintage.

[benthetenor]

What pleased me about this article is that they have come out and stated specifically why they ban cards, and thus why they would not ban Time Vault. I'm really excited because their reasoning hasn't changed, despite the opinion of some that it will have to at some point. Also, it pleased me that they noted that this is the smallest B/R list since 1999, which is something that I'm glad to see they're striving towards.

And, of course, I'm glad that they gave it an actual article. While I'm still on the fence about restricted Thirst for Knowledge, I can see their position and how they really didn't have any other options.

[silvernail]

I thoroughly applaud their efforts to understand Vintage and make reasonable explanations for what they restrict / un restirct .

They pretty much correctly identified the basic decks that are the long standing essential decks of vintage.

The real pickle here is how to handle mana drain decks, and the restrictions over the past few years (brainstorm, gifts,now thirst and other things that effect blue based decks) are aimed at this goal.

No matter what they do short of restricting force or drain will just result in new draw engines coming up.

I think the correct response has already been noted here - design some cards that will effect vintage strategies.

[thorme]

Overall, I am a big fan of the changes and found their arguments rational, but was annoyed at the below statement in the article:

Restricting Mana Drain might eliminate blue as a deck entirely, and it also would take away a large part of what makes Vintage special to many of its players.

First of all, the initial part of that statement is ridiculous...blue-based decks with many of the power blue restricted cards won't suddenly disappear with the lack of 3 mana drains.  That one doesn't bother me too much since I'm not yet convinced mana drain's restriction is a good idea anyway.  What really annoys me though is the addition of yet another criterion used for restricted list decision-making, and every bit as subjective as the Trinisphere "unfun" test...sigh.

[MirariKnight]

Overall, I am a big fan of the changes and found their arguments rational, but was annoyed at the below statement in the article:

Restricting Mana Drain might eliminate blue as a deck entirely, and it also would take away a large part of what makes Vintage special to many of its players.

First of all, the initial part of that statement is ridiculous...blue-based decks with many of the power blue restricted cards won't suddenly disappear with the lack of 3 mana drains.  That one doesn't bother me too much since I'm not yet convinced mana drain's restriction is a good idea anyway.  What really annoys me though is the addition of yet another criterion used for restricted list decision-making, and every bit as subjective as the Trinisphere "unfun" test...sigh.

This for me was the most satisfying part of the article. What would the point of vintage be then? It doesn't seem at all arbitrary, in fact it seems to be speaking directly to the intent of the format: to allow as many cards as possible. Vintage is the only format where Drain is legal, and thus it is one of the defining characteristics of the format, and, at least for me, the reason I play Vintage over Legacy. I'm glad to know my 4 Drains will always be playable.
As far as their reasoning on Thirst, I can't say I'm too happy. I guess they felt they had to do something, but I'm firmly in the camp of allowing all the blue engines to compete rather than eliminating them entirely. There really isn't any reliable way to draw cards anymore and it's more annoying than format-balancing.
Unrestrictions I'm happy with, and overall I think this is a positive thing for the format.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

I love how they say "we don't ban cards" but don't touch power-level errata with a 10-foot pole despite the fact that they openly admit that getting rid of vault "would solve the Tezzeret problem cleanly". Its not like there aren't dozens of other cards that still have power-level erratas anyways. TfK is nowhere near worthy of restriction and they know it. They're just so desperate to look like they're doing something without admiting their incompetance by unrestricting obvious solution cards like Gush.

[thorme]

Vintage is the only format where Drain is legal, and thus it is one of the defining characteristics of the format, and, at least for me, the reason I play Vintage over Legacy. I'm glad to know my 4 Drains will always be playable.

And of the many players I've known over the years, at least one that I can think of quit playing Vintage specifically because of mana drain's dominance.  The reasons people play are varied, what they like and dislike about the format are quite diverse, thus the subjectivity of "what makes Vintage special".

[LotusHead]

While I think that the restriction of Thirst for Knowledge is annoying, I think it's much less invasive to people's decks than the last restrictions.  I disagree with the people saying that it won't affect Tezzeret much.  This was the last draw engine that wasn't really conditional on big mana or some appreciable drawback. 

Compulsive Research (or Perilous Research and the super rare Strategic Planning) are very similar to Thirst and could be easy replacements for Thirst.

I don't like restricting cards "just cuz we wanna hurt blue decks", but those three do something similar.  Thirst for Knowledge is an instant, which is part of it's appeal, but maybe vintage NEEDS more Sorcery Based Card Drawing for balance. Maybe.

[Lurker101]

I appreciated the article and am happy with the unrestrictions but I think the best way to increase deck diversity would be to keep thirst unrestricted and then unrestrict some of the other blue draw engines that aren't super broken to enable more deck variety. It would be great if they unrestricted Thirst, Gush,Fact, Frantic Search, and Ponder all at once. I think some older decks/already established decks would get more powerful while new decks could emerge. It would be great for format diversity and only two of those engines are drain based and the only one that would see play in most Tezz decks would be thirst but it, like lotushead mentioned, would be played in other decks too.

[hitman]

Compulsive Research (or Perilous Research and the super rare Strategic Planning) are very similar to Thirst and could be easy replacements for Thirst.

I don't like restricting cards "just cuz we wanna hurt blue decks", but those three do something similar.  Thirst for Knowledge is an instant, which is part of it's appeal, but maybe vintage NEEDS more Sorcery Based Card Drawing for balance. Maybe.

All the cards you named, except Strategic Planning, have very appreciable drawbacks to a deck that wants to develop card advantage.  If you're discarding lands to draw cards you're less likely to make land drops, arguably more important than drawing cards.  If you're sacrificing permanents you're most likely sacrificing mana sources, less than ideal for a deck trying to develop card advantage.  Card advantage and developed mana bases go hand in hand.  In general, the more mana you have, the more cards you're able to draw.  If you're sacrificing your mana production to draw cards, you're bottlenecking your own mana base.  The cards you draw become worthless because you can't even cast them.

I'm not convinced Strategic Planning is better than Impulse or Telling Time.  Both dig just as deep but have wider applications.  I know Strategic Planning sets up a slightly faster Yawgmoth's Will but at the cost of resilience.

[Lurker101]

Compulsive Research (or Perilous Research and the super rare Strategic Planning) are very similar to Thirst and could be easy replacements for Thirst.

I don't like restricting cards "just cuz we wanna hurt blue decks", but those three do something similar.  Thirst for Knowledge is an instant, which is part of it's appeal, but maybe vintage NEEDS more Sorcery Based Card Drawing for balance. Maybe.

What about Careful Consideration as a replacement for thirst?

[MirariKnight]

Does anyone else like Three Wishes? I know it's not really drawing but it's and instant unlike the other options. My only concern is the  in the cost.

[LordHomerCat]

I approve entirely of this article.  Everything said was pretty much what we had figured out already, but it was especially nice to hear Tom articulate that:

1) Mana Drain will not be restricted unless there is absolutely no other option.
2) There is no banning of cards for Power Level.  Period.  So stop suggesting it.
3) They have realized that Unrestrictions can be a valuable tool to keep decks in check (not just restrictions).

I think that while the so-called Buehler era of vintage was characterized by a very steady B&R List and a very Hands-off approach from the DCI, this Lauer era will continue to be marked by a much more aggressive DCI strategy and a much more turbulent Vintage metagame.  Personally, if something changes every 6 months to keep the format fresh and keep everyone working on figuring out the best deck, I think that is a very good thing for Vintage, even if it means I can't be nearly as lazy about testing and playing outside of tournaments.

Also, Thank You Tom for listening to our whining about how you guys dont explain your thinking to us.  Transparency is so incredible.

[elgrillo]

I've also seen Thoughtcast being played in Tezz shells.
It seems very good to me.

Back on topic, this article makes me happy because it shows some serious interest in vintage and the vintage players. While I'm not 100% sure that restricting TFK was the way to go, I think it will make an impact in drain decks.

I usually play dark ritual decks here. But for some reason, after the B/R list showed up, I really wanted to play some Tezz deck. I guess I fell for it because it seems to be a damn powerful archetype no matter how they try to put it down (unless they ban time vault  ).

[Troy_Costisick]

I think that while the so-called Buehler era of vintage was characterized by a very steady B&R List and a very Hands-off approach from the DCI, this Lauer era will continue to be marked by a much more aggressive DCI strategy and a much more turbulent Vintage metagame.  Personally, if something changes every 6 months to keep the format fresh and keep everyone working on figuring out the best deck, I think that is a very good thing for Vintage, even if it means I can't be nearly as lazy about testing and playing outside of tournaments.

I agree to a point.  So far, the more agressive approach created a 9 month run of a single dominant deck.  We'll see how things are going forward in this new Lauer era.

Peace,

-Troy

[Smmenen]

I think there is one big, big piece that people have overlooked which I'll reiterate i my article next week:

The restricted list is now, more than ever, blue.    There are more blue restricted cards than every other color combined (16 to 13).

Virtually EVERY single card that isn't blue or isn't primarily abused by Force of Will decks is now unrestricted.   If your deck isn't blue, it's probably full of four-ofs.   Non-blue decks look increasingly normal in this format.  

That means that the older ways of looking at the restricted list: tutors, accelleration, etc are now just wrong and antiquated.   If you are a mana acceleration or a tutor, but you aren't used by blue, you are unrestricted or unrestrictable.  That explains Chrome Mox, Grim Monolith, Mox Diamond, Dark Ritual, Mishra’s Workshop, and so on. But if you are abused by a Force of Will deck, you are still going to be restricted.    This is hugely important for understanding the list.  

[Akuma]

I'm firmly in the camp of allowing all the blue engines to compete rather than eliminating them entirely.

This. How does WotC think they can achieve diversity when we have this:

25 Restricted Cards
14 Lands
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
1 Darksteel Colossus / Inkwell Leviathan
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Voltaic Key

TOTAL = 50

I'm glad WotC took the time to address why they made changes. Definitely a step in the right direction, much better than before.

The problem with their current strategy lies with how little effect the restriction of blue cards has now. -3 Thirst will not lead to any real change. You can stick almost anything that isn't garbage in there and the loss becomes negligible (ie. mostly Thoughtcast, but Impulse and Strategic Planning could be used too). So Tezz decks don't really take much of a hit from this (tutoring is also effective for their strategy), but Slaver and Bomberman get reamed.

*returns to Legacy*