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Author Topic: B/R Changes Explained - An Actual Vintage Article on MTG.com  (Read 12534 times)
zeus-online
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« Reply #30 on: June 26, 2009, 06:02:15 pm »

Actually my count on cards i'm very likely/almost certain to play in a Tez deck right now is 52.
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« Reply #31 on: June 26, 2009, 06:09:40 pm »

I applaud the attention to Vintage, but I was puzzled that the author's attempt to promote diversity in the format was to maintain the same old "4 Pillars" that have defined the format for the past decade.  While that goal may aim to propound an equilibrium among the Drain/Bazaar/Ritual/Shop/(Null Rod?) pillars, it doesn't seem geared to advance diversity beyond them.  So now we've sped up the format for other deck pillars to theoretically be stronger vs. Drain.  The new options for Vintage are to play a deck that Tinkers for Time Vault, one that Enlightened Tutors for it, one that deactivates Time Vault with Null Rod, one that Crop Rotates to Strip-lock the Vault player, or uses Bazaar/Ritual to win on turn 1 or turn 2 before the Time Vault is found and activated.  If the latter classes of hate decks' Plan A doesn't work, they can easily include their own Time Vault as backup.  Format distortion to the max.

I like the design new cards approach outlined above by some other contributors.  Enlightened, Cropper, and Entomb all search the library so the observation that an anti-tutoring tech may be in the works behind the scenes is apt.  Aven is the best one available right now, but an effect like that needs to come down for 1 mana (and be symmetrical), not 2W with Flash & Flying.  

Good discussion.  
« Last Edit: June 27, 2009, 05:01:23 am by brianpk80 » Logged

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« Reply #32 on: June 26, 2009, 08:23:35 pm »

I applaud the attention to Vintage, but I was puzzled that the author's attempt to promote diversity in the format was to maintain the same old "4 Pillars" that have defined the format for the past decade.  While that goal may aim to propound an equilibrium among the Drain/Bazaar/Ritual/Shop/(Null Rod?) pillars, it doesn't seem geared to advance diversity beyond them.  So now we've sped up the format for other deck pillars to theoretically be stronger vs. Drain.  The new options for Vintage are to play a deck that Tinkers for Time Vault, one that Enlightened Tutors for it, one that deactivates Time Vault with Null Rod, one that Crop Rotates to Strip-lock the Vault player, or uses Bazaar/Ritual to win on turn 1 or turn 2 before the Time Vault is found and activated.  If the latter classes of hate decks' Plan A doesn't work, they can easily include their own Time Vault as backup. 

I like the design new cards approached outlined above by some other contributors.  Enlightened, Cropper, and Entomb all search the library so the observation that an anti-tutoring tech may be in the works behind the scenes is apt.  Aven is the best one available right now, but an effect like that needs to come down for 1 mana (and be symmetrical), not 2W with Flash & Flying. 

Good discussion. 
I think if such a card came down for 1 mana it would be too powerful and unfun. The best job they've done at symmetrical anti-tutoring so far would be Mindlock Orb which should probably see more play than it does (especially now with crop rotation and entomb back) but mindlock costs  {3} {U} which I think is a fair price for a control deck not playing too many tutors (i.e. Workshop in general but Drains could do this too in a different shell than Tezz). Also isn't mindcensor good enough for the rest of the decks wanting to play tutor disruption (like Fish)?
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« Reply #33 on: June 26, 2009, 08:26:22 pm »

Quote
Restricting Mana Drain might eliminate blue as a deck entirely, and it also would take away a large part of what makes Vintage special to many of its players.

First of all, the initial part of that statement is ridiculous...blue-based decks with many of the power blue restricted cards won't suddenly disappear with the lack of 3 mana drains.
That was my thought when I read that, too.

What I got out of that section of the article was that they wanted Tezzeret decks to be less powerful
and didn't want to restrict Mana Drain unless it was absolutely necessary.
But, they restricted Thirst because it was the only choice besides restricting Mana Drain.

So, if Tezz doesn't stop dominating, does that mean Mana Drain gets restricted?
It sounds like it.

Personally, I hope Drain gets restricted the next time around.
If this happens, I think Tezzeret and other blue decks will still be viable, and probably still dominant,
but not to the same degree they have been.
Perhaps this would even lead to more Vintage deck diversity than there is now!
Vintage deck diversity... The thought thrills me so!
« Last Edit: June 26, 2009, 08:30:17 pm by TopSecret » Logged

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« Reply #34 on: June 27, 2009, 02:58:38 am »

First you say this:

Quote
Personally, I hope Drain gets restricted the next time around.

Then you say this:

Quote
Vintage deck diversity... The thought thrills me so!

I must have missed something, how would restricting Mana Drain lead to deck diversity? Take a look at your average Tezz deck, it looks like a Highlander deck as it is.
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« Reply #35 on: June 27, 2009, 04:02:22 am »

I would much rather have a few bannings then the restriction of drain, workshop, bazaar or ritual. Even if drain was restricted we would still have will, tinker, vault.dec.

I'm actually kinda sad that they stated that they will not do this.
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« Reply #36 on: June 27, 2009, 05:12:55 am »

I think if such a card came down for 1 mana it would be too powerful and unfun. The best job they've done at symmetrical anti-tutoring so far would be Mindlock Orb which should probably see more play than it does (especially now with crop rotation and entomb back) but mindlock costs  {3} {U} which I think is a fair price for a control deck not playing too many tutors (i.e. Workshop in general but Drains could do this too in a different shell than Tezz). Also isn't mindcensor good enough for the rest of the decks wanting to play tutor disruption (like Fish)?

In today's environment, barely.  It's at the peak end of CMC for Fish creatures and rarely sees turn 1 play absent a Lotus.  Aven and Mindlock Orb are much too slow to handle Entomb->Dragon, Crop->Strip, or Enlightened->Vault/Fastbond/Oath of Druids, or whatever the new unrestrictions unleash as the format speeds up.  I don't think a potent tool to put a check on fast tutoring is any more powerful or "unfun" than Keying a Time Vault every turn. 
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« Reply #37 on: June 27, 2009, 09:54:54 pm »

First you say this:

Quote
Personally, I hope Drain gets restricted the next time around.

Then you say this:

Quote
Vintage deck diversity... The thought thrills me so!

I must have missed something, how would restricting Mana Drain lead to deck diversity? Take a look at your average Tezz deck, it looks like a Highlander deck as it is.


If Tezz becomes worse, it effectively makes other decks better,
since they have to compete against Tezz.
So, if restricting Mana Drain drops Tezz's power level,
it could make decks be more viable choices to play.
If other decks become more viable choices to play,
then people might play them more often.
If people start playing decks that aren't Tezz more often,
then there could be more deck diversity.

I am aware that Tezz already looks like a Highlander deck as it is.
However, most Tezz decks do play multiple Mana Drain.
A lot of Tezz decks play a full playset of Mana Drain.
Restricting Mana Drain will probably not make Tezz less of a Highlander deck.
But if restricting Mana Drain forces Tezz players to play cards that are less powerful than Mana Drain as a result,
this could make Tezz a weaker deck overall.
This could lead to more deck diversity, for the reasons listed in the last paragraph.

I do not know exactly how much difference restricting Mana Drain will make in Tezz's power level.
In my opinion, I think after such a restriction Tezz will still be dominant.
However, I do think that Tezz will be less dominant without access to multiple Mana Drain.
If Tezz becomes less dominant than it is now, it could lead to greater deck diversity.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2009, 10:00:32 pm by TopSecret » Logged

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« Reply #38 on: June 27, 2009, 11:40:46 pm »

Assuming something else does need to be restricted in the Drain archetype, I'd sooner opt for Force of Will getting the axe than Mana Drain.  It would much more significantly hamper Drain's ability to protect its sudden explosive wins and expose it more fully to the types of counter-strategies the DCI wants to promote.  With Force out of the picture, we can safely reconsider the restrictions of Thirst for Knowledge and perhaps Gifts Ungiven. 

Restricting Mana Drain would leave a sour taste for many reasons.  Mana Drain x4 is a legendary staple in Vintage and a big draw on the secondary market.  Limiting Drain to 1 per deck would look desperate and still wouldn't solve the problem, which is the field-wide distortion of the 8,000th re-wording of Time Vault.
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« Reply #39 on: June 28, 2009, 01:31:56 pm »

restricting FOW is the worst thing that oculd happen to vintage. Beltcher and grim long for everyone! even ichorid would be to slow.
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« Reply #40 on: June 28, 2009, 03:15:26 pm »

FoW restricted would be terrible. Better start stocking up on those Disrupting Shoals...
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« Reply #41 on: June 28, 2009, 03:18:13 pm »

FoW restricted would be terrible. Better start stocking up on those Disrupting Shoals, Gemstone Caverns, Spell Snares and...Force Spike?...
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« Reply #42 on: June 28, 2009, 03:38:21 pm »

Let me remind everyone that discussions about hypothetical changes to the Vintage B/R list are not allowed outside the Advanced Vintage Forum.
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