TMD online project: hoping to make waves with the B&R list through MWS.

[Lurker101]

Attention to any TMD members and readers. I have an idea for an experiment with the B&R list. Based on the opinions of people that I've read and talked to I will make some changes to the B&R list for testing purposes. I would like people to post the relevant portions of the MWS gamelogs in this thread with all the plays involving the cards that I'm removing from this modified B&R list bolded. It's not required but I would like the results of the project to be easy to e-mail to the DCI. I expect this project to take at least a couple months depending on how many people decide to participate in this project. After enough results are in let's see if the DCI will take more unrestrictions into consideration, but the only way to do that is results. Ok, now to the business.
The following cards are unrestricted for the purposes of this project:
Frantic Search
Ponder
Thirst for Knowledge
Gush
Fact or Fiction
Balance
Flash
Burning Wish
If during this experiment, one or more of these cards is proven to be too broken I will restrict it again but only after a certain number of games and at least 2 months of being unrestricted. If you are participating in this project then advertise your MWS games as TMD Project Only. Also, the rules will be the Magic 2010 rules and the rest of the B&R list will remain unchanged for now. This thread is not to discuss the B&R list but to test these cards as 4 ofs back in the format and see if we can get at least a few of them unrestricted. If you think one of these cards should be re-restricted in the project don't complain, prove your point by breaking the card as wide open as possible against a variety of decks in the field. I expect innovation, I expect new decks and builds to come up (please post your decklists as you test them), and I even expect a couple of old decks to resurface. If you want to change Vintage and possibly bring in a new golden age then participate!
If you are interested please post a response.

[vassago]

As I said before, I am more than willing to entertain this idea.

[bluemage55]

I'm interested in the general idea, but I think the number of cards you're testing with here is too ambitious.  With that many cards unrestricted (and many of which would have significant impacts), the metaame will be completely different from anything resembling the real one.  It would also be difficult to draw conclusions about the real B&R list if a resulting diverse meta is only possible with a larger number of unrestrictions, which are unlikely from the DCI.  With that in mind, I think you should start out smaller, and test having one or two major cards unrestricted at a time before going for something like this.

Burning Wish can definitely come off after being neutered under M2010 rules, so that's not a big deal.  Removing TfK just means that we will be playing under the same meta as we have for a while now, so that's not a huge problem either.  But the unrestrictions of any of the other cards would likely make big waves.  I'd like to see this project start off gradually.  In addition, it would be more appropriate if participants in this project all have a say in which cards we'll be restricting, rather than having one person arbitrarily decide.

[vassago]

  In addition, it would be more appropriate if participants in this project all have a say in which cards we'll be restricting, rather than having one person arbitrarily decide.

This is very relevant. I think there should be a poll. Or possibly test individual cards one at a time for a certain amount of time and see what the results yield. 

[A_Outcast]

im willing to help test as long as im online.

best place to reach me is yahoo (morphreader2) or via a PM on here.

[Lurker101]

Ok, what other cards are you guys thinking of? Also I'll try and narrow down the list. First off, I will remove Balance. In the last article on the vintage b&r list they alluded that they weren't going to unrestrict balance anytime soon even though it seems unrestrictable. Burning Wish and Thirst aren't a problem as pointed out by Bluemage 55 so they will remain unrestricted. I'm pretty set on testing the other cards in this format though. I can't set up a poll but you can vote by simply posting the cards out of the remaining 5 (Flash, Fact, Gush, Ponder, and Frantic Search) what you would most like to see in this "test" format as well as any other cards you may want but please vote on power not pleasure. I don't care if Demonic Tutor is your favorite card or if in the above listed Ponder may be your favorite card. Vote on the most rational choices, things that are realistic and if you want to bring up other cards please be real about it (i.e. the dci will probably not ever unrestrict merchant scroll nor will they let Brainstorm and Ponder be together in the same format).
Other Cards to Consider:
Demonic Consultation (Smemmen brought this up recently)
Balance (I'll cross it off for now but if it gets enough votes for testing it's in)
Library (I don't agree with this but if it gets enough votes...)
Gifts (Often gets an "I win" pile and is too powerful for my taste but if you want to try it go ahead and vote...)
Brainstorm (In this experiment it is either brainstorm or ponder you can't have both. I think Brainstorm is the stronger card as far as raw power goes but for consistency Ponder is probably the stronger card. Choose one but don't play favorites. IMO Ponder has a better chance at getting unrestricted than Brainstorm.)
Mise (This is the long shot, it is a silver bordered Unhinged card. However I think WotC would maybe print this as a with a new name for a draw spell with standard, extended, or legacy in mind and it would be an auto-restrict in vintage. If you vote for Mise you're just voting to unban it for testing purposes. It will be automatically restricted. If you vote this card legal it will turn into an extremely hypothetical experiment as well, so I put this out there but I encourage you not to vote for it. It has too many synergies with brainstorm, Ponder, and Sensei's Divining Top to consider except as a restricted draw spell. I will not unrestrict Brainstorm or Ponder if Mise is voted in. There are still a few reasons to vote for it as it is a powerful draw spell and Vintage could end up with a black bordered version of it sometime, and also shouldn't a few spells from every set be legal in vintage? I can think of a couple of other silver bordered cards that could end up in the black bordered "real world" of magic, but this is the most realistic. I also realize that legalizing Mise would be a very radical move for the DCI to make and is very unlikely unless it is reprinted with a new name in a black bordered set. This would be more of a future-future league kind of vote.)
and if there are any other reasonable cards you can think of please bring them up.
The card with the top 5 most votes will win and be added after the initial testing pool of 5 cards we have now is played for a bit.

Also to those that have already committed to this project, please start building decks and informing any other vintage players or TMD members that you know that have access to MWS. The more people, the more decks, and the better and more convincing experiment!

[zeus-online]

Are the participants limited to using only 4 of one of the cards, or could i use say 4 facts and 2 gushes if i wanted to?

Here are the cards i'd suggest:
Balance
Brainstorm
Burning Wish
Fact or Fiction
Flash
Frantic Search
Gush
Library of Alexandria
Memory Jar
Ponder
Thirst for Knowledge
Trinisphere
Windfall
Yawgmoth’s Bargain

Now clearly some of these cards are very broken, but as this is just an experiment i'd love to see if some of the "High cost" cards are really all that good in multiples.
The cards i'm referring to here are Bargain and Memory jar. I could definetly see not including those 2 as they are very likely to be way too broken.

I've excluded gifts as it's just too easy to win with it (Time vault, voltaic key, vampiric tutor/will, mystical tutor/regrowth)..Not really sure if i need a test to prove that.

Keep in mind that if too many cards are unrestricted they may seem fair due to the power of the other decks/cards.

And if you're only willing to include either ponder or brainstorm i would go with brainstorm, it's in my opinion more skill intensive and thus making it more fun.

[bluemage55]

Ponder is at the top of my list.  I find it somewhat ridiculous that a card which is legal in Standard is restricted in Vintage.  Of all the cards restricted in the overly wide hammer of the Vintage Apocalypse last year, Ponder is the least offensive by far.  Restricting it hurts blue decks in general sure, but non-Drain blue decks are hurt more by it's loss than Drain.

[M.Solymossy]

Tezzeret would be DUMB with 4 Brainstorms.   Give me 4 Brainstorms and 4 Ponders, and I'm willing to bet it's still the best deck in the format.

[bluemage55]

Tezzeret would be DUMB with 4 Brainstorms.   Give me 4 Brainstorms and 4 Ponders, and I'm willing to bet it's still the best deck in the format.

I would argue that unrestricting Brainstorms is better for other decks than for Tez.  Brainstorm's filtering power is most easily replaced or excluded inTez; it was missed most in decks like U-oriented versions of Fish, which fell off the face of the planet after last June.  Other Drain decks such as Slaver and Oath which run more dead cards are hurt more by the loss of BS than Tez.  Brainstorms also strengthen Ritual+Will decks such as TPS that naturally prey on Drain decks.

Overall, the unrestriction of BS would probably aid deck diversity, but wouldn't topple Tez on its own.

[Lurker101]

Are the participants limited to using only 4 of one of the cards, or could i use say 4 facts and 2 gushes if i wanted to?


You could use as many of the unrestricted cards in a deck that you want to. So if you wanted 4 Facts and 2-4 Gushes that would be fine.

[Apollyon]

Ponder is at the top of my list.  I find it somewhat ridiculous that a card which is legal in Standard is restricted in Vintage.  Of all the cards restricted in the overly wide hammer of the Vintage Apocalypse last year, Ponder is the least offensive by far.  Restricting it hurts blue decks in general sure, but non-Drain blue decks are hurt more by it's loss than Drain.

Mind's Desire.

Also, Lurker, please don't unrestrict Balance. That card ruins formats as a 4-of. Turn 1 Mind Twist for 1W is so good.

[Lurker101]

Ponder is at the top of my list.  I find it somewhat ridiculous that a card which is legal in Standard is restricted in Vintage.  Of all the cards restricted in the overly wide hammer of the Vintage Apocalypse last year, Ponder is the least offensive by far.  Restricting it hurts blue decks in general sure, but non-Drain blue decks are hurt more by it's loss than Drain.

Mind's Desire.

Also, Lurker, please don't unrestrict Balance. That card ruins formats as a 4-of. Turn 1 Mind Twist for 1W is so good.

Balance is crossed out right now. I'll add a few more cards to the list but multiple mind's desires kind of scare me.

[Apollyon]

Ponder is at the top of my list.  I find it somewhat ridiculous that a card which is legal in Standard is restricted in Vintage.  Of all the cards restricted in the overly wide hammer of the Vintage Apocalypse last year, Ponder is the least offensive by far.  Restricting it hurts blue decks in general sure, but non-Drain blue decks are hurt more by it's loss than Drain.

Mind's Desire.

Also, Lurker, please don't unrestrict Balance. That card ruins formats as a 4-of. Turn 1 Mind Twist for 1W is so good.

Balance is crossed out right now. I'll add a few more cards to the list but multiple mind's desires kind of scare me.

It's an example of a card that is fine in Standard but restricted in Vintage. In no way do I want to see Mind's Desire as a 4-of. I could routinely win on a Desire for 6 with the old DeathLong, back in the day. Never mind chaining Desires.

The Balance comment was aimed at the suggestion that Balance become a 4-of from both you and zeus-online.

[bluemage55]

Mind's Desire.

Mind's Desire is an example of a card that is broken in conjunction with certain cards that are found only in Vintage and Legacy.  Trinisphere would be another example, as its broken-ness exists only in Vintage due to the presence of Mishra's Workshop (it was never banned in other formats).  Ponder does not fall into this category of cards.  All it really does is smooth out draws.  It's played (or was played) for the exact same reason in both Vintage and Standard.

[Qube]

I like the Idea,

I would like test those cards:

Ponder
Flash
Gush
Fact or Fiction
Frantic Search
Strip Mine
Library of Alexandria
Regrowth
Burning Wish

I had not the time at the moment to expain them but, try it out!

[Lurker101]

I like the Idea,

I would like test those cards:

Ponder
Flash
Gush
Fact or Fiction
Frantic Search
Strip Mine
Library of Alexandria
Regrowth
Burning Wish

I had not the time at the moment to expain them but, try it out!

No on Strip Mine, way too powerful as a 4 of. The others all seem worth trying. So I'm getting alot of votes for the original list of Fact, Gush, Ponder, Flash, Burning Wish, Thirst, and Frantic Search so we can definitely start out with those ASAP (remember to post gamelogs here after you play). Other big cards to vote for are Library, Brainstorm, Windfall,Regrowth and Memory Jar (which honestly doesn't look great in multiples to me without multiple Tinkers or un-errated Transmute Artifacts. Honestly, I have found Magus of the Jar to be easier to cheat into play and break and my Magus deck still barely has any room for disruption. Memory Jar could be safe.).  I seriously considered Bargain but it's just too good and easier to get into play in a deck that would just abuse the hell out of it. After about a month of voting for the above selected cards I will add the top 2 to the unrestricted list but remember BS and Ponder play too well together and so do Library and Frantic Search so if Brainstorm and Library get voted in expect Ponder and Frantic Search to go. I encourage people to start playing so that we can get some results and to keep voting as well.

[Lurker101]

I think just for kicks It would be interesting to see a Blue deck with only 1-of's outside of Force of Will.  It would be intresting to see how well does as sorta a base line against blue and non-blue decks.

Here is a proposal for the deck:

4 Force of Will
Mana Drain
Red Elemental Blast
Pyroblast
Spell Snare
Mana Leak
Negate
Duress
Rebuild

Tezzeret, the Seeker
Darksteel Colossus
Tinker
Time Vault
Voltaic Key

Ancestral Recall
Time Walk
Demonic Tutor
Vampiric Tutor
Yawgmoth's Will
FoF
Gifts
Intuition
Thirst for Knowledge
Merchant Scroll
Night's Whisper
Ponder
Lim-Dul's Vault
Brainstorm
Repeal

====================
Sensei's Divining Top
Goblin Welder
Mindslaver
Memory Jar
Entomb
---- OR ------------
Sensei's Divining Top
Trinket Mage
Transmute Artifact
Painter
Grindstone
---- OR ------------
Dark Ritual
Cabal Ritual
Timetwister
Memory Jar
Empty the Warens
====================

Polluted Delta
Flooded Strand
Bloodstained Mire
Underground Sea
Watery Grave
Volcanic Island
Steam Vents
1 Snow-Covered Island
2 Island
City of Brass
Shivan Reef
Underground Sea
Cephalid Coliseum
Urbrog, Tomb of Yawgmoth

5 Mox
Sol Ring
Lotus
Petal
Crypt
Vault
Library
Academy

////////////////////////

Sideboard:

Tormod's Crypt
Relic of Progenitus
Yxlid Jailor
Extirpate
Pithing Needle
Ingot Chewer
Rack and Ruin
Empty the Warrens (if not maindeck)
Energy Flux
Hurkyls Recall
Sower of Temptation
Threads of Disloyalty
Psychatog
Thoughtsieze
Engineered Explosives

It would be interesting to see how this deck would do in this format. Harlequin brought it up on another thread about the topic. I might test it a few times. Also how do people think Remora would do with these unrestrictions? I think Remora would still be a pretty solid draw engine even with all these cards available.

[Lurker101]

Has anyone started doing this yet? PM me for a game.
Aim: MTGplayer101
MSN: galenandrews@gmail.com

Don't e-mail my gmail account for games please.

[Lurker101]

If the people interested could also post their AIM/MSN  info for games that would be great. So far, as far as I know, no testing has been done. I am disappointed. We might actually be able to make some changes and I have a few decks built.

[honestabe]

AIM: tnodz

Hit me up for a game

[DPCyric]

I really think something like this needs to be tested with a ton of card unrestricted and then working to a smaller list if things prove broken. I would suggest unrestricting these cards:

Brainstorm
Burning Wish
Fact or Fiction
Flash
Frantic Search
Gifts Ungiven
Gush
Library of Alexandria
Ponder
Regrowth
Thirst for Knowledge
Trinisphere

Honestly the only cards I am worried about on this list are Frantic Search and Regrowth however the decks I am worried about them in may be kept in check by Trinistax. Several of these cards were restricted because of the DCI's failure to recognize Merchant Scroll as problematic and with Merchant Scroll now restricted they are probably safe to let loose. I believe these changes would make Control Slaver, BBS, Flash, Grow and maybe Gifts playable again without really pushing any decks out of the current meta. If the list you decide upon ends up very similar to that then I will probably test this format because I intend writing an article suggestion the unrestricting of all those cards at once (I feel that is the only way it would balance out properly) so experience in a format like that would help with my vision.

[honestabe]

well, I think we figured that flash still needs to be banned


3 maindecked, plus 4 cunning wish, PLUS merchant scroll and demonic equalls 9 ways to grab flash.  VERY easy to do with 4 ponders

[Lurker101]

well, I think we figured that flash still needs to be banned


3 maindecked, plus 4 cunning wish, PLUS merchant scroll and demonic equalls 9 ways to grab flash.  VERY easy to do with 4 ponders

Yeah, unless you get the nuts it's still a little slower than it was though. Also you should add mystical tutor as 10 ways to get flash, but the sliver kill may falter against fishy aggro decks and we haven't been testing those. I say it's still a busted card and people who say that "without merchant scroll it won't nearly as effective" are wrong but it should be tested more before we say it still needs restriction. One kill falters to graveyard hate, one kill falters to multiple blocking creatures, and one kill falters to null rod.

[Smmenen]

well, I think we figured that flash still needs to be banned


3 maindecked, plus 4 cunning wish, PLUS merchant scroll and demonic equalls 9 ways to grab flash.  VERY easy to do with 4 ponders

Yeah, unless you get the nuts it's still a little slower than it was though. Also you should add mystical tutor as 10 ways to get flash, but the sliver kill may falter against fishy aggro decks and we haven't been testing those. I say it's still a busted card and people who say that "without merchant scroll it won't nearly as effective" are wrong but it should be tested more before we say it still needs restriction. One kill falters to graveyard hate, one kill falters to multiple blocking creatures, and one kill falters to null rod.

No, the argument is that without Merchant Scroll AND Brainstorm, Flash should be fair.  Brainstorm is incredibly important to Flash.  You'd rather have 2 Brainstorms than 1 Ancestral Recall in Flash, as both Patrick Chapin and I agreed.

[bluemage55]

If it comes down to it I'd much rather have unrestricted Brainstorm and leave Flash restricted.

[zeus-online]

If it comes down to it I'd much rather have unrestricted Brainstorm and leave Flash restricted.

2nd'ed....While brainstorm is certainly restrict worthy, i must admit that i had more fun playing with it as a 4-of then as a 1-of. It might even make combo playable again.

[DPCyric]

I would much rather have Flash unrestricted because it would add another deck to the format unlike Brainstorm which just improves already existing decks. In fact of the cards I listed Brainstorm is near the bottom of the cards I want to see unrestricted but it and Fact or Fiction are the only ones I would play multiples of. Anyhow I will be playing as soon as I get a deck list or two together and I will post my AIM SN when I am ready to play some matches.

[bluemage55]

I would much rather have Flash unrestricted because it would add another deck to the format unlike Brainstorm which just improves already existing decks. In fact of the cards I listed Brainstorm is near the bottom of the cards I want to see unrestricted but it and Fact or Fiction are the only ones I would play multiples of. Anyhow I will be playing as soon as I get a deck list or two together and I will post my AIM SN when I am ready to play some matches.

Your line of reasoning is flawed.  Unrestricted Flash makes one deck viable: Flash.  Unrestricted Brainstorm, on the other hand, might make blue Fish decks, Oath, and TPS viable again.

[DPCyric]

I would much rather have Flash unrestricted because it would add another deck to the format unlike Brainstorm which just improves already existing decks. In fact of the cards I listed Brainstorm is near the bottom of the cards I want to see unrestricted but it and Fact or Fiction are the only ones I would play multiples of. Anyhow I will be playing as soon as I get a deck list or two together and I will post my AIM SN when I am ready to play some matches.

Your line of reasoning is flawed.  Unrestricted Flash makes one deck viable: Flash.  Unrestricted Brainstorm, on the other hand, might make blue Fish decks, Oath, and TPS viable again.

No those decks are still playable in a format with Brainstorm being restricted just not top tier and they will just have to be decks that serve as role players when the meta is right for them to shine.