[Results] Vintage Side Event at U.S. Nationals 7/26/09

[hazard]

Regarding attendance, I would imagine the double p9 in Chicago the week prior, the double P9 in Pittsburgh the week after, and GenCon/Vintage Champs two weeks after that would be a factor in attendance. Most folks in the format cannot hit all of these so a Vintage event at Nationals might only be attracting those who play other formats as well.

[Webster]

Metagame Breakdown:

5 Time Vault Control (3 tezzeret, 2 no tezzeret)
4 Ichorid
3 Fish (2 BUG, 1 UGW)
1 Painter
1 Oath
1 5-Color Stax
1 Mono-Red Workshop Aggro
1 Ad Nauseam
1 TPS
1 1-Land Belcher
1 Suicide Black
1 Combo Elves
1 Goblins

Also, it should be noted that this was a no-proxy event.

All five Time Vault decks made top 8 as well as one of the Ichorid decks, the one 5-Color Stax deck, and one of the BUG fish decks.

If anyone wants to see a specific list, send a PM to me.

[T00L]

@ TK and Owen: The tezz list you guys ran looks a lot like what I ran in Honolulu. How was it for you guys? How were the impulses? Was the lack of a card advantage engine in exchange for a stronger card filtering engine good for you guys? I'm interested in hearing your thoughts.

P.S. Owen nice sb

Impluses seem good, even though they remind me of Keeper circa 2003.  Why not go one step further and put Cunning Wish main with Mystical, Gush, Misdirection, and removal in the side?

Are you trolling? Cause I'm pretty sure that's my gig.

I'm genuinely half-serious about this.  Cunning Wish demands no more of a "WTF?!?!" reaction than Impulses do


 ..seriously, Impulse??  WTF?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!

Your people and their way of life fascinate me.

[LSV]

I just wrote a pretty detailed tournament report for this on Channelfireball.com, although it is below some content about Standard. If you prefer to skip to the real magic, just CTRL+F Vintage and it should get ya there!

http://strategy.channelfireball.com/featured-articles/initial-technology-standard-after-nats-plus-bonus-vintage/

[2nd_lawl]

I just wrote a pretty detailed tournament report for this on Channelfireball.com, although it is below some content about Standard. If you prefer to skip to the real magic, just CTRL+F Vintage and it should get ya there!

http://strategy.channelfireball.com/featured-articles/initial-technology-standard-after-nats-plus-bonus-vintage/

Enjoyed the article, but whats the Rationale behind sowers in the main(in your proposed changes)? They seem so bad Vs Inkwell(which is the tinker target du jour for most of the recent tez lists ive seen).

[DarkfnTemplar]

Nice finish. 2 things:

1. So apparently non-proxy tournaments will have less attendance than proxied one? Hmm Ben Bleiweiss, hmmmmm. Maybe there's a reason why you don't want to prove your point with a SCG P9 no-proxy event?

2. It's great to see a Pro Player do well at vintage. Come to think about it, LSV has had a great year or so. Would I be reckless in saying that LSV is the greatest magic player we have seen in the last 1-2 years?

[LSV]

Sower is pretty awesome, as it is great against BUG fish, which I think is your most common bad matchup. It also has utility against plenty of other decks, particularly if people are on Colossus over Inkwell, which was predominately the choice at this event (most of the Tezz decks had DSC over Inkwell). Plus, if you play vs Tezz w Bobs like what I played, sower is a beating.

I don't think the proxy issue was the big problem, as the Vintage sanctioned event at GP Chicago (at least I think it was sanctioned, not 100% sure since I didn't play) got 80 people. If it actually was unsanctioned and w proxies, ignore this point. Granted, a Legacy GP would naturally get more people for Vintage, but I still expected way more than 22 at this one. I guess we will see how GenCon and the world champs goes, which unfortunately I don't plan on going to this year.

[marriedwithchildren]

My cousin and I decided to play out the match that LSV and Ochoa split.  Take into consideration we are not quite the skilled competitors that they are, I won with Ochoa's deck 2 out of 3 matches with an overall  record of 5-3 (2-1, 1-2, 2-0).  Fun decks to play, LSV your deck is no BS! what a tough deck!

[voltron00x]

I don't think the proxy issue was the big problem, as the Vintage sanctioned event at GP Chicago (at least I think it was sanctioned, not 100% sure since I didn't play) got 80 people. If it actually was unsanctioned and w proxies, ignore this point.

The Sunday Vintage event at GP: Chicago was unsanctioned, I believe it was 15 proxy.

[Sean Ryan]

With the rebalancing of Fish and Stax in the metgame, Oath should return as a significant player.  The increased presence of Oath is another reason I have opted for Night Whispers rather than Bob.  If Bob didn't come down early Whisper was better, giving me the cards immedietly rather than waiting 3 turns. 

With Welders and Bobs everywhere, I have been running red for the maindeck fire/ice plus sideboard options, but going green for the transformational sideboard may be better.  Do you think it's becoming necassary to run a maindeck answer to Welder-Bob-possibly even Goyf?  Maindeck Sower? Darkblast? Fire/Ice.  Sower doesn't fit once you board Oath but it may actually be a good maindeck singelton.

DSC vs Inkwell vs Sphinx will continue to be debated as each has it's own merits.  I tend toward the shroud of Inkwell because he is most needed in the Fish match up and there are so many Welders around.               

[LordHomerCat]

After reading your report LSV, I feel better about making mistakes.  I can only imagine sitting down paired against Pro Tour Champion Luis Scott-Vargas, and then game 2 watching him Oath his whole deck into the yard and then deck himself.  Probably takes away a little bit from the intimidation factor =p

[M.Solymossy]

LSV, the meat and bones of your list is very similar to what I played at the ICBM Open....

Our differences in the main:

Your cards (My differences)
2 Thoughtseize   ( 2 Duress)
1 Hurkyl's Recall (Rebuild)
1 Repeal  (Echoing Truth)
1 Fact or Fiction  (Didn't play)
1 Darksteel Colossus  (Splinx)
3 Tropical Island  (2 volcanics and a Lotus Petal)

My real questions are:

1) Did you ever worry about flipping 11 points to Dark Confidant?
2) Do you feel that the Oath board was worth not running Red Blasts?
3) Did you feel Dark Confidants were worth it, or would you run David's deck if this event were to run again tomorrow?

[LotusHead]

Where did this take place?

[conboy31]

Date: July 26, 2009
Event Location: Hyatt Regency Crown Center
Address: 2345 McGee Street
Kansas City, MO 64108

[vroman]

attendance was low bc of sanctioning. it certainly kept everyone in stlouis home, even though KC is relatively close

[Webster]

Here's my complete report of the week. There's not much time spent on the actual tournaments, but you might find it an interesting read.

http://strategy.channelfireball.com/featured-articles/according-to-webster-what-really-happens-at-nationals/

[voltron00x]

Here's my complete report of the week. There's not much time spent on the actual tournaments, but you might find it an interesting read.

http://strategy.channelfireball.com/featured-articles/according-to-webster-what-really-happens-at-nationals/

That was a really entertaining, "old school" type report. I really enjoyed it.

I'm curious, do you recall any details from the Ichorid match?

[Webster]

I'm curious, do you recall any details from the Ichorid match?

I don't remember the match in the swiss much.

In the semis:
g1: He mulls to three. I think I'm good because I have Ancestral, Time Walk, and Demonic Tutor which will help me go broken. I have a free mana at some point so I Duress him in case he's holding an Unmask. I see his second Bazaar of Baghdad. I lose because he's able to activate Bazaar two more times than I had anticipated.

g2: I have Leyline and Crypt in my opener. He's plays Pithing Needle on the Crypt, but it doesn't matter because I find Tinker.

g3: He mulls to five and I to six. On the draw, I have: Volcanic Island, Polluted Delta, Mana Crypt, Sensei's Divining Top, and Time Walk. Choosing to keep that hand was difficult because it doesn't have any hate card, but it does have the ability to see so many cards. He doesn't have Chalice or Unmask. I draw Merchant Scroll and play Mana Crypt, Volcanic Island, and Sensei's Divining Top. Upkeep, I top with the Volcanic and draw Pithing Needle. I Merchant Scroll for Mystical Tutor and play Pithing Needle on Bazaar of Baghdad. I Mystical for Tinker and get Darksteel Colossus. He's got an Ichorid and Bridge from Below in the yard as well as a Nacromoeba and Zombie token in play. He isn't able to do anything except dredge for his draw step and attack. I gifts EOT for spells to deal with his critters and win on my turn.

[Bone]

attendance was low bc of sanctioning. it certainly kept everyone in stlouis home, even though KC is relatively close

What? In Europe almost all mtg events are sanctioned. Some of them even have over 350 players...

How is sanctioning a problem for attendance? Just play a budget deck...

[voltron00x]

I'm curious, do you recall any details from the Ichorid match?

I don't remember the match in the swiss much.

In the semis:
g1: He mulls to three. I think I'm good because I have Ancestral, Time Walk, and Demonic Tutor which will help me go broken. I have a free mana at some point so I Duress him in case he's holding an Unmask. I see his second Bazaar of Baghdad. I lose because he's able to activate Bazaar two more times than I had anticipated.

g2: I have Leyline and Crypt in my opener. He's plays Pithing Needle on the Crypt, but it doesn't matter because I find Tinker.

g3: He mulls to five and I to six. On the draw, I have: Volcanic Island, Polluted Delta, Mana Crypt, Sensei's Divining Top, and Time Walk. Choosing to keep that hand was difficult because it doesn't have any hate card, but it does have the ability to see so many cards. He doesn't have Chalice or Unmask. I draw Merchant Scroll and play Mana Crypt, Volcanic Island, and Sensei's Divining Top. Upkeep, I top with the Volcanic and draw Pithing Needle. I Merchant Scroll for Mystical Tutor and play Pithing Needle on Bazaar of Baghdad. I Mystical for Tinker and get Darksteel Colossus. He's got an Ichorid and Bridge from Below in the yard as well as a Nacromoeba and Zombie token in play. He isn't able to do anything except dredge for his draw step and attack. I gifts EOT for spells to deal with his critters and win on my turn.

Interesting - thanks, I appreciate it.

What? In Europe almost all mtg events are sanctioned. Some of them even have over 350 players...

How is sanctioning a problem for attendance? Just play a budget deck...

At the risk of sounding snarky, US Nationals wasn't held in Europe.  Proxy events are the norm here.  Further, you're talking about a Vintage side event at a Standard and Draft tournament.  Attendance will be worse than something that is Vintage-specific. 

[vroman]

attendance was low bc of sanctioning. it certainly kept everyone in stlouis home, even though KC is relatively close

What? In Europe almost all mtg events are sanctioned. Some of them even have over 350 players...

How is sanctioning a problem for attendance? Just play a budget deck...

US cities are spread out much more. KC is "close" to stl, but still a 7-8hr round trip. Im not going to drive 8hrs to play anything less than what I consider the best possible deck, and given the relatively few sanctioned vintage events, its not worth the sunk cost of tying up $1000s of assets in power cards. any US vintage event that cant count on ppl driving from out of town is going to be sparsely attended.

[GrandpaBelcher]

attendance was low bc of sanctioning. it certainly kept everyone in stlouis home, even though KC is relatively close

What? In Europe almost all mtg events are sanctioned. Some of them even have over 350 players...

How is sanctioning a problem for attendance? Just play a budget deck...

US cities are spread out much more. KC is "close" to stl, but still a 7-8hr round trip. Im not going to drive 8hrs to play anything less than what I consider the best possible deck, and given the relatively few sanctioned vintage events, its not worth the sunk cost of tying up $1000s of assets in power cards. any US vintage event that cant count on ppl driving from out of town is going to be sparsely attended.

I always like to point this out:



Not to mention that Texas also has roughly 1/2 the population of France and 1/3 the population of Germany (25M vs. 62M and 83M) and that the American transportation infrastructure is poop.

[Bone]

attendance was low bc of sanctioning. it certainly kept everyone in stlouis home, even though KC is relatively close

What? In Europe almost all mtg events are sanctioned. Some of them even have over 350 players...

How is sanctioning a problem for attendance? Just play a budget deck...

US cities are spread out much more. KC is "close" to stl, but still a 7-8hr round trip. Im not going to drive 8hrs to play anything less than what I consider the best possible deck, and given the relatively few sanctioned vintage events, its not worth the sunk cost of tying up $1000s of assets in power cards. any US vintage event that cant count on ppl driving from out of town is going to be sparsely attended.

Okay I understand. But just so you understand I don't just tell other people that it's possible. Last big sanctioned tournament I played in I travelled over 900 miles (1450 kilometers) for 14 hours and spent a crapload of dollars on the trip. And I played a merfolk deck with no power in it. This year I also plan to play the same tournament, with a Mox this time. But it's all about prioritizing.

Ps. this is ofcourse something other than a side event. (the attendance 350+)

But you used sanctioned as your point why the attendance was low and that's just seems wrong...

[vroman]

ok, to make things perfectly clear, here is a handy flow chart.



sanctioning is just one pitfall that makes other factors relevant.

[T00L]

ok, to make things perfectly clear, here is a handy flow chart.



sanctioning is just one pitfall that makes other factors relevant.

I approve of this message