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Author Topic: lateral thinking on time vault combo  (Read 1934 times)
median
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« on: August 24, 2009, 12:04:14 am »

     Some friends and I where doing a Type four cube draft a while back, and I observed a few things about magic in general that really changed my thoughts on budget decks. As I rummaged through the piles, black lotus was my last pick, and cards like Jayemdae Tome and Counterspells my first.
     I realized that in a format where you could only play one card per turn, any accelerant would be useless. And that’s when I realized how a good budget deck should function.
Instead of denying mana, it should deny the cards mana is used on. Cards like arcane laboratory and Ethersworn canonist are complete bombs against decks that want to chain brokenness together. I began brainstorming a list shortly.
     I decided on ethersworn canonist as my tempo card. It would let me out play my opponent if I ran an artifact heavy list; and after playing around with Meatberts bauble list, I knew that baubles would allow me to dig while my opponent was stalled. I still needed a win condition, and although I had intended this to be a budget list, Time Vault is an artifact, which allows me to play it and have counter back up.

     After a little work and some play testing the list evolved into.

4 force of will
4 mana drain
1 misdirection
//draw
2 sensei's divining top
1 brainstorm
1 fact or fiction
1 thirst for knowledge
2 urza's bauble
4 mishra's bauble
1 time walk
1 ancestral recall
// tutor
1 mystical tutor
1 tinker
1 merchant scroll
1 demonic tutor
1 vampiric tutor
// win
1 yawgmoth's will
1 time vault
1 voltaic key
1 inkwell leviathan
1 tezzeret the seeker
//control
4 ethersworn canonist
// bounce
2 rebuild
1 wipe away
// mana
1 black lotus
1 mana vault
1 sol ring
1 mox jet
1 mox pearl
1 mox sapphire
1 mox emerald
1 mox ruby
// land
3 flooded strand
2 tundra
2 polluted delta
1 island
1 flagstones of trokair
1 academy ruins
3 underground sea

 Although it is no longer budget, it carries the spirit of the concept. Play one spell per turn use artifacts to gain tempo. And if you can't do that, go nuts.

       In testing it played similarly to traditional U/B tezz. The main differences are,

If you have a bauble, cycle it.
Canonist is a huge bomb, once it's on the board, you only need to counter threats, and your opponent can't bait. If they play something inconsequential. Use the chance to cast a tutor or draw spell.

If canonist is out you'll often need to bounce it to win, that’s the reason for wipe away in this list.

I had first decided on Hurkyl’s over Rebuild, to keep my canonist on the board, while wiping my opponents clear. However against stack canonist is useless and I want to replay moxen. Against a random tinker, I can play rebuild on my opponents end step and replay canonist on my turn.



tell me what you think.
 
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reaperbong
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« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2009, 08:48:31 am »

i've been playing 2 Canonists in my Tez build for a while now and i really like it. the decision came after getting my ass handed to me by Ad Nas and TPS combo but i find it works well with most anything (non-shops of course).

Wipe Away doesn't seem very good here, it costs too much. i like Chain of Vapor, it's much cheaper and i can sac a land if i want and get more use out of it.

Just a thought, i really like Esperzoa. i haven't managed to fit 1 in my build after going 4 Dark Confidants but they work great with Canonist, you bounce your Canonist during the upkeep for a normal turn and then drop him again to cheat the opponent. of course it's not needed if you have nothing but artifacts but 4 damage each turn to your opponent is nothing to scoff at, especially if they are bogged down by a Canonist. I pulled a few random wins in this way and i'm looking to test it again.

« Last Edit: August 24, 2009, 08:53:26 am by reaperbong » Logged

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John Jones
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« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2009, 01:33:48 pm »

I would add a singleton empty the warrens or tendrils of agony. Are the baubles really better than dark confidant which is a must counter or a card advantage machine?
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median
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« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2009, 03:43:19 pm »

I had thought about dark confidant and chain of vapor, though neither made the initial list. with an empty the warrens plan i could see adding them.
bob seemed like a bad idea at the time, with 6 cc5 spells + inkwell + FoF, i was worried about damage.

the only problem i had with chain was that it wasn't definite. it could be countered or they could play something in response, with canonist out, i would be unable to do much.
however with a warrens plan chain makes too much sense not to include. i could replay bauble for storm. and as it is casting a Y Will with a graveyard full of baubles is a very strong play. If I'm using Chain in a storm build, then i don't need to worry much about an opponent playing a top deck tutor as i will win shortly. ancestral is a problem, but aside from a few plays like that, and chain being countered i doubt these problems will come up too often.

i would replace tezz with empty, as they both serve the same "win now" solution.
since I'm dropping casting costs on the tezz and wipe away slots, i might be able to include confidants.

@ john jones
baubles are right in this deck, they don't actually draw anything, they just dig. being able to dig while your opponent is doing very little is what makes this work.

@ reaperbong
great to hear you having success with canonist, I'll test chain and confidant. esperzoa looks nice, but I don't see an slot it can fill.

thanks for the advice, i really like the idea of four color, it opens up fire//ice and pyroblast in the side, and pyroclasm.
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jaeppel
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« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2009, 05:21:34 pm »

What i was thinking, was something on the lines of this list -6 bauble, +4 confidant, +2 Trinket mage.  I dont really see here what the baubles do for this deck, without arcane denial, toughtcast, or more than one TfK... the baubles are really much worse than a real draw spell.  at that point it really starts to be fish-tezz, which i keep thinking that we will see soon, but hasnt really hit the scene.
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median
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« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2009, 08:33:23 pm »

. the baubles are really much worse than a real draw spell.

You hit the nail on the head,
they're not a draw spell, they're dig.

if you have one bauble in you opening hand you have a 11% of cycling into another bauble. thats 89% chance is something good.
the deck consists of 54 non bauble cards, which means that every bauble/draw is worth 111% of a normal draw your opponent would get, as baubles cycle.

your opponent is drawing one card per turn and doing very little while the canonist is down. while you can draw two cards, either from bauble + draw step or draw +brainstorm ect, and see on average, 222% of what you opponent is.
that lets you keep up a counter wall until you can play a time vault (also an artifact) and win.
baubles give you cards on your opponents turn, so you usually draw into one of the 20 pitch-able blue cards in the deck should you need one.
they're also perfect for tinker. Smile

Edit: corrected a typo.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2009, 09:20:18 am by median » Logged

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Harlequin
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« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2009, 01:28:52 pm »

Its a nice idea in a vacuum but That doesn't really hold water though... 
#1) you don't draw immediately, so if you have a hand of X baubles and No lands, its not like you can get a land drop this turn. 
#2) It ignores very commonly played cards that skew this number dramatically in your opponent's favor.  Namely: null Rod, Sphere, and chalice at 0. 
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median
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« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2009, 10:05:07 pm »

I agree, however thats not really a problem.
against stacks and aggro your best option is to just tinker an inkwell. that means one artifact on the table.
easily done.
your right about chalice at zero. you do run more artifacts than normal tezz lists however, so getting the tinker off shouldn't be too hard with chalice down. I'm more worried about mindlock stacks.

as far as land drops, this list runs more lands than traditional bauble lists. I've actually never had problems with getting lands for drain. if you get a pivotal artifact or non instant spell in your hand (there's five sorceries and 1 planes walker + artifacts for non instants) you should be able to hold out with one of your 8 counters, 1 misdirect and 1 brainstorm. given that your opponent can only cast one card per turn.
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Harlequin
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« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2009, 12:35:06 pm »

I'm not really woried about the 3rd land drop, I'm talking about your first or second land drop.... before you have cannontist and before your counterspells come online.

You also can't backup turn 1 plays with baubles... A hand of: Tudra, Mox, Cannonist, Force, Bauble x3 - is bearly worth keeping.  You either throw your cannonist out without backer, or let your opponent basically timewalk against you because you don't get to see your "real" opening hand until after thier upkeep.

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median
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« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2009, 06:09:35 pm »

thats actually an excellent hand on the play.
but yeah terrible on the draw. this is the reason the deck is in this forum.
I need baubles to see more while canonist is up, but they're terrible on the draw. I'm only running six, i could go down to four, but that makes things worse while canonist is up.
dark confidant would be ideal, but i cant find a slot for him (I'm open to suggestions, the ones so far have just cluttered up the two drop slot).
as an aside, here is what I'm currently testing:

9 counters
4 force of will
4 mana drain
1 pyroblast

12 draw
2 sensei's divining top
1 brainstorm
1 fact or fiction
1 thirst for knowledge
2 urza's bauble
3 mishra's bauble
1 time walk
1 ancestral recall

5 tutor
1 mystical tutor
1 tinker
1 merchant scroll
1 demonic tutor
1 vampiric tutor
 
5  win
1 yawgmoth's will
1 time vault
1 voltaic key
1 inkwell leviathan
1 empty the warrens

3 control
3 ethersworn canonist
 
3  bounce
2 rebuild
1 chain of vapor
 
8 mana
1 black lotus
1 mana vault
1 sol ring
1 mox jet
1 mox pearl
1 mox sapphire
1 mox emerald
1 mox ruby

15 land
4 flooded strand
2 tundra
2 polluted delta
2 island
2 volcanic island
2 underground sea
1 tolarian academy
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