Steel City Vault - Discussion

[forests failed you]

Thanks Mantis.  Your post is actually really interresting to me because I have been thinking about almost all of the suggestions you've made.  And, been thinking about the same problems you have have suggested.  How do you feel about not even playing a Tinkerbot?   There wasn't a single time at Wolds where he was actually useful, except when my opponent asked me to show him a win condition in exchange for a concession after I already had Key/Vault. 

[heiner]

Street wraith is the best wincondition for TV/key.

[Diakonov]

Null Rod is obviously still an annoyance, but it is far more beatable with this deck than normal Tezzeret.  Normal Tez almost cannot beat a resolved Rod while this deck runs a half dozen ways to deal with it, precisely because that is what it was designed for.

Also, saying "this deck is only of average difficulty" and "this deck has not been impressive in testing" leads me to the conclusion that, well, you are just not very good with the deck.  I've stood over Brian's shoulder and watched a ton of games and I will admit that I would have made much different plays in a lot of them, and then subsequently lost the game because of those plays.  The deck is actually pretty complicated, and if you are getting beat by everybody, well, maybe you shouldn't just blame the deck and call Brian's success a fluke.

As far as I've seen, most Tezz decks run at least 2 or three bounce spells that can be used to deal with Null Rod, compared to this deck's 1 Rebuild and 2 Ancient Grudge.  I know that Welder can remove rod sometimes, but it really shouldn't be all that common.  (For those of you who remember, this used to be an issue for Control Slaver against Gay UR Fish back in the day, to such an extreme that some Fish decks were even cutting Lotus just to make it a certainty.)  It also weakens the mana base pretty harshly by forcing you to run green.

Especially given that there are so many draw-7's, have you considered running more bounce and then just forcing them to discard it?  That saves you a whole color (although you'll have to cut Regrowth).

Also, any arguments as to whether or not the issue is based on adequate ability/experience are pointless.  Saying, "it didn't work for me so it must be bad," or "oh it didn't work for you, you must be bad with this deck" are not actual arguments.  Talking about the cards themselves and seeing the tournament results are the only things that matter.

[korgano]

SCV just did quite well (not sure if it was split of outright) at the eudo pearl event:

1st Cory Redmond:

Main Deck:
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Island
3 City of Brass
1 Inkwell Leviathan
2 Goblin Welder
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mana Crypt
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Time Vault
1 Yawgmoth's Will
4 Force of Will
1 Fire/Ice
1 Misdirection
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Brainstorm
1 Regroth
1 Wheel of Fortune
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
2 Voltaic Key
1 Rebuild
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Memory Jar
1 Ponder
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Windfall
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Transmute Artifact
1 Tinker
1 Intuition
1 Darkblast

Sideboard:
1 Volcanic Island
1 Pithing Needle
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Helm of Obedience
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroclasm
2 Ingot Chewer
1 Naturalize

I really need to sleeve this up and try it out.

[LotusHead]

I've been playing this list (Credmond's) on MWS and actually found opponents! (the only reason I didn't run the original is that I couldn't test it due to lack of Vintage players on MWS at the time.  I suck at goldfishing these kinds of decks)

So far, so good.

Initially, I was scared that if Inkwell died to Force of Will Pitching, that only 2 goblin welders would live to be the win condition.  But it's been pretty resiliant to lots of strategies so far.

[erictehfatz0r]

As far as I've seen, most Tezz decks run at least 2 or three bounce spells that can be used to deal with Null Rod, compared to this deck's 1 Rebuild and 2 Ancient Grudge.  I know that Welder can remove rod sometimes, but it really shouldn't be all that common.  (For those of you who remember, this used to be an issue for Control Slaver against Gay UR Fish back in the day, to such an extreme that some Fish decks were even cutting Lotus just to make it a certainty.)  It also weakens the mana base pretty harshly by forcing you to run green.

I think you're mis-evaluating bounce by saying it effectively removes Rod from your further plans. If you bounce it, you have one turn to do things. Remove it with Ancient Grudge, and you'll have at least two turns to do things. That makes a big difference when you're setting up a winning scenario, especially a deck with this many draw7s.

When playtesting against Yangtime, his mana seemed perfectly fine, and I don't think the fourth color detracts enough from the manabase enough to warrant cutting Regrowth and flashback on Ancient Grudge, the former of which is pretty sick in a pile of restricted cards.

[forests failed you]

I never felt like my Mana was "bad" at eithe tournament.  In fact, I felt like it was actually really good--I always had the right colors to cast any of my spells, because the majority of the lands in my deck have the capablility to make almost any color.  The Cities, but also the fetches could get Volcanic Island, Underground Sea, or Tropical Island, depending upon what spell was already in my hand. 

Most of the spells are pretty cheap to cast, so I could easily opperate with three Mana on the table, so Wasteland, although very good, was actually less of a big deal than it might have been against other control decks.  The big thing is that you always want a Mox in the opener--this deck is so much more sick once it gets to three, than on one and two.  I mulliganed a lot of "fine" hands looking for Moxes and faster Mana.  The biggest problem with keeping bad hands is that you run into situations where you have a hand of utterly bonkers spells but you don't have enough Mana to make all the plays you want to make.  I almost always tutored for TIme Walk if I couldn't immediately take all the turns; because it was my best spell at simply generating a bunch of mana, just because it game me another untap step.  Also, one of the reason I liked Welder so much was his ability to be an Orcish Lumberjack and make me a Black Lotus every turn!

[breed]

Hi all,

after some goldfishing, I'm sure this is the deck I want to play for my next tournament! It's so explosive and funny to play. I agree with Mantis, I would also change 2/3 cards maindeck, but by the way, great deck!

 

[LUPO]

Have you thought about adding a dark ritual to give yourself a little more acceleration?

[breed]

Hi guys!

After some more testing, It seems that Frantic search would be a good addition in the deck, for more than one reason:

 - it's a restricted card (so 1 more!)
 - it's more or less free and help to find a big bomb (draw 7 or anything else)
 - discarding 2 artefacts with Welder in the battlefield (lol) is so nice

Just give it a try.

My 2 cents, breed

[Greeg]

Have you thought about adding a dark ritual to give yourself a little more acceleration?

I was actually going to look at Rit and changing up the deck a bit over the weekend. I like all of the MD Artifact hate, but the Rits would make it a little more Stormy, and would probably tempt me to also run a Tendrils instead of an ETW.

[Razvan]

Hi guys!

After some more testing, It seems that Frantic search would be a good addition in the deck, for more than one reason:

 - it's a restricted card (so 1 more!)
 - it's more or less free and help to find a big bomb (draw 7 or anything else)
 - discarding 2 artefacts with Welder in the battlefield (lol) is so nice

Just give it a try.

My 2 cents, breed

The problem is this:

-card disadvantage
-only really good if tolarian academy is part of it
-moxen don't untap
-you don't have too many artifacts you wanna discard anyway. inkwell or jar are the only 2

[LotusHead]

Vault and Key are ok to discard to Frantic Search, IF Welder is on the field, as you weld them back in, but obviously, one can discard anything if what they get is better.

[jaeppel]

If frantic search untaps three duals, its not really very good.  for it to be worth anything you need to make a profit on the untap effect, and that means untapping and reusing something good:  academy, bazaar, workshop, LoA, ancient tomb, etc.   Otherwise search is just a wast of a card.

I think most of us will agree that frantic search doesnt have a place in SCV.  This get me thinking "where is the frantic deck?"  still restricted, but it hasnt been playable in years.

[God_Campbell]

Frantic was awesome in Drain tendrils as a way to filter cards in hand and still have mana end of turn to draw and such, but in SCV, it is really not that much of an all star as it is more about sorceries and main phases then the end of turn area.

[Razvan]

David Caplan and I took SCV to a tournament in toronto this weekend. Attendance was really low, at 31 players, a lot of people that said they would come did NOT for some stupid, god-forsaken reason. 5 rounds, Top 8, top prize is $400 and a box of FTV: Exiled.

Anyway, I slightly modified the deck (the original deck):

-2 Impulse

+1 Sensei's Divining Top
+1 Strategic Planning

Sideboard was the same. I think Cappy ran the new maindeck with Intuition/Darkblast and modified the sideboard.

This is a bit how the day went. I will speed up the report as I don't keep notes and don't have my life totals:

R1: Ryan McCormick with Tez

I win the first game after having 1 welder, regrowth, fire/ice and leviathan removed from the game with a maindeck tormod's crypt. I cast the last welder and get the combo with 5 cards left in the library, including Timetwister, and after casting that, I just barely have enough to kill him.

Game 2 I am at low-ish life, but finally get a big turn after a crappy draw-7, with Top in play. I spin the top, and apparently i MISS Red Elemental Blast, then I cast Merchant Scroll for my last FoW, but apparently I miscounted my massive removed from game pile. So I lose terribly. Anyway, it's morning, so life goes on.

We have no time for G3.

0-0-1


R2: Meghan with Workshop Aggro

Game 1 was pretty silly with her getting down a Razormane Masticore on turn 1, then Sword of Fire and Ice, to which I respond with rebuild. I am sort of mana screwed, but I randomly top-deck Time Vault with Voltaic Key in play. Stupid way to win.

Game 2 is a bit more explosive, and both of us manage to screw up quite a bit. She casts Magus of the Moon through Workshop mana, and I forget about her sphere like 3 times, including the same Ancient Grudge twice. Anyway, at some point, I resolve a draw-7 and get the combo.

1-0-1

This round was more or less decided based upon the strength of main deck artifact removal. It's so good!


R3: Tim Turcotte with Suicide Black

He seriously casts about 10 duress effects in both games.

Game 1, he gets to about 5 life on his own, through Thoughtseizes, Vampiric Tutor and Necropotence. I mulligan to a 1-land 6 card hand, and he takes everything out of it, except, randomly, the Timetwister. Tim takes Force, Fact, Time Vault, and stuff, but leaves the TT there. I cast Voltaic Key as my first permanent, then TT with Lotus Petal into Transmute Artifact, and MANA!

Game 2 starts with me having a lot more land, but no hand as duress effects #6-#9 happen. I topdeck a draw-7, then cast it, and then I cast Voltaic Key with 3 mana left, and demonic Tutor as my last non-land card. I tutor for Mystical Tutor, and cast it in response to duress effect #10, and win from there with a Tinker.

Again, the artifact destruction came in handy vs. the Null Rods.

2-0-1


R4: Kris Kavanaugh with Landstill

There's some confusion in my very confused mind about how many rounds there are, and since he got paired down, he offers me a draw which I don't take.

Game 1, I am on the draw, and he stifles my fetch land because I am a really bad player and forget I am playing against Landstill. I get an EOT Vampiric Tutor for Tinker anyway the next turn which was the plan, and cast it with Force Backup. It gets Leviathan and he has to scoop.

Game 2, he gets an early Standstill, and I have a tinker in hand, but I wait for a turn to get another damned blue card for the force, which ends up being Timetwister. I cast Tinker into his Standstill, a bit risky but the game is getting away from me if I don't, and he doesn't draw a force.

G2 was a bit of bad luck on his part, but Kris complains.

3-0-1


R5, Don with Suicide Black

ID, 3-0-2, I think I go 3-0 in fun games.


Top 8: Jay Jiang with WGB hate-deck

Game 1, I go first (yey?) and cast a first turn tinker for Leviathan. He gets down a Kataki War's wage, but I manage to race the rest of his hate.

Game 2, he gets down an early Dark Confidant after I forced or killed the first one. He then gets down a Tarmogoyf, and gets me down to 2 life, since I took a hit from Mana Crypt twice and Mana Vault once or twice. I win the crypt roll, then go off, with many spells, a Draw-7 which was a bit crap. I am short on mana, since I have mostly City of Brass and had to break a Fetchland too, so I actually cast Time Walk at one life and hope to win the crypt roll. I win my second straight roll (after losing the first 2), untap the stupid Mana Vault, tinker away the Crypt, and draw until I get a Welder, cast that, and take the next 15 turns beating for 1.

For G2, I sided in both Red Blasts... yeah, he had no blue. I also smoke some Null Rods (I think) along the way.

4-0-2


Top 4: David Caplan with mirror

I actually don't recall much of this game, but Dave outplays me more or less. I win Game 1 after I mulligan, I cast 2 draw-7s to his one, and i win. Game 2, he mulligans to 5, but apparently they are better than my 7 anyway...

G3, I mulligan to Underground Sea, Volcanic Island, Goblin Welder, Demonic Tutor, Regrowth, Wheel of Fortune, I decide to keep it even though I probably would have regretted it. I did regret it.

4-1-2


Bleah. Anyway, I really enjoyed playing this deck, it's incredibly difficult without a lot of testing, of which I did zero. It's probably the most fun deck I have played in a long time. As for my "changes"... I really enjoyed SD-Top, it was really good in many games, and it's an easy sideboard out vs. anything with Null Rods. Having a Brainstorm every turn, or draw an extra card for 2 mana with Voltaic Key is very sweet as well.

Strategic Planning I mostly played because I have one... ... it got countered twice, and I used it twice. Once was to get rid of some crap after seeing the cards with the Top, and once was blind, which didn't specifically help or hinder any. I can't really say whether it's great or not, but I like the top, and I am not sure if I want to replace it with the Intuition/Darkblast combo. Maybe another card could be better, we shall see.

Either way, thanks for the fun .

[JoeChaos]

Played this list our our local first vintage tournament.
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=28705
+1 Sensei's top
-1 Impulse

After splitting the finals (with a guy playing the same deck).
We both strongly feel if we played the deck again it would have to be.

-2 Impulse
-1 Windfall
+1 Intuition
+1 Darkblast
+1 Sensei's Divining Top

The Impulse to Intu/Dark combo is suggested a lot, but also Windfall was just terrible for both of us, 90% of the time, in almost all match ups.

Otherwise, this deck is soooooooooooooo good

[majikal]

What are the advantages of running SCV over a similar Welder Vault build with Drains? Is it just the fact that you get to squeeze in a few more busted spells?

[LotusHead]

What are the advantages of running SCV over a similar Welder Vault build with Drains? Is it just the fact that you get to squeeze in a few more busted spells?

Game one you might with with those busted cards (even Windfall, although I've only ever pitched it to Force of Will), then game two you have this other plan with Leyline/Helm that really does steal games....

[majikal]

Why can't you do that and run drains too, though? To me, the benefit of protection you get running Drains outweighs the +4 options (and a couple of them are redundant) you get from not running drains. I'm certain that some kind of convergence of this list and regular Tezz will be the most optimal build.

[credmond]

I think its a mistake to put mana drains in this deck. Well, its not a mistake per se since mana drain is a strong card in any deck that can cast it and mana drain will be potent and seem to carry its weight, but its nonetheless an addition that moves it away from being the deck that its meant to be.

One of the things that defines this deck at its core is the draw 7s. Playing mana drains and draw 7s is counter synergistic. You don't want to draw drains off a draw 7. You want to draw acceleration and turn those into more bombs and pitch counters so you can win on the spot - otherwise the draw 7 hasn't done anything for you. This deck tries to overwhelm more controllish decks with a density of bombs and the ability to come out of nowhere with explosive raw power and assemble a win. It exploits a hole (in the counter wall or in the prison wall) and explodes in the opponents face.

If you start adding drains you will quickly find the draw 7s less than optimal, since wow it looks like my opponent just got a matching handful of counter magic too and I don't have the juice and bombs to win here and now so I must pass the turn. And once you start removing the draw 7s then you will be building some bob tezz list with maybe a welder in there for a few recursion tricks or something along the lines of a drain tendrils list with maybe a welder in there for recursion tricks.

The 5c mana base is also too fragile for drains. Its better for doing what it does, punching through the opposiing player's deck with bombs. This deck is an aggressive deck.

[Razvan]

I agree that adding drains to the deck is a bad move. First of all, most of your stuff is sorcery-speed anyway, and you are a combo-deck that wants to go off fast. You almost never have open anyway. You don't necessarily just chain-cast threats hoping one can get through, although ultimately, the basic plan can be to put mana and throw out draw-7's (especially Timetwister) to reset the game. If you can get at least more mana from any draw-7, it's a gain.

Not only do you have a lot of permanents, you also have some serious permanent destruction, which can put you even further ahead. Imagine both players having put down a lot of artifact mana, you cast rebuild, then a draw-7.

[jmiszal]

First post ever on the manadrain:
This deck is the deck that i am playing in the upcoming pro tour austin side events i was wondering if there was anyone here in austin that would like to test?ALso i have changed it and i dont want to get flamed but i have added personal tutor and tendrils and sd-top.Its really nice to personal tutor for transmute artifact or tendrils or time walk.ALso i know this is off topic but i quit playing when my last vintage deck was stolen and was wondering if anyone has seen a grim tutor with lightning coming out of the guys hands and a lightsaber looking thing in his other hand.It is done in silver sharpie someone saw it in chicago but they guy said he sold it when confrontedIf you have any information i would gladly like to hear it and i can tell you some other cards to look out for.I look forward to being a postive poster here and post good ideas.Thanks for your time.

[meadbert]

So I just read Kowal's article about Battle of Wits and noticed a card I had forgotten about.
Might Tainted Pact work well in Steel City Vault as a 2 of?  It seems that hitting the same card twice is fairly unlikely (especially if the fetches are distributed properly and Gemstone Mine comes in for a City of Brass)
Tainted Pact would almost be Demonic Tutors 2 and 3.

[vroman]

theres still force will, and possibly drain

[LennoxLewis86]

I like Meadbert's suggestion.

Yes, you still have FoW as a 4-of but looking at the first list and some adjustments that have been made: -2 Impulse +1 Intuition +1 Darkblast (I've been playing this deck and I'm still playing Windfall). You can play 4 different fetchlands: 1 Delta, 1 Strand, 1 Rainforest and one U/R fetch. Then you can cut two Cities and play one Gemstone and one Orchard instead. This way you only have 4 FoW's, 2 Welders and 2 Voltaic Key that can ruin your Pact if I recall correctly. Besides, most of the time you will be looking to assemble the combo so you can also forget about Key cus it's either on the table or you'll be taking the first one you find.

The only other problem I see is having Inkwell removed which would be devastating (unless the board allows you to beat down with Welder after resolving the lock-artifacts)

I wouldn't ever play Drains in SCV so there would only be FoW, Welder and Inky to worry about.

It should at least be tested imo...

[meadbert]

Preliminary testing suggestions Tainted Pact is more of a sorcery speed Super Impulse rather than Demonic Tutor since you usually want to Demonic for one card and you cannot just run through the whole deck.  You can pretty safely look at 7ish cards and get something good, so I am not sure if it belongs or not.

[vassago]

What would you cut to add tainted pact?  I dont have alist in front ofme, but I am prety sure there isnt much you would want to cut.

[LennoxLewis86]

I would cut any combination of Darkblast, Intuition and Windfall (or Impulses) for the Tainted Pact.

But what about Strategic Planning instead of Tainted Pact or Impulse? It synergizes well with Welder and Grudge. It digs without removing cards or putting them on the bottom of your library, out of reach. In the graveyard it can easily be flashbacked, welded back in, regrown or played via Will.

Sure, Impulse is an instant but SCV is a deck that casts spells in its mainphase most of the time...

[Tha Gunslinga]

Preliminary testing suggestions Tainted Pact is more of a sorcery speed Super Impulse rather than Demonic Tutor since you usually want to Demonic for one card and you cannot just run through the whole deck.  You can pretty safely look at 7ish cards and get something good, so I am not sure if it belongs or not.

Why is it a sorcery speed Super Impulse?  It's an instant.