Steel City Vault - Discussion

[voltron00x]

First, check out the awesome primer Brian DeMars wrote on the Steel City Vault deck, which is up on Starcity:

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/17922_Feature_Article_The_Steel_City_Vault_Deck_Unleashed.html

I was hoping we could have some discussion on this deck:

-Is this the new top combo deck in Vintage?  Do you even consider it a true combo deck?

-Lacking Drains, Rituals, Shops, Bazaars, and Null Rod, where does this deck fall in the traditional pillar structure of Vintage?

-Is this deck truly a competitor go-forward, or is its success based on the strength of its pilot pool to date and the newness of the deck in general?

-If it sees widespread adoption, where do Null Rod Aggro strategies go from here?  (expect to see some discussion on this from Menendian in the near future)

-Finally, is this deck good or bad for Vintage?

To build on that last question, I've cut/paste some comments from the SCG forums that might kick off debate...

Nice article.

Seriously, I question anyone who thinks Vintage is a format with a beautiful, sunny future. Look at this deck. Look closer. If this deck, or a deck like it, were to be dominant within the Vintage metagame, what could *possibly* be done about it? You can't restrict anything, it's already 90% restricted cards, and the only 4x is Force of Will.

Redundant restrictions breeds lists that look like highlander decks. Thing is, those restricted cards are so good that at some point, we're going to have a dominant highlander deck on our hands, and on that day, something will need to change.

Vintage is walking a razor-thin line, with format-destroying drops on each side. This problem is just one of the perils the format faces.

Well, here's the thing. Personally, I don't think this deck is very... good. At least, not in its current form.

Let me rephrase that - its a decent enough deck, but no more fundamentally broken than any other Tier 1 Vintage deck - Tezz, Ichorid, TC Stax, Null Rod Aggro.

Steel City had very low attendance due to competition from the GP(unfortunately). The tournament was won by one of the best players in the room with a new deck high on raw power. That shouldn't be seen as surprising. Another very good player also made T8 with the same advantage. My playtest group pieced together the decklist to within 2-3 cards just from that day 1 at Steel City, and tested with/against it before Champs... and once you know what its doing, it isn't nearly as powerful as you think. Again, it does what its supposed to do - beat decks geared to beat Tezz (especially those that use Null Rod as a crutch), because it isn't Tezz.

However, it has no disruption - and IMO one of the things that pushed Tezz from the best deck among many good decks to the force its become is the fact that it runs Force AND Drain AND TS / Duress. This is a straight combo deck, not combo/control like Tezz. I am more concerned with updated Tezz shells than I am with this deck. Like most combo decks, it is relatively easy to beat if you want to beat it. Further, several highly skilled Vintage players bombed out at champs running this thing.  Draw 7s add what is, for me, an uncomfortable level of variance compared to the tutors present in Tezz.

The deck is still EXCITING though - its something new. Vintage hasn't had a new combo deck in a while (unless you count a few T8s by Dream Halls in small events), and TPS / Drain Tendrils has fallen by the wayside. If high-caliber players continue to develop this deck, it could become something very powerful, and that would be awesome IMO.

If you read back to some stuff I wrote last spring, I was really surprised to hear Vintage players say they'd tried to beat Tezz, and failed. The format had hardly adapted at all, at least in the US. Instead, most people just gave up and ran Tezz. This has changed since 7/1. The restriction of TFK didn't really "break" Tezz, IMO, but it did push people to try new archetypes, and suddenly Ichorid and Fish and Shops and now Draw 7 Combo are seeing play, and good players are running them and winning events.

Vintage feels exciting again. This deck isn't a threat to Vintage at all, but part of a new wave of decks in a shifting and adapting metagame - the sign of a healthy format.

And again, regardless of what I think of the deck itself, the article was excellent, and DeMars should definitely write more in the future.

[gamegeek2]

Colin Wu's deck can be described as Drain Tendrils, he placed 2nd at Champs.

[Grand Inquisitor]

its a decent enough deck, but no more fundamentally broken than any other Tier 1 Vintage deck

...and seemingly less coherent and resilient.  Feels kinda like Workshop Slaver.

[voltron00x]

its a decent enough deck, but no more fundamentally broken than any other Tier 1 Vintage deck

...and seemingly less coherent and resilient.  Feels kinda like Workshop Slaver.

I think my question is more along the lines of, can the innovations from this deck just be ported to Tezz, which is more stable and probably has better match-ups across the board?  I'm thinking specifically of cards like Grudge and Welder.  I'm not really sure that the Draw 7s are better in a wide open field than playing Drains and TS/Duress or legitimate draw engine cards.  Then again, playing Welder in Tezz isn't really a "new" idea, and the hit the mana base takes hasn't really been worth it over time, at least as far as I understand things.

One of the interesting things with this deck is that despite the # of restricted cards, it isn't really as highlander as it seems.  There is a lot of overlap in many areas, like the Draw 7s (3), the Brainstorm/Ponder (2), the various one-mana tutors, the mana accelerants, and so on.  It definitely doesn't PLAY like a deck with 30+ singletons.  

I'm going to admit I've only played with/against it maybe... 20 times.  I didn't really post this to offer my opinion, but to get that of others.  What I'VE found is that playing the deck, I got into too many situations that came down to resolving a Draw 7 and wishing on a star.  Sometimes (many times) I got there on raw card power, but plenty of times I didn't, or my opponent's draw was also fast but had disruption, so I lost, or maybe the deck i was playing against wanted to, you know, actually interact.  This deck doesn't really do quite as well in those situations.  Finally, some people are "that guy" and can hit 2 pieces of fast mana and a busted draw spell like FoF, Gifts, Will, Recall, or a draw 7 in every hand.  I'm not that guy... I had a lot of do-nothing hands that were full of potential depending on what was on top of my library, but didn't really achieve anything except acceleration and/or allowing both players to look at new hands, which isn't as stellar when you're on the draw.

[silvernail]

This basically looks like Tez without drains. The difference is you try to aggressively draw into key/vault or tinker/ inkwell while backing it up with artifact hate in welder / grudge.

I would consider this weaker than normal Tez because you give your opponents more cards with draw 7s and you have less cards to counter with.

[vroman]

I think this most resembles control slaver. except the artifact win is so cheap now that draining-into-triskelion play is no longer necessary.
I disagree w any theory that says 1-3 leylines can be correct. -1 yixlid (this guy is so narrow) +1leyline, esp since playing the helm-obed combo.
also if naturalize is mainly there for choke and leyline, the decks already got great artifact destruction, so why not complement ancient grudge w ray of revelation? also nukes oath. youve got city-brass so why not.
I also like the idea of replacing impulse w intuition and darkblast. impulse has never striked me as a powerful card. lim-duls vault is far more broken. I also have always include a recoup in every blue deck I test against. it seems it would particularly shine here w such a plethora of powerful sorceries.
Ive long held the maxim "any time you can logically add a restricted card to your deck, its probably right to do so." this takes that concept and runs for the distance. I like it.

[Grand Inquisitor]

can the innovations from this deck just be ported to Tezz...I'm thinking specifically of cards like Grudge and Welder

playing Welder in Tezz isn't really a "new" idea

Neither is grudge.  Both of them are well worn (albeit before TFK's restriction).  There are some loose synergies with both of these cards and Jar, Wheel, Windfall.  However, these don't seem to recoup the more fragile manabase, risk from 'losing' draw 7s and vacuous permission suite.

[voltron00x]

can the innovations from this deck just be ported to Tezz...I'm thinking specifically of cards like Grudge and Welder

playing Welder in Tezz isn't really a "new" idea

Neither is grudge.  Both of them are well worn (albeit before TFK's restriction).  There are some loose synergies with both of these cards and Jar, Wheel, Windfall.  However, these don't seem to recoup the more fragile manabase, risk from 'losing' draw 7s and vacuous permission suite.

That's... more or less what I said, right?  I don't understand why someone would play this over Tezz, especially now that the deck is "out".

[Razvan]

Seriously, I question anyone who thinks Vintage is a format with a beautiful, sunny future. Look at this deck. Look closer. If this deck, or a deck like it, were to be dominant within the Vintage metagame, what could *possibly* be done about it? You can't restrict anything, it's already 90% restricted cards, and the only 4x is Force of Will.

I am not really a big fan of the this. "This list is basically the restricted list, we cannot restrict anything if this is too strong, oh dear, the sky is falling!" It's an attitude that far too many people are developing. This deck does NOT need any sort of counter, and if any deck were to dominate, it should be something like this. It's like the keeper of old with the ability to draw 47 cards . It will not dominate, but all I am saying, it's fine if it did.

Other than that, the deck is beautifully done, and it looks fun to play, and I am sure people will dismiss it because it has absolutely zero redundancy (which is a given). Plus, what GI mentionned in his last sentence.

[Tha Gunslinga]

It's Combo Slaver.  BUG Fish has a fairly good matchup against it, so if you're looking for a Null Rod strategy I would recommend that one.  I beat two Steel City Vault decks at Gencon despite playing at a B- or C level the whole day.

[pierce]

who were those players? If you are referring to the match between yourself and Yangtime, he was playing drains I believe. Also, he drew poorly and mulliganed.

On the contrary, I think the deck is fine vs fish type decks--it was designed to beat them. I certainly got smashed by it when it mattered most. I won't willingly play fish in the post worlds metagame, I'll opt for this instead.

I put in somewhere between ten and twenty hours with it in preparation for an upcoming event that has now been cancelled. My conclusion is that it's truly an elegant deck, with MD solutions to every current threat that interacts with the time vault combo. That said, aggressive mulligans are key.

[2nd_lawl]

who were those players? If you are referring to the match between yourself and Yangtime, he was playing drains I believe. Also, he drew poorly and mulliganed.

On the contrary, I think the deck is fine vs fish type decks--it was designed to beat them. I certainly got smashed by it when it mattered most. I won't willingly play fish in the post worlds metagame, I'll opt for this instead.

I put in somewhere between ten and twenty hours with it in preparation for an upcoming event that has now been cancelled. My conclusion is that it's truly an elegant deck, with MD solutions to every current threat that interacts with the time vault combo. That said, aggressive mulligans are key.

Maybe it has excellent solutions, but it seems better to simply avoid the problem. Why but your head up against all of the fish decks when you can play ANY storm combo deck and simply ignore the majority of their cards. I mean is there anything funnier then watching a fish deck power out creatures that do nothing against you like pridemage?  The "solution" to the bug fish, gw beats, gwb beats et al. is not to get in an arms race over hate and removal(which will do nothing but make both decks worse vs the rest of the field), but to switch strategies entirely.  I don't see how in a metagame infested with anti-artifact(and specifically anti-vault) hate decks the correct direction is to build a deck that crutches even harder on artifact activated abilities then even tez does.  requiring aggressive Mulligans is bad, its basically code for "this deck is very inconsistent" and "you will lose 5% gw% from mulling into oblivion."

[Tha Gunslinga]

who were those players? If you are referring to the match between yourself and Yangtime, he was playing drains I believe. Also, he drew poorly and mulliganed.

I was Demars' only loss in the swiss.  I don't believe Jerry Yang was playing Drains.

As far as Jerry Yang drawing poorly, game 3 I played basically 3 Null Rods and one Tarmogoyf, and pretty much nothing else relevant.  His deck was unable to deal with a 4/5, though he did Ice it multiple times.  My draws were not exactly phenomenal either.

[Eastman]

its a decent enough deck, but no more fundamentally broken than any other Tier 1 Vintage deck

...and seemingly less coherent and resilient.  Feels kinda like Workshop Slaver.

Yah workshop slaver or that spoils of the vault deck. We've seen this before. Strength of the pilot(s), and of restricted cards generally.  Overall this deck is less powerful and more hateable than the true contenders in the meta.  Says nothing about type 1 as a format.  

This basically looks like Tez without drains. The difference is you try to aggressively draw into key/vault or tinker/ inkwell while backing it up with artifact hate in welder / grudge.

I would consider this weaker than normal Tez because you give your opponents more cards with draw 7s and you have less cards to counter with.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

who were those players? If you are referring to the match between yourself and Yangtime... he drew poorly and mulliganed.

...

My conclusion is that it's truly an elegant deck, with MD solutions to every current threat that interacts with the time vault combo. That said, aggressive mulligans are key.

 (emphasis added)

[LordHomerCat]

Oh my god, a deck full of restricted cards where you can't keep your seven every game?  How awful!

Oh wait, the deck mulligans aggressively, sure, but you can make up the difference better than anyone else in the format.  When you mulligan and then cast a draw 7, how far behind do you think the deck actually is?  Workshop decks mulligan a ton and we aren't going around saying they are too inconsistant and the deck would be better if you cut the artifacts that are good with Workshop for stuff you can cast more often but have less powerful effects.  And those decks can't just pick up a new hand with a large portion of the spells in their deck.

Every Tezz deck will have games where it just can't beat a hundred null rods.  I would rather be playing with multiple Ancient Grudges and a ton of bounce spells and draw spells which can actually undo the hand destruction and mana denial of a BUG fish deck then rely on Impulse or Night's Whisper and the less powerful half of the restricted cards in SCV to beat those matchups.  Regular Tezz gets completely destroyed by BUG fish.  SCV is by no means a huge favorite, but at least you have a chance.

[OwenTheEnchanter]

I think my question is more along the lines of, can the innovations from this deck just be ported to Tezz, which is more stable and probably has better match-ups across the board?  I'm thinking specifically of cards like Grudge

Once you figure out how to do that id love to know, I always lose to Null Rod when I play Tez.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Workshop decks mulligan a ton and we aren't going around saying they are too inconsistant

Exactly what you said, except the first thing.

Once you figure out how to do that id love to know, I always lose to Null Rod when I play Tez.

No, you don't:

http://www.morphling.de/printview.php?c=1096&d=8

As a fan of the 4c manabase, I really liked your configuration with TMage and a solo CoB.  Cards that mitigate mana problems while giving away little to the tezzeret matchup are pretty good.  However, I happened upon the real deal in dark confidant only hours before the Vintage Champs: Dark Confidant.

It sounds dumb, since Bob has been heralded forever.  I'd always thought he was too slow for the combo/control matchups, but my mistake was to always underestimate the number of slots he saves you.  It's an EV thing for the 75 cards that makes him viable for the maindeck 60.

To try to drag this thing back to the topic...SCV is a deck that does the opposite.  It dedicates critical slots with medium returns around a combo that requires very little.  While you could be hating certain matchups or building redundancy or consistancy, this deck offers instances of brokeness and synergy without a promise of return on certain in-game decisions.

[gamegeek2]

SCV (Demars list) compared with TPS (A Closer Look at the Perfect Storm, -1 U. Sea +1 Bloodstained Mire):

TPS manabase: 10 mana artifacts, 4 Polluted Delta, 1 Bloodstained Mire, 2 U. Sea, 2 Swamp, 2 Island, 1 Academy, 4 Dark Ritual, 2 Cabal Ritual
SCV manabase: 10 mana artifacts, 2 Flooded Strand, 2 Polluted Delta, 3 City of Brass, 2 U. Sea, 2 V. Island, 1 T. Island, 1 Island, 1 Academy

TPS features a solid, 2-color manabase, with multiple basics of each color (and more out of the sideboard); it has more fast mana which produces on-color mana. Both decks' mana artifacts have additional synergy besides the shared components: one with Storm, the other with Welder.

TPS main engines: Tinker, Memory Jar, Timetwister, Yawg Will, Necro, Yawgmoth's Bargain, Mind's Desire
SCV main engines: Tinker, Memory Jar, Timetwister, Yawg Will, Windfall, Wheel of Fortune

TPS definitely has more powerful engines, and the shared engines are more powerful in TPS, though SCV isn't as reliant on engines as TPS

Shared draw/tutor - 1 Fact, 1 Gifts, 1 Brainstorm, 1 Ponder, 1 Merchant Scroll, 1 Recall, 1 Demonic Tutor, 1 Vampiric Tutor, 1 Mystical Tutor
TPS draw/tutor (non-shared) - 1 Grim Tutor, 1 Imperial Seal
SCV draw/tutor (non-shared) - 2 Impulse, 1 Thirst for knowledge, Transmute Artifact

Both decks pack similar draw & tutor; SCV has more card draw/selection where TPS has more tutors, as well as Transmute Artifact, a "fair" Tinker that is still very good in this deck, especially with Welder.

Shared protection - 4 Force of Will, 1 Misdirection, 1 Rebuild
TPS protection (non-shared) - 4 Duress 1 Chain of Vapor
SCV protection (non-shared) - 2 Ancient Grudge, 2 Goblin Welder, 1 Regrowth, 1 Fire//Ice

Both decks pack 4 Force and 1 Misdirection, as well as a Rebuild for problem artifacts, Inkwell Leviathan, potential mana generation, and storm in TPS. Duress in TPS is a catch-all answer that can be deployed on turn 1 to pre-emptively answer most threats. Ancient Grudge serves as limited but powerful protection, protecting you from other Vault decks on defense while taking out problematic artifacts on offense, particularly Null Rod. Goblin Welder and Regrowth aren't protection per se, but they give resiliency by allowing you a "second chance" at your combo, and Regrowth actually is a second chance at anything. Welder also disrupts Workshops. Chain of Vapor in TPS serves the purpose of Rebuild, but hits specific problem permanents on defense or offense, and can even generate storm and mana. Fire//Ice in SCV is an answer to small utility creatures, particularly Dark Confidant and taps down everything from big beaters (except Leviathan) to lands.

Not entirely sure on SCV's strengths and weaknesses; can't make a comparison as of now.

Manabase: TPS has a stronger manabase, being 2 colors instead of 4, and has additional fast mana; both decks take advantage of their artifact mana (besides Tinker and Academy)
Engines: TPS has more powerful engines, though it's also more reliant on them
Draw/Tutor: SCV has more draw/tutor/selection, and abuses Transmute Artifact; TPS uses its additional tutor effects to find broken engine cards, particularly Yawgmoth's Will
Protection: SCV has more limited, metagamed protection, though it's quite effective at what it does; TPS has more general protection, and is better suited to a defensive role

I won't go into sideboards right now, though TPS sideboards tend to be constructed in a similar manner.

[forests failed you]

Just wanted to chime in with a few things:

Fristly, I think that the innovation--as I stressed in the article--is that playing a dedicated Time Vault deck that doesn't play with Mana Drain.  In the testing I've done Mana Drain has been pretty wretched against a fair portion of the field.  Specifically, I don't really like Mana Drains against Fish decks.  The format is so tempo oriented that it is really difficult to get ahead enough to leverage Mana Drain over an opponents threat, and then use the Mana to finish the game.  In general, most decks are playing a relevent threat, bomb or lock component on the first turn that makes it difficult to make Mana Drain an effective tool.

I wanted a deck that was entirely pro-active, but had the ability to win even if dangerous cards like Null Rod made it onto the battlefield.

In the testing that I've done it is my belief that this deck performs very well against Mana Drain decks (with or without Dark Confidant), and I don't actually think that Duress and Mana Drain are very good stratagies for fighting this deck.  Most Drain decks rely on card advantage and permission to stop combo decks, however with all of the card drawing, particularly the Draw 7s--if even one bomb slips through, it is likely that it will undo all of the progress that a Drain deck has done in containing the SCV deck up to that point.  The Draw 7s function in this deck similarly to the way that Yawgmoth's Will works in other combo decks.  The Mana Drain deck can counter the first five spells an opponent casts and Duress away all its cards, but if it doesn't counter Yawgmoth's Will it undoes everything.  When you Draw 7 with extra mana floating there is a really real chance that you can lock the game on the spot.


The stratagies that are actually good at fighting this deck are ones that attack its reasources.

I play this deck as though I am playing an old school Academy Deck.  I keep drawing cards and making mana and eventually I get enought card advantage and Mana Advantage that I just win.  It is not uncommon to draw upwards of 20-30 cards on the thirds or forth turn.I also don't think this deck mulligans anymore or less than any other Vintage deck.  Mana Drain decks often give players the illusion that their hand is good enough to keep when it isn't because players think that their turn two Drain will be good, when really it isn't fast enough to interact.  If anything the fact that bad hands are obvious with this deck  is beneficial to players.

Although I don't think that Tezzeret is particularly good against this deck, I think that a deck like Chapin's "The Deck" is very good against this deck.  I knew that going into the tournament, but I didn't think many people would play Keeper.  Keeper is good against me because it has ways to attack and keep my Mna a in check.


Th Difference is that this deck is always proactive in every match up, and it is very clear that when you don't have action it is probably best to ship the hand back for a hand that has stuff to do.  The fact that there are so many cards in the deck that generate massive card advantage make sthe deck mulligan very well.  It is the same idea that I stressed with one card acting like a Yawgmoth's Will and undoing everything an opponent has done to that point.  If you draw 7 It really doesn't matter how many cards you started with because you will have lots of action.  



I don't view this deck as a bad version of a preexisting deck.  I think it is actually a very different stratagy than the other deks in the format.  I think that it certainly has some weaknesses, but in spite of that I think that it is actually more resilliant to many of the things that Vintage decks are ACTUALLY doing than many of the other decks in the format.  We designed it to beat Tezzeret, Workshop, and Fish, and it was the best we could do at specifically having as good of percentages agaisnt those three decks  as possible.  In addition, we designed the board to give us strong game against Dredge after board.  Vroman is right, I think that a fourth Leyline would probably be better than the jailer.



Also, Transmute Afrifact almost always gets Memory Jar.  Other than Vault I probably got Jar the second most.  You can just weld it in if you don't pay for it.

[gamegeek2]

Edited transmute artifact section.

TPS has a fairly good matchup against this deck - It has more powerful engines, faster mana, and Duresses where you have [relatively] clunky Welders and Ancient Grudges that do next to nothing, not even land destruction as TPS tends to hold its Moxen until it wants to go off.

[forests failed you]

Yes.  TPS has a good match up against this deck.  So does Chains of Mephastopholes.dec. 

Fortunately, there is not a lot of TPS floating around right now.  TPS struggles against a large percentage of the decks that people actually play.  In particular, its Tezz, 5cStax, and Fish match ups are less than impressive.  I wanted to play TPS after Thirst for Knowledge got restricted, but the problem was that it didn't seem like it was particularly good against any of the most popular decks--so, instead I opted to play a deck that was specifically designed to beat the decks that people were actually going to be playing.  And, to my credit I feel that I pegged the metagame very well.  In two tournaments I faced TPS 0 times, Drains 6 times, Null Rodw/creatures 6 times, Workshop 3 Times, and Dredge 3 Times.  Which is exactly what I hoped to/anticipated playing against in those events. 

[Tha Gunslinga]

It's a very good deck, and it's definitely not something that has come up before.  The Welders, among other things, allow you to do things that you normally can't do.

[Marske]

@Forests_Failed_You,

We designed it to beat Tezzeret, Workshop, and Fish,

Finally, I would like to inform individuals who might consider playing this deck in the future of a few of its weaknesses so that they can be prepared for them. First, Leyline of the Void is a gigantic problem, and although it isn’t unbeatable it provides a lot of problems as it shuts down our Welders and can provide circumstances where Time Vault can be exiled from the game. Second, one of the most difficult cards to actually beat turns out to be Gorilla Shaman, as one of the major ways that the deck wins is by making a lot of Mana with Jar and Draw 7s.

Could you help  me understand how you built the deck to beat Stax when the best Stax list at the moment (according to Smmenen) is 5c Stax,  with most builds running Gorilla shaman and / or Leyline of the void maindeck? 2 cards you stated are very good against your deck.

TPS struggles against a large percentage of the decks that people actually play.  In particular, its Tezz, 5cStax, and Fish

The only real hard matchup you state here is 5cStax, Tezz has become slower and less focussed on beating "combo" or "long" and they even can't match the speed TPS has,  which has made TPS a very though opponent. Fish and especially decks seen in the USA like GWb Beatz are really pretty beatable with TPS if the pilot has a clue what he / she is doing. Maybe my testing is off (very well a possibility) but still I found your statements to be a bit of beat with my own findings.

[voltron00x]

Just wanted to chime in with a few things:

Fristly, I think that the innovation--as I stressed in the article--is that playing a dedicated Time Vault deck that doesn't play with Mana Drain.  In the testing I've done Mana Drain has been pretty wretched against a fair portion of the field.  

Mastriano's first-place list from the Philly Open 3 in May didn't run any Mana Drains, nor did it run a single Thirst for Knowledge, so that particular piece of your deck has been done before.  Personally, I thought that deck was insanely elegant and my win % in testing was outrageous.  I just never played it because, you know, I'm dumb like that.

However, SCV runs Draw 7s instead of a draw engine, plays red instead of the black disruption of normal Tezz, and adds even more tutors, plus a funky 5C mana base.  Not saying SCV isn't innovative but that particular piece of tech won tournaments before this deck came to be... however you took it in a very new and interesting direction.

[2nd_lawl]

I agree with marske that you are incorrect in your assertion that tps(or any storm deck really) has a poor matchup against fish.  All the TPS player has to usually do is force or thoughtsieze a single teeg or mindcensor and sometimes a null rod (or even bounce it if necessary, not to mention it often possible to win even with mindcensor or rod on the board.) then play their 3rd land and win. You can basically ignore pridemage and goyf.

[pierce]

@ 2nd lawl

define "fish" please. You keep talking about cards i'd never play in fish, and niether would a BUG pilot. So beatz? Storm gets wrecked by BUW fish/fae after all.

I think it's funny the bad matchups people keep saying, which are decks no one with a mind to t8 would play in the current metagame. Brian was right to mention "and chain of mes dot deck too". No deck beats every deck, but this one certainly performs well in the current realm. Obviously it would get smashed by grim long, which would welcome the draw 7s.

Drain tendrils gave me some problems in g1 testing, because it has the standard tezz disruption, but with a quick enough kill that those elements actually matter.

[Smmenen]

@Forests_Failed_You,

We designed it to beat Tezzeret, Workshop, and Fish,

Finally, I would like to inform individuals who might consider playing this deck in the future of a few of its weaknesses so that they can be prepared for them. First, Leyline of the Void is a gigantic problem, and although it isn’t unbeatable it provides a lot of problems as it shuts down our Welders and can provide circumstances where Time Vault can be exiled from the game. Second, one of the most difficult cards to actually beat turns out to be Gorilla Shaman, as one of the major ways that the deck wins is by making a lot of Mana with Jar and Draw 7s.

Could you help  me understand how you built the deck to beat Stax when the best Stax list at the moment (according to Smmenen) is 5c Stax,  with most builds running Gorilla shaman and / or Leyline of the void maindeck? 2 cards you stated are very good against your deck

Just as a clarification, if you read my 5c Stax report, you'll see that I say that I think 5c Stax is probably not the best route to go.   

[Marske]

@Steve,
Ok, I re-read the article and you're right, you said clearly it probably wasn't the best option (merely a serious contender) I'm sorry for this little mix up. But eitherway people are running Gorilla Shaman in Drain decks, Mono R Stax and what not. Not to mention the use of Leyline against Ichorid or in Helm combo decks. I was just curious about the statement Brian made and how SCV was build to do well against Fish, Tezz and Stax when those decks all are capable of running Shaman and/or leyline and some already do. I can't see how you can have a "decent"  matchup against a deck like 5c stax which runs both of the "best" disruption cards against SCV (looking at your list from your article)

[clayparson]

I've been testing this deck a lot over the past week or so, and I love it.  The number of interesting (and utterly broken) options you have is staggering.  It plays with elements of the (now-extinct) welder-slaver strategies, tps, draw7.dec, tezzeret, and (most interestingly, and i don't think anyone has mentioned this yet) the Gifts decks of old.  I don't have the numbers to prove it, but i feel like i've won more games by just dropping a welder, laying down some artifact mana, playing gifts, and winning.  Is it possible to incorporate a storm kill?

[LordHomerCat]

Empty the Warrens is very powerful.  I would probably not play without it.  Also, Marius, while those decks are *capable* of running it, only Stax does with any amount of regularity.  I ran Mox Monkey in my own tezz list for a few weeks but it just wasn't powerful enough, and it is very rare to see it otherwise in lists I've seen.  Also, almost no one runs Leylines main, and you can always go for your own Helm-Leyline combo if you feel that will be strong (against Stax maybe where Leyline is already solid) and have another good way to win through graveyard hate.

I mean, anyone can run Leyline and anyone red can run Shaman, but very few run either of those cards at the moment.  Maybe that will increase, but the vast majority of Tezz lists I've seen have access to neither of those cards, and maybe half the shop decks even run Shaman and few if any run leyline.