Deez Noughts deck help

[Ophidian]

Phyrexian Dreadnought is my favorite creature ever since I started playing back when Mirage was first released. You know how it goes you always love the first new set when you start playing. So when I start playing again late last year after taking some time off from the game after my daughter was born in 06 and found out Dreadnought was back to it's original wording I had to play it again.

Anyways on to my dilemma. I'm trying to find the right balance of cards in the deck. The deck is standard issue with 4 Bobs and 4 Tarmogoyfs. The part I'm not sure on right now is

2 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Trinket Mage
1 Illusionary Mask

I like the Trinket as it gets Tops, Explosives, Dreadnought, Needles when boarded in and power. But to my it's not focused enough. I should be playing 1 or 4 Dreadnoughts and 3 or 0 Trinket Mages. I'm thinkng of changing to one of the following

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
0 Trinket Mage
2 Illusionary Mask
-1Trickbind

or

1 Phyrexian Dreadnought
3 Trinket Mage
0 Illusionary Mask
+1 Pithing Needle as there alot of Vaults, Grindstones and Belcher at my local tournaments.

Whats everyones opinion on what route should I take?

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

Since there is so much ancient grudge in the format right now, I really wouldn't run deez noughts. If your still going to do it, I'd run the TK list with goyfs and an amount of trinket mage and 1 nought.
trinket mage will allow you to tutor for t-crypt, and pithing needle which are pretty good right now

[JudasKilled]

naughts just plain bad lets say you blow them out 1 game out of 5, 1 game out of 5 u get it midgame when its fairly irelevant  but can still win u the game but unlikely 2, and 2 gamse out of 5 there dead cards that could be drawing,countering, or aggroing, and 1 out of 5 cards you overextend and lose games because of it

[Grand Inquisitor]

wouldn't run deez noughts

naughts just plain bad

Guys, listen.  This is not a metagame question; he just really likes dreadnought.  This is a deck design question.

2 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Trinket Mage
1 Illusionary Mask

I haven't run these lists much, but from what I remember (and from tesitng Deez Noughts a lot) there's two routes:

1) Trinket package + stifles + 1x Dreadnought
2) Illusionary Mask + stifles + 4x Dreadnought

It's a matter of how many slots you want to devote to the combo vs. having a toolbox where Dreadnought is one option.  It may improve the feedback if you gave an entire decklist.

[apocalyp]

I played this list to a T8 finish in a 23 man tournament.  For the most part it was great and Dreadnought is great at the oops I win factor and it makes them  use answers on them and not on your other threats.


4x cursecatcher
4x dark confidant
4x tarmogoyf
2x phyrexian dreadnaught
4x force of will
4x stifle
1x mystical tutor
1x ancestral recall
1x time walk
1x vampiric tutor
1x demonic tutor
1x life from the loam
1x entomb
1x echoing truth
1x Engineered explosives
1x brainstorm
1x ponder
2x duress
2x thoughtseize

1x black lotus
1x lotus petal
1x mox jet
1x mox ruby
1x mox emerald
1x mox sapphire
1x mox pearl
4x flooded strand
3x underground sea
2x tropical island
1x bayou
1x volrath's stronghold
1x wasteland
1x strip mine
2x island
1x swamp

Sideboard
2x tormod's crypt
2x relic of progenitus
2x illusionary mask
2x diabolic tutor
2x seal of primordium
2x pithing needle
2x hurkyl's recall
1x curfew

I would change a few things from this list however
+ 1 dreadnought
+ 1 illusionary mask
+ 1 top
+ 1 chain of vapor
+ 1 trinket mages

- 4 Cursecatchers
- 1 entomb

The mask has the added benefit that if you get color screwed you can still play your crits.  Also it's immune from sphere effects and counterspells once it's down.  1 trinket mage probably just because I'm not sure what else I wanted there and it'll get the board options games 2 and 3.  Of vourse getting dreadnaught is always great too.

[Ophidian]

If I ever get worried about people running ancient grudge I would only run one phyrexian dreadnaught. And I'm a believer that your better to play a deck you know inside and out than something that gives you slightly better odds against the field. Mainly because your more likely to make mistakes in playing and building the deck. Thats just my opinion. I'm thinking of going with the TK version.

My deck is fairly standard we don’t allow proxies at the local tournaments. The turnout is usually 10 to 15 and only 2 guys have full power. Sideboard is gear to what our metagame is.

Deck

1 Lotus
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Top
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Illusionary Mask
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
2 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Trinket Mage
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Ancestral 
1 Brainstorm
4 Force Of Will
2 Spell Snare
2 Daze
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Bayou
1 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland
 
Board

4 Threads Of Disloyalty
3 Diabolic Edict
2 Pithing Needle
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Echoing Truth
1 Gaea's Blessing
1 Engineered Explosives


 

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

wouldn't run deez noughts

naughts just plain bad

Guys, listen.  This is not a metagame question; he just really likes dreadnought.  This is a deck design question.

2 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Trinket Mage
1 Illusionary Mask

I haven't run these lists much, but from what I remember (and from tesitng Deez Noughts a lot) there's two routes:

1) Trinket package + stifles + 1x Dreadnought
2) Illusionary Mask + stifles + 4x Dreadnought

It's a matter of how many slots you want to devote to the combo vs. having a toolbox where Dreadnought is one option.  It may improve the feedback if you gave an entire decklist.

Regardless or not it’s a metagame choice or not, just making sure you know not to expect to win many games without some insane tech. I’m just saying there are a lot of hate cards for the entire deck running around, so don’t expect to take home any moxen.
Also, players over extending does not make a deck bad. It just means the players are bad. Tezz and TPS players can over extend and lose games all day long. Bad oath players over extend all the time, and players like james who know better still make top 8 with the deck.
 Also, there are definitely more than 2 routs to go with the deck. Last variant I saw Ben run had no trinket mages or masks, just bobs, stifles, and diverts(maybe rod too). Last variant I ran was ur playing stifle naught, man lands, and stand still (beat a lot of shop fish and drain tendril that day, even oathed out an ingot chewer once!). That said, I would still try to run as much goyf as possible, because it’s hard to hate out, and as little naught as possible, because it’s easy to hate out. Don’t underestimate the t-crypt main, its great against the combo vault lists running around, and gets rid of the dark blast everyone is playing for bobs.

edit: the green splash for goyf also allows you to sb krosan grip, and thats pretty good for you.

[Ophidian]

I'm going to go with the TK version on saturday and see how it works. I'm not worried about winning moxs there's rarely big tournaments around here. They had a mox tournament about 2 1/2 hours from here on Saturday but the format was extended. WTF!!!! If it was Vintage or Legacy I would have went but extended. I havn't play extended in over 8 years. I know most people that were attended were just planing to sell it if they won.

[tomjoad]

I thought of this thread when I read Mark Gottlieb's rules update article today. From the Rules Manager:

  Illusionary Mask
What a weird, weird card. Under the original rules in place for this card, a face-down creature is what it actually is ... it was just face down. So, for example, if you had a face-down Lord of the Pit, and your opponent tried to Terror it (because how would she know it was black?) the Terror would be an illegal play. "It doesn't work." "Why not?" "It just doesn't." It would live through Infest. It would eat a creature during each of your upkeeps. This had some implementation problems, as you might imagine. Around the time the morph-filled Onslaught came out, the rules for face-down cards changed, and this card changed accordingly. But what it changed to was quite arbitrary, and didn't match what the card said at all.

The Oracle wording diverges pretty heavily from the printed wording. It ignored color considerations with the creature's mana cost (you originally had to pay the creature card's actual mana cost, plus whatever extra you wanted to disguise it), it put the creature directly onto the battlefield (you originally cast it), it used counters (which can be manipulated), and it allowed the creature to be turned face up whenever its controller wanted (such as when it's targeted with a -1/-1 ability), and it made the creature be 0/1 (which is imaginary; the printed card doesn't list a power and toughness because the creature was what it actually was).

There's no way we can mimic the original functionality; the rules regarding face-down creatures and hidden information are too strong and too logical. Instead, the card has been changed to come as close as possible to a modern-day interpretation (under the current rules system) of the printed card. This includes the notion that face-down creatures are 2/2, not 0/1.

New wording
{oX}: You may choose a creature card in your hand whose mana cost could be paid by some amount of, or all of, the mana you spent on {oX}. If you do, you may cast that card face down as a 2/2 creature spell without paying its mana cost. If the creature that spell becomes as it resolves has not been turned face up and would assign or deal damage, be dealt damage, or become tapped, instead it’s turned face up and assigns or deals damage, is dealt damage, or becomes tapped. Activate this ability only any time you could cast a sorcery.

There are memory issues involved. You need to write down and keep track of what was spent on for each creature (including both amount and type of mana). Then later, when the card is turned face up, you can compare that mana to see if it included the creature's actual mana cost. If not, all appropriate punishments for cheating—given the game, the setting, and the sadisticness of one's opponents—apply.

I think this makes Illusionary Mask Much closer to unplayable. Sure, you still dodge the Dreadnought's CIP ability, but it's now counterable, and it has considerably less application than Stifle/Trickbind in non-Dreadnought situations.

[Ophidian]

I would say it's now unplayable. It wouldn't be as bad if it didn't say activate this as a sorcery.