[Free Article]Lets talk about Ichorid Shall we....

[Marske]

http://vintage-sideboard.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=13:lets-talk-about-ichorid-shall-we&catid=5:vintage-articles&Itemid=12

Editor's Blurb:

Lets talk about Dredge shall we.....
It's the current day boogie man of Vintage. Some players think it's a mindless way of playing and that you don't need any “skill” to pilot this deck others think it's a highly flexible deck, today I'm going to take you on a journey into the lair of this beast as I examine different builds and look at what goes on during a match. I know I missed a few articles between my article about TPS and this one, but I've been very busy (I know it's no excuse) but a man can only do so much in the time he has. I'll not bore you guys with the details regarding the time I took to write this followup and I'll just get into the down and dirty.

Sorry for the delay but I'm catching up on the articles, I hope you guys enjoy.

[BruiZar]

Nice article. Recommended for players new to ichorid and non-ichorid pilots but also still a worthwhile read for ichorid players. For a follow up I would like to see some innovations and more focus on how to outplay post-sideboard hate cards with sample matches instead of just hands (because goldfishing doesnt really say much).

My personal belief is that Ichorid is among the hardest decks to play correctly. The metaphore I use to describe Ichorid is that game 1 is like swimming down the stream, but game 2 and 3 is swimming up against the stream. It is very possible to win through 3 diversified hate cards, but you need to play your cards correctly and draw the right ones. This is why I love chain of vapor put dislike pithing needle as it does not shut down more than 1 card. Also pithing needle is often a card you need to cast before the threat is played, thus before you even know the threat is in your opponents deck at all.

[voltron00x]

Nice article - have you considered whether or not you might switch to Leyline of the Void main or SB?  The rise of the Steel City Vault deck, as well as the increase of players running 5C Stax and Ichorid itself, means that graveyard hate is better positioned than ever.  I'm a huge fan of Unmask in game 3 in particular, but I've found that running Leyline maindeck is pretty effective in this metagame.  Obviously its a tough call... the swap I made was to cut one Fatestitcher and 3 Unmasks for 4 Leyline, simply because Wasteland is suddenly so prevalent and if you don't have a Bazaar to untap, Fatestitcher is obviously not as good.  I'm still unsure, though - I LOVE Fatestitcher and I think the card is crazy versatile. 

Not sure if you saw, but European-style Mana Ichorid won a 39-person tournament in NY on Saturday, with the twist of including 4x Force of Will and 2x Chain of Vapor, presumably to help combat game-one Leyline of the Void.  This is going to be a concern - one of the things I noted when I wrote about the Fatestitcher list Chas and I played was that Leyline wasn't really a "card" when we played it - no one was running it.  Obviously this is no longer true.  I think you need 8 answers - and remember that good Stax players will bring in REBs to counter Chain of Vapor on Leyline.  It is worth trying to Cabal Therapy sometimes to make sure the way is clear.

[Marske]

@voltron00x,
Thanks for the reply.

Leyline certainly is a concern, I build my deck before SCV and the return of Leyline so it might need adressing now.

Not sure if you saw, but European-style Mana Ichorid won a 39-person tournament in NY on Saturday, with the twist of including 4x Force of Will and 2x Chain of Vapor, presumably to help combat game-one Leyline of the Void.  This is going to be a concern - one of the things I noted when I wrote about the Fatestitcher list Chas and I played was that Leyline wasn't really a "card" when we played it - no one was running it.  Obviously this is no longer true.  I think you need 8 answers - and remember that good Stax players will bring in REBs to counter Chain of Vapor on Leyline.  It is worth trying to Cabal Therapy sometimes to make sure the way is clear.

Yes I saw the list, I included 6 answers to Leyline when people didn't run it so I'd have to test how that configuration holds up now. In the example you mentioned you also have Wispmare which avoids Chalice and REB. I've really come to like this like fellow for what he can give you along with Therapy to clear the way you should be able to clear that leyline of the board.

Regarding leyline:
If I were to run Leyline i'd run it in the board. Unmask is just too good imo to cut, I've only recently cut the 4 leyline I had in favor of the 1 Wispmare, 1 Chewer and 2 Needle in my board but a switch back to leyline might be warranted if SCV really puts up high numbers.

[vroman]

Sample hand #2
Serum Powder, 2x Narcomoeba, Ichorid, Chalice, Gemstone Mine, Unmask
 
This hand of 7 that contains two Narcomoeba and Ichorid should be a normal mulligan. If you Serum powder in this case you're removing 3 creatures you really want to keep in your deck. With them gone you're only shot at getting enough creatures on the board to flashback Dread Return is very slim, you only have 2 other Narcomoeba and 2 Ichorid left which isn't all that much. Now I've given 2 example hands and I can go on with this indefinitely and it could very well be an exercise worth doing. It is however beyond the scope of this article to go very in-depth on this process. Point is your Mulligan decision is already probably more complicated then most other decks and we haven't even started playing yet.

strongly disagree. this should be serumed for sure. 5 creatures left in the deck is plenty. Paris mul is so dangerous, you run down an increasingly likely path to auto-lose. furthermore if you play fatestitcher, then you have 3-4 more creatures for dread return. even assuming no fatestitcher (or drawing no blue to return) then if you serum and draw bazaar in next 7, you have 5 creatures in 53 cards, so 1 in 10.6, if you dredge on avg 15 cards/turn then you will have 3 creatures in play after your 3rd bazaar activation about 95% of the time.
with 8 creatures in 60 cards, is 1 in 7.5 so will have hit 4 creatures by 3rd bazaar essentially 100% of the time. given that ichorid has to be in yard at start of turn, its unlikely to have 3 creatures actually in play after 2nd bazaar even w all in your deck.
in short you give up essentially no speed, by seruming this hand. its even less relevent in mana-ichorid.
on the other hand, by paris mulling you have increased risk of auto-losing. dont do this.

your article has very scant discussion of just how difficult it is to win against prepared opponents post-side w icky. the hate shuts you down completely, and hits play turn 1 every time. meanwhile your answers are haphazard and easily thwarted, esp in manaless icky. I suspect that even given ickys hugely favorable game1 chances vs the field, its post-side chances are so stunted, it has overall <50% chance of winning a match vs someone who knows what theyre doing.

theres almost no point in talking about the normal icky strategy. write an article:

"Why being Ichorid facing post-side Ichorid hate is not the worst thing you can possibly be in vintage"

I hold the opposing position. Ichorid facing post-side Ichorid hate is the worst thing you can possibly be in vintage.

[Marske]

strongly disagree. this should be serumed for sure. 5 creatures left in the deck is plenty. Paris mul is so dangerous, you run down an increasingly likely path to auto-lose. furthermore if you play fatestitcher, then you have 3-4 more creatures for dread return. even assuming no fatestitcher (or drawing no blue to return) then if you serum and draw bazaar in next 7, you have 5 creatures in 53 cards, so 1 in 10.6, if you dredge on avg 15 cards/turn then you will have 3 creatures in play after your 3rd bazaar activation about 95% of the time.

As you can see from my list I run 4 Narcomoeba and 3 Ichorid so there would be 4 creatures left in the deck, the Fatestitcher hardly matters in the equation because you need U to actually get it into play so you'll not have 2 of them in play along with Bazaar. Although the numbers add up I'd be very skeptical about removing almost half of the creatures I'd need to dread return, maybe it's an obvious mistake on my part but I'd not remove 3 of those creatures in hopes of a better 7. I would find going to 6 with Bazaar and those creatures in the deck (which make the ratio for actually finding and using them a bit higher) worth this potential risk.

your article has very scant discussion of just how difficult it is to win against prepared opponents post-side w icky. the hate shuts you down completely, and hits play turn 1 every time. meanwhile your answers are haphazard and easily thwarted, esp in manaless icky. I suspect that even given ickys hugely favorable game1 chances vs the field, its post-side chances are so stunted, it has overall <50% chance of winning a match vs someone who knows what theyre doing.

Indeed I didn't get into those games very in depth, because the article was meant to be a step into how Ichorid functions. Not about "Why being Ichorid facing post-side Ichorid hate is not the worst thing you can possibly be in vintage", although I disagree with your statement that the answers are haphazard and easily thwarted I do agree that you are losing a high percentage going down to at least 50% games 2 and 3.

theres almost no point in talking about the normal icky strategy. write an article:

I disagree here, I've not seen writing on the "normal" Ichorid strategy since Meadbert wrote his primer and even then it wasn't that much. Now I don't claim to be an "expert" regarding dredge but I have had my fair share of experience playing the deck from it's first incarnations to the current ones. I've seen numerous Ichorid pilots falter and fail when they really shouldn't have because they missed some basic understanding about the deck, which is a lot harder to pilot correctly then most people give it credit for. All I tried to do is offer some insight on the workings of the deck and I hope I succeeded in giving just that.

[BruiZar]

Meadberts thread is the most comprehensive source on Ichorid. Smemmen wrote an article about dredge too, even calling it the boogieman of vintage like you did in your article so I suspect you have seen another article touch dredge

The first line of your article addresses the fact that people think the deck is void of skill. Obviously, players that think so base their judgment on game 1 only. That is why I would have loved to read more about postboard matches. Mulligan decisions aren't that hard for Ichorid Game 1, and that is the only game you handled in the article. I hope you can do a more in depth follow up on this article describing various tough match ups and how you outplay the hate. I would love to see not a list of potential sideboard cards, but the cards you play in action and how you force through inevitability.

[Marske]

Meadberts thread is the most comprehensive source on Ichorid. Smemmen wrote an article about dredge too, even calling it the boogieman of vintage like you did in your article so I suspect you have seen another article touch dredge Smile

Sure I've obviously read the thread and the articles (although I haven't been active in posting about this deck) Meadbert has done a great job and that thread is an amazing resource for sure. All I tried to offer was a comprehensive look into dredge, wading through 4 pages of discussion about which target to pick looking for how to actually play the deck isn't something new players are looking forward too. This article, like most of the stuff I've written is aimed at the starting player, I'm trying to give those people which take up a huge clunk of these boards a easy way to get into what makes decks tick (even if I may or may not succeed in doing this)

The first line of your article addresses the fact that people think the deck is void of skill. Obviously, players that think so base their judgment on game 1 only. That is why I would have loved to read more about postboard matches. Mulligan decisions aren't that hard for Ichorid Game 1, and that is the only game you handled in the article. I hope you can do a more in depth follow up on this article describing various tough match ups and how you outplay the hate. I would love to see not a list of potential sideboard cards, but the cards you play in action and how you force through inevitability.

This would indeed be a very interesting exercise and I'll definitely keep that in mind for a follow up article. All the talk about post-board matches means nothing if you don't have a basic understanding of what makes the deck work, I've actually faced opponents who didn't know how Ichorid worked... Having to explain how the deck functions I came to realize it's something that some players don't even grasp. Like stated before, my target audience with the "Lets talk about X shall we..." articles is the novice Vintage (or first time deck) player. If I were to go in depth on the post board games that would have meant this article would be almost twice as long and not really comprehensive for the target audience.

Looks like I'll be doing an advanced series as well

[vroman]

As you can see from my list I run 4 Narcomoeba and 3 Ichorid so there would be 4 creatures left in the deck, the Fatestitcher hardly matters in the equation because you need U to actually get it into play so you'll not have 2 of them in play along with Bazaar. Although the numbers add up I'd be very skeptical about removing almost half of the creatures I'd need to dread return, maybe it's an obvious mistake on my part but I'd not remove 3 of those creatures in hopes of a better 7. I would find going to 6 with Bazaar and those creatures in the deck (which make the ratio for actually finding and using them a bit higher) worth this potential risk.

if you have single U mana you can return an arbitrary number of fatestitchers. fatestitcher#1 untaps the land used for U, then tap it again to return fatestitcher#2, repeat. this is frequently a vital play to get off a dread return when narcomeba has been extirpated or something. that hand had gemstone mine in it, so I assume its mana ichorid. that means youve got 7 lands in 53 cards so 1 in 7.6. between your opening hand and first bazaar draws you see 9 cards so odds are good w that ratio you will have U. so if you play right, it should be no problem at all to get 3 guys on turn 3, even after losing half the primary creatures. its an easy empirical test. exile your sample hand, put a bazaar on top of library, draw 7 and see how often you get to 3 guys on turn 3. negligibly less often than w a full deck. vs the very real increased risk of muling to 1, once your heading to 6.
you have to play w what youve got, and if you mul to oblivion youve got nothing. any deck can mul to a basically unplayable hand, but no other deck is as likely to do so nor so completely dead in the water once it muls past point of no return. it would take a pretty extreme case for me to not use serum in non-bazaar hand. I think theoretically Id probably serum even the triple dread return hand. its better to kill on turn 5 or so w ickies and zombies, then just roll a D12 and on a one you scoop turn 0.

Indeed I didn't get into those games very in depth, because the article was meant to be a step into how Ichorid functions.

I think its pretty important basic point to newcomers how terribly vulnerable icky is to yard-hate and how consistently opponents will have it on turn 1 and how difficult it is to overcome

[Marske]

if you have single U mana you can return an arbitrary number of fatestitchers. fatestitcher#1 untaps the land used for U, then tap it again to return fatestitcher#2, repeat. this is frequently a vital play to get off a dread return when narcomeba has been extirpated or something. that hand had gemstone mine in it, so I assume its mana ichorid. that means youve got 7 lands in 53 cards so 1 in 7.6. between your opening hand and first bazaar draws you see 9 cards so odds are good w that ratio you will have U. so if you play right, it should be no problem at all to get 3 guys on turn 3, even after losing half the primary creatures. its an easy empirical test. exile your sample hand, put a bazaar on top of library, draw 7 and see how often you get to 3 guys on turn 3. negligibly less often than w a full deck. vs the very real increased risk of muling to 1, once your heading to 6.
you have to play w what youve got, and if you mul to oblivion youve got nothing. any deck can mul to a basically unplayable hand, but no other deck is as likely to do so nor so completely dead in the water once it muls past point of no return. it would take a pretty extreme case for me to not use serum in non-bazaar hand. I think theoretically Id probably serum even the triple dread return hand. its better to kill on turn 5 or so w ickies and zombies, then just roll a D12 and on a one you scoop turn 0.

I'll sure be testing this out in real life to get a better feel for it. Looks like I still got some stuff to learn about Ichorid as well

I think its pretty important basic point to newcomers how terribly vulnerable icky is to yard-hate and how consistently opponents will have it on turn 1 and how difficult it is to overcome

I agree on it being very valuable information, but I decided on focusing on the working of the deck rather then it's weaknesses. Like I stated in my reply on Bruizars posts, I felt like the more in depth view on this subject almost warranted an entire article on it's self. Without the basic understanding of what makes the deck work discussing it's strong points and weaknesses becomes a lot less relevant imo. A lot of the "standard" graveyard hate can actually be played around if you have a clue how to pilot the deck, it's stuff like Leyline and Extirpate that's really troublesome, but as this has generated so much attention already I'll work it into an article for next week.

[bb-g]

With this hand:

Bazaar of Baghdad, Gemstone Mine, Golgari Thug, Unmask, Cabal Therapy, Stinkweed Imp, Chalice of the Void

Is none of the suggested plays is the better one

Line of play #1
Play Bazaar of Baghdad, Play Chalice of the Void for Zero, Draw 2 cards and probably pitch Stinkweed Imp, Golgari Thug and Cabal Therapy.

Line of play #2
Play Bazaar, Play Unmask (pitching Golgari Thug), Chalice for Zero, Draw 2 cards and probably pitch Stinkweed Imp, Therapy and a card you took from Bazaar.


Line of play #3
Play Gemstone mine, play Unmask (pitching Golgari Thug), potentially play Cabal Therapy grabbing some bomb you saw with Unmask, Play Chalice of the Void

Each suggested line of play should start with Unmask pitching Golgari Thug instead of dropping a land. You limit your options by playing your land before gathering all information

[Marske]

@BB-G,
We've already discussed this in depth and you know it.... regardless it's a valid question so I'll offer my insights on this:

Opening with Gemstone mine is never going to be "the best" play you're going to make so it doesn't really matter that you open with Bazaar, regardless of what the opponent has in his hand. With Gemstone you drop Bazaar on turn 2, dredge on turn 3 and win on turn 4. When opening with bazaar you setup dredging turn 2 and winning turn 3. The risk of the opponent getting back from an opening like: Bazaar, Unmask, Chalice @ Zero, turn 2 dredge and possible Therapy is perfectly acceptable for me because A)your opponent would need the nuts in his hand (either way you're not winning that) or B) needs to win within 2 turns.  You're giving away an entire turn in fear of running into the insane hand of the opponent that might race you which imo isn't acceptable. I'd take the chance of running into broken topdecks over giving away an extra turn in fear of them any day of the week with Ichorid. Most decks won't be able to race you.

[bb-g]

Each suggested line of play should start with Unmask pitching Golgari Thug instead of dropping a land. You limit your options by playing your land before gathering all information

this is regardless of whatever reason you can/try to bring up (except in the one case where you play fish with maindeck dazes and they have allready had a landdrop). I'm not giving you any slack on this one   ! You limit your lines of play when it isn't needed by playing your land first, that's the point i'm making and willing to defend until I die!

[Marske]

@BB-G,
Relax, I agree with that... it's a minor issue at best... Regardless of unmasking before you make a land drop you can't argue that opening with Gemstone and losing an entire turn is a valid option. So either way you're opening with Bazaar which makes the entire discussion whether or not to drop a land before / after you unmask irrelevant with this hand. Sure there are hands in which it would matter but this is definitely not one of them.

[bb-g]

Like we yesterday discussed: in my opinion this entirely depends on the hand you're seeing with the unmask. But as I said: if my opponent has land, mox, tinker, tv , lotus, chain of vapor and repeal, i'l definatly would be wanting to be able to cast that cabal therapy instead of dredging.

[bb-g]

@BB-G,
Relax, I agree with that... it's a minor issue at best... Regardless of unmasking before you make a land drop you can't argue that opening with Gemstone and losing an entire turn is a valid option. So either way you're opening with Bazaar which makes the entire discussion whether or not to drop a land before / after you unmask irrelevant with this hand. Sure there are hands in which it would matter but this is definitely not one of them.

I have to thank XdeckX for providing me the excemple but yes, we found one proving that it isn't guaranteed the best play to drop the Bazaar first turn. If you find a wasteland Unmasking your opponent, then it is a better play to therapy yourself for the imp, dredging in your drawstep and hoping for another dredger to hit the graveyard, play bazaar and dredge again.

[XdeckX]

Just for reference for the rest of the readers the example I gave BB-G.

With the given hand (Bazaar of Baghdad, Gemstone Mine, Golgari Thug, Unmask, Cabal Therapy, Stinkweed Imp, Chalice of the Void) you should always start with Unmask no matter what. Even before playing a land. This gives you valuable information on the plays to follow.

Example 1 (Marskes variation)
Turn 1
Play Unmask (pitch Thug) and remove something. You see a Wasteland in your opponents hand
Play Chalice@0
Play Bazaar, draw 2, discard Imp, C.Therapy + 1 of the drawn cards (lets say for sake of argument it's not a dredge-card)
End the turn

Opponent plays Wasteland and destroys your Bazaar.

Turn 2 all you can do is dredge the Imp during your Drawstep. You have no way to discard the Imp again. If you hit a dredger while dredging the Imp you can continue dredging on turn 3 but you will end up with dredgers in hand and no way to get rid of them. (you could have saved the C.Therapy when discarding on turn 1 so you can play it on yourself on turn 2 to get the Imp in de grave again)

Example 2 (XdeckX variation)
Play Unmask (pitch Thug) and remove something. You see a Wasteland in your opponents hand
Play Chalice@0
Play G.Mine
Play C.Therapy targetting yourself and discard Imp.
End the turn

Opponent plays Wasteland

Turn 2
Drawstep dredge Imp.
Play Bazaar and activate. If you hit a dredger while dredging the Imp you could replace the draw and continue dredging. If not you draw 2. Discard Imp + other cards.

You will have at least 1 dredger in your grave by turn 3 so you can continue dredging regardless if you found a dredger with Imp or bazaar.

[Marske]

@BB-G, XdeckX,
Ok so 99.9% of the time it's still the best play to open with Bazaar...

Line of play #1

Play Bazaar of Baghdad, Play Chalice of the Void for Zero, Draw 2 cards and probably pitch Stinkweed Imp, Golgari Thug and Cabal Therapy.

This line of play seems like a fairly obvious opening because you have a decent disruption piece in chalice stopping your opponents Moxen and Lotus from hitting play, if Chalice gets countered you have traded disruption and possible gas for your chalice which isn't bad either. You have dredgers in your graveyard to stop dredging next turn and Therapy to start stripping their hand. If you hit a Fatestitcher during dredging you even have the mana source to use it. Depending on the cards you draw from Bazaar you can also have Unmask.

But you have zero information on the opponent, all you did was setup your deck to do what it does, but what if your opponent has enough mana to just go for it turn 1 or has a maindeck hate piece that he can play (Pithing needle, Mogg Fanatic etc) it may seem unlikely but people do play cards that can interact with you game 1. Mana'd Ichorid unlike Manaless doesn't want to open very explosive, you have inevitability on your side so it's best to start disrupting the opponent. You can't even be sure you draw the needed black card to Unmask them.
 
Line of play #2

Play Bazaar, Play Unmask (pitching Golgari Thug), Chalice for Zero, Draw 2 cards and probably pitch Stinkweed Imp, Therapy and a card you took from Bazaar.

This line of play enables you to make gather information on the opponents hand (and presumable deck) I chose pitching Thug over pitching Therapy because Therapy can offer more disruption turn 2 after we've played our mana source if needed. Pitching the highest dredger (Imp) is foolish for obvious reasons, you play 12 dredgers main deck so you have to bank on those 7 cards you're going to see next (2 from Bazaar this turn and at least 5 from your draw step dredging the imp back, not to mention the possible number of dredgers from your second Bazaar activation or even the third if you hit a Fatestitcher next turn). This can also assure you in most cases that Chalice of the Void hits play, which is a very valuable piece of disruption in it's own right slowing your opponent down even more along with the stopping of potential turn 1 kill shenanigans.

Line of play #3

Play Gemstone mine, play Unmask (pitching Golgari Thug), potentially play Cabal Therapy grabbing some bomb you saw with Unmask, Play Chalice of the Void

This line of play is very disruptive and can be valid when you know what the opponent is playing. This can be a very good starting play if you're up against decks that can otherwise just race you. Although you haven't setup anything and you've cost yourself a turn in winning the chances are you've cost your opponent even more with this very disruptive opening. All 3 lines of play offer valid choices and show that Ichorid has lines of play that aren't just simply play Bazaar of Baghdad, Dredge and Win. As with everything from Mulligans to starting hands and lines of play we can look at all sorts of starting hands and determine if they are playable and what lines of play would produce the best play but I feel that would take an entire article on it's self to do it justice.

Seriously, this entire discussion is a exercise in nitpicking. I've offered 3 possible openings with 1 possible hand out of a hundred possible hands and openings and I didn't even suggest which opening I'd pick myself in the article as seen above nor did I express any sentiment as to which one was preferred I merely gave examples based on the patterns most players will use. Make a land drop, possibly play spells, possibly attack / play spells during combat etc

We can argue about which land to tap for mana to play Fatestitcher (City or Gemstone) which land to play first, etc all day long but I felt such discussions didn't belong into a "beginning players" type of article that lets people see how a deck could possible play out. I've not once suggested "this is the best line of play" during the entire article, the only suggestions I made were regarding whether or not to mulligan certain hands and even then I tried to offer my own views and reason and didn't say: This is Always going to be right. I firmly believe that opening with Bazaar will be correct a very large percentage of the times, but I agree that opening with Unmask is the superior line of play.  It could be my own play style but unless the opponent has the hand of Land, Mox, Lotus, Tinker, Timevault, Chain, Repeal you suggested I'm always going to play Bazaar.

Now, if the opponent has Wasteland you'll be in a world of hurt regardless of your opening line of play because you'll either need to hit a Dredger if you choose to open with Unmask, Gemstone, Therapy yourself (grabbing the imp) turn 2 dredge the imp, play bazaar and hopefully hit a dredger you'll still most likely not win turn 3 and you'll have seen a total of 14 cards for sure and if you hit a dredger maybe even more. With my line of play you'll see a total of: 7 from the draw, 2 from Bazaar, possible 5 from the imp (which was pitched to bazaar turn 1) for a total of 14 cards. Sure I haven't won turn 3 either but with your line of play setting up such an agressive dredge could also have you dredging away a second bazaar to replace the wasted one. I would prefer to "slow play" a bit more and not dredge so aggressive in search of a second Bazaar that I want in play and not in my graveyard. You have inevitability on your side and if they are playing wastelands maindeck chances are you're facing Stax and you'll not be winning very vast regardless (unless you have an insane nuts hand) from the time the first sphere hits play you won't be able to use dread return very effective and you'll be slowed down a bit.

[XdeckX]

Marske
Of course you're in for a tough ride if you opponent has a Wasteland.
Thats why opening with Unmask is the best play with that hand if you ask me (but we already establised this)

If your opponent does indeed have a Wasteland my example will show you 12 cards by turn 3 (with no extra dredgers found)
On the other hand your plays will lead to a maximum of 8 cards by turn 3 (again no extra dredgers)

I know I'm playing a worst case scenario here but isnt that something we should discuss anyway?

Seeing as many cards as possible is the best course of action is you ask me. But I'll admit that I'm no Ichorid played so if anyone feels I'm incorrect please feel free to share your views.

[Marske]

@XdeckX,

Now, if the opponent has Wasteland you'll be in a world of hurt regardless of your opening line of play because you'll either need to hit a Dredger if you choose to open with Unmask, Gemstone, Therapy yourself (grabbing the imp) turn 2 dredge the imp, play bazaar and hopefully hit a dredger you'll still most likely not win turn 3 and you'll have seen a total of 14 cards for sure and if you hit a dredger maybe even more. With my line of play you'll see a total of: 7 from the draw, 2 from Bazaar, possible 5 from the imp (which was pitched to bazaar turn 1) for a total of 14 cards.

Only real difference is you've got dredgers in the yard and I don't... I would prefer to "slow play" and hopefully not dredge away a second bazaar, if you hit that you can start dredging even again. If you dredge and whiff but did dredge away a second or god forbid a 3rd bazaar (it can happen) you're in a WORLD of hurt from which you can't possibly return.