Oath of Druids Post-Zendikar

[MirariKnight]

There's been a lot of discussion of Oath in the Iona thread, for good reason. I'm starting this thread for 2 reasons:
1) To consolidate the discussion of Oath to its own thread, which should allow for more open discussion of Iona's applications in her own thread, perhaps in Dredge.
2) As my Full Member thread, I actually had this written up before the discussion progressed in the other thread


While I believe that even now, pre-Zendikar, Oath of Druids is a strong contender in this metagame, some cards recently spoiled give it just the power boost it needs to be truly competitive again with one Brainstorm. These new cards are: Iona, Shield of Emeria and Misty Rainforest and Mindbreak Trap.

Here is my proposed decklist:
Land: 17
4 Forbidden Orchard
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Stip Mine
2 Wasteland

Artifacts: 13
5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Null Rod

Instants: 13
4 Force of Will
1 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Mana Drain
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Echoing Truth

Sorceries: 9
3 Thoughtseize
1 Tinker
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Ponder
1 Life from the Loam
1 Gaea’s Blessing

Enchantments: 6
4 Oath of Druids
2 Mystic Remora

Creatures: 2
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind

Sideboard: 15
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Helm of Obedience
2 Pithing Needle
1 Balance
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Rebuild
1 Trinisphere
1 Hellkite Overlord
1 Karthus, Tyrant of Jund
2 Oxidize/Ancient Grudge (respond to the Blessing trigger with Grudge)

I’ll explain my choices:
Since Brainstorm was restricted, I have had trouble justifying playing Oath, my favorite deck. Although my initial reaction was not a particularly excited one, I revoke my earlier thoughts on Iona, Shield of Emeria. She offers exactly what Oath has been needing. She is the perfect win condition vs. most of the field. Tyrant is too limiting to the rest of the deck, Progenitus is too slow w/o disrupting, and Hellkite/Akroma is simply too vulnerable and doesn’t even guarantee a win (I’ve won more than a few games vs. Oath when they have Oathed up Hellkite and Akroma), and Platinum Angel is way too slow and vulnerable. Iona is the perfect mix of damage and disruption. She provides a nice clock while making your opponents deck totally useless. The attacking is just a formality.
The rest of the deck is the tried and true ICBM shell + Null Rods. There is no reason not to run either Vault/Key or Null Rod in the current metagame. Since most of the deck is geared towards disruption and it is fairly easy to play under, I chose Rod over Vault/Key. Rod combined with Remora ups the win percentage vs. Drains considerably, as permission is a tough matchup for Oath. The fact that they play Confidant now is very good for Oath.
The combination of Chalice, Null Rod, Counters, Thoughtseize and Wasteland should be enough to stall the game out till you can drop Oath. Remora provides the draw engine that Oath has been sorely lacking. Mindbreak Trap, although obviously untested, seems like a perfect replacement for Misdirection, a card I have always found to be lacking. Misty Rainforest allows us to run the basic Forest without too much mana trouble, which is a tremendous help because Oath has traditionally been weak to Wastelands (all the green sources have traditionally been non-basic).

There has been a lot of discussion about the Living Wish/Painter's and Jailer strategy. I personally don't feel this is necessary as Iona is crippling enough, but I will provide my reasoning (from the Iona thread):
While in the abstract it is true that the opponent might have the answer in the other color to Iona, in a practical game situation you just shut off their deck. The chance that they have the removal card in the color you didn't name + a way of dealing with the upcoming Hellkite or whatever it may be, and that you don't have a counter/Duress effect are small. I've played Oath for a long time. The last thing I'd want to do is Oath up Painter's Servant. I might as well not have Oathed at all.
If you want to go with the Living Wish idea, that might be better, not necessarily for the lock with Painter but more for the 2nd win condition with Grindstone. Oath never has a backup plan and this would be nice, but I don't think it's necessary. There are two problems with this plan: you have to maindeck Grindstone which is totally dead, and you can't run Null Rod, which I think is 100% necessary in Oath right now. If you want to just use Living Wish without the Grindstone win, then you have another dead card maindeck and in the board that are only good if you have Oathed already (read: are winning).
As for Jailer as another wish target that seems interesting, but I'm worried that by the time you can Wish + get Jailer online, Dredge has already won. I think it's probably better in general to just lose game 1 barring a miracle and win the next two, although the ability to do Jailer is a decently compelling reason to run Living Wish and is probably worth testing.

2 things I am not sure of: Remora and Mana Drain. If there any replacement for Remora, please tell me, but it seems to be the best draw that I can fit in here at the moment. Lim Dul's Vault might be good to ensure you hit Iona first, but it doesn't net you cards, and the deck is prone to entering topdeck mode too early. Drains might be tough to cast with the manabase being as it is, but I am irrationally attached to the card so feel free to replace with Negate/Spell Snare/more Duress effects/something totally different. Sphinx is guy #2 because you can Tinker her out, but something like Tidespout Tyrant or Hellkite might be better. I just like the "5th" Oath option with Tinker.

The board seems pretty standard except for Balance. I believe this card should go in any deck that can support it. When you fall behind, it’s often the only way out. It also answers stupid things like losing to spirit tokens, Elves combo, the guy playing Extended Zoo that somehow cut your Oaths to the bottom of your deck, etc. Hellkites come in for Stax only, as Iona sucks here and we need the speed. Obeyline is the alternate win vs. Ichoird. Helm as the Tinker target seems to be the way to go; I’ve always addressed the matchup this way with Oath.

I’m totally open to any suggestions and I look forward to seeing Oath once again be a force in the metagame.

[jewfro]

Because its an oath deck, wouldn't duress be better than thoughtseize?
If you are going to play drain, i might cut back on the wastelands and strip mine to help your mana base as you mentioned.
the living wish idea is interesting, but i agree that the jailer wish plan won't help stop dredge.
how would mindbreak trap add anything to the deck?

[Scyther]

UH, I really like the new angel. i will get one ASAP. =)
the rainforests are worth it too. not a totally must for oath, cause most time u need the orchard anyway, but its really good to make the manabase super safe.

for your built. don't know if i like the lack of impulse. is remora really that good?
plus, only 3 chalice? what are you doing with it other than "anti-moxing" ^^
Loam + Blessing? explain pls. =)
and why not jut play the Inkwell instead of the sphinx? or the Emyrial Archangel seems like a worthy compliment to the angel.

[voltron00x]

Here's the list I'd play today.  I played it yesterday, splitting in the finals of a 32-player tournament, and it felt considerably better than the list I made T8 with two weeks prior in NY (which is in the same ICBM vein and had 4x Chalice main and 3x Null Rod in the SB):

4 Oath of Druids
3 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
4 Force of Will
4 Impulse
1 Voltaic Key
1 Time Vault
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Lim Dul's Vault
1 Ponder
1 Brainstorm
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Misdirection
1 Wipe Away
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Regrowth
2 Hellkite Overlord
1 Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund
5 Mox
1 Black Lotus
1 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
3 Polluted Delta 
2 Flooded Strand
4 Forbidden Orchard

SB:
1 Oxidize
1 Krosan Grip
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 REB
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Smother
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Pithing Needle
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Empyrial Archangel

I made one last-minute change before the event, which was to move an Ancient Grudge from the SB to the main, adding another Tormod's to the SB, and then cutting a Crucible of Worlds from the deck and swapping the 2nd Wasteland into a 2nd Tropical Island to help the mana.

This list mulligans less and hits way harder than any previous build I've played.  The SB is also much stronger against the entire field of current Vintage than anything I've played in the past.  Yes, sometimes you need two Oath activations to win with this list - sometimes.  Other times you tutor up Yawgmoth's Will and win immediately, or just make your opponent try to answer with Oath and then Key/Vault them instead.  I will happily continue to play this version, for sure.  I'm also 100% sold on not playing Gaea's Blessing and running 3 creatures and Yawgmoth's Will. 

That said, I will be testing Iona.  She does seem pretty powerful.  I'd consider a one-of in place of Karrthus.

[BruiZar]

I'd throw out Remora. Chalice doesnt seem that strong with   and   CMC cards. Your deck is dying for some Ancient Grudges (which you oath nicely into your graveyard, ready for crippling flashback versus vault/keys, moxen, juggernauts, tanglewires and karns. I think I would add Timetwister and Wheel of Fortune just so you have something to top deck that can put you back in the game. Twister is alot of fun with Blessing shuffling it back too. As long as you can get Iona in play fast enough, your opponent won't be using his new hand much anyway.


If you're Vault/Keying, isn't Sharuum a better 2nd creature to play? That should work right?

[MirariKnight]

Thoughtseize was in the list when I still had Progenitus, I forgot to switch back to Duress (you can seize yourself if Progenitus is in your hand to get him back in the library).
Mindbreak Trap replaces Misdirection which I've always hated. It serves the same purpose except for stealing Ancestral without having to lose 2 cards, plus it helps in the storm matchup, one that isn't particularly good.

voltron -
In you last article you talked about cutting Vault/Key, now it's back. I'm really curious as to your thought process. I've toyed with it myself and found that I'd rather just run Null Rod main, as it seems equally likely to win you the game but isn't spread across two singletons.
I do really like the Crucible idea. Losing Orchard really hurts, plus it allows the waste/strip recursion and has synergy with Oath without having the antisynergy with Blessing that Loam has.
If you ran Iona, your creature configuration would be Iona, Hellkite x2? I would think Karrthus would be better than the 2nd Hellkite no? He seems perfect in here.

Bruizar -
Ancient Grudge is amazing in Oath (respond to the Blessing trigger with the Flashback) and I agree that it probably should be maindecked.
Chalice I like but Remora should probably go. It just really needs a draw engine and I hate Impulse/Lim-Dul's since they don't get you more cards than you started with.
You could potentially do 2x Sharuum as the creatures if you do Vault/Key, each one bringing up a piece of the combo, they kill themselves but Blessing puts them back in, Oath one up and win. This is of course assuming that you Oath Vault and Key into the yard, and I really don't think it's that necessary. You can just Regrowth/Yawg Will instead.

[voltron00x]

It's actually pretty simple - the decks that Chalice and Null Rod are good against aren't making up enough of the meta of my last 19 rounds that I'd prefer them over Key/Vault.  My previous experiment with that type of list didn't push the envelope far enough; it wasn't greedy enough.  This list is very greedy, but it mulligans less and has considerably fewer turns where you're just drawing chaff instead of business, and it also has a MUCH better sideboard against the decks that are seeing play.  I think against a wider field, that's exactly what you want: raw power and flexibility.

Also, I'm not seeing much Fish or G/W locally, so the decks that made me want to avoid Time Vault are also a small part of the meta. 

[Killane]

As anyone reading the Iona thread knows, I've been pushing the Living Wish with painter plan. I'll post a list tomorrow, but I do admit the arguements against it as essentially a win more have merit. I'll be testing it both ways once I cam get my hands on the cards needed from Zendikar. That said, regarding the above list, the chalices seem sub-optimal for the curremt meta, plus there seem to be a few elements missing. I'd cut the chalices for a fourth null rod, a vampirc tutor, and a lim-dul's vault.

[MirariKnight]

Also, I'm not seeing much Fish or G/W locally, so the decks that made me want to avoid Time Vault are also a small part of the meta. 

I've only been out of Long Island for a month and I already forgot no one plays Fish in NY/PA.
Yeah I would definitely play Vault/Key if I were you.

How has Wipe Away been? I used to run it to dodge Chalice 2 but I've always hated it. Chain of Vapor has the drawback of letting them get rid of your guy. Is there any other 1 mana bounce spell, or 3 mana without UU in the cost?

[hitman]

Rushing River.

[voltron00x]

Yeah there are basically two options, Rushing River or Wipe Away.

Rushing River only costs one blue, and can hit two permanents if needed... but I prefer Wipe Away.  The fact that it can't be countered is very relevant, because its the ideal answer to bounce Sphinx of the Steel Wind.

I love Hurkyl's Recall and Echoing Truth but obviously neither help against Chalice on 2.

[silvernail]

how often do people playing oath use chalice on 2 considering it blocks oath itself ?

You could use Curfew to bounce a singleton creature, there is also Repulse at 2U that hits a creature, Repeal hits anything and can nail chalice at 2 if chalice at 1 is not out, Rebuild can deal with multiple artifacts and cycles when you dont need it. Basic boomerangs at 2U would be Consign to Dreams, Regress, Venser's Diffusion, Resounding Wave and Deliver from Stand/Deliver.

If you have W available you have various disenchant variants at 2W as well as Oblivion Ring.

Personally , I'd think a Rebuild along 1 or 2 Repeal would be ideal.

[voltron00x]

how often do people playing oath use chalice on 2 considering it blocks oath itself ?

You could use Curfew to bounce a singleton creature, there is also Repulse at 2U that hits a creature, Repeal hits anything and can nail chalice at 2 if chalice at 1 is not out, Rebuild can deal with multiple artifacts and cycles when you dont need it. Basic boomerangs at 2U would be Consign to Dreams, Regress, Venser's Diffusion, Resounding Wave and Deliver from Stand/Deliver.

If you have W available you have various disenchant variants at 2W as well as Oblivion Ring.

Personally , I'd think a Rebuild along 1 or 2 Repeal would be ideal.

The problem isn't Oath playing Chalice at 2, its Workshop decks.  I lost two games out of five against 5C Stax a week ago due to Chalice on 2.  That's unacceptable to me.

Rebuild is a decent possibility, but I still think I like Wipe Away, at least for my meta.  There were 5 players running Oath out of 32 on Saturday - playing Wipe Away gives me a strategic advantage in that match-up, and it is still my bounce spell of choice against Sphinx.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

@ jewfro
you definately want thoughtseize over duress in oath for magus of the moon alone. Sometimes you even need to snag welder/goyf/or bob depending on what your access to oath is.

This is a ways off, but if oath ends up seeing a lot of play, I can see my self sbing out a colorless source or off colored mox for a forest to combat the amount of bloodmoon effects that will follow. Keep in mind this makes it so you want to play negates and a bounce spell other than wipe away, at least post sb, and makes oxidize a much safer play against shops. Also an out to cotv@2

for what I've been seeing, balance is seeing a lot of play in oath sb, so its not really a choice you need to explain. wrathtwistageddon seems good at   .

Your not sure of mana drain. It played oath with mana drain and 3 colorless sources immidiately after brainstorm's restriction, even top 8'd the icbm open that month  . Over all I did not like it and found them being pitched to fow.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

sry, double post

[Andreas]

Since I am not that familiar with Oath decks, could someone please explain why Chalice of the Void is generally considered an auto-include, at least in the disruption heavier versions?

Obviously you don't want to play them at 2. At 1 they may be useful, but with 4+ Duress effects, Ponder, vampiric etc. they are at least against non-combo Decks very symmetrical. At 0 they are only really good on the play.

[BruiZar]

Since I am not that familiar with Oath decks, could someone please explain why Chalice of the Void is generally considered an auto-include, at least in the disruption heavier versions?

Obviously you don't want to play them at 2. At 1 they may be useful, but with 4+ Duress effects, Ponder, vampiric etc. they are at least against non-combo Decks very symmetrical. At 0 they are only really good on the play.

This is why i wouldn't play Chalice

[Killane]

seconded- null rod seems like a much better disruptive choice in the current meta. My understanding is that they were originally adapted when Storm was a larger part of the meta, as loosing post Oath to a fully executed Tendrils is a real (and sucky) experience that an Oath pilot faces. Yet another reason that Iona is, IMHO, the best Oath target ever printed.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

Since I am not that familiar with Oath decks, could someone please explain why Chalice of the Void is generally considered an auto-include, at least in the disruption heavier versions?

Obviously you don't want to play them at 2. At 1 they may be useful, but with 4+ Duress effects, Ponder, vampiric etc. they are at least against non-combo Decks very symmetrical. At 0 they are only really good on the play.

It's a pretty good mana denial play, complimenting the strips, but also cotv@1 has historicly been an incredibly strong play shutting off things like brainsorm,vamp,mystical,duress,ancestral, goblin welder, chain of vapor, ponder, repeal, stp, path, and dark ritual good stuff you opponant has, or has more of(your 6 to there 13), and stuff that isn't needed for your game plan the same way it is for yours. Playing it over nullrod for mana denial allows you to play scroll rack and top. Obviously right now cotv won't turn off vault though, hurns.

[Killane]

Ok, here's my build so far for the Living Wish plan, with detailed explanation and sideboard plans below:


Iona Null Oath

Land (17):
4 Forbidden Orchard
4 Misty Forest
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Forest
2 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Artifacts (10):
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
4 Moxen (not pearl)
4 Null Rod

Creatures (1):
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

Enchantments (7):
4 Oath Of Druids
3 Mystic Remora

Instants (15):
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Thirst For Knowledge

2 Remand
4 Force Of Will
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Misdirection
1 Echoing Truth

1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Lim-Dul's vault

Sorceries (10):
3 Thoughtseize

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Ponder
1 Time Walk

1 Gaea's Blessing
3 Living Wish

Sideboard
2 Hellkite Overlord
1 Karrthus, Tyrant Of Jund
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Yixlid Jailer
1 Painter's Servant
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Ancient Grudge
4 Leyline Of The Void
2 Pithing Needle




Card by Card:

Core/Obvious choices

4 Oath of Druids
1 Iona
1 Gaea's Blessing
4 Force Of Will (there are now 19 blue cards)
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk

These cards are the core of the deck, and they have all been discussed extensively with regards to Oath.

Mana:

1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
4 Moxen (not pearl)
4 Forbidden Orchard
4 Misty Forest
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Forest
2 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

I know that many people will question not running pearl. I have not run Pearl in Oath for the last year or so. I've tested in a number of times, but I've never found it to increase my goldfish percentage of T1 Oath by an appreciable amount. If I were to run it, I'd need to cut a Remora, and I think 3 is the minimum number for Remora to be effective. There's not much else in the list to cut for Pearl. Misty Forest is a huge boon for Oath, allowing a basic forest and increased resilience to Wasteland.

Disruption/Control

4 Null Rod

In a Tezzeret dominated metagame, and with the rise of the new Steel City Vault deck, this should be very strong. Plus it shuts off fast mana for Storm decks.

2 Remand

In my opinion this is one of two questionable choices on this list. I have been loving this card in Double Dragon Oath due to the cantrip factor and the huge tempo gain. It sets them back just long enough to finish the job. However, maybe this should be negate for the hard counter. This will need allot of testing, but I did see an improvement in my Double Dragon game when I switched out the negates for this.

1 Mindbreak Trap

This spell has had some extensive discussion recently. Its presence forces a good opponent to play around it, and slows the game down in the first few turns which is good for Oath. It offers random wins against Storm combo, isn't terrible to hardcast, and removes the threat from YawgWin shenanigans as well. Love it- maybe there should be two?

1 Misdirection

I have always found this to be solid to grab Ancestrals, and I hesitate to substitute a more conditional pitch spell for it (ie a second Mindbreak trap), but maybe it should be another Trap?? This needs more testing to be sure.

3 Thoughtseize

I want to run this over Duress as Magus of the Moon =  extremely bad mojo. Without Oath in hand, I have found seizing confidant is often the right play, and even if the Oath is there it may still be correct depending on what else is in the opponent's hand, the board state, and what deck you are facing.

1 Echoing Truth

I'd rather have this than Chain of Vapor in an Oath deck 7 days a week and twice on Sunday. Chain becomes a risky move when you have an Oath on the board, even worse post Oath. Truth offers an out to the rare Empty the Warrens win.

Draw / Tutor

3 Mystic Remora

This draw engine is hot hot hot right now. I was a skeptic, but after some testing... wow. It often completely warps the opponents game plan. Love it.

1 Thirst For Knowledge
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Ponder

I don't think these choices really need much explanation.

1 Lim-Dul's vault

Fixing your draw for two mana, five cards deep? check. Avoiding mana flood or screw? check. Dodging drawing the blessing? check. Pay enough life to virtual tutor? check. Post board controlling what Oath's up first? check. Awesome.

3 Living Wish

Ok, so I've left the most controversial choice for last (of the main deck). Why living wish, which takes up 3 slots, instead of another creature (Tyrant? Hellkite? Progenitus? Sphinx?) plus two more business cards (Tinker? Key +  Vault? Impulse??). Here's my rationale:

Living wish means you get Iona first, always.

This is the most compelling reason IMHO. Iona is better than any other Oath target by a substantial margin in the current meta. Most decks will be crippled as soon as she arrives. She shuts off Storm, preventing the post-oath win there. She is even harder to remove than Progentius in most circumstances. She offers a large, evasive body with a 3 hit clock. Elf auto-looses. etc.... This has been discussed at some length.

In situation where Iona does not auto-win, we need to look at the alternatives:

Tezz: pick blue and Tezz still has disruption (duress) tutors, Key-Vault, and a kill (Bob) and draw(Bob, some lists run night's whisper), and sometimes counterspells (pyroblast). pick black and Tezz still has draw, counter, bounces, Tezz himself, and Key-Vault. Key-Vault is the issue here, and (Tyrant? Hellkite? Progenitus? Sphinx?) don't help much against it, especially if you Oath up tyrant first.

Workshop: this is the only match that is really made worse by Iona. Game one she shuts off Welder and that's about it by herself. Tyrant doesn't do mush for use here either due to the mana denial, permanent heavy Workshop deck, against which it's hard to to cast lots of spells to bounce enough, plus maindecking him means you don;t get Iona first in other matches. Living wish for Painter's Servant makes Iona a hard lock against Workshop, preventing endless streams of Tanglewires with a Robot that Iona can;t block to kill you. Game two you board out Iona and the Wishes and bring in Karrthus plus Hellkites, and Ancient Grudge, and you get the nice game Double Dragon has against Workshop now.

Ichorid: Iona on black shuts off Return and Therapy, which should slow them down. Truth lets you bounce the zombie horde created by bridge, and Wish for Jailer shuts them down completely. This plan actually gives a shot at winning a difficult game one. None of the alternatives offer any help here, and Tyrant is the worst of the bunch vs. Ichorid as its clock is slow abysmally slow.

This analysis leads me to believe that getting Iona first, everytime, and using Living Wish to get the hard lock when needed with Painter, and shore up the Ichorid match-up is the best way to go.





Sideboard

2 Hellkite Overlord
1 Karrthus, Tyrant Of Jund

As mentioned above, this is for the Workshop match.

1 Sower of Temptation

This is living wish tech for the mirror, and in case the have a big enough force on the board (Fish, etc...) when you get Iona that a race seems tough.

1 Yixlid Jailer

Wish tech for Ichorid.

1 Painter's Servant

Wish tech- hard lock. need for the Tezz match as per above.

2 Mindbreak Trap

Best storm hate ever!

1 Ancient Grudge

Vs. Tezz and shop - flash it back in response to the Blessing Trigger.

4 Leyline Of The Void

Obvious.

2 Pithing Needle

shuts off vault, bazzar, etc... yummy!



Closing Thought

If I were to go with a second maindeck creature, I'd take out the Wishes and the Painter from the board and go with Tyrant plus a duress and a Tendrils maindeck, and some more Ichorid hate in the board (maybe a crypt). I might leave the Jailer in, as Oathing it up vs Ichorid would be just fine. I will be teasting this version, as I do think the arguements against Living Wish have some weight.

here's to Oath being a nice deck for the meta again. whoo-hooo!

What does everyone think?

[MirariKnight]

Having no 2nd creature maindeck would really worry me. You run Lim Dul's so you'll get Iona out, but no second creature just slows down their clock and increases the chance that they will deal with Iona (and if they do you have zero backup plan). There are plenty of options for second creatures you wouldn't be disappointed in Oathing up.

[Killane]

Having no 2nd creature maindeck would really worry me. You run Lim Dul's so you'll get Iona out, but no second creature just slows down their clock and increases the chance that they will deal with Iona (and if they do you have zero backup plan). There are plenty of options for second creatures you wouldn't be disappointed in Oathing up.

What do you think would provide good synergy with Iona? I'm not closed to the idea, it just seems to me that anything that prevents Iona from coming out first is less than ideal. Tyrant just seems to me to beg for its own build, is a slow clock, and hs no protective abilities, Hellkite.... so removable if he comes out first, Inky, Progentius and Sphinx all don't have haste so they speed up the clock by only one turn, which doesn't seem worth it to me. I wish there was something that does what painter does but would not be a horrible maindeck choice, but there isn't. Is there some bizzare creature out there that isn;t usually used that might be good here? I don't know. I'm not a big fan of running only one creature (this would be the first time I've done it), but Iona backed up by this much control eliminates many of the usual concerns about running only one creature.

[MirariKnight]

I think even something like Tyrant or Hellkite is worth it. Running Hellkite as the 2nd guy save space in the board and you have a better g1 against Stax. Tyrant has minor synergy with Iona (bouncing stuff they can't cast/land instead of storming out). Sphinx/Inkwell allow Tinker as the backup plan, and even Empyrial Archangel, Progenitus, Platinum Angel or Akroma would be better than nothing. Akroma has minor synergy with Iona (pro black) but obviously doesn't seem worthwhile. I'd just hate to have Oath active and not use it the 2nd time, that seems like a bad idea to me. Keep in mind that Oath has been viable using these creatures instead of Iona for years; it's not like it's a bad thing to get one of these other guys out.

[Stormanimagus]

Agreed on basically all points. I think creature number 2 is crucial and, for now, I'd say that perhaps platinum angel is the best choice. Living wish, while good in theory, is often going to just be too slow to make any sort of difference. 1G + 2 might be really hard to acheive in 1 turn, especially under Null Rod. Hence, I'd add tinker + platinum to the md and 1 other card in place of wishes. Platinum is great because, if you hit it first it'll most likely bait out whatever bounce/ removal the opponent has, leaving the coast clear for Iona to clean up and if the reverse comes out first you'll probably get there with 2 solid beaters/lines of defense.

The only other way I'd conifer running the painter combo would be to put it in the md and run 3 lim-dul's vault and/or some number of worldly tutors but both those card choices seem a bit janky.

Peace,

-Storm

[Killane]

I think even something like Tyrant or Hellkite is worth it. Running Hellkite as the 2nd guy save space in the board and you have a better g1 against Stax. Tyrant has minor synergy with Iona (bouncing stuff they can't cast/land instead of storming out). Sphinx/Inkwell allow Tinker as the backup plan, and even Empyrial Archangel, Progenitus, Platinum Angel or Akroma would be better than nothing. Akroma has minor synergy with Iona (pro black) but obviously doesn't seem worthwhile. I'd just hate to have Oath active and not use it the 2nd time, that seems like a bad idea to me. Keep in mind that Oath has been viable using these creatures instead of Iona for years; it's not like it's a bad thing to get one of these other guys out.

I don't know that Empy, Prog, Platz or Akroma would be better than nothing. The main issue I've always had with Oath, even though it is my deck of choice, is that even the brutally fast clock of Double Dragon still passes the turn. Platz would be nice if there weren't literally dozens of ways to remove it, especially in the current meta with lots of Artifact hate. Empyrial does nothing against Tendrils kills or Time Vault, Akroma, Inky and Progenitus are too slow to make a real difference, and Sphinx has the issues of Platz and Akroma combined. While Oath has been viable, it hasn't been a great choice for quite some time now. Iona solves quite a few issues Oath has had, as while it still passes the turn it passes them a turn that they cannot do much with. Tyrant makes the most sense to me of anything that you've suggested, but I'm not sure what the innate issue of having only 1 dude maindeck is, with Iona being so brutally difficult to remove and so disruptive to the rest of their game, and if she cant get there by herself, painter turns the rest of the game into a virtual Goldfish, and not along one at that given that Iona still does beat for 7 per turn.

I guess what I'm really asking is this: despite traditional thinking, with Iona's unique ability to shut out answers (pick blue and they can't even Stifle the Blessing trigger and deck you) and be arguably harder to remove than even Progenitus (if you get a correct read on the opposing deck), what is the actual concern you have with 1 maindeck dude?

The only other line of thought I had was replacing the Living Wish plan with Key/Vault/Tinker maindeck, however that has negitive synergy with the Null Rods which are one of the main reasons I think Oath can shine right now.

[MirariKnight]

My thought is that you can Oath the 2nd time so you might as well. I know none of the other options are particularly good, but they aren't bad either. All of them force the opponent to answer them, which is either impossible to do with Iona out, or will use up the answer they had for the Iona that is coming next turn.
If you don't like passing the turn I'd suggest Tidespout, as he shares a similar purpose with Iona: devaluing the turns you do have to give your opponents.

[Killane]

My thought is that you can Oath the 2nd time so you might as well. I know none of the other options are particularly good...

This is my issue - why Oath the second time if none of the other options are particularly good? Why not go "all-in" on the best option? Might as well just doesn't seem like a good enough reason to me.

That said I do agree with the choice of Tyrant or Storm's point regarding Platz, which forces an answer, but I'm still nto convinced that Iona doesn't negate the need for a second dude in the main.

Can anyone point out an actual arguement as to why the second dude is needed, apart from past precident which I have addressed above? I agree that it "feels" wrong, but I cannot find any reason (apart from Extract, which isn't played, can be countered, and can be adjusted to in game two if someone is randomly running it) that traditionally applied that Iona does not address.

[MirariKnight]

The reason is that it makes you incredibly vulnerable. Iona herself is a 4 turn clock. It's nice that Iona is 7/7, but I think giving 4 turns is too much. I don't think you can rely on her to kill alone. If she does get removed, you're totally dead in the water. Hellkite reduces her clock and also wins on his own if you get him first. I think he's the best option although Tidespout seems good too.

[Killane]

I can see I'm odd man out with this line of reasoning. What would you put into the Wish slots? I'm going to test both ways. My thought is - 3 living wish, + 1 Hellkite, + 1 duress, + 1 wipe away. Then we have 4 open slots in the side (Hellkite, Jailer, Sower, Painter). I'm thinking the third mindbreak trap, a balance, and right now my daughter is bugging me, so I'm drawing a blank on the last two slots. I'll drop the wish arguement for not, but I'm still going to test it when Zen comes out and I'll let everyone know how it goes.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Jailer, Sower, Painter

Without commenting on the quality of the Wish plan on the whole, Gilded Drake seems almost strictly superior to Sower since it costs 2, doesn't change your opponent's creature count, and doesn't have to stay in play.

Other suggestions: 1G for a Waste effect is useful, 1G to tutor out Tabernacle, Maze of Ith, or LoA might be useful.  Mishra's Factory and Tolarian Academy are interesting, but marginal.