Oath of Druids Post-Zendikar

[vroman]

re: duress to gain info for choosing Iona color
so if you duress T1, cast oath T2, get Iona T3, and mill library T4, they will have 3 new cards since then, plus any draw they cast of their own. if you are worried about playing into rav trap, this is not much safety. if you duress same turn as cast oath, thats only a little better. if you duress w Iona in play, they are more likely to have 1 yard hate and 2 counters, than 2 yard hate and 1 counter, so your duress takes care of the black card, and you should still name blue blind that upkeep. so running duress doesnt help you in any particularly synergistic way, and you'd name blue in every case w drain or duress, so long as you are aware of the anti-extirpate line of play, if thats an issue.

cephalid coliseum to dump oath creatures makes more sense when running gaeas blessing, which is incompatible w this combo. here, you are losing a land, to just effectively cycle Iona.

w two regrow effects I am very happy to have m-tutor.

[healo]

Im about to test this deck, its without power, but seems good to me, check it out:

Kill [7]
4 Oath of Druids
2 Hellkite Overlord
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath

or

4 Oath of Druids
2 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Gaea’s Blessing

Tutor / Draw [12]
4 Impulse
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Lat Nam’s Legacy
2 Life from the Loam

Disruption [17]
4 Force of Will
4 Negate / Spell Snare
2 Duress
3 Thoughtseize
1 Hurkyl’s Recall / Rebuild
3 Null Rod (?)

Mana Base [24]
4 Forbidden Orchard
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
3 Island
1 Forest
1 Strip Mine
2 Wasteland
1 Lotus Petal
4 Mox Diamond

I will post here some results after testing. Sideboard is not completed, so I wont post it here right now..

[BC]

Has anyone ever considered running Seize the Day with Hellkite Overlord in Oath?  If you have access to   , you could do 18 damage the turn Overlord enters the battlefield.  That's enough to end most games on the spot.  Personally I still prefer Iona, but it's worth a look.

EDIT: After a short search: yes, people have tried that.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

mystical is a card I never really liked much in oath but with out tfk or gush, oath really has problems drawing cards

There's always the option of, you know, running a draw spell  

Kinda' like the deep anal I was talking about running in that slot in my post   way to read that one all the way through.

[MirariKnight]

Has anyone ever considered running Seize the Day with Hellkite Overlord in Oath?  If you have access to   , you could do 18 damage the turn Overlord enters the battlefield.  That's enough to end most games on the spot.  Personally I still prefer Iona, but it's worth a look.

EDIT: After a short search: yes, people have tried that.

If you really must win with one swing of the Hellkite, try using Rafiq as your second dude (also easily hardcastable) so you auto win by pumping the dragon once (note I'm not advocating this, but I did try it and it semi-works).

Deep Anal is really good in Oath in my experience, I usually run at least 1. Probably the best answer to the drawing problem that we have at the moment.

[Suicideking]

@Vroman:  I really like your list.  I played it at a weekly vintage event this weekend and the only thing i didnt like was the lack of a second win condition.  But thats probably just because I lost a game to the abyss.  Anyways its real strong good job.

[Valorale]

re: duress to gain info for choosing Iona color
so if you duress T1, cast oath T2, get Iona T3, and mill library T4, they will have 3 new cards since then, plus any draw they cast of their own. if you are worried about playing into rav trap, this is not much safety. if you duress same turn as cast oath, thats only a little better. if you duress w Iona in play, they are more likely to have 1 yard hate and 2 counters, than 2 yard hate and 1 counter, so your duress takes care of the black card, and you should still name blue blind that upkeep. so running duress doesnt help you in any particularly synergistic way, and you'd name blue in every case w drain or duress, so long as you are aware of the anti-extirpate line of play, if thats an issue.

To me it looks like a tossup between using 4 Duress vs 4 Mana Drain. The entire game boils down to getting oath out and having it resolve. Once Iona is out you can name blue and can pretty much play Krosan / Yawg with impunity. So your concerns are either they try to counter or destroy oath once it hits the table or they try to get rid of Iona to use their blue counters. A turn 1 Duress is either going to be forced or youre going to knock out your biggest threat to putting out the combo, both are highly desirable outcomes.
In contrast if you want to use Mana Drain you now need to hold 2 mana in addition to the mana you need to cast oath since you need to be able to play them both on the same turn, whereas Duress could be played a turn earlier, or on the same turn for 1 mana less than a drain to achieve the same result; protecting your Oath. The only upside I can see to manadrain (besides that you can pitch is to FoW) is if you drain something on your opponents turn it gives you a bit of mana to play Oath the next turn. Cant really see anything else to Drain into, am I missing something?

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

There's always idk, stoping your opponant from top decking yawg's will, key/vault and making your lose the game. I've never seen duress stop that.

[staticfirex]

Misty Rainforest is going to help a lot with the mana base.

[Valorale]

There's always idk, stoping your opponant from top decking yawg's will, key/vault and making your lose the game. I've never seen duress stop that.

So your argument is that the correct play is to wait additional turns to setup the mana so you can cast Oath with a mana drain counter backup whereby giving your opponent extra turns to assemble their own combo and draw additional cards which could shut you down ... because Duress cant address a hot topdeck?

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

You realize you have games were your not immediately the aggressor on occasion, right?  I’m sure in your head or goldfishing against no one, it works out like that, but it’s not always the case. You could always play negate if drain doesn’t suit you.
Being able to play a controll role when you have to isn't a bad thing.

[Stormanimagus]

You realize you have games were your not immediately the aggressor on occasion, right?  I’m sure in your head or goldfishing against no one, it works out like that, but it’s not always the case. You could always play negate if drain doesn’t suit you.
Being able to play a controll role when you have to isn't a bad thing.

Yeah, and you need to understand that 4 Duress for 4 Counters brings your blue count dangerously low for supporting FoW. That is a big consideration.

[AmbivalentDuck]

In Duress's favor, unexpected Extirpate does *nasty* things to this deck.  If people start maindecking them to combat this deck (and they likely should!) knowing about it is clutch.

[Scyther]

not saying its the perfect way, but i always liked the mix between duress and counters. i can see th problem in playing 1st turn duress and then setting up drain, but still u have the best of both worlds.

[Valorale]

Believe me Storm .. that problem is the first thing that crossed my mind, as i said in my previous post "The only upside I can see to manadrain (besides that you can pitch is to FoW)........"

I have played numerous games with Oath .. and my play style has evolved and is now dictated by what my opponent plays. If they are playing storm or vault/key, I find myself playing more conservatively. If they are playing beat, staxx etc I play more aggressively. In my experience though I have rarely ever been upset to see a Duress/Thoughtsieze on my top deck especially when I was trying to setup a combo and never ever upset to see it in my opening hand. Even with the loss of additional blue I think Duress/Thoughtseize is a stronger card than negate or Mana drain, will do testing with both though.

[Scyther]

I'm very curious you guys overruled (hope its the right english term..) Spell Pierce by now. Its an amazing card. Early Game its like a blue Duress and one can play in one turn oath and counter much earlier than with drain..

[Stormanimagus]

I'm very curious you guys overruled (hope its the right english term..) Spell Pierce by now. Its an amazing card. Early Game its like a blue Duress and one can play in one turn oath and counter much earlier than with drain..

The proper term would be overlooked and the answer is NO I havn't done so. My current list runs 4 Spell Pierce and I do think it is optimal. For your reference:

Iona Oath

Land (15):
4 Forbidden Orchard
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Tolarian Academy

Artifacts (12):
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
5 Moxen
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Voltaic Key
1 Time Vault

Enchantments (4)
4 Oath Of Druids

Creatures (1):
1 Iona, Shield Of Emera

Instants (21):
4 Force Of Will
4 Spell Pierce
4 Mana Drain
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Reclamation
1 Chain Of Vapor
1 Rebuild
1 Fire // Ice

Sorceries (7):
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Timetwister
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Time Walk
1 Ponder
1 Regrowth

SB
2 Hellkite Overlord (Shops)
1 Karrthus, Tyrant Of Jund (Shops)
4 Leyline Of The Void (Ichorid)
2 Pithing Needle (Crypt/Relic/Bazaar)
2 Extirpate
4 Pernicious Deed

[RecklessEmbermage]

I'm very curious you guys overruled (hope its the right english term..) Spell Pierce by now. Its an amazing card. Early Game its like a blue Duress and one can play in one turn oath and counter much earlier than with drain..

If you look at the last few lists in this deck, they include spell pierce.

I opened the discussion of duress vs mana drain (not spell pierce) in Vroman's list, because it seems fairly clear that spell pierce deserves its 4 spots in the deck.

[Valorale]

As Storm said .. spell pierce is not being overlooked, I am currently running 3 of them in my deck with 1 mindbreak, but I am very close to swapping it with another spell pierce.

[Scyther]

oh boy, totally missed the pierces in vromans list.. ^^' it was too weired to be true.

i guess though that i meant not overlooked but passed by or something like that.
anyway i learned something - magic and language wise. hehe ^^

CoV in Oath is still not convincing.. or does the opp cant use it if an iona on blue is in play?

[Stormanimagus]

oh boy, totally missed the pierces in vromans list.. ^^' it was too weired to be true.

i guess though that i meant not overlooked but passed by or something like that.
anyway i learned something - magic and language wise. hehe ^^

CoV in Oath is still not convincing.. or does the opp cant use it if an iona on blue is in play?

Well that is one thing. OR most likely you'd be using it on Chalice @2 before you even try to resolve Oath so THAT you can resolve Oath in the first place . That was more what I had in mind.

[vroman]

I discovered another slight advantage of this deck. if you cant win bc they Extract/plowshare your Iona, or they have 8+ toughness flying blocker (basically marit lage) and you have no bounce vs non artifact creatures main, then if you can assemble time+volt, w twister+regrowth in your library. once you demonstrate you have an infinite loop where they never get another turn, the game is officially a draw. so this deck has the same out as worldgorger, where if they answer your wincon, you can force a draw relatively easily and try again next game. this makes reclaim important so you can cast twister on non-yawgwill turn and recur it indefinitely.

I played in 8man tourney tonight. Im switching to 1 usea 3 trop split. I had to stall a game w Iona in play but cut off from G by waste, whilst 2 u-seas sitting there. esp w reclaim in the mix, green is critical. possibly even go 4x misty rainforest and play basic forest.

[LotusHead]

I discovered another slight advantage of this deck....... then if you can assemble time+volt, w twister+regrowth in your library. once you demonstrate you have an infinite loop where they never get another turn, the game is officially a draw. so this deck has the same out as worldgorger, where if they answer your wincon, you can force a draw relatively easily and try again next game. this makes reclaim important so you can cast twister on non-yawgwill turn and recur it indefinitely.

I do not think this is the case.

THE WGD out is because a loop happens that neither player can stop (ie, no other creatures in graveyard but WGD.
If you demonstrate a loop with TimeTwister/Regrowth/Time Vault/Reclaim, etc, you can't say "I do this forever, game is draw".  It's "I pick an arbitrarily large number of times to do this", then pass priority. When you get priority back, you have to do something different.

Unless something recent changed in rules.

[vroman]

I confirmed w Lee sharpe, who is wizards employee/level 27 judge that indeed it is a draw if you can demonstrate that you can neither win nor lose in this way.

[Scyther]

this is funny and usefull as well. =)

[Phele]

What about adding another noncreature kill route maindeck – like Tezz or Cunning Wish-Brain Freeze? A win is better than a draw   Wish could solve the non bounce for big flying dudes issue as well, but I know that is quite clunky. Tezz on the other side doesn't seem to be too overcosted as you play the whole acceleration package and it gives you a good alternative way to go, if the Oath route is hindered (Extirpate, Meddling Mage ...). And your counter aresenal to defend Tezz one round is quite good. Great list btw!!

[scifiantihero]

I can't find anywhere in the rules/ DCI floor rules/ infraction guide that says a game is declared a draw because a player could hypothetically (for instance they don't forget to activate Time Vault) not lose, but their deck is seemingly incapable of winning.

Now, I imagine that refusing to take actions that would win the game in, say, game one until thirty seconds to the end of the match would be considered stalling, even though they don't give an example like that.

So what happens when it's game two, a player is up a game (the only circumstance in which I see this mattering), and finds himself in a situation where many sets of choices lead to playing as normal--even if it means taking repeated turns with a Time Vault-- with no win conditions left in the deck?  (I've certainly run into this in play-testing, where Tez and Inkwell had to be pitched to Forces or else I'd lose!)  Obviously that person has no problem with gold fishing for half an hour, and obviously the opponent wants game three/ four.

I find this issue weird, if only because I can't remember considering it!

Either way, this raises a question about what might be a (rare?) weakness of the very awesome single-Iona list proposed here:  Is something like the Fire // Ice in Storm's list an auto-include?

Tez is an interesting idea too!

[Scyther]

you guys see another way to get enough extra turns for winning with iona? not that i dont like it but i dont own time vault and i doubt that we will see vault as it is now for forever... ^^'

so u have any ideas for a short time walk recursion or something like that? would be really nice for me. =)

[mr.grim]

I just wanted to drop a oath list that I have been doin very well with.

Rebel oath...
4 oath of druids

2hellkite over lord
1 akroma

4 fow
1 misdirection
3 duress
2 thoughtseize
1 hurks
1 wipe away
3 NULL ROD
1 pithing needle

ancestral recall
brain storm
ponder
4 impulse

dt
vamp
l.d.v
mystical
merchant scroll
regrowth
time walk
g.blessing

lotus
lotus petal
jet
sapph
emerald

4 orchard
2misty rainforest
1 verdant catacomb
1 delta
1 island
1 swamp
2trop
2under ground
2wasteland
1strip

The duress effects with the rods ,needle,and strip effects really shut the opp. down. Impulse as we all know is a fantastic dig for orchard or oath,tho I always seem to pitch one to force per game. I have been thinking about cutting a impluse for a second ldv, but im still unsure about it. let me know what ya all think thanks!!!!    
Grim.

[vroman]

Im trying duress, bc its awkward to protect oath w drain. unlike tez which can sit on mana and counter things indefinitely until they are ready to win, oath actually has to cast something proactively, and the earlier the better, so 1vs2c protection spell makes big difference.