Oath of Druids Post-Zendikar

[Red Irish]

@ Gandalf and those sharing his oppinion: Of course I could be wrong, but I'm not convinced yet. Like Red Irish said "we'll have to agree to disagree" for now, as I don't think this issue can be resolved via discourse.

In any case it would be a shame if oath was restricted, as it would just kill another archetype.

This seems highly unlikely to me, at least for a long time... many more people would have to pick up Oath and start winning with it.

As far as I know, Oath of Druids has won two tournaments with more than 33 players this entire YEAR (the April Blue Bell and the NYSE III), excluding Tezz decks with an Oath SB.  Admittedly Iona Oath may change things, but has anyone besides me won a tournament with more than 33 players with Oath post-Zendikar?

http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1151

[neocronx]

Did you really just reply to him posting his own tournament result...

[voltron00x]

I have a couple of question regarding the sideboard. I play Vromans exact build as it looks the nut high and besides maybe the Faerie Conclave there really isn't anything that appears to need tweaks.
My sideboard (largely untested due to time constraints) is this:
2 Trapmakers Snare
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Pithing Needle
3 Oxidize
3 Hellkite Overlord
1 Wasteland
2 open slots, perhaps something against Aven Mindcensor?!

As you can see, there is lots of Ichorid hate. Trapmakers Snare to find Ravenous Trap, Pithing Needle, Wasteland and Tormods Crypt make it hard for my Ichorid. Keeping the hate varied makes it very hard for them to attack from a specific angle.

etc

Aven Mindcensor isn't really a big concern for Oath, you should be more worried about the other cards in the decks that would play it, such as Qasali Pridemage.  Similarly cards like Meddling Mage and Trygon Predator are very good against Oath, so some type of board sweeper or spot removal is good (remembering that REBs also kill those two specific creatures).  Massacre is one common choice that kills Pridemage and Meddling Mage, but it doesn't kill Trygons and can't be cast if your opponent sticks Gaddock Teeg (which is usually found in G/W beats or Meandeck Beats).

The best cards in an Oath mirror are Krosan Grip, Strip Mine, Wasteland, and cards that find or recur Strip Mine, Wasteland, and Orchard (such as Loam or Crucible, and tutors like Vamp, Demonic, LDV, and Crop Rot).  Similarly against Time Vault versions of Oath, cards like Ancient Grudge are pretty good.  I've also found REBs and Spell Pierces should be used to counter cards that dig, like LDV, Impulse, Brainstorm, and Ponder to keep your opponent from getting ahead on Orchards or from assembling Key/Vault.  Against Vroman Oath, I've been bringing in 1-2 pieces of graveyard hate, typically a Tormod's Crypt and possibly 1 Ravenous Trap.  I'm also adjusting my anti-Fish removal spells to include something that can kill Iona in the mirror as well as Sphinx.  Probably something lame like Death Mark, b/c although it seems bad, for one mana it kills:  Sphinx, Iona, Pridemage, Meddling Mage, Tarmogoyf, and Trygon Predator. 

Also, just curious - where are you located?  I'd love to play some cash matches with Ichorid against your proposed 75.  I feel like I could make a killing with Ichorid against some people in this forum 

[voltron00x]

@ Gandalf and those sharing his oppinion: Of course I could be wrong, but I'm not convinced yet. Like Red Irish said "we'll have to agree to disagree" for now, as I don't think this issue can be resolved via discourse.

In any case it would be a shame if oath was restricted, as it would just kill another archetype.

This seems highly unlikely to me, at least for a long time... many more people would have to pick up Oath and start winning with it.

As far as I know, Oath of Druids has won two tournaments with more than 33 players this entire YEAR (the April Blue Bell and the NYSE III), excluding Tezz decks with an Oath SB.  Admittedly Iona Oath may change things, but has anyone besides me won a tournament with more than 33 players with Oath post-Zendikar?

http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1151

I almost forgot winning that a few weeks back, thanks!

 

[Red Irish]

@ Gandalf and those sharing his oppinion: Of course I could be wrong, but I'm not convinced yet. Like Red Irish said "we'll have to agree to disagree" for now, as I don't think this issue can be resolved via discourse.

In any case it would be a shame if oath was restricted, as it would just kill another archetype.

This seems highly unlikely to me, at least for a long time... many more people would have to pick up Oath and start winning with it.

As far as I know, Oath of Druids has won two tournaments with more than 33 players this entire YEAR (the April Blue Bell and the NYSE III), excluding Tezz decks with an Oath SB.  Admittedly Iona Oath may change things, but has anyone besides me won a tournament with more than 33 players with Oath post-Zendikar?

http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1151

I almost forgot winning that a few weeks back, thanks!

 

Belated congratulations! Seriously, sorry about that, I had no idea it was you.

In any event, I think we'll see more and more Iona Oath in upcoming T8's. Indeed, I'm a little concerned that Vintage will become a two-horse race between Tezzeret and Iona Oath decks.

[Red Irish]

Did you really just reply to him posting his own tournament result...

Yes, it seems I really did.

[Mantis]

Thanks for your time.

I am not quite sure what you mean by the last comment, are you trying to tell me I have a bad matchup against Ichorid? If so, please enlighten me with what you think should be changed. I am fully aware that Trapmakers Snare is controversial and we had quite a bit of discussion over it on our team boards. I will cut them for the tournament on sunday and try them out later because of all the negative feedback I received.

I understand the importance of the Orchard battle in the mirror, hence the Wasteland. I will include 1 Ancient Grudge and 1 Krosan Grip by removing 2 Oxidizes. Furthermore I will include a Trinisphere over the Mindbreak Trap and 2 Deathmark (I was thinking about this too) to fill out the open slots. Lastly I will remove the 2 Snaremakers Traps for 2 anti Ichorid cards (ie Ravenous Trap or Tormods Crypt.

Also, I'd love to hear some opinions on the sideboard by other Oath adepts as I am new to this archetype and my only experience is from the other side of the table.

[voltron00x]

@ Gandalf and those sharing his oppinion: Of course I could be wrong, but I'm not convinced yet. Like Red Irish said "we'll have to agree to disagree" for now, as I don't think this issue can be resolved via discourse.

In any case it would be a shame if oath was restricted, as it would just kill another archetype.

This seems highly unlikely to me, at least for a long time... many more people would have to pick up Oath and start winning with it.

As far as I know, Oath of Druids has won two tournaments with more than 33 players this entire YEAR (the April Blue Bell and the NYSE III), excluding Tezz decks with an Oath SB.  Admittedly Iona Oath may change things, but has anyone besides me won a tournament with more than 33 players with Oath post-Zendikar?

http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1151

I almost forgot winning that a few weeks back, thanks!

 

Belated congratulations! Seriously, sorry about that, I had no idea it was you.

In any event, I think we'll see more and more Iona Oath in upcoming T8's. Indeed, I'm a little concerned that Vintage will become a two-horse race between Tezzeret and Iona Oath decks.

its all good  

The problem with this idea of Oath being top-tier is that unlike Tezz, its much easier to hate on Oath because its a linear or "big spell" strategy.  If the field adjusts and starts packing stuff like Krosan Grip, Diabolic Edict, or miser's MD Tormod's, life becomes much harder for Iona Oath in particular.

It isnt unlike last spring when i started doing well with oath, and suddenly people local to me were running Greater Gargadon and Curfew in the SB; I tried to stay ahead by siding Needles and adding Tinker + Big Man and playing additional hand disruption, while people who copied the list from previous events lost to the adjustment in the meta.  The same thing is likely to happen here, which is why I prefer my build.  Its far less "all-in" and stronger against Shops and Null Rod (as well as stuff like Edicts).

[voltron00x]

Thanks for your time.

I am not quite sure what you mean by the last comment, are you trying to tell me I have a bad matchup against Ichorid? If so, please enlighten me with what you think should be changed. I am fully aware that Trapmakers Snare is controversial and we had quite a bit of discussion over it on our team boards. I will cut them for the tournament on sunday and try them out later because of all the negative feedback I received.

I understand the importance of the Orchard battle in the mirror, hence the Wasteland. I will include 1 Ancient Grudge and 1 Krosan Grip by removing 2 Oxidizes. Furthermore I will include a Trinisphere over the Mindbreak Trap and 2 Deathmark (I was thinking about this too) to fill out the open slots. Lastly I will remove the 2 Snaremakers Traps for 2 anti Ichorid cards (ie Ravenous Trap or Tormods Crypt.

Also, I'd love to hear some opinions on the sideboard by other Oath adepts as I am new to this archetype and my only experience is from the other side of the table.

Oxidize is Oath's best option against Chalice on 2, so you may need more if you're expecting a lot of Workshops.  I have run up to 3 in the past; Grip has the added benefit of being very good for mirror matches and decent against Time Vault in general, but I would recommend Oxidize if/when you're worried about Shops.

It might help to share my current Ichorid list:

4 Bridge from Below
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Serum Powder
4 City of Brass
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Ichorid
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Narcomoeba
4 Unmask
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Dread Return
3 Fatestitcher
3 Golgari Thug
3 Gemstone Mine
2 Sadistic Hypnotist
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Black Lotus

Sideboard:
3 Darkblast
1 Gemstone Mine
2 Ingot Chewer
3 Emerald Charm
2 Pithing Needle
4 Chain of Vapor

Unmask pretty much never gets sided out anymore (my pre-Trap build ran 3 and usually sided them all out in game 2), although I may cut 1-2 on the draw depending on the opponent.  This list is very capable of bringing back Hypnotist on T2 and "winning" and sometimes can legitimately win on T2 (T1 is possible but unlikely and requires Lotus and very good dredging and access to multiple Fatestitchers).

Do you understand why this deck's matchup is so good against Oath?  I'm automatically bringing in 3 cards that destroy Oath, PLUS i have Unmask, PLUS I have Chain of Vapor, AND I'm a faster deck that runs Chalice to disrupt your Yawg Will plan. 

It isn't so much that the Oath matchup is bad (compared to other decks, on the avg), but you need to bring in 6 or 7 dedicated anti-ichorid cards in my experience, if you really want to call the match-up "even" after sideboard... and even then, "even" isn't where you want to be, because you're probably losing G1 unless you pull a busted T1/T2 Time Vault hand or Ichorid mulls into oblivion.

[Gekoratel]

How do I board in the mirror? I have no experience with this matchup and can imagine you take out a number of Oaths. Wasteland looks like a nice way to win the Orchard battle. I also have no idea what you would board in, Hellkite Overlords?

If your looking for a dedicated slot for the mirror I believe that Life from the Loam is the best bet, it ensures that you'll win Orchard/Waste wars.  This card was insane when Oath wasn't running Vault/Key but I'd imagine even with your opponent having that option this card would still be very strong.  You honestly don't have many cards in your board that are good in the mirror.  In Matt's recent SGC article he boarded as follows.
Out: -1 Iona, -1 Thirst for Knowledge, -1 Oath of Druids, -1 Thoughtseize
In: +1 Krosan Grip, +1 Karrthus, +1 Red Elemental Blast , +1 Ancient Grudge

How should I board against Tezzeret?

Your sideboard is also very soft against Tezzeret, I can only see Oxidize coming in and its not exciting.  Once again here's how Matt boarded.  You should probably check out his article if your looking for a solid SB and sideboarding strategies, but your lists are different I suppose.
Out: -1 Hellkite Overlord, -1 Thirst for Knowledge, -1 Merchant Scroll, -1 Spell Pierce
In: +2 Red Elemental Blast, +1 Krosan Grip, +1 Ancient Grudge

[Red Irish]

For the record, here's my friend's Oath, without the Vault combo, that I was referring to in this thread:

http://www.elsantuario.es/foro/index.php/topic,5429.0.html

There is a mistake in the list, as Empyrial Archangel somehow became engineered explosives when they posted the T8. This build finished 1st and 4th in a 34 player tournament.

[Scyther]

Gotta love the english and spanish mixed card names... xD

(doesnt make any sense at all)

[Red Irish]

Gotta love the english and spanish mixed card names... xD

(doesnt make any sense at all)

Here's the list fully translated into English:

Iona Oath (Santiago build)

1 Lat- Nam´s Legacy
1 Brainstorm
1 Merchant scroll
1 Regrowth
3 Spell pierce
4 Forbidden Orchard
1 Cunning Wish
4 FOW
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Island
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Oath of Druids
1 Mox Ruby
1 Time walk
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Ponder
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mox sapphire
1 Black Lotus
1 Mystical tutor
1 Rebuild
1 Sensei's Diving Top
2 Misdirecction
1 Krosan reclamation
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Mindbreak trap
1 Demonic tutor
1 Mox jet
1 Wasteland
1 Gifts ungiven
1 Vampiric tutor
1 Iona
1 Flash of Insight
2 Tropical island
2 Volcanic island
1 Forest
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Strip Mine
2 Polluted delta
1 Underground sea

Sideboard
4 Leyline of the void
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Krosan Grip
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ravenous trap
1 Tinker
1 Empyrial Archangel
3 Red elemental Blast

[Scyther]

I have a question:

U 100% Oath iona in play and then.... doing what? waiting 4 turns?

[Red Irish]

You combo via Yawgmoth's Will the next time you activate Oath (i.e. the following turn), assuming you have 4 mana available (Krosan Reclamation; Flash of Insight; Lotus; Yawgmoth).

[Scyther]

oh boy... didn't see the tendrils in the list... right..

[vroman]

in regards to yard hate vs combo oath, tormods is useless, bc they see it coming and can just not combo, and still win riding Iona. Rav trap is much better, bc you can steal a game if they go for combo and dont have hard-counter back up. the possibility of rav-trap keeps them honest.

[miguelmatix]

And what about faerie macabre?

[AmbivalentDuck]

And what about faerie macabre?

You realize we are discussing Ichorid hate in the context of an Oath of Druids deck, don't you?

I thought we were also discussing the impact of Ichy hate on Oath

Ie.

in regards to yard hate vs combo oath, tormods is useless, bc they see it coming and can just not combo, and still win riding Iona. Rav trap is much better, bc you can steal a game if they go for combo and dont have hard-counter back up. the possibility of rav-trap keeps them honest.

Faerie Macabre is arguably better than Ravenous Trap vs Iona Oath since neither naming black nor countermagic affect its ability to steal games from the Oath player.

[vroman]

Faerie Macabre is arguably better than Ravenous Trap vs Iona Oath since neither naming black nor countermagic affect its ability to steal games from the Oath player.

Agreed. Though Macabre is probably the weakest vs Dredge, which I think makes it unviable.

[CHOZO]

Would it be a really bad idea to include both the time vault/voltaic key combo and null rods in this deck? I mean, if you run three null rods, what are the odds of it being in your way when it came time to combo out?

[greggg230]

Would it be a really bad idea to include both the time vault/voltaic key combo and null rods in this deck? I mean, if you run three null rods, what are the odds of it being in your way when it came time to combo out?

This deck is as dependent upon the activated abilities of artifacts as any other deck.  They don't run null rod for the same reason Drain decks don't run Null Rod.  You need 4 mana to combo out.  If you have Null Rod out, that means you have to have four lands.

In other words - yes, it would be a really bad idea.

[median]

I know painter + grindstone has already been discussed, but was wondering about the interaction painter would have with flash of insight. Painter basically makes it a   instant demonic tutor after Oathing. Would that warrant testing a painter version of Vroman Oath? You could potentially win on the turn you Oath if you get Painter first. You also don't loose if Iona is killed exiled.

[greggg230]

Do you really want to oath into Painter's Servant?  You already pretty much win the turn you Oath anyway.

[AmbivalentDuck]

For 5U, you can win immediately with no protection, or for 2GU you can win a turn later with your opponent pretty much unable to respond.

Hint: it's the 6 mana that's prohibitive and makes it no faster.

[median]

yeah, i was thinking about that. it seemed neat though, and the question seemed worth asking. i still think oath is the way to go if your playing painter. and if you break it out over two oath activations you have a better game than painter has now (possibly dragon oath too), first activation painter in play and grindstone in hand, second activation iona out and grindstone resolves -> win.

[voltron00x]

http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1174

Trust me, this deck is very good; this was a 46-player event with 6 rounds and a T8 full of Ichorid.  If you've only tried the Vroman style, you should give this one a shot as well.  It also has a very good match-up against Ichorid post-SB.

1. Luis De Leon
"Oath ni Elias"
Maindeck (60 cards): Sideboard: (15 cards)
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Duress
3 Thoughtseize
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Impulse
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ponder
 2 Spell Pierce
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Time Walk
1 Wipe Away
2 Hellkite Overlord
4 Oath of Druids
1 Lim-Dul's Vault
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria



Lands (17):
3 Flooded Strand
4 Forbidden Orchard
2 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Wasteland
 
Sideboard:

1 Ancient Grudge
2 Arcane Laboratory
2 Firespout
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Oxidize
2 Ravenous Trap
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Tormod's Crypt
 

[voltron00x]

Much smaller event (10 players), but I like this one b/c the semis and finals matches were against Workshop decks:

http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1177

1. David Ho
Maindeck (60 cards): Sideboard: (15 cards)
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Duress
3 Thoughtseize
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Impulse
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mystical Tutor
 1 Ponder
1 Rebuild
2 Spell Pierce
1 Time Walk
2 Hellkite Overlord
4 Oath of Druids
1 Lim-Dul's Vault
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria


Lands (17):
3 Flooded Strand
4 Forbidden Orchard
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Strip Mine
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Wasteland

Sideboard:
1 Firespout
1 Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund
1 Krosan Grip
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Oxidize
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ravenous Trap
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Spell Pierce
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Wasteland

[Sporkcore]

This is the list I played today at N.Y.S.E. IV to a first place finish. 5 rounds (29? people). Played against Workshops once in swiss and once in finals (same person), Goblins in swiss and top 8 (same person), Tezz, and Oath in swiss and T4 (different people).

Maindeck:
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emperald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Saphire
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Rebuild
2 Spell Pierce
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
4 Impulse
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Lim-Dul's Vault
4 Force of Will
1 Krosan Reclamation
3 Thoughtseize
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Ponder
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Duress
1 Time Walk
4 Oath of Druids
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Volcanic Island
1 Strip Mine
1 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
4 Forbidden Orchard
2 Misty Rainforest

Sideboard:
1 Oxidize
1 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
1 Hellkite Overlord
1 Wasteland
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Extirpate
2 Firespout
2 Ravenous Trap
2 Tormod's Crypt

[voltron00x]

I'm counting 59 cards, did you miss 1 MD Hellkite Overlord?

Also very impressive record vs. the mirror and Shops...