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Author Topic: [FREE PREMIUM ARTICLE] Dissecting the Banned and Restricted List  (Read 4101 times)
Molten
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« on: September 16, 2009, 12:23:18 pm »

http://www.blackborder.com/q/node/3449 Dissecting the Banned and Restricted List

In part one of his epic and thought-provoking masterpiece, Patrick outdoes himself again! He analyzes which cards could be unbanned in Vintage and presents hypothetical decklists.


--> check it out!

http://www.blackborder.com/q/node/3449
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Doomsday
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« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2009, 12:34:53 pm »

Thanks a lot for the link.  Mana Vault looks dangerous to unrestrict though.
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Unrestrict: Burning Wish, Ponder, Flash, Gush
zeus-online
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« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2009, 12:56:27 pm »

Basicly only agree on burning wish at first glance...and even that might be risky, since it find's tinker (I think grim tutor might prove to be the better "Will Tutor" anyways)
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« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2009, 01:08:04 pm »

As TMD policy requires, this thread was moved to the Advanced Vintage Forum because it deals with subject matter that can't be discussed in Open.
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Yare
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« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2009, 04:04:47 pm »

In Vintage the proper term is "unrestrict" a restricted card, not "unban."

Additionally, I elaborated on "unfun" a while ago. The standard is not whimsical:

Quote
Even if both players have access to a very good strategy, one player gets to use that strategy first in Magic. Unfortunately, one of the drawbacks of turn-based games is sometimes the fact that there are turns; one player gets to go, then the other. While in chess this advantage is relatively trifling, in Magic (and especially in Vintage), the advantage provided by going first cannot be underestimated. Even though one gives up card advantage by going first, players unanimously say "play" when posed with the question "Play or draw?" This is ultimately where the game can break down and the necessity (and, I believe, the philosophy) of the B/R becomes apparent.

The first turn win is not something that is valued by the Vintage community. This is because the player on the draw essentially gets no opportunity to win, or even play! Such wins are often attributed to luck (either by the opening seven or the roll), but they can also potentially be attributed to skill if a player comes up with an ingenious and consistent enough deck. However, even if such a deck required an incredible amount of skill to pilot, the Vintage community would most likely still find it unacceptable if it could win on turn one consistently. Furthermore, even if a player isn't winning on turn one, the player who goes first gets additional mana, an additional set of main phases, and an additional combat phase. This initial advantage persists throughout the game. So, in one respect, the B/R is about getting to turns two through five and beyond, if possible. By getting to the later turns, skill, rather than luck, is often allowed to determine the winner of the match. It is probably worth noting here that "skill" incorporates both play skill and deckbuilding skill (in case someone tries to make the distinction).

Ultimately, what I'm trying to get to is the idea that the B/R is trying to achieve fairness for the players involved. But how do you define that? I would suggest that pushing the game more toward skill and away from luck is how that is defined in Magic. That's really the whole point of playing the game: to determine a winner by skill rather than luck. Otherwise, whenever you win a tournament, your numbers just happened to come up for the Mox Lottery that day. Where's the glory in that? I think the ideas of "objectively overpowered" and the infamous "unfun" associated with Trinisphere fall into this category, pretty much no matter how you slice it. The above paragraph is what I think Mr. Forsythe meant about Trinisphere rather than the one word explanation that has now become irreparably associated with the card. In the DCI's opinion, Trinisphere pushed the game too far toward the Mox Lottery. Now whether that is true or not is certainly a topic for discussion, and reasonable minds can differ. For the record, though, I personally am of the opinion that Trinisphere belongs on the Restricted List for this reason. It's about "unfair", not "unfun."

Edit: Is the author of the article able to post in this forum?
« Last Edit: September 16, 2009, 06:34:06 pm by Yare » Logged
Vegeta2711
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« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2009, 12:32:57 am »

Yes, let's unrestrict a colorless Dark Ritual when there's so many wonderful artifacts and Planeswalkers to cast while the best kill condition in Vintage costs 4 colorless mana.
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