[New Card Discussion] Sadistic Sacrament

[NodFreak]

Sadistic Sacrament
BBB
Sorcery - rare
Kicker 7
Search target player's library for up to three cards, exile them, then that player shuffles his or her library. If Sadistic Sacrament was kicked, instead search that player's library for up to fifteen cards, exile them, then that player shuffles his of her library.

I like it, but dont know if it will see play.

[reaperbong]

a Jester's Cap off a Dark Ritual? nice! it will see play, at least from me, i'll rock up to 4 in my Sui-black build. Kicker seems damn impossible to pull off though so not sure about the value in that.

[madlucas]

It could be a fake...
It seems too strong at first sight to me.
It would be good in TPS side vs Oath,Tezz and mirror match.

Vs Oath take 3 creatures, Vs Tezz take Time Vault Tezzeret and fatty, Vs TPS Tendrils and fatty.

Of course your opponent could have one winning condition in hand but it seems worthy to me.

[reaperbong]

if this isn't fake it will make Sui-black competitive.

[Grand Inquisitor]

if this isn't fake it will make Sui-black competitive.

Care to make it interesting? 



This would certainly force a shift of a few cards in time vault and ritual lists.  I doubt it will spawn new archetypes or bring back dead ones.

[MagicMan]

Having this misdirected against you would be kind of awful if you were a TPS player who sided this in against the mirror or some Tezz list lol

[nineisnoone]

if this isn't fake it will make Sui-black competitive.

Care to make it interesting? 

This would certainly force a shift of a few cards in time vault and ritual lists.  I doubt it will spawn new archetypes or bring back dead ones.

I wouldn't count Sui-Black as being dead though.  Not too long ago, I still saw the occasional Sui-Long-Black list (Ritual+Confidant+Tendrils). That said, Ritual+Sacrament steals 3 cards from their deck for a heavy card disadvantage.  If it were 2 for 2 so that you could Ritual+Duress+Sacrament, it would be stronger. 

That said, I'm pretty sure that Tezz or any relevant deck would FoW most of the time, so it definitely deserves some consideration.

[Stormanimagus]

if this isn't fake it will make Sui-black competitive.

Care to make it interesting? 

This would certainly force a shift of a few cards in time vault and ritual lists.  I doubt it will spawn new archetypes or bring back dead ones.

I wouldn't count Sui-Black as being dead though.  Not too long ago, I still saw the occasional Sui-Long-Black list (Ritual+Confidant+Tendrils). That said, Ritual+Sacrament steals 3 cards from their deck for a heavy card disadvantage.  If it were 2 for 2 so that you could Ritual+Duress+Sacrament, it would be stronger. 

That said, I'm pretty sure that Tezz or any relevant deck would FoW most of the time, so it definitely deserves some consideration.

What 3 Cards might you nab with this against Ichorid? Just curious cause it seems like it gives the deck a game 1 prayer against Ichorid.

-Storm

[AmbivalentDuck]

What 3 Cards might you nab with this against Ichorid? Just curious cause it seems like it gives the deck a game 1 prayer against Ichorid.

I typically grab Dread Return or Bridge with my Earwig Squads.  I have Jitte for individual zombies, but an army of them or a 20/20 grave troll is insurmountable.

[meadbert]

Having this misdirected against you would be kind of awful if you were a TPS player who sided this in against the mirror or some Tezz list lol

Having it Commandeered would suck.  MisD means you just choose 3 cards you do nott want anyway.

[smasher]

I'm going to compare this card to bitter ordeal since I recently put up a deck list. If sadistic sacrament is countered you get nothing. If they manage to force of will all copies of bitter ordeal then you just mind twisted their hand for 3 mana. Just fetching and casting bitter ordeal off dark rit lets you take time vault or yawg will even with 1 copy countered.

I think a turn 1 off dark ritual is your best time to resolve this without getting forced. Waiting a turn or 2 to duress then cast will allow card drawers into fow's and mana drain mana to hit the table.

I wouldn't build an earwig squad deck for the same reason.

Mindlock orb now has a purpose in stopping this card! lol

[Beralt]

I think this gives Suicide Black a much better game against Combo & Tez.  Duress & Thoughtseize sometimes only fuel Yawgmoth's Will.

[Frodo Fett]

Having it Commandeered would suck.  MisD means you just choose 3 cards you do nott want anyway.

up to three cards...

[M.Solymossy]

I'll be the first to say this card will have ZERO impact in vintage.

[pierce]

no. it'll have minor applications.

when I was playing TPS regularly at local events, this new card called ad nasueam was printed, and suddenly there was a faster combo deck that at least 3 people were bringing to every event. I started running cranial extraction in my sb, because it would strip out their only way to win (and thus win me the game) at a fraction of the cost of either bargain or desire, which I boarded out.

In a similar future scenario, this seems much easier for a dark ritual based deck to use. plus, it has a lot more versitility than something like cranial extraction.

it's not amazing, but a decent role player.

[Negator13]

This actually looks like a decent way for TPS to fight faster combo like Grim Long (if that even exists anymore), and perhaps things like Steel City Vault. I could definitely see boarding 2-3 of these in TPS if I anticipated a combo heavy metagame. Not sure if it'd be worth it against traditional Tezz, yeah it strips all their wins but I think as a TPS player you should be more focused on just comboing out before they do, as you should be about .5 turns faster than them anyway.

[meadbert]

Having it Commandeered would suck.  MisD means you just choose 3 cards you do not want anyway.

up to three cards...

Are you suggesting that there are cases were you will not want to thin your own deck by 3 cards?

[Stormanimagus]

I think this card is designed Perfectly and I whole-heartedly disagree with Soly that this will have not impact. It will force Tezz/TPS/Oath/SCV to play more Win Conditions than just the steam-lined 2-3 so as to avoid losing to 1 resolution of it and this will force those decks to waste SB slots on such a protection or even MD slots.

I honestly don't understand how people can NOT see the potential applications of this card. All I have to say is I'll be testing this heavily in Sui-Black decks as it seems like just the tool those decks need to prevent losing to a ridiculous Top-Deck while controlling the game and 'winning small.' The fact that it is the cost of a Ritual means it'll only be played in decks running Ritual and thus it won't be abusable by Mana Drain decks. Well done Wizards! Thank you for giving black a boost again! Now, to the deck-building. Thoughts on a good Sui Black List with this card? Would it even need/want to run Null Rod in tandem with this MD? This card + Null Rod seem pretty dead against Fish though and this is even somewhat dead against Ichorid. Thoughts on how to construct such a deck?

-Storm

[Dalamar]

Hi everyone,
    I have been reading these boards for years now and never really participated in any way, However Storm asked how to use this card in a deck, I have built a BG deck that I think Uses the card very well. I'm just throwing it out there for general consumption.

Thanks,

Sad Sac

Spells    Sadistic Sacrament   4 Dark Ritual   4 ThoughtSeize   4 hymn to Tourach   4 Vampiric Tutor   1 Demonic Tutor   1 Life from the loam   1 choke   2     Artifacts    Black Lotus   1 Mox Jet   1 Mox Emerald   1 Lotus Petal   1 Null Rod   3     Creatures   4 Dark Confidant   4 Tormagoyf   2 Gatekeeper of Malakir   2 tombstalkers        Land    Bayou   4 Urbog,  Tomb of Yawgmoth   1 Verdant Catacombs   4 Bloodstained Mire   3 Forest   1 Swamp   2 stripmine   1 wasteland   4     Sideboard    Gatekeeper of Malakir   2 Leyline of the Void   4 choke   2 duress   1 Krosan Grip   3 pernicious deed   3        75

[Stormanimagus]

Hi everyone,
    I have been reading these boards for years now and never really participated in any way, However Storm asked how to use this card in a deck, I have built a BG deck that I think Uses the card very well. I'm just throwing it out there for general consumption.

Thanks,

Sad Sac

Spells    Sadistic Sacrament   4 Dark Ritual   4 ThoughtSeize   4 hymn to Tourach   4 Vampiric Tutor   1 Demonic Tutor   1 Life from the loam   1 choke   2     Artifacts    Black Lotus   1 Mox Jet   1 Mox Emerald   1 Lotus Petal   1 Null Rod   3     Creatures   4 Dark Confidant   4 Tormagoyf   2 Gatekeeper of Malakir   2 tombstalkers        Land    Bayou   4 Urbog,  Tomb of Yawgmoth   1 Verdant Catacombs   4 Bloodstained Mire   3 Forest   1 Swamp   2 stripmine   1 wasteland   4     Sideboard    Gatekeeper of Malakir   2 Leyline of the Void   4 choke   2 duress   1 Krosan Grip   3 pernicious deed   3        75

Interesting List. Not sure I agree with Choke LftL or Tombstalker if you already run Tarmogoyf though. Here's my dilemma. I don't know if it is better to splash Green in Sui Black for Tarmogoyf or if it is better to have a rock-solid manabase and go the Sui-Tendrils route (perhaps splashing for U for Ancestral, BS, Ponder, Time Walk) with 2-4 copies of Tendrils and some number of Bitterblossom. I haven't seen Bitterblossom in action enough to know whether it's good or not. Does it NEED to go in a Sui list also running Cabal Therapy and/or Skullclamp to fully shine? Is it powerful enough on its own? If you run it with Confidant do you need some number of Tendrils to pull yourself out of killing yourself?

Creature Sui lists that don't run Tendrils do seem solid, but can Tendrils give you some game against Fish that you wouldn't otherwise have?

I think this new card really REALLY helps the Tezz match-up as now you have a piece of hate they really have to play around and not just "Turn 1 Duress you? --> Oops. Tutor for Yawg Win and Win!" Now they have to play around a card that negates their entire strategy at the cost of a measley Dark Rit in the early game.

The decks this deck will still have trouble with even after adding Sadistic Sacrament are:

1. Any Fish/Beats list
2. Goblins
3 Some Stax lists (although you should be able to nab most of, if not all, their win conditions in one resolution of SS).

How do we shore up these match-ups? MD Gatekeepers seem all right there, but what would a good SB look like? In my Bitterblossom list some number of Jitte looked good. Here's my update to that list for your perusal:

Mono-Black Sui

Land (17):
4 Bloodstained Mire
5 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Cabal Pit

Artifacts (6):
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
3 Null Rod

Creatures (7):
4 Dark Confidant   
3 Gatekeeper Of Malakir

Instants (8):
4 Dark Ritual
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Cabal Ritual
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Vampiric Tutor

Sorceries (18):
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Sadistic Sacrament
3 Tendrils Of Agony
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth’s Will

Enchantments (4):
3 Bitterblossom
1 Necropotence


SB
3 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Darkblast
1 Gatekeeper Of Malakir
4 Leyline Of The Void
4 Gate To Phyrexia
2 Pithing Needle

[Dalamar]

Storm,

The Chokes were left in there from my first draft, they can probably go, the life from the loam was in there because I had one open slot and it just seemed to fit for me.  The Tomb stalkers at first glance look really anti synergistic with Tarmogoyf, and when my friend first suggested it I was like what!!!? however at least when goldfishing it seems to just work.  I run so many Sorceries that come out fast, and fetches that fill the yard along with waste/strip, that I can keep at least one of each type of card for Goyf.

Against fish a 5/5 flyer can be a pain for them to deal with, they do have removal, but if I see this guy in my hand I might just target that removal first.

Oh I remember I put chokes in for anti blue fish, and Tez based deck, and to have an enchantment that could hit the yard for Goyf.

I also thought of more tendrils, but I just veer more to Agro/Fish than to Combo.

[nineisnoone]

if this isn't fake it will make Sui-black competitive.

Care to make it interesting? 

This would certainly force a shift of a few cards in time vault and ritual lists.  I doubt it will spawn new archetypes or bring back dead ones.

I wouldn't count Sui-Black as being dead though.  Not too long ago, I still saw the occasional Sui-Long-Black list (Ritual+Confidant+Tendrils). That said, Ritual+Sacrament steals 3 cards from their deck for a heavy card disadvantage.  If it were 2 for 2 so that you could Ritual+Duress+Sacrament, it would be stronger. 

That said, I'm pretty sure that Tezz or any relevant deck would FoW most of the time, so it definitely deserves some consideration.

What 3 Cards might you nab with this against Ichorid? Just curious cause it seems like it gives the deck a game 1 prayer against Ichorid.

-Storm

I don't think it's especially great in the match-up.  I agree with AmbivalentDuck on Dread Returns and Bridges though.

[Stormanimagus]

if this isn't fake it will make Sui-black competitive.

Care to make it interesting? 

This would certainly force a shift of a few cards in time vault and ritual lists.  I doubt it will spawn new archetypes or bring back dead ones.

I wouldn't count Sui-Black as being dead though.  Not too long ago, I still saw the occasional Sui-Long-Black list (Ritual+Confidant+Tendrils). That said, Ritual+Sacrament steals 3 cards from their deck for a heavy card disadvantage.  If it were 2 for 2 so that you could Ritual+Duress+Sacrament, it would be stronger. 

That said, I'm pretty sure that Tezz or any relevant deck would FoW most of the time, so it definitely deserves some consideration.

What 3 Cards might you nab with this against Ichorid? Just curious cause it seems like it gives the deck a game 1 prayer against Ichorid.

-Storm

I don't think it's especially great in the match-up.  I agree with AmbivalentDuck on Dread Returns and Bridges though.

But what split would you remove? I'd probably remove 3 Bridges to start with as the Gatekeeper seems capable of stopping a large critter (though they can just sac Narco instead of Troll). If they only run 1 Return would you take 1 Return and 2 Bridge? How do you play it out if they run 2 Return?

-Storm

[MirariKnight]

If you just take Narcomoeba doesn't that stop both problems + therapy?

[nineisnoone]

^^ Oh yeah, Narcos.  Those are options to grab too.

Well, I'm assuming no deck in particular.  

Unless if I had a way to answer Dread Return in hand, I'd probably remove that as my first priority.  And even if I did, it's a risk because they can always double Therapy it out of hand. So if I'm not running counters, I'd remove it regardless.  And I'd remove 3 Returns if they ran 3.  To me it's just the biggest bang for the buck.  They basically only run it for game 1 which shows how strong it is.

I actually don't think removing Bridges is that worthwhile, so I might not grab them. They'll have plenty of creatures to sacrifice with Narcomoeba, Fatesticher and Blood Ghast.  The only thing I could think of removing otherwise would be Therapies or and certain answers.  Therapies if you are running a combo variant or otherwise feel that if you can play your game, you can win on the back of that.  Some answers I might consider pulling are things like Ancient Grudge if I'm running Pithing Needle or something to that effect.  Maybe if I have Wasteland or I can Vamp for it on my next upkeep, I'd grab their Bazaars.

[voltron00x]

This card is very good, but I think a lot of you have it all wrong - theres no need to build strictly around this thing.  There are two decks already where I'd slot this in, in the SB or possibly one-of main depending on the meta.  One is the Tezz deck Jeremy Beaver played that ran Dark Rituals and one tendrils.  This card would be a huge blowout in the quasi-mirror and vs TPS.  The other would be in TPS or Drain Tendrils .  There's no reason why those decks wouldn't want to SB this card or, again, run as a one-of.  It seems very powerful to me.  It literally says "game over upon resolution" against many decks in the format, unless they already have a win con in hand, and those decks (TPS and Drain Tendrils) already run Thoughtseize / Duress AND permission AND the necessary black acceleration.  The fact that this card is also effective against Oath means that I can't imagine it WOULDN'T merit consideration in any deck running Rituals.

There's no need to build around this card - it slots pefectly into decks that are contenders and gives them a leg up.  Good stuff.  Bravo, WotC.

[Stormanimagus]

This card is very good, but I think a lot of you have it all wrong - theres no need to build strictly around this thing.  There are two decks already where I'd slot this in, in the SB or possibly one-of main depending on the meta.  One is the Tezz deck Jeremy Beaver played that ran Dark Rituals and one tendrils.  This card would be a huge blowout in the quasi-mirror and vs TPS.  The other would be in TPS or Drain Tendrils .  There's no reason why those decks wouldn't want to SB this card or, again, run as a one-of.  It seems very powerful to me.  It literally says "game over upon resolution" against many decks in the format, unless they already have a win con in hand, and those decks (TPS and Drain Tendrils) already run Thoughtseize / Duress AND permission AND the necessary black acceleration.  The fact that this card is also effective against Oath means that I can't imagine it WOULDN'T merit consideration in any deck running Rituals.

There's no need to build around this card - it slots pefectly into decks that are contenders and gives them a leg up.  Good stuff.  Bravo, WotC.

Agreed. I think sometimes a card is printed and you just sorta KNOW it'll be good. This seems to be one of those cards. Heck, Jester's Cap has been played in Shops decks as a solution for combo heavy metas for years and this card blows Cap out of the Water in terms of sheer power level. To play + activate Cap costs 6 mana (and Cap is to artifact removal if you can't activate it the same turn not to mention Null Rod though I realize Cap will probably be sided out against Null Rod decks cause it doesn't do anything vs. those decks anyway) and this costs the ever magical number of BBB. at BB this card would have been far to good but even at BBB it is solid. While the kicker may not easily be paid it may be relevant on the 2nd or 3rd copy of Sacrament when you are just trying to win quickly and there is a time crunch. Like, against Oath, if you've stripped all their win cons game 3 and you don't want to go to time, but you can seem to get enough beats in (don't know how that would be possible) you might be able to create a yawg win turn to rfg 15 of their cards and deck them. Just sayin it might come up once in a blue moon.

I do agree that this card doesn't need any deck built around it and can work very well in the SB or MD of ANY ritual deck, but I do think this would especially shine in a slower Sui-Style deck. That deck doesn't LOSE to the resolution of this card against them because it runs tons of creatures + perhaps some Tendrils and that deck is the deck that needs to lock the opponent out the most because it is underpowered. TPS may not want to run 3-4 of these between MD or SB because it might not be able to afford the slots but Mono-Black Sui certainly can and, right now, I'd run 4 of these MD rather than SB cause I think it's more important to have a boosted game 1 against Tezz, TPS, and Oath than it is to have one vs. Fish. Against Fish I'd rather just take my chances with Gatekeeper of Malakirs and try to win on the back of Jitte out of the SB + Removal. I'm gonna work on designing the most well-rounded Sui-deck built with this card and I'll get back to you all soon on it. My above list is a start, but I really need to weigh the pros and cons of running Tendrils. Tendrils for 6-10 seems solid in Theory, but it is a lot of cards to commit to a "win slow" strategy whereas Tarmogoyf is just 1. Hmmmmm. . .

-Storm

[Stormanimagus]

Ok. After much deliberation and thinking I've come to the following Sui-Black list. I think it uses the most effective hate I know of and is able to abuse Sadistic Sacrament better than most Ritual decks could. It is a controllish deck so protecting the sacrament shouldn't be a problem when you have 8 Duress effects (4 of which can easily be flashed back) + 4 Null Rod. The Bitterblossoms might be questionable but they just seem sooo good against Shops and that can be a tough matchup so I'll keep them in for now.

I also made sure to have plenty of SB slots devoted to Fish as I'll probably be siding out all 4 Null Rod and most of my Sacraments against them. I wanted to make sure I had good stuff to bring IN against them. Ok, here goes:

Sadistic Suicide-Black

Land (17):
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Polluted Delta
4 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Cabal Pit

Artifacts (6):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
4 Null Rod

Creatures (8):
4 Dark Confidant
4 Gatekeeper Of Malakir

Instants (8):
4 Dark Ritual
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Vampiric Tutor

Sorceries (17):
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Tendrils Of Agony
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Ponder
1 Time Walk
4 Sadistic Sacrament
1 Yawgmoth’s Will

Enchantments (4):
3 Bitterblossom
1 Necropotence

SB
3 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Darkblast
4 Leyline Of The Void
3 Pithing Needle
1 Gate To Phyrexia
2 Smother

[ilpeggiore]

Land
7 fetches
6 Swamp
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Artifacts
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
4 Null Rod

Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Gatekeeper Of Malakir
4 blood ghast
3 new vampire 2/2 cc1
2 rusalka

Instants
4 Dark Ritual
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Vampiric Tutor

Sorceries
4 Duress
1 Tendrils Of Agony
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Sadistic Sacrament
1 Yawgmoth’s Will

Enchantments
1 Necropotence
1 Bitterblossom

 old fashioned sui . blood ghast to make permanent vs artifact  without paying life.

if i would play with blue.... rebound and spell pierce.


Land (17):
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Polluted Delta
4 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Cabal Pit

Artifacts (6):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
4 Null Rod

Creatures (6):
4 Dark Confidant
2 Gatekeeper Of Malakir

Instants (8):
4 Dark Ritual
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Vampiric Tutor

Sorceries (21):
4 Duress
3 Thoughsize
3 Spell pierce
1 hurkyll/rebuild
1 echoing
2 Tendrils Of Agony
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk
4 Sadistic Sacrament
1 Yawgmoth’s Will

Enchantments (1)
1 Necropotence

yes, i'm playng a real combo deck

[zeromancer]

I don't know, this really sounds like a fake. Did you see the kicker effect? Come on, there's not even a source given here.

//Edit: Ok, they have it on mtgsalvation. Well lets wait and see if it turns out the way it's spoiled.