Zendikar top 5 - vroman

[vroman]

Zendy is replete with eternal format contenders. here are my picks.


Iona Shield of Emeria
best disruption oath target yet. in many matches this effectively ends the game after first oath activation, which means oath becomes fast enough to be tier 1 again. Also a good Dread Return target, but less relevant, bc if icky has clear path to resolve dread return, they have prob already cabal therapied the hell out of enemy hand, and the game is already won.

Mindbreak Trap
very interesting card that trumps storm for 0, and doesnt require blue to run. at worst will probably see sideboard play in nonU decks that traditionally have trouble w combo.

Spell Pierce
new best counterspell at U. should become defacto secondary counter behind force for decks that dont want to commit to UU drains. ie fish/oath.

Sphinx of Lost Truths
strictly better than Cephalid Sage for icky builds still running that

Bloodghast
standout competitor across multiple archetypes. has potent application in dredge, effectively replacing the namesake card.
allows powerhouse draw engine w sklamp, in either fish or drain shell, and gives both decks a huge safety buffer against stax.
could theoretically also be abused in stax

Ravenous Trap
very efficient yard hate. costed same as tormod, w surprise factor. vintage puts 3cards in yard almost every turn, so it will be very easy to meet the trap requirements. hitting whole yard makes this worth playing over say faerie macabre, altho macabre is uncounterable, and can become decent aggro guy in pinch.

Sadistic Sacrament
ritual-> jester cap is real strong. the fact that this is strikingly playable, brings to mind the still underexplored power of Bitter Ordeal from all the way back in future sight.

Vampire Hexmage
the dark depths synergy adds to the list of very undercosted combos available in type 1. this wins in 1 swing after creation, and is immune to null rod. we are still working on coming up w the optimal home for this tactic. 2c 2/1 first strike is competitive as generic aggro as well.

Goblin Guide
best single R aggro creature ever. very much at home next to maggie moon.

Arid Mesa, Misty Rainforest, Scalded Tarn, Verdant Catacombs, Marsh Flats
the long awaited enemy fetch cycle will smooth over the rare gap in certain manabases. properly diversified mana base will look almost highlander at this point, and forever end the corner case opportunity of extirpate or pith needle on fetch land. certainly the two blue ones will be auto-include in any blue-centric deck w 4+ fetches.
the nonU fetches will also be immediate additions, of a more practical nature to more easily get basics in say magus moon hate, etc.



MAYBE

Steppe Lynx
theoretically best vanilla single W aggro creature ever. combined w fetches + loam, can consistently attack for 4, for single mana. downside is it attacks nothing if the engine is not online.

Into the Roil
universal bounce@2c, w opportunity to cantrip. not bad, but probably not better than echoing truth or wipe away. when you need to bounce something, its more important to make sure it gets bounced, than to maintain card adv.

Trapmaker's Snare
possibly playable as 1of, to manage toolbox answers Mindbreak+Ravenous

Gatekeeper of Malakir
doubtful, but this could be played as edict effect w legs, in some heavy black hate deck.

Grim Discovery
efficient 2for1. getting back countered dconf + wasteland seems pretty good for 2c. prob cant justify slots tho.

Plated Geopede
in the same vein of steppe lynx but will always deal atleast 1, and prob rules the ground w first strike+pump.

Pyromancer Ascension
I mention this card only to make fun of DFT. this card is shit. please describe the sequence of plays where this does anything. maybe it combos w Braid of Fire!

Warren Instigator
doubtful this fits into goblins. the t1-> lackey t2->ringleader(etc) play is just too critical, to make room for either something like chrome mox/spirit guide, or get 2 guys on t3.

Lotus Cobra
this card is weak sauce for plethora of reasons. there is no way hate decks can make room for marginal mana accel bear

Sythe Tiger
another solid 1 drop aggro, prob better in legacy tho.

Summoning Trap
doubtful this could be efficiently abused, but it has "cost-cheating" written on it.

Expedition Map
its almost certainly more efficient to splash green for crop rotation, than play this, if you are hard up to tutor for land.

Valakut Molten Pinacle
this card is viable wincon in all-in adnauseum deck, w manabond, that is actually better than belcher, but still fairly fragile


Top 5

1. Enemy fetches
2. Spell Pierce
3. Bloodghast
4. Iona Shield Emeria
5. Mindbreak Trap

honorable mention to Vampire Hexmage, bc too early to tell if this combo is competitive. if so, then hexmage would probably be #1 slot.

[ShawnTheDoctor]

Enemy fetches are number one? Really? I don't doubt they will get played, but the net change to the format is almost nil.  Mindbreak Trap is my #1 just because it's going to be in every player's mind right before they go off.

Also I see you left off Candelabra. 

[Sporkcore]

Enemy fetches will get played the most out of all those cards. There seems to have been a rise in Stax lately and getting to play that one off color basic will help mana bases. I think Vroman did a solid call on the cards, though I think Spell Peirce will be a flash in the pan.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

Enemy fetches are number one? Really? I don't doubt they will get played
Also I see you left off Candelabra.  

is this a joke?

[Guli]

I like the thread, it gives a little oversight about the worthy cards. I hope you didn't miss something though.

Expedition Map is a very bad card. You can use Into the North (next to crop rotation) to support the combo with Hexmage.

Summoning Trap is most likely a card you misplaced in your categorizing. I think it will see play in non-teeg aggro control (and maybe even with teeg), Force of will is not going to disappear, neither is mana drain. I believe having this card is very important when their drain is up and ready. It creates tempo.

[BruiZar]

I would add Pirahna Marsh just for the fact that it is a nice combo win condition in fastbond decks that cannot be countered, redirected or prevented.

Though not vintage material, I'm pretty sure Bloodchief Ascension will start low and rise in price later. Day of Judgment will be worth money too amongst non-eternal players.

I disagree with your take on Lotus Cobra.

Also, what do you think about Quest for the Holy Relic in Elf Combo, Affinity or Kobold Clamp?

You can tutor and equip a  Fireshrieker on an Arcbound Ravager before combat damage is dealt but after blockers are declared. You can find your Skull Clamp. You can find and attach a Sunforger, Sword of Fire Ice, Jitte and even Shield of Kaldra seems nice.

[Bone]

1) Enemy fetches (ofcourse)
2) Ravenous Trap (sideboard)
3) Bloodghast (tricks with Intuition/Sklamp)
4) Vampire Hexmage (in all formats)
5) Warren Investigator (double lackeystrike)

I'm grabbing the top 3 for Vintage, Hexmage for extended and couldn't care less about gobbos

[Neonico]

Expedition map is by far better than crop rotation in decks playing welders, shop, babababa.....
Not to mention facing a Force of Will deck.... It's an auto include for me in stax.

[Troy_Costisick]

Not too bad, Vroman.  I like your review, but my top 5 would be:

1. Enemy Fetches
2. Mindbreak Trap
3. Ravenous Trap
4. Expedition Map
5. Spell Pierce

[nineisnoone]

I really doubt the hexmage combo is going anywhere.  
It's a mana-less land and a creature that is double non-blue.  You're needing at least 2 black mana sources to cast hexmage. Presuming it's lands to cast, it's a turn 4 win. Even if you go Swamp, Ritual, Hexmage, next turn Dark Depths, it's still a turn 3 win condition because of summoning sickness that dies to targeted bounce and most removal (i.e. edict).

Of course, I could be wrong.

Expedition Map is better than Crop Rotation (dare I say).  It costs the same to cast, and it casts on the same turn.  What's the difference between first turn Expedition Map and first turn Crop Rotation?  It's still a must counter turn 1 play.  That is the only thing that is important to know.  If Shop goes, Workshop->Map, you must counter it because if they drop Mox->Cruicible, you are done.  That is a lot easier to work into the Shop strategy than Crop Rotation. The mana cost is not as important as it would seem.  It's still a turn 1 play.  And it still will win you the game through Strip recursion. Let's not forget that Crop Rotation slows your own game by destroying one of your lands and forcing you into colored mana.  Or forget that Welder can recur your Map if it gets countered.  Or how much better this card is if it does get countered.

I actually like Roil a lot, probably prefer it to Echoing Truth.  Not sure if it's better than Chain or Wipe Away (which I also like a lot), but I like the advantages it offers enough to think it would be a reasonable pick.

I like Summoning Trap, but I agree and don't think it'll be godly.  I like it better than REB, but I'm actually a fan of Leyline of Lifeforce at certain creature densities.  Comboing is too slow (typically going to be 3 mana off land drops) with too many parts (must-counter creature + tutor + summoner's trap) and is assuming that they can't deal with the creature in some other means that makes it irrelevant.  That's a lot to go wrong.  To me, it's card advantage against FoW, but I'm thinking I'd rather have Leyline (though I do realize my love for the card is something of a personal taste).

and in no order
1) Map
2) Iona
3) Pierce
4) Bloodgast
5) Mindbreak

[Guli]

Expedition Map is better than Crop Rotation (dare I say).  It costs the same to cast, and it casts on the same turn.  What's the difference between first turn Expedition Map and first turn Crop Rotation?  It's still a must counter turn 1 play.  That is the only thing that is important to know.  If Shop goes, Workshop->Map, you must counter it because if they drop Mox->Cruicible, you are done.  That is a lot easier to work into the Shop strategy than Crop Rotation. The mana cost is not as important as it would seem.  It's still a turn 1 play.  And it still will win you the game through Strip recursion. Let's not forget that Crop Rotation slows your own game by destroying one of your lands and forcing you into colored mana.  Or forget that Welder can recur your Map if it gets countered.  Or how much better this card is if it does get countered.

Are you kidding me?

2 obvious differences:

,
put it into your hand

[madmanmike25]

Expedition Map is a very bad card.

Not at all. 

"Search your library for A LAND CARD, reveal it, and put it into your hand."

The fact is that most tutors put the cards you search for into your hand.  Some even go on top of your library.  Why does that make Map a bad card?  It searches for Strip Mine, Academy, Shop, Bazaar, Dark Depths, etc. etc.  Stax is build around slowing the game down, and this card fits right in.  Do you think in a deck with Tangles, Chalices, Spheres, and Smokes you wont get the opportunity to lay down a land next turn????
 
I think the pre-stated advantages make this card playable:

If this gets countered you arent out a land drop.   
It's weldable so in those drawn out games you can thin your deck out.
It's colorless so MUD and non G decks can use it.

I'll be testing 2-4 of these in Stax for sure.

[Guli]

Expedition Map is a very bad card.

Not at all. 

"Search your library for A LAND CARD, reveal it, and put it into your hand."

The fact is that most tutors put the cards you search for into your hand.  Some even go on top of your library.  Why does that make Map a bad card?  It searches for Strip Mine, Academy, Shop, Bazaar, Dark Depths, etc. etc.  Stax is build around slowing the game down, and this card fits right in.  Do you think in a deck with Tangles, Chalices, Spheres, and Smokes you wont get the opportunity to lay down a land next turn????
 
I think the pre-stated advantages make this card playable:

If this gets countered you arent out a land drop.   
It's weldable so in those drawn out games you can thin your deck out.
It's colorless so MUD and non G decks can use it.

I'll be testing 2-4 of these in Stax for sure.

What are you going to cut? What version of Stax?
Seems to me investing 3 mana to find a land in your deck is not the way to go. Also there is a lot artifact nixing/removal around. Think about the splash damage.

Let me know how it goes, I like being wrong.

[vroman]

I would add Pirahna Marsh just for the fact that it is a nice combo win condition in fastbond decks that cannot be countered, redirected or prevented.

I disagree with your take on Lotus Cobra.

Also, what do you think about Quest for the Holy Relic in Elf Combo, Affinity or Kobold Clamp?

You can tutor and equip a  Fireshrieker on an Arcbound Ravager before combat damage is dealt but after blockers are declared. You can find your Skull Clamp. You can find and attach a Sunforger, Sword of Fire Ice, Jitte and even Shield of Kaldra seems nice.

you do realize we are talking about vintage? how the fuck does piranha marsh combo w fastbond? oh you mean when you also have crucible and zuran orb? only 4 cards! it also combos w not-tapping-for-mana when you need it.
Lotus Cobra is shit. if you get a turn where you get to make two 2drops via fetchland, does not make up for the fact you spent the previous turn playing irrel bear.
re: quest Holy Relic. steelshaper gift exists for all your kiddie combo needs. plus you get what you want right away for same cost.
no more suggestions please.


ok for the rest of you: expedition map is mediocre at best. play black tutors. between dtutor, vtutor, impseal, and maybe dconsult, you have about as many tutors as can be supported before you are cutting too far into lock consistency. how is this 'faster' than crop? crop gets the land into play immediately for 1/3 the cost. you have strange definitions of speed.

[Prospero]

Vroman!  Come on... My Zendikar top 5 is more like:

1.  Black Lotus
2.  Ancestral Recall
3.  Mox Sapphire
4.  Mox Jet
5.  Mox Ruby

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=186613

This is absolutely absurd.  Awesome marketing move by Wizards as long as this is true...

[voltron00x]

Vroman!  Come on... My Zendikar top 5 is more like:

1.  Black Lotus
2.  Ancestral Recall
3.  Mox Sapphire
4.  Mox Jet
5.  Mox Ruby

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=186613

This is absolutely absurd.  Awesome marketing move by Wizards as long as this is true...

Actually it makes zero sense to me to be honest (from a marketing perspective), considering that the set is already selling for $100 a box on SCG just because of the enemy fetchlands and is sold out for a few months... demand was already ludicrously high compared to a normal expansion (usually boxes retail for $80-85 on SCG). 

If this is true, though, it would be pretty awesome.

[BruiZar]

I would add Pirahna Marsh just for the fact that it is a nice combo win condition in fastbond decks that cannot be countered, redirected or prevented.

I disagree with your take on Lotus Cobra.

Also, what do you think about Quest for the Holy Relic in Elf Combo, Affinity or Kobold Clamp?

You can tutor and equip a  Fireshrieker on an Arcbound Ravager before combat damage is dealt but after blockers are declared. You can find your Skull Clamp. You can find and attach a Sunforger, Sword of Fire Ice, Jitte and even Shield of Kaldra seems nice.

you do realize we are talking about vintage? how the fuck does piranha marsh combo w fastbond? oh you mean when you also have crucible and zuran orb? only 4 cards! it also combos w not-tapping-for-mana when you need it.
Lotus Cobra is shit. if you get a turn where you get to make two 2drops via fetchland, does not make up for the fact you spent the previous turn playing irrel bear.
re: quest Holy Relic. steelshaper gift exists for all your kiddie combo needs. plus you get what you want right away for same cost.
no more suggestions please.


ok for the rest of you: expedition map is mediocre at best. play black tutors. between dtutor, vtutor, impseal, and maybe dconsult, you have about as many tutors as can be supported before you are cutting too far into lock consistency. how is this 'faster' than crop? crop gets the land into play immediately for 1/3 the cost. you have strange definitions of speed.

Does Steelshapers Gift pay for the casting cost, the equipment cost and allow you to equip in your opponents turn for ? Does Steelshapers Gift allow you to equip during your attack step? Quest for the Holy Relic does that and it costs the same. I can definately see an affinity build with Ethersworn Canonist and Relics use this card succesfully. The comment about Pirahna Marsh was purely as a combo tool, not neccesarily because its viable now but because of the fact that its a land, thus it cannot be countered, and has lose life instead of damage, and doesn't require the loss of life to occur through an activated ability but as a triggered ability. Barbarian Ring may be better, but its still a noteworthy progression of the game mechanics that are available in the card pool, even if barbarian ring at the moment is better.

As for Lotus Cobra. You have your opinion and I have mine. If there is room for a card like Noble Hierarch in vintage, there is probably room for a card like Lotus Cobra.

you do realize we are talking about vintage? how the fuck does piranha marsh combo w fastbond? oh you mean when you also have crucible and zuran orb? only 4 cards! it also combos w not-tapping-for-mana when you need it.

Zendy is replete with eternal format contenders. here are my picks.
Vampire Hexmage
the dark depths synergy adds to the list of very undercosted combos available in type 1. this wins in 1 swing after creation, and is immune to null rod. we are still working on coming up w the optimal home for this tactic. 2c 2/1 first strike is competitive as generic aggro as well.

So you list Vampire Hexmage to your top picks, requiring Dark Depths, a card that combos w not-tapping-for-mana when you need it. Yet Piranha Marsh (which does SOMETHING when it comes into play) is not vintage worthy because of the fact that it comes into play tapped? Your rationale for discarding Pirahna Marsh because it comes into play tapped is clearly wrong. Btw I'm happy your grizzly bear has first strike, making it a total bomb in vintage. You can chump my tundra wolves with it now.



It's pretty obvious that you type before you think. Evidenced by the fact that you've opened multiple duplicate threads during the zendikar spoiler period, disregarding the efforts made by others to contribute to the vintage community.

[vroman]

dark depths makes a one swing win, w 2c investment. piranha marsh is completely inconsequential part of 4card combo. if you can assume you have fastbond+zuran+crucible, then being infi life already beats like 50% of decks. piranha marsh is so far down the list of things Id put in a deck designed to abuse fastbond, its sub-casual. it is NOT noteworthy.

cast FIVE creatures. how many creatures does this afinity deck play? 20? so you will have on avg 2-3 creatures in opening hand. after you pay W for quest as your opening play, lest you "waste" a creature cast, that wont trigger questing. w variance, you wont cast 5 creatures any sooner than turn 3, and end of your quest you get something that is guaranteed to not disrupt. Shield of Kaldra?! go home!

noble heirarch costs 1, casts selkie turn 2, and doubles draw power. Im not a huge fan of that engine, but it clearly is synergistic tempo. what does lotus cobra do? to assure it t1 you are playing offcolor moxen, so already running above avg amt of mana, just play good stuff to cast w your mana, instead of wasting a card and turn to recoup the lost tempo you just gave up. Id rather play werebear.

[honestabe]

My zendikar top 5 is

Ancestral recall
Black lotus
Moxen
Time Walk
Time twister



But in all seriousness, I think that lotus cobra will be very expensive nd get a lot of play, until people realize its juat a green creature with a 1 butt.  And noone really wants a green creature.   I'd like to see a Grow-a-tog type deck that uses that 1/1 for U and gets a +1/+1 counter whenever an opponent shuffles a library.  Fetches are obv in the top of the list also

[Diakonov]

1. Spell Pierce
2. Iona
3. Sadistic Sacrament
4. Enemy Fetches
5. ???

I think the fifth slot is a toss up between the traps and Hexmage.  My list is only looking at Vintage, which is why Bloodghast is not on there (probably better than Ichorid, but not much of a change really).  Personally, I think Mindbreak Trap may suffer from the same problems that Stifle and Trickbind have suffered from as far as combo hate goes.  Betting on countering the storm spell is a bit risky.

I'm surprised that no one is considering Sacrament to be one of the best.  It hits Tezz so hard...the best deck in the format...

[vroman]

My zendikar top 5 is

Ancestral recall
Black lotus
Moxen
Time Walk
Time twister



But in all seriousness, I think that lotus cobra will be very expensive nd get a lot of play, until people realize its juat a green creature with a 1 butt.  And noone really wants a green creature.   I'd like to see a Grow-a-tog type deck that uses that 1/1 for U and gets a +1/+1 counter whenever an opponent shuffles a library.  Fetches are obv in the top of the list also

someone just made that joke. also cosi trickster has saem problem as mold adder. its vanilla guy that only gets noticable sized when they are running off to victory.

[Stormanimagus]

1. Spell Pierce
2. Iona
3. Sadistic Sacrament
4. Enemy Fetches
5. ???

I think the fifth slot is a toss up between the traps and Hexmage.  My list is only looking at Vintage, which is why Bloodghast is not on there (probably better than Ichorid, but not much of a change really).  Personally, I think Mindbreak Trap may suffer from the same problems that Stifle and Trickbind have suffered from as far as combo hate goes.  Betting on countering the storm spell is a bit risky.

I'm surprised that no one is considering Sacrament to be one of the best.  It hits Tezz so hard...the best deck in the format...

I have no doubt in my mind that Sacrament will be extremely powerful (check out the card discussion thread about it that I've been posting in) and I too don't understand why it is being so underrated. Here are my top 5 (not counting Fetches cause everyone knows those'll be played):

1. Sadistic Sacrament
2. Spell Pierce
3. Expedition Map
4. Iona
5. Ravenous Trap

Honorable Mention:

1. Bloodghast
2. Mindbreak Trap
3. Gatekeeper Of Malakir
4. Sphinx Of Lost Truths
5. Ob Nixilis, The Fallen
6. Vampire Hexmage
7. Lotus Cobra
8. Cosi's Trickster

Ok. So actually that's really like a top 13. I really think people don't quite realize how powerful Expedition Map could be in Mono-Brown or Mono-Red Shops. It WILL see some play. Just how much is not yet known.

That's how I'd round out my top 13 Zendikar playables.

-Storm

[Guli]

what does lotus cobra do? to assure it t1 you are playing offcolor moxen, so already running above avg amt of mana, just play good stuff to cast w your mana, instead of wasting a card and turn to recoup the lost tempo you just gave up. Id rather play werebear.

There is something about cobra that still makes me think about the card.

He makes fetchlands black lotus for the rest of the game. Crop rotation can get a fetchland and so on. This is serious acceleration for the duration of the game. It is just a land drop, you still have your stuff in hand. Cobra seems to be a walking ritual enabler. So I think he could theoretically fit in a control deck that has some big on the spot finisher making it control comboish.

The problem is the slot cobra takes, it could be dark ritual itself. But! The difference is that cobra gives you lotus petals and not just black mana. This is a serious pro argument.

I was goldfishing with cobra. It was useful how i played land and had 1 black to play duress effect without tapping land. It was real tempo. I am not hyping the card, i did explore it a bit in the opening thread. But let's not completely break it down either. The flashback keyword might be handy here to use that extra mana and turn it into a concrete card advantage. (fe. Recoup, Ancient Grudge, Deep Analysis,...)

[Troy_Costisick]

The real problem with Cobra IMO is that he doesn't impact the game state right away.  Cards like Canonist, Gorilla Shaman, and Mindcensor change things immediately.  The only two creatuers I don't mind just sitting there the turn they come into play are Goyf and Bob.  Do you think Cobra is as good as them?  It's an honest question.  I'm willing to be convinced.

[Guli]

The real problem with Cobra IMO is that he doesn't impact the game state right away.  Cards like Canonist, Gorilla Shaman, and Mindcensor change things immediately.  The only two creatuers I don't mind just sitting there the turn they come into play are Goyf and Bob.  Do you think Cobra is as good as them?  It's an honest question.  I'm willing to be convinced.

This is my line of reasoning as well, and sometimes I even dare to cut goyf or bob just because i want the get that general immediate effect going for every card. Dark confidant is justified with cards, tarmogoyf is justified because of the clock he puts opponents on, cobra gives you mana, so the question is;

Is mana a worthy long term investment? I want to say yes but I also want to be careful of course not to be misleading. What is safe to say is that against decks that attack your mana base (so in a meta were there is a lot of mana denial) these cobra's should prove very useful just like dark confidant is a pain in the ass for control decks. Shusher doesn't 'do' anything either, it just nullifies the counter spells of the opponent but those who played him against drain/force know how game breaking he can be. We tend to be very critical about cards (which is a good quality, staying sharp) but sometimes their are exceptions. Asking me if cobra is one of them is too early, but the testings so far show me that when you get to use his triggered ability crazy things can be done. Crazy enough? Don't know yet.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Sadistic Sacrament
ritual-> jester cap is real strong. the fact that this is strikingly playable, brings to mind the still underexplored power of Bitter Ordeal from all the way back in future sight.

Bitter Ordeal isn't underexplored.  It's a bitch to 'break' since you need to crack a fetch/wasteland + kill one of your own creatures + use a Lotus or something like it.

The card sucked and I tried like hell to fit it into the Hide/Seek TMWA deck I had at the time.  Sadistic Sacrament is far easier to enable and that'll get it played.

[nineisnoone]

ok for the rest of you: expedition map is mediocre at best. play black tutors. between dtutor, vtutor, impseal, and maybe dconsult, you have about as many tutors as can be supported before you are cutting too far into lock consistency. how is this 'faster' than crop? crop gets the land into play immediately for 1/3 the cost. you have strange definitions of speed.

I don't think anyone said that it was faster than Crop.  Nor did we claim that it was better than Dtutor, Vtutor, Seal, or Consult?  At least, I didn't.

For the record, I never thought Crop Rotation was going to be the broken.  And I don't think it's fair to compare this card to the Restricted list.  Would any of your top cards be anything other than "mediocre at best" if I compared it to Demonic Tutor?  As of yet, Vintage is not restricted cards only.

At the end of the day, both Crop Rotation and Expedition Map are powerful, not because of themselves, but because of Crucible of Worlds.  And before Crucible, Crop Rotation is parity on lands and -1 card overall while Expedition Map is +1 on lands and parity on cards overall. Additionally, Crop forces you into color, forces you to either blow up a Workshop or one of your rainbow lands (pre-Cruicible either choice is very painful) and when countered is a heavy disavantage.  Map is castable of a Shop, doesn't cost you a land, and fairly painless if it gets countered (or blown up).

What are you going to cut? What version of Stax?
Seems to me investing 3 mana to find a land in your deck is not the way to go. Also there is a lot artifact nixing/removal around. Think about the splash damage.

Let me know how it goes, I like being wrong.

Why is 3 mana to search a land horrible?  We're not talking about fish decks here.  3 mana to a Stax list is nothing.  

Splash damage is irrelevant.  We're talking about Stax here.  Splash damage?  Think about the deck you are playing.  It's Stax.  Of course, they are going to blow up your artifacts.  What else are they going to do other than lose?

There is something about cobra that still makes me think about the card.

He makes fetchlands black lotus for the rest of the game.

The problem with comparing Cobra to Black Lotus is that Black Lotus isn't powerful because it gives you 3 mana.  There are tons of cards that can do that.  It's powerful because it costs 0 to play.  Lotus Cobra costs 2.  It's not trash, but it's not going to be any better than cards like Noble Heirarch or Werebear (you laugh, but I've seen a playable list than runs it).

[Guli]

Why is 3 mana to search a land horrible?  We're not talking about fish decks here.  3 mana to a Stax list is nothing. 

Sure workshop decks can produce a lot of mana fairly quickly, but you still have to make a choice were to invest that mana into. By choosing to tutor a land for 3 mana (yes ok you don't need color it is all brown nice one) you are NOT doing something else, something that might be relevant and necessary.

Suppose you use expedition map AFTER you get down your lock pieces (if you don't you will not survive), how strong of a follow up is it? Was this land tutor the card shop decks were waiting for? Is this the last piece that completes the puzzle? How big of an effect do you predict for expedition map nineisnoone? I can see some versions of shop using it as an utility sure, but saying it will very powerful, what does that actually mean for the meta? Please explain.

With splash damage I mean cards like null rod and ancient grudge. Or do you think you will have mana lying around all the time ready to activate it. With an important win condition like vault/key in the scene, people will always play artifact hate. If by any means the crucible/strip becomes too powerful, people will adapt fairly easy. You can't put down spheres, wires, etc... AND crucible plus tutor for your land all at the same time.

Another thing is there are really not that many lands to tutor for. Maybe bazaar, strip, wasteland, glacial and the tabernacle. Could be a couple more sure but I am guessing these will be using these? Unless you have some hidden tech, please share if you do.

Fish has noble hierarch, vials, null rod, trygon, shaman, magus of the moon, .....
combo is fast enough to not care
dredge doesn't need that many bazaar activations these days, you better strip it fast
drain decks will not be impressed either they can produce more than enough acceleration to survive a relatively early strip lock

My conclusion, it looks like a good utility if people choose to run it, however I wouldn't bet on it by being extremely powerful.

[madmanmike25]

It comes down for only 1 mana.  I can easily see Stax/MUD going:

3 mana-> Chalice(maybe), Sphere, Map.

To me thats a solid play.  You can wait until they crack those fetches before you tutor.  In the meantime you just play more threats.  Seems simple and effective to me.  This card makes Crucible a huge threat.  Before, it was almost inconsequential.

Stip is likely the #1 Target with Tolarian probably coming in #2.  I dont think I would play with Map and a bunch of land singletons for utility.  Well, not maindeck anyway as that would take away focus from the deck.  Guli, the Tabernacle is actually a good suggestion for a SB card.


Now with Lotus Cobra I would rather hear what 3-4 cc THREAT would justify playing the snake.  I dont think Cobra has a snowballs chance in hell unless paired with Confidant.  It will see play in Vintage if a card like Aether Vial sees play.  Tempo and color smoothing are important.  I would still need to be convinced that more than 2 should be in a deck though.

[Will]

I like Expedition Map but only in a very narrow sense of what it does.  It seems as though the card would be played instead of Crop Rotation as a singleton/ occasional two of in a deck like 5cStax.  Granted that Crop Rotation is seeing less and less play it seems, it still can be very useful.  For 5cStax I play Barbarian Ring, Strip Mine, Academy, and Bazaar as likely targets along with Shop and Waste.  When comparing the card to Crop Rotation you must look at Pros and Cons for each and then make your decision.  Crop Rotation has the benefits of being an Instant, only costing G, and putting the land in play.  Cons are that you must sacrifice a land and have a Green mana to play, allowing you to get blown out if countered.  Map has the benefits of costing only colorless, being an artifact accesible to Welder, and allowing you to wait until you need your card after resolving it.  Cons to it are being sorcery speed, Null Rod/ Ancient Grudge, not having an easy activation cost, putting the card into your hand, and being situationally terrible.  Based on this alone it seems that Crop Rotation gets the nod in most situations simply because it can accelerate you, and is easy to cast when compared to Expedition Map.  Mud also now has the option to play the card which could be useful in the right situations allowing the deck to do more since it has times where it has abundance.  Mud or another Stax deck without green is almost definitely the spot to put Map to use specifically Metalworker (Mud) which really wants more tutoring power that isn't off color since it is Mono Brown.