Sadistic Suicide (The most fun I've had in Vintage in ages)

[the_lord_shaper]

    Our local tourney at S2D, voted last week in favor of allowing Zendikar cards to be played early.  Thus I switched to Suicide this week, and wow was it ever fun yo!

Creatures: 11
4 Dark Confidants
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Vampire Hexmage

Sorcery and Instants: 22
4 Dark Ritual
2 cabal Ritual
4 Sadistic Sacrament
1 Vamp. tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
1 Imperial seal
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tendrils of Agony

Artifacts: 8
3 Null Rod
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Lotus Petal

Lands: 18
3 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 bayou
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
3 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawmoth
2 Dark Depths

Sideboard: 15
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Korsan Grip
3 Yixlid Jailer
2 Ravenous Trap
2 Umezawa's Jette


    The deck overall was perfect in almost every game. I did find out quite early that Tendrils was terrible in this deck. It seemed good on paper and in gold fishing, but nope... awful. Almost every game, I played a turn one Sacrament, man that card is so good!! But the real star of the deck turned out to be the Hexmage and Dark Depths combo. I beat Oath, Dredge, and a U/B deck (Not quite sure what he was playing) with the Marit Lage token. Gatekeeper also proved useful in just about every game, I'm glade I keep him as a 4 of. I only had a day to throw this together, so there's a lot of room for improvement, but still I haven't had so much fun in ages....

[vartemis]

If tendrils was so underwhelming, what would you consider putting in instead?  You have the splash, so how about a crop rotation or loam?

I was working on a similar deck, but my green splash was used for loams.  I also had ghasts and skullclamps as my draw engine.  I'm wondering how popular DD will be, seeing as it is now going for over $10 on ebay and SCG is sold out.

j

[the_lord_shaper]

    DD was awesome, playing a creature that even Oath can't handle is just well...priceless. In place of Tendrils, I have put in a Mind Twist so far. The clamp draw engine is very good, but Null Rod just seems to powerful to completely omit.

[EnialisLiadon]

I think Demonic Consultation would be a great addition.  Getting a Null Rod on turn 1 and playing on turn 2 is huge.  Sacrament is also gg against some decks, so it's an additional tutor for that.  And it can fetch either part of the Hexmage/Depths combo.  The risk in this deck is negligible.

[BruiZar]

have you tried more urborgs + more dark depths so you can go first turn urborg, 2nd turn dakr depths into hexmage?

[the_lord_shaper]

have you tried more urborgs + more dark depths so you can go first turn urborg, 2nd turn dakr depths into hexmage?

   Right now, I like the ratio of 3:2 of Hexmages to Depths. Its a fun and good combo, but adding more I think would be over kill. I like to think of this combo almost like Tinker for mono black in a way. You could build this deck based around those two, but you also might open yourself up to more hate, like Pithing Needles and Wastlelands.

[jaeppel]

I agree with the comment about demonic consulation.  I would run it in the slot of imperial seal, instant cantrip>sorcery card-disadvantage.  it gets the marit lage combo piece thats missing, fetches sacrement... Imperial seal is better when it has a huge menu of busted singletons to choose from, which is just not the case here.

I am curious in your testing, how often did you pull off a will into a kicked sacrement?  15 cards is the nuts against just about everything.  It seems like that would be enough of a combo kill that the tendrils is just gravy, although i hate to see that card go.

Have you thought about trying bloodghast/clamp in a build like this?  Clamp is a draw engine with every dood in this deck.  hell, even sac confidant to get the cards now instead of wating two upkeeps.  cycle extra hexmages, and stuff.   just a thought, although im not sure what i would cut to squeeze in clamp, i feel this could benefit from more draw.

thanks zendikar, for bringing back monoblack

[the_lord_shaper]

I agree with the comment about demonic consulation.  I would run it in the slot of imperial seal, instant cantrip>sorcery card-disadvantage.  it gets the marit lage combo piece thats missing, fetches sacrement... Imperial seal is better when it has a huge menu of busted singletons to choose from, which is just not the case here.

I am curious in your testing, how often did you pull off a will into a kicked sacrement?  15 cards is the nuts against just about everything.  It seems like that would be enough of a combo kill that the tendrils is just gravy, although i hate to see that card go.

Have you thought about trying bloodghast/clamp in a build like this?  Clamp is a draw engine with every dood in this deck.  hell, even sac confidant to get the cards now instead of wating two upkeeps.  cycle extra hexmages, and stuff.   just a thought, although im not sure what i would cut to squeeze in clamp, i feel this could benefit from more draw.

thanks zendikar, for bringing back monoblack

    I have only pulled off Sacrament's Kicker if I had Yangmoth Will.  But I have played 3 Sacraments in a few games though. I do agree that the clamp/bloodghast engine is good, but it will take up many slots and you lose Null Rod. I think that Null Rod is just simply too good to cut. I will try out Consultation, since I'm cutting tendrils, that'll open up a slot. Right now that slot is mind Twist but that might just be a "win more" card right now...

[Negator]

I tried too to do some monoblack with Sadistic Sacrament and the combo. I found the build really good except against... Fish and MUD. Do you have the same problems? What could we run against those two matchups? Darkblast? Hopefully, Vampire Hexmage has first strike, but I don't know if that's enough ! And then against MUD?

[Mr. Fantastic]

Looks like a fun deck to play. In particular, I find the Timmy, Power Gamer value of Hexmage/Dark Depths laudable.

[LennoxLewis86]

I agree that Null Rod would be too good to cut, but on the other hand: Sacrament and Null Rod kind of attack the same decks. Combodecks and Tez..
Perhaps you could try making the deck more resilient to other decks: Fishdecks and MUD, as these decks appearantly are tough to deal with.

An idea would be to include more creatures to outmuscle Fish critters and try dogging the Stax players with raw power.

How is the splash been working for you? Because you can't get much better than Tarmogoyf if you want raw power.. You should try playing with them in the maindeck, and use the free slots to improve another bad match-up?

Just a thought..

I love the idea, and I would really love to play this deck.. My girlfriend's name is Marit, so yeah.. I'd definitely play this deck for the fun of it.

[the_lord_shaper]

I tried too to do some monoblack with Sadistic Sacrament and the combo. I found the build really good except against... Fish and MUD. Do you have the same problems? What could we run against those two matchups? Darkblast? Hopefully, Vampire Hexmage has first strike, but I don't know if that's enough ! And then against MUD?

    Fish decks aren't hard to deal with post board. Game 1 may be a bit tricky, but don't forget you have a edict with legs, a first striking vampire, sacrament (which can remove creatures from your opponent's deck), and a combo to poo out a 20/20 indestructible flyer. In game 2 and 3 I would board out the null rods, duresses, and 2 scraments. In their places i would put in 4 tarmogoyfs, 3 jailers, and 2 jittes. With this sideboard option, you now have 17 creatures (4 of which are kill spells), and jitte to deal with fish. The only aggro deck that could be a pain is Zoo.
    For MUD, I would keep in the duress and null rods. I would put in gofys and grips and take out 4 sacraments, 2 cabal ritual, and either a duress or gatekeeper.

I agree that Null Rod would be too good to cut, but on the other hand: Sacrament and Null Rod kind of attack the same decks. Combodecks and Tez..
Perhaps you could try making the deck more resilient to other decks: Fishdecks and MUD, as these decks appearantly are tough to deal with.

An idea would be to include more creatures to outmuscle Fish critters and try dogging the Stax players with raw power.

How is the splash been working for you? Because you can't get much better than Tarmogoyf if you want raw power.. You should try playing with them in the maindeck, and use the free slots to improve another bad match-up?

Just a thought..

I love the idea, and I would really love to play this deck.. My girlfriend's name is Marit, so yeah.. I'd definitely play this deck for the fun of it.

    Fish isn't that bad of a match up really, now MUD game 1 would be a bit hard to win, but its still not impossible. I would never cut Null Rod, without them, your deck becomes competely dependent on scarament to beat Tez. Null Rod simply slows down the game to give you a fighting chance to cast and resolve a sacrament. Plus if Timevault gets out then you lose if you don' have Null Rod, most likely.

[mmcgeach]

Thanks TLS, this deck looks great!  I've been testing a similar version, but with cabal therapy and bloodghast instead of thoughtseize and gatekeeper.  The cabal therapy-bloodghast combo can result in some card advantage and can help you push later-game threats through countermagic.  This is good against tezz (bloodghast itself is just really good against control) if you've neutered the tezz deck with a sadistic sacrament or a null rod; but even in this matchup it becomes clear that you want some amount of gatekeepers.  If I could find a build of this that reliably beat tezz I'd use it in my next tezz-heavy tournament.

this deck is great fun.  I hope others have fun with it.

[waywreth]

Using your deck as somewhat of a template, I tried a mono black version last night at a small Vintage event.  I went 1-2, although that's with a few caveats.
First off - all 3 rounds went 3 games.  In the 2nd round, one of my losses was to TPS that went off before I even had a turn, and in the 3rd round one of my losses was my Demonic Consultation for Yawg Will which would've won the game if it wasn't the last card in my library.  I think the deck is viable, and my try to add blue to it next week.

I managed two second turn kills, and one third turn kill - two with Dark Depths, one a scoop after casting a duress effect 5x, followed by Sacrament over the first few turns, with Null Rod out.


For reference, I ran the following:

Creatures
4 Dark Confidants
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Vampire Hexmage

Sorcery and Instants
4 Dark Ritual
4 Sadistic Sacrament
1 Vamp. tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tendrils of Agony  (forgot to remove this when I was testing)
3 Night's Whisper
1 Demonic Consultation

Artifacts
4 Null Rod
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Lotus Petal

Lands
3 Polluted Delta
3 Swamp getting fetchlands
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
6 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawmoth
2 Dark Depths

[jaeppel]

What about our long forgotten culling the weak?  This could get to be a real powerhouse in a "full of sacable creatures deck"  it seems like its more easily abuasable here than cabal rit, ie more likely to have an extra bear than to have threshhold.

Culling the weak also Really makes bloodghast look good.  Which actually is my second try to put sacrement with ghast.  Just for a counter example here is my brainstorm on the subject:

Engine: (14)
4     Confidant
4     Bloodghast
3     Skullclamp
3     Bazaar

Disruption: (12)
4     Thoughtsieze
3     Cabal Therapy
1     Darkblast
4     ???

Why we play this game: (5)
1   Yawgmoths Will
1    Demonic tutor
1    Vampiric tutor
1    Demonic consultation
1    Necropotence

Win cons: (7)
4    Sadistic Sacrement
3    Pyrexian Negator

Catch-all
1   Pernicious Deed

Acceleration: (14)
4     Dark Ritual
3     Culling the weak
2     Cabal Ritual
1     Black Lotus
1     Mox Jet
1     Mox Emerald
1     Lotus petal
1     Mana Crypt

Land: (11)
4     Verdant Catacombs
1     Dryad arbor
2     Bayou
1     Dakmor salvage
3     Swamps

Sideboard:
4   Leyline of the Void
2   Yxlid Jailer
2   Oxidize
2   Krosan Grip
1   Forest
1   Pernicious Deed
1   Darkblast
2   Gatekeeper of Malakir

I like negator along with the clamps, as running multiple clamps need a thick body to plug into.  This slot could be tarmogoyf, but really the point is to have a huge stick that just swings in the face of yard hate, and goyf just folds in the face of yard hate.  The drawback on negator is usually laughable if he is clamped.  It feels like a more efficient use of clamp to have a thick trampling body, so that the clamp actually gets to do damage.  goyf also doesnt have trample, and anyway green is just a splash.

The green splash is there mostly for sideboard options:  efficient methods of removing troubling permanents.  That and the busted verdant catcombs/dryad arbor combo, which is admitedly not quite as dramatic as the hexmage/dd combo, which i have left out in favor of the massive CA from clamp.  

Anyways, thats just a list off the top of my head.  ive yet to get this deck together, but im working on getting the pieces together.  I already have the set of sacrements though, they are still super-cheap.


Edit:  It seems that i made a blunder hastily sketching out a deck, and included both 3 skullclamp and 4 nullrod.  Obviously these two are incompatible.  atm, i cant think of anything to replace the rods, so i will leave the slot open.  Gatekeeper is my first thought, but maybe there is something much better for the space.  Removal of some kind needs to be there in any case, but thats all to the meta.

[tito del monte]

@Jaeppel: That's an interesting direction to take the deck in - but it actually seems to make some of the above comments regarding Bitter Ordeal pertinent - if you're going to be binning that many permanents, you'll be building up a tasty gravestormcount (though you miss the trick of first turn ritual + sacrament) - maybe something like a 3 Sacrament/2 Bitter Ordeal mix would work?

As a bit of a brain burp: one card that keeps popping into my head with the amount of confidants/welders out there is Plague Spitter. Maybe just a sideboard option, maybe just crap - but though I'd think it loud.

[BruiZar]

@Jaeppel: That's an interesting direction to take the deck in - but it actually seems to make some of the above comments regarding Bitter Ordeal pertinent - if you're going to be binning that many permanents, you'll be building up a tasty gravestormcount (though you miss the trick of first turn ritual + sacrament) - maybe something like a 3 Sacrament/2 Bitter Ordeal mix would work?

As a bit of a brain burp: one card that keeps popping into my head with the amount of confidants/welders out there is Plague Spitter. Maybe just a sideboard option, maybe just crap - but though I'd think it loud.

I've been thinking about Plague Spitter too, what a coincidence. Spitter kills Hierarch and Selkie too, which basically foils the entire deck.
It kills:
Cold-Eyed Selkie
Noble Hierarch
Goblin Welder
Goblin Lackey
Gorilla Shaman
Dark Confidant
Aven Mindcensor
Kataki, War's Wage
Vampire Hexmage, but you can sack it in response

It doesn't Kill:
Malakir, the Gatekeeper
Meddling Mage
Trinket Mage
Vexing Shusher
Qasali Pridemage
Ethersworn Canonist
Gaddock Teeg

Note: If you clamp or Therapy Spitter, you will remove the above list of creatures with 2 toughness

This leaves only tinker creatures and Mono brown creatures like Juggernaut, Triskelion, Painter's Servant and Sundering Titan alive

[the_lord_shaper]

   Here's an updated deck list after I played last weekend. I won that tourney by the way. I had no problem with any deck, with one expection, a R/W aggro deck with plainswalkers in it. I had to update the sideboard for Stax.

Creatures
4 Dark Confidants
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Vampire Hexmage

Sorcery and Instants
4 Dark Ritual
4 Sadistic Sacrament
1 Vamp. tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
1 Yawgmoth's Will
2 Night's Whisper
2 Cabal Rituals

Artifacts
3 Null Rod
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Lotus Petal

Lands
3 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
3 Bayou
3 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawmoth
2 Dark Depths

Sideboard:
2 Jailer
2 Ravenous trap
2 Jette
3 Tarmogofy
3 Korsan Grips
3 Oxidize

[Stormanimagus]

   Here's an updated deck list after I played last weekend. I won that tourney by the way. I had no problem with any deck, with one expection, a R/W aggro deck with plainswalkers in it. I had to update the sideboard for Stax.

Creatures
4 Dark Confidants
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Vampire Hexmage

Sorcery and Instants
4 Dark Ritual
4 Sadistic Sacrament
1 Vamp. tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
1 Yawgmoth's Will
2 Night's Whisper
2 Cabal Rituals

Artifacts
3 Null Rod
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Lotus Petal

Lands
3 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
3 Bayou
3 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawmoth
2 Dark Depths

Sideboard:
2 Jailer
2 Ravenous trap
2 Jette
3 Tarmogofy
3 Korsan Grips
3 Oxidize

Interesting list. I've been considering that Hexmage belongs in a more combo oriented deck that can protect itself a bit more easily. What do you think of this, more "fishy" approach to the hexmage combo?

You’ve Been Hexed!

Land (18):
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Dark Depths
1 Strip Mine
1 Wasteland

Artifacts (8):
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
3 Null Rod

Creatures (8):
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Hexmage

Instants (22):
3 Crop Rotation
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
4 Spell Pierce
4 Force Of Will
3 Stifle
3 Daze
1 Chain Of Vapor

Sorceries (4):
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Ponder
1 Life From The Loam

SB
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Trygon Predator
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Ravenous Trap

This was just sort of slapped together, but I think it has some promise and I'd like to start testing it a bit. Any tweaks you'd make?

-Storm

[Valorale]

Oath would be wise to have Akroma in the board, perfect answer to a 20/20 indestructible black flyer =p

[the_lord_shaper]

Interesting list. I've been considering that Hexmage belongs in a more combo oriented deck that can protect itself a bit more easily. What do you think of this, more "fishy" approach to the hexmage combo?

You’ve Been Hexed!

Land (18):
4 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Dark Depths
1 Strip Mine
1 Wasteland

Artifacts (8):
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
3 Null Rod

Creatures (8):
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampire Hexmage

Instants (22):
3 Crop Rotation
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
4 Spell Pierce
4 Force Of Will
3 Stifle
3 Daze
1 Chain Of Vapor

Sorceries (4):
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Ponder
1 Life From The Loam

SB
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Trygon Predator
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Ravenous Trap

This was just sort of slapped together, but I think it has some promise and I'd like to start testing it a bit. Any tweaks you'd make?

-Storm

    It seems alright overall. I would add duress and cut  the stifles and a spell Perice. If I was going to play this deck I would build it like BUG fish but cut the goyfs for the dark depths combo. Even with that being said, I'm not sure if a deck focused on the dark depths combo will work out in the end, but you never know. Let me know how it works out though.

[Dalamar]

Oath would be wise to have Akroma in the board, perfect answer to a 20/20 indestructible black flyer =p

Nah you just need to play 1 or 2 "rite of consumpution"

You can now win on the turn you play the Dark Depths as well.

[the_lord_shaper]

Oath would be wise to have Akroma in the board, perfect answer to a 20/20 indestructible black flyer =p

Nah you just need to play 1 or 2 "rite of consumpution"

You can now win on the turn you play the Dark Depths as well.

   You don't really need that either. 4 gatekeepers should become the sui-standard from here on out, and they kill Akroma.

[Dalamar]

Oath would be wise to have Akroma in the board, perfect answer to a 20/20 indestructible black flyer =p

Nah you just need to play 1 or 2 "rite of consumpution"

You can now win on the turn you play the Dark Depths as well.

   You don't really need that either. 4 gatekeepers should become the sui-standard from here on out, and they kill Akroma.

I just like the Idea of this opening hand

Dark depths
Dark ritual
Black Lotus
Rite of consumption
Vampire hexmage
duress / thoughtseize

or cabal Ritual and no duress play.

I've goldfished this opening hand 6 times out of 28 opening hands with this deck.

Creatures
4 Dark Confidants
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Vampire Hexmage

Sorcery and Instants
4 Dark Ritual
4 Sadistic Sacrament
1 Vamp. tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
1 Yawgmoth's Will
2 Night's Whisper
2 Cabal Ritual
2 Rite of Consumption

Artifacts
3 Null Rod
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Lotus Petal

Lands
3 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
3 Bayou
3 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawmoth
2 Dark Depths

Sideboard:
2 Jailer
2 Ravenous trap
2 Jitte
3 Tarmogofy
2 Korsan Grips
2 Oxidize
2 Pernicious Deed

[the_lord_shaper]

Oath would be wise to have Akroma in the board, perfect answer to a 20/20 indestructible black flyer =p

Nah you just need to play 1 or 2 "rite of consumpution"

You can now win on the turn you play the Dark Depths as well.

   You don't really need that either. 4 gatekeepers should become the sui-standard from here on out, and they kill Akroma.

I just like the Idea of this opening hand

Dark depths
Dark ritual
Black Lotus
Rite of consumption
Vampire hexmage
duress / thoughtseize

or cabal Ritual and no duress play.

I've goldfished this opening hand 6 times out of 28 opening hands with this deck.

Creatures
4 Dark Confidants
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Vampire Hexmage

Sorcery and Instants
4 Dark Ritual
4 Sadistic Sacrament
1 Vamp. tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
1 Yawgmoth's Will
2 Night's Whisper
2 Cabal Ritual
2 Rite of Consumption

Artifacts
3 Null Rod
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Lotus Petal

Lands
3 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
3 Bayou
3 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawmoth
2 Dark Depths

Sideboard:
2 Jailer
2 Ravenous trap
2 Jitte
3 Tarmogofy
2 Korsan Grips
2 Oxidize
2 Pernicious Deed

     That may be the case, your 6 god like hands, but here's the rub, what about all your hands that have rites and no piece of the combo. Also drawing rites when the combo is not out is a dead draw. It's simply not needed and takes up space in your deck with a card that is only relevant when two other cards have been played. Also I think the DD combo is neat but its not the focus of this deck. Sacrament is the core of this deck. I think the DD combo is side tracking people from what really makes this deck shine. Which is the 8 duress effects, sacraments, and a edict with legs. The DD combo has wow factor for sure, but the duress effects and sacraments are going to win you the most games.

[Dalamar]

Oh I completely agree with you, like I said I just like it, never said it was the smartest or best way to play 

On a side note you have a lot of 1 mana drops.  what would you say to dropping 2 duress for 2 hymns.  I think it could allow for more broken turn 1s

Black source
Rit
Duress/thoughtseize
Hymn

This is slightly less broken than first turn Sacrement, but god help them if they Force the Duress/Thoughtseize.

Just a thought.

[the_lord_shaper]

Oh I completely agree with you, like I said I just like it, never said it was the smartest or best way to play 

On a side note you have a lot of 1 mana drops.  what would you say to dropping 2 duress for 2 hymns.  I think it could allow for more broken turn 1s

Black source
Rit
Duress/thoughtseize
Hymn

This is slightly less broken than first turn Sacrement, but god help them if they Force the Duress/Thoughtseize.

Just a thought.

    I would still keep the 8 duress effects. Taking your opponents best card is almost always better then two at random. The only time I can think of a time when hymn is better is if you get extremely lucky and hit their mana sources. Plus the duress effects can let you resolve a turn one null rod/confidant with just a rit.

[Stormanimagus]

Oh I completely agree with you, like I said I just like it, never said it was the smartest or best way to play 

On a side note you have a lot of 1 mana drops.  what would you say to dropping 2 duress for 2 hymns.  I think it could allow for more broken turn 1s

Black source
Rit
Duress/thoughtseize
Hymn

This is slightly less broken than first turn Sacrement, but god help them if they Force the Duress/Thoughtseize.

Just a thought.

    I would still keep the 8 duress effects. Taking your opponents best card is almost always better then two at random. The only time I can think of a time when hymn is better is if you get extremely lucky and hit their mana sources. Plus the duress effects can let you resolve a turn one null rod/confidant with just a rit.

You see, I totally agree with this assessment and the only reason I was even considering the hexmage combo was because I thought the deck lacked a finisher, and NOT because I wanted a combo finish. That's why I tried to design a totally different deck around it. Not because I think it belongs in ANY deck right now, but only that IF it did I'd rather have that deck be focused on playing and protecting the combo. If we assume that the core of a good Sui-Black deck is:

4 Dark Ritual (Obvious)

4 Dark Confidant (Best card draw black can hope for ATM)

4 Duress (The lack of life-loss is actually pretty relevant but Thoughtseize is probably also playable in this slot)

4 Cabal Therapy (Simply unreal if you run at least 8 creatures. Good sac outlet for a Confidant about to kill you)

2-4 Gatekeeper Of Malakir with 0-2 more in the SB (This guy is pretty awesome and allows you to not waste a dead slot on an edict effect as he can also just be a 2/2 bear for 2 if you have no other use for him)

4 Sadistic Sacrament (The heart and soul of what makes this deck competitive again IMHO)

3-4 Null Rod (A necessary evil in slowing the game down to a manageable pace)

4 Wasteland (non-basics are running pretty rampant right now and Bazaar is an important card to have an answer to)

1 Strip Mine (Mana denial is important right now)

5-6 Black Fetch (This is important in thinning your deck so you draw gas. I think 6 may be the right number)

5-6 Swamp (If you splash then you'll need for at least 2 or 3 of these to be the appropriate Dual land. Probably going to be either Bayou or Underground Sea x2 or x3)

1 Black Lotus (Best Mana Accel around)

1 Mox Jet (Another solid form of consistent Mana accel)

After these includes we are up to 42-47 MD cards. Now, here's where we hit a big question. We need a finisher, but what finisher do we choose? What finisher would best serve this shell?

1. We could go the Tendrils Route in which case the following now become far more necessary:

1 Yawgmoth's Will
1-3 Tendrils Of Agony
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor

and, in a blue splash that tries to best abuse Will and card draw we'd include,

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Time Walk

That brings us 8-10 more cards. To fill out the 60 we now need 3-10 more cards. With Tendrils as a Kill it'd probably make sense to have some of those cards be Cabal Ritual. I'd say x3. It also makes sense to have some number of Night's Whisper to best abuse Will. I'd say x3 there as well. That probably brings us to our 60 right there if the other numbers are almost all maxed out.

So that's one option.

2. The fatties route. As I see it, here are the possible fatty finishers that could be employed:

a. Phyrexian Negator
b. Tarmogoyf
c. Ob Nixilis, The Fallen
d. Nyxathid
e. Tombstalker (not so good with Confidant though so probably a no-go)
f. Any I forgot ????

This would work but I'd probably want to support this slower kill with extra disruption in the form of 3-4 Hymn To Tourach (especially necessary with Nyxathid as your finisher) and probably a couple extra lands if I elect to try Ob Nixilis, The Fallen. If we were at 47 cards and add 8 to that (4 Finishers and 4 disruptive cards) That brings us to 55 cards and then we have 5 free slots to mess with. This approach opens up a bit more room for that 4-of, consistency in deck-building and is an attractive idea to. Under this sort of build I'm not sure that Yawgmoth's Will would be needed.

Side Note: I didn't include Necropotence in the auto-include, at the top because I think it may not work terribly well in every build. It is a powerful draw spell and may still be warranted in non-tendrils builds, but I'm not 100% on that one at the moment.

3. Combo Kill with Vampire Hexmage + Dark Depths — The problem I have with this combo is the amount of slots it takes up and the ease with which an opponent can disrupt it. Not really high on my awesome-o-meter.

Anyway, I hope this helps you to understand how I'm trying to build this deck from the ground up and where I'm still stuck on optimal card choices. I'd appreciate any and all criticism and welcome any debate on this you might want Lord_shaper.

peace,

-Storm

[reaperbong]

with so many good, cheap Black cards to send to the graveyard Tombstalker is my favorite fatty, so i've been testing 4 Night's Whispers instead of 4 Dark Confidants. this might sound crazy but it's working great that i'm able to more control the damage taken (and my 4 Confidants are still putting in good work with Tezzeret). Even without Tombstalker i was getting killed by Dark Confidant and have found him to be too slow. Night's Whisper let's you know exactly how much damage you will take and you get the cards 3 turns before Dark Confidant.

because i like more to go to the graveyard i'm also running Edicts over Gatekeeper. just look at this package going to the yard, it allows 2nd and 3rd turn Tombstalkers + a Duress for counter protection quite easily:

4 Rituals
4 Night's Whisper
8 Duress/Seize + 1 Mind Twist
5 Strips
4 Sadistic Sacrament
2 Diabolic Edicts
2-3 Tutors + Consultation
Black Lotus+Lotus Petal
4-6 Fetches
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Cabal Ritual

IMO Tombstalker is the best fattie to work around, it can be super fast on the board with virtually no drawbacks and it's flying so really hard to chump block.

[the_lord_shaper]

    I agree with you Stormanimagus, about the DD combo. Probble overall gofys are the consistent and possibly best big creature for this deck. But Storm, don't forget that Hexmage is not useless by itself. it can kill a Tezz as it comes into play, and its first strike abiblity is very good versus the aggro match. The best reason actually to run the Hx mage combo is agaist control decks actually. If they find out that you have the DD combo, they with counter every hexmage. In this regard you can use Hexmage as a red herring and let all you other spells resolve. This has happened a few times last week win I played the deck. I had my Hexmage drained few times, which let me cast a rit into sacrament without a problem.