[Free Article] NYSE III: Tournament Report

[voltron00x]

In this week's article, I recap my day in New York at the NYSE III tournament.  This was a pretty successful first run for me with Oath, post-Zendikar, as I split in the finals of a 53-person tournament with my teammate, Jeff Folinus:

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/18200_The_Long_Winding_Road_NYSE_III_Tournament_Report.html

If you're playing Oath, or thinking about giving it a shot, you can pick up some tips for the mirror...

[nataz]

in your top 8 oath mirror match, why did you leave three oaths in? You know that is his only way to win, so mind as well dump yours for extra sideboard goodies. You still run MD key + vault for when you want to apply pressure, and you leave in some of your creatures to activate off his oath. With the extra space you can bring in more gy hate and that extra REB.

[vroman]

you are insane if you think anyone would ever thoughtseize Iona.
irrelevant, timetwister and regrowth both in the deck. also having Iona in hand is frequently a Good Thing, bc can proceed directly to combo turn early, albeit w less protection.

[voltron00x]

you are insane if you think anyone would ever thoughtseize Iona.
irrelevant, timetwister and regrowth both in the deck. also having Iona in hand is frequently a Good Thing, bc can proceed directly to combo turn early, albeit w less protection.

I disagree - it doesn't matter if its the optimal play, its still a play that could occur, and if Iona gets Exiled or you have to jump through extra hoops to execute your plan, those extra turns could easily result in losing the game.  Similarly a simple Relic or Tormod's Crypt crushes you if Iona is in your graveyard.  Infinite turns doesn't do much for you when you have no win condition.  I'd probably move the Tezz main, at least.  Your list isn't even running Krosan Grip in the 75 to have outs for these types of scenarios.  Look at this SB you're advocating:

2 mindbreak trap
1 trinisphere
1 extirpate
1 tormod's crypt
1 ravenous trap
1 pernicious deed
1 balance
1 slaughter pact
1 oxidize
1 tezzeret the seeker
1 hellkite
1 akroma
1 strip mine
1 echoing truth

What's your plan against Ichorid? 1 Strip, 1 E. Truth, 1 Extirpate, 1 Tormod's, 1 Trap?  Are you bringing in Balance and Deed?  I honestly don't think that's going to get you there against any competent Fatestitcher Ichorid player.  What about against good Workshop decks?  People are packing MD Chalice of the Void around here... your list has ONE Oxidize to break out of Chalice on 2, and G1 if they resolve it, you just... lose.  I mean, really?  I'm glad the list is doing well for you, but I just don't think its as good as everyone else... my list is geared to beat the Tezz match-up, with significantly more ammo post-SB against Workshops than your list, b/c around me, the good players all play Tezz and Shops.  REBs, Ancient Grudge - these are real cards with flexibility against the field.  You need to monkey around with Reclaim and junk like that... its not going to get you there when you face real competition.  IMO the best thing about your list is the Pernicious Deeds, but even those are sketchy b/c you're going to be blown out by Stifles from Noble Fish.  Again, your plan against Trygon Predator is basically "pretend its not a card".  I just think there are a number of poor design decisions you're espousing that are going to be exposed when people try to play this deck in tournaments with more than 20 people (and where there are people that are actually going to play out matches and not scoop for gas money).

in your top 8 oath mirror match, why did you leave three oaths in? You know that is his only way to win, so mind as well dump yours for extra sideboard goodies. You still run MD key + vault for when you want to apply pressure, and you leave in some of your creatures to activate off his oath. With the extra space you can bring in more gy hate and that extra REB.

Because I don't like the idea of having to solely rely on my opponent's Oath to win.  I definitely will cut one for extra space, but I still want to be able to find and resolve mine if I'm ahead.  Its a plan that's worked pretty well for me... I'm 5-1-1 in mirror matches since June.  I don't want to be in a situation where I'm ahead on Orchards but have no Oath to resolve, to give my opponent time to dig for Orchards and rebalance the game state.

[Killane]

you are insane if you think anyone would ever thoughtseize Iona.
irrelevant, timetwister and regrowth both in the deck. also having Iona in hand is frequently a Good Thing, bc can proceed directly to combo turn early, albeit w less protection.

I disagree - it doesn't matter if its the optimal play, its still a play that could occur, and if Iona gets Exiled or you have to jump through extra hoops to execute your plan, those extra turns could easily result in losing the game.  Similarly a simple Relic or Tormod's Crypt crushes you if Iona is in your graveyard.  Infinite turns doesn't do much for you when you have no win condition.  I'd probably move the Tezz main, at least.  Your list isn't even running Krosan Grip in the 75 to have outs for these types of scenarios.  Look at this SB you're advocating:

2 mindbreak trap
1 trinisphere
1 extirpate
1 tormod's crypt
1 ravenous trap
1 pernicious deed
1 balance
1 slaughter pact
1 oxidize
1 tezzeret the seeker
1 hellkite
1 akroma
1 strip mine
1 echoing truth

What's your plan against Ichorid? 1 Strip, 1 E. Truth, 1 Extirpate, 1 Tormod's, 1 Trap?  Are you bringing in Balance and Deed?  I honestly don't think that's going to get you there against any competent Fatestitcher Ichorid player.  What about against good Workshop decks?  People are packing MD Chalice of the Void around here... your list has ONE Oxidize to break out of Chalice on 2, and G1 if they resolve it, you just... lose.  I mean, really?  I'm glad the list is doing well for you, but I just don't think its as good as everyone else... my list is geared to beat the Tezz match-up, with significantly more ammo post-SB against Workshops than your list, b/c around me, the good players all play Tezz and Shops.  REBs, Ancient Grudge - these are real cards with flexibility against the field.  You need to monkey around with Reclaim and junk like that... its not going to get you there when you face real competition.  IMO the best thing about your list is the Pernicious Deeds, but even those are sketchy b/c you're going to be blown out by Stifles from Noble Fish.  Again, your plan against Trygon Predator is basically "pretend its not a card".  I just think there are a number of poor design decisions you're espousing that are going to be exposed when people try to play this deck in tournaments with more than 20 people (and where there are people that are actually going to play out matches and not scoop for gas money).

Congrats on the win/split.

Alot of your comments here make good sense.  How would you build Reclaimation Oath? Obviously you take the stand that including Hellkites main is the better way to go (otherwise you wouldn't run it that way), but how often do you run into the issue of passing the turn and the opponent "just winning" after Oathing up a Dragon? the thing I like about Reclaimation Oath is that it pretty much eliminates that possibility - short of the opponent actually having Key/Vault or tutors in hand AND you having no countermagic (since you've shut all of theirs off) once you Oath, you win.

My meta has a decent showing of Storm Combo and Ichorid as well as some Tezz (not as much as one would expect for a powered meta- for some reason even people who actually own power around here don;t always have a set of Drains), so passing the turn is even more of a concern.

Here is my current list, for reference:

Land (16):
4 Forbidden Orchard
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Artifacts (10):
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
5 Moxen
1 Voltaic Key
1 Time Vault
1 Sensei’s Divining Top

Creatures (1):
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

Enchantments (4):
4 Oath Of Druids

Instants (20):
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Lim-Dul's vault
1 Gift’s Ungiven
1 Reclaim

4 Spell Pierce
4 Force Of Will
1 Krosan Reclaimation
1 Wipe Away
1 Rebuild

Sorceries (10):
4 Thoughtseize
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Timetwister
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Ponder
1 Regrowth
1 Time Walk
1 Merchant Scroll
 
Sideboard

1 Karrthus, Tyrant Of Jund
1 Empyrial Archangel
2 Hellkite Overlord
3 Extirpate
2 Oxidize
4 Leyline Of The Void
1 Krosan Grip
1 Trinisphere


Reclaim is included simply because a Gifts pile of Regrowth/Rebuild/Key/Vault guarantees both halves of the combo outside of yard hate. (you could also do R/R/Oath/Orchard, but I'd usually rather include DT or VT in that pile as it makes it a more difficult choice for the opponent - what if you already have one half of the combo in hand?).

I have found it is often useful to board into a plan featuring Dragons for game two to get around Yard hate. It can defeat the oppoenent's boarding efforts and leave them with a dillema for game 3 as to how to prepare.

What do you think?

[GrandpaBelcher]

Game 1: Brandon is on the play, and we both take a mulligan to six. He leads off with a Mox Pearl and a Forest, and plays Voltaic Key. I’m trying to figure out what deck might lead out with a basic Forest, and I’m guessing that Brandon’s light on mana. I draw for the turn, play a Mox Pearl of my own, cast Top, and then Strip Mine Brandon’s Forest. Brandon plays a Forbidden Orchard and then casts Oath of Druids. This is not a good thing for me. I Top on Upkeep and play an Orchard from my hand, but the double Oaths in my hand are now total blanks, while Brandon has counter spells and tutors; he is able to find another Orchard, and then trigger Oath into Iona. He is playing Mana Drains, so I assume he was running Vroman’s combo Oath.

Any thought here to writing this game off as a loss, holding onto the Orchard in your hand (thereby not tipping your deck choice), and hoping he sideboards incorrectly?  Strip Mine, Mox Pearl, and Top aren't really indicative of anything and might get him to think of some mana denial strategy or some Drain variant that got stuck on mana.  This might be less effective for you than for J. Random Vintageplayer since you have a reputation for playing Oath, but it was the strategy that immediately came to my mind.

[voltron00x]

Rebuild is probably better than Wipe Away at this point.  I may make that switch the next time around.

I think my problem is that I fundamentally disagree with the idea that Vroman's Oath list is anything remotely close to a functional Tezz list in terms of executing Key/Vault without using Oath.  It has far less tutors, less explosive mana, and no draw engine, the last of these being far and away the most signficant. Oath's biggest problem is that once it gets behind, its very difficult to "catch up" because even if you resolve Oath you need another turn to activate it before anything actually happens.  Because it has no draw engine, Oath can easily be out-drawn by a deck like Tezz, or disrupted one-for-one by a deck like Noble Fish.  You have no draw engine to off-set the card loss from Vamp, Mystical, LDV, and so on.  I'm at least attempting to address this by playing cards like Ancient Grudge and TFK; similarly Will is usually played to "get ahead" by recurring A. Recall and DT (although I've won plenty of games by having it in hand and Oathing once).

The list I'm playing has a strong G2/3 against Ichorid.  I have, minimum, 9 cards to bring in:  4 Leyline, 1 Crypt, 2 Trap (and I suggest switching 1 Trap to a Needle as it can help in other match-ups), PLUS  the 2 REBs (to counter Chain of Vapor on Leyline).  Depending on the list you're up against, Firespout is a reasonable inclusion also.  When I played Fatestitcher Ichorid against Oath, one of two things happened:

1 - Oath drew a hate card or cards, and had time to Oath, and won. 

2 - Oath didn't draw hate, or had only one piece that Ichorid played around, and got smashed before getting Oath active.

Against Ichorid, the idea that you're going to Oath into Iona and lock up the game is silly.  If you name Blue, you're not stopping them from comboing you out.  If you name Black, they can Chain of Vapor the Iona and proceed with winning.  You need to bring in 6-8 pieces of hate to beat Ichorid, just like every other deck.  My list can even bring in Firespout as insurance (for game states where you draw the hate after they've established a board presence).

Vroman's list is Oath impersonating the best "big blue" deck in Vintage, in Tezz, without its ability to draw extra cards and with less fast mana.  Oath can beat Tezz by two-for-ones on its mana artifacts (Grudge) and having extra ability to counter its big spells like Gifts and FoF (REB, Spell Pierce).  Impersonating a deck that does something better than you, while relying on the graveyard, something Tezz can already hate against, is not a good plan IMO.

My list is admittedly soft against TPS, but that can be addressed easily with the SB - the problem is that I've played against TPS twice in my last, I dunno, 25 matches?  It hasn't been enough of a presence for me to dedicate much against it - but if I was concerned, I would use Mindbreak Trap and/or Chalice of the Void to shore up that match-up.  I was more concerned about Fish in NYC, thus the Firespouts (which hit Trygon Predator - ditto REB).

Regarding Oathing and still losing, the only deck where I fear that possiblity is TPS - and in g2/g3 situations, I'll have a 50% chance of Oathing into Iona (slightly higher if you include the ability to LDV or Vamp or Brainstorm Iona on top of the library in response to the Oath trigger).  I haven't been losing to Tezz in that situation - again, post-SB having 2 Grudges gives you considerable protection against Key/Vault after Oathing once.  Bringing in a Grip, REBs, and Grudge will go a long way to securing that match-up.  I don't ever recall losing to Tezz after getting Oath active with this list, in 25+ games. 

[Prospero]

Matt, congrats again on the win/split, great article.  

Oath is definitely a major player in the area, Zendikar seems to have done wonders for the deck.  The NY/NJ/PA metagame is going to have to adapt.  I like Vroman's Oath list quite a bit, but no one played it at N.Y.S.E. III.  I'm interested to see if that changes for the future events.  Either way, I think Spell Pierce should probably be a 4 of.

I'd also like to invite anyone reading this report in the area to take a trip to the next N.Y.S.E. event.  Attendance has been steadily climbing and the competition has gotten better and better.  I'm doing my best to create an active Vintage community/tournament scene in New York, anyone who wants to join in should...

[voltron00x]

Game 1: Brandon is on the play, and we both take a mulligan to six. He leads off with a Mox Pearl and a Forest, and plays Voltaic Key. I’m trying to figure out what deck might lead out with a basic Forest, and I’m guessing that Brandon’s light on mana. I draw for the turn, play a Mox Pearl of my own, cast Top, and then Strip Mine Brandon’s Forest. Brandon plays a Forbidden Orchard and then casts Oath of Druids. This is not a good thing for me. I Top on Upkeep and play an Orchard from my hand, but the double Oaths in my hand are now total blanks, while Brandon has counter spells and tutors; he is able to find another Orchard, and then trigger Oath into Iona. He is playing Mana Drains, so I assume he was running Vroman’s combo Oath.

Any thought here to writing this game off as a loss, holding onto the Orchard in your hand (thereby not tipping your deck choice), and hoping he sideboards incorrectly?  Strip Mine, Mox Pearl, and Top aren't really indicative of anything and might get him to think of some mana denial strategy or some Drain variant that got stuck on mana.  This might be less effective for you than for J. Random Vintageplayer since you have a reputation for playing Oath, but it was the strategy that immediately came to my mind.

I understand the line of thinking, but I wouldn't have scooped in that situation on turn 2.  We were even on Orchards and I had a Top in play, so the game was far from over, I just saw too much junk on top of my library.   Having the 2 dead Oaths in my hand and not finding Brainstorm or TFK to get rid of them cost me.

Its also tough for me, you're right - people assume I'm on Oath.  That's why I have to throw an Ichorid or Elves in there from time to time.  From playing Ichorid once, people put me on Ichorid for the next 3-4 tournaments...

[voltron00x]

Matt, congrats again on the win/split, great article.  

Oath is definitely a major player in the area, Zendikar seems to have done wonders for the deck.  The NY/NJ/PA metagame is going to have to adapt.  I like Vroman's Oath list quite a bit, but no one played it at N.Y.S.E. III.  I'm interested to see if that changes for the future events.  Either way, I think Spell Pierce should probably be a 4 of.

I'd also like to invite anyone reading this report in the area to take a trip to the next N.Y.S.E. event.  Attendance has been steadily climbing and the competition has gotten better and better.  I'm doing my best to create an active Vintage community/tournament scene in New York, anyone who wants to join in should...

Nick, I was remiss in not doing a better job in saying what an excellent tournament this was.  I really like the venue - two clean bathrooms in a game store!! - and just like last time, the rounds were run cleanly and quickly.  The fact that the TO report was up so quickly is also awesome.  Thanks for running these, having a well-run Vintage event in NY should be a huge boon for the format.

I actually think 2-3 is the optimal number for Spell Pierce.  Its a poor top-deck in the late-game, something Oath already has too many of.  I do really like the fact that they can counter early fast mana - that's a play that's come up quite a bit and turns the Pierce into a Stone Rain for U, which is pretty good, and hitting a mana Crypt or Sol Ring does wonders as far as making Tezz play fair.  The extra protection against Chalice on 2 or to counter Thorn / Sphere in the early game is also very good.

[Gekoratel]

Regarding Oathing and still losing, the only deck where I fear that possibility is TPS - and in g2/g3 situations, I'll have a 50% chance of Oathing into Iona (slightly higher if you include the ability to LDV or Vamp or Brainstorm Iona on top of the library in response to the Oath trigger).

I saw this comment and was a little bit confused, did you mention somewhere in the article cutting down to only two creatures because with three in the list posted should be 33% + BS,Ponder,LDV etc.  And on that topic do you think that 3 creatures is still they way to go in your list or that increasing the probability hitting Iona on the first Oath activation warrants cutting down to 2 creatures.  Also I thought the article was good.

[Killane]

Rebuild is probably better than Wipe Away at this point.  I may make that switch the next time around.

I think my problem is that I fundamentally disagree with the idea that Vroman's Oath list is anything remotely close to a functional Tezz list in terms of executing Key/Vault without using Oath.  It has far less tutors, less explosive mana, and no draw engine, the last of these being far and away the most signficant. Oath's biggest problem is that once it gets behind, its very difficult to "catch up" because even if you resolve Oath you need another turn to activate it before anything actually happens.  Because it has no draw engine, Oath can easily be out-drawn by a deck like Tezz, or disrupted one-for-one by a deck like Noble Fish.  You have no draw engine to off-set the card loss from Vamp, Mystical, LDV, and so on.  I'm at least attempting to address this by playing cards like Ancient Grudge and TFK; similarly Will is usually played to "get ahead" by recurring A. Recall and DT (although I've won plenty of games by having it in hand and Oathing once).

The list I'm playing has a strong G2/3 against Ichorid.  I have, minimum, 9 cards to bring in:  4 Leyline, 1 Crypt, 2 Trap (and I suggest switching 1 Trap to a Needle as it can help in other match-ups), PLUS  the 2 REBs (to counter Chain of Vapor on Leyline).  Depending on the list you're up against, Firespout is a reasonable inclusion also.  When I played Fatestitcher Ichorid against Oath, one of two things happened:

1 - Oath drew a hate card or cards, and had time to Oath, and won. 

2 - Oath didn't draw hate, or had only one piece that Ichorid played around, and got smashed before getting Oath active.

Against Ichorid, the idea that you're going to Oath into Iona and lock up the game is silly.  If you name Blue, you're not stopping them from comboing you out.  If you name Black, they can Chain of Vapor the Iona and proceed with winning.  You need to bring in 6-8 pieces of hate to beat Ichorid, just like every other deck.  My list can even bring in Firespout as insurance (for game states where you draw the hate after they've established a board presence).

Vroman's list is Oath impersonating the best "big blue" deck in Vintage, in Tezz, without its ability to draw extra cards and with less fast mana.  Oath can beat Tezz by two-for-ones on its mana artifacts (Grudge) and having extra ability to counter its big spells like Gifts and FoF (REB, Spell Pierce).  Impersonating a deck that does something better than you, while relying on the graveyard, something Tezz can already hate against, is not a good plan IMO.

My list is admittedly soft against TPS, but that can be addressed easily with the SB - the problem is that I've played against TPS twice in my last, I dunno, 25 matches?  It hasn't been enough of a presence for me to dedicate much against it - but if I was concerned, I would use Mindbreak Trap and/or Chalice of the Void to shore up that match-up.  I was more concerned about Fish in NYC, thus the Firespouts (which hit Trygon Predator - ditto REB).

Regarding Oathing and still losing, the only deck where I fear that possiblity is TPS - and in g2/g3 situations, I'll have a 50% chance of Oathing into Iona (slightly higher if you include the ability to LDV or Vamp or Brainstorm Iona on top of the library in response to the Oath trigger).  I haven't been losing to Tezz in that situation - again, post-SB having 2 Grudges gives you considerable protection against Key/Vault after Oathing once.  Bringing in a Grip, REBs, and Grudge will go a long way to securing that match-up.  I don't ever recall losing to Tezz after getting Oath active with this list, in 25+ games. 

In the games I've gotten in, rebuild has been a superstar. I woudl highly recommend, especially given that you face alot of shops.

You're right about Vroman's list being worse than Tezz at getting Key/Vault without Oathing. The thing is, your Oath list is not as good at getting Key/Vault without Oathing as Tezz either, so the question becomes, which makes optimal use of Oath in such a match-up. Both decks have a great strategy (your results obvously speak for themselves here if after 25+ matches Tezz has not won post Oath). The thing is, Tezz can't win against Vroman style lists post-Oath either, as Iona shuts them down, leaving them a tiny core of spells with no coutner back-up, and then Reclaimation Oath wins either that same turn or the following turn depending on hand count.

The ncie thing about RecOath is that in some ways it uses Oath as a draw engine to get to Vault. It has the back-up plan of resolving Vault/Key without Oath, but the primary tactic vs Tezz is still to get Oath up and running. If an Oath trigger resolves, both lists should have a hard time loosing to Tezz.

So, what better in Other matches? Keep in mind here that I am not considering his SB as optimal, as I agree without a doubt that there is a much better way to build the SB.

Game 1 vs Shops- your build wins. this needs no explanations IMHO. Game 2? This depends on the board.

Game 1 vs Dredge - RecOath can win on the Oath turn, gtd wins the turn after, and does shut off either black or blue (whcih yes does not lock them out completely but still is more disruptive on the one turn they get than a Dragon is) if you have to pass the turn. Vroman's SB does leave much to be desired in this matchup, but with some changes I think RecOath has a better chace of winning game 1.

Game 1 vs. TPS- RecOath has a way more disruptive 1st Oath target 50% of the time, and can win the same turn as Oathing.

Game 1 vs. Fish- ?? I don't know any decent Fish players and haven't had time for a tournament since Zen started. I've never played Fish myself (I own no Goyfs or Bobs), so I can't really evaluate this one.

At the end of the day, I think both builds are valid options. In you shop-heavy meta with little TPS, it seems your build is correct. In my Storm heavy meta with fewer (though admittedly good) shops, I think RecOath has the edge.

I'd love to see a "grudge match". You vs Vroman. who will win???? (insert random good fight music here).

My build of RecOath has a much more focused sideboard. Vs Ichorid, 4 Leyline and 3 Extirpate. Vs Storm, 3 Extirpate (since 'pating a ritual often equals GG) and 1 Trinisphere (whcih makes it almost impossible for them to win). The mirror? leylines vs RecOath plus the K-Grip. Shops? The dragon plan 9all 3) plus 2 Oxidize and a Grip.

I'm going to cut a Spell Pierce for an Ancient Grudge (down to 3 pierces), You're arguement against 4 pierces makes huge sense to me, and I was looking for a maindeck spot for Grudge.

Regarding TPS- what about a Trinisphere in the board? All you need to win through it is 3 mana- they need to find a bounce spell right away, and since their mana base is much lighter this should give them huge amounts of headaches.

[voltron00x]

Regarding Oathing and still losing, the only deck where I fear that possibility is TPS - and in g2/g3 situations, I'll have a 50% chance of Oathing into Iona (slightly higher if you include the ability to LDV or Vamp or Brainstorm Iona on top of the library in response to the Oath trigger).

I saw this comment and was a little bit confused, did you mention somewhere in the article cutting down to only two creatures because with three in the list posted should be 33% + BS,Ponder,LDV etc.  And on that topic do you think that 3 creatures is still they way to go in your list or that increasing the probability hitting Iona on the first Oath activation warrants cutting down to 2 creatures.  Also I thought the article was good.

Jeff, correct I SB out 1 Hellkite vs TPS and Tezz.  I think going down to less than 2 hasted creatures effectively cedes G1 to Workshop decks, and I'm not willing to do that.  You also have random people running around playing Sui Black or R/G/b Beats (such as Max and Glackin) and they pack Diabolic Edict. 

[voltron00x]

In the games I've gotten in, rebuild has been a superstar. I woudl highly recommend, especially given that you face alot of shops.

You're right about Vroman's list being worse than Tezz at getting Key/Vault without Oathing. The thing is, your Oath list is not as good at getting Key/Vault without Oathing as Tezz either, so the question becomes, which makes optimal use of Oath in such a match-up. Both decks have a great strategy (your results obvously speak for themselves here if after 25+ matches Tezz has not won post Oath). The thing is, Tezz can't win against Vroman style lists post-Oath either, as Iona shuts them down, leaving them a tiny core of spells with no coutner back-up, and then Reclaimation Oath wins either that same turn or the following turn depending on hand count.

The ncie thing about RecOath is that in some ways it uses Oath as a draw engine to get to Vault. It has the back-up plan of resolving Vault/Key without Oath, but the primary tactic vs Tezz is still to get Oath up and running. If an Oath trigger resolves, both lists should have a hard time loosing to Tezz.

So, what better in Other matches? Keep in mind here that I am not considering his SB as optimal, as I agree without a doubt that there is a much better way to build the SB.

Game 1 vs Shops- your build wins. this needs no explanations IMHO. Game 2? This depends on the board.

Game 1 vs Dredge - RecOath can win on the Oath turn, gtd wins the turn after, and does shut off either black or blue (whcih yes does not lock them out completely but still is more disruptive on the one turn they get than a Dragon is) if you have to pass the turn. Vroman's SB does leave much to be desired in this matchup, but with some changes I think RecOath has a better chace of winning game 1.

Game 1 vs. TPS- RecOath has a way more disruptive 1st Oath target 50% of the time, and can win the same turn as Oathing.

Game 1 vs. Fish- ?? I don't know any decent Fish players and haven't had time for a tournament since Zen started. I've never played Fish myself (I own no Goyfs or Bobs), so I can't really evaluate this one.

At the end of the day, I think both builds are valid options. In you shop-heavy meta with little TPS, it seems your build is correct. In my Storm heavy meta with fewer (though admittedly good) shops, I think RecOath has the edge.

I'd love to see a "grudge match". You vs Vroman. who will win???? (insert random good fight music here).

My build of RecOath has a much more focused sideboard. Vs Ichorid, 4 Leyline and 3 Extirpate. Vs Storm, 3 Extirpate (since 'pating a ritual often equals GG) and 1 Trinisphere (whcih makes it almost impossible for them to win). The mirror? leylines vs RecOath plus the K-Grip. Shops? The dragon plan 9all 3) plus 2 Oxidize and a Grip.

I'm going to cut a Spell Pierce for an Ancient Grudge (down to 3 pierces), You're arguement against 4 pierces makes huge sense to me, and I was looking for a maindeck spot for Grudge.

Regarding TPS- what about a Trinisphere in the board? All you need to win through it is 3 mana- they need to find a bounce spell right away, and since their mana base is much lighter this should give them huge amounts of headaches.

I don't think either deck has much of a shot vs Ichorid G1.  The only way either list should win would be T1 Mox, Orchard, Oath on the play, or having a Waste / Strip available immediately to destroy a Bazaar and forcing Ichorid to slow-Dredge.  Keep in mind that Oathing into Iona doesn't end the game at all!  It just means that Ichorid can't play Dread Return, Unmask, or Cabal Therapy.  They can still have Chalice out on 0 to disrupt Yawg Will, and if Ichorid is able to Bazaar unmolested with a Chalice out, it can easily race Iona with Ichorids and the resulting Bridge tokens. 

I actually think my list is much better at finding Key / Vault.  I have 4 Impulse - that makes a huge difference!

Vroman's list as I saw it is also soft against a resolved Null Rod from a Fish or Aggro deck.  I'm still able to Oath into 3 huge flying creatures and race, so I'd take my build G1.  It also depends on the type of Fish we're talking about... Noble Fish can be a tough match-up no matter what.

[MirariKnight]

As a side note the plan against Ichorid is actually pretty strong in the Reclamation build. We tested it a lot and you just board out all the creatures so you get vault/key the turn you Oath, then win with Tezz eventually. Varying the hate with 1 of's is a lot harder for dredge to answer than Leylines which I'm sure you know. I'd just rather win the turn I oath against them then try to swing in with the Dragon or whatever.

[voltron00x]

As a side note the plan against Ichorid is actually pretty strong in the Reclamation build. We tested it a lot and you just board out all the creatures so you get vault/key the turn you Oath, then win with Tezz eventually. Varying the hate with 1 of's is a lot harder for dredge to answer than Leylines which I'm sure you know. I'd just rather win the turn I oath against them then try to swing in with the Dragon or whatever.

My hate IS varied... what I advocated for next time was 4 Leyline, 1 Trap, 1 Tormod's, 1 Needle with REBs and FOW to protect the Leylines (which also happen to be good against a variety of other decks outside of Ichorid, such as Dragon and SCV), and Firespouts against the mana and FOWchorid versions.

[credmond]

Keep in mind that you can build Iona oath with impulses in place of some of the "big blue" cards in Vroman's list.

I found Vroman's list to be problematic in my testing in the sense that it can perform like a weak Tezz list as you rightly point out. Modifying the list with impulses and LDV works really well. In fact your list and Vroman's list can be brought pretty close together.

The big question is whether its more optimal to run Iona alone game 1 (with Tezz as backup when Iona is rfg or in hand) and combo out or to use 3 creatures and slam with aggro. Iona is really good when she hits and it generally requires that the opponent has a non-main color answer in hand for them to escape a timely defeat.

With your sideboard you can play serious mind games with your opponent. Graveyard hate and mana denial works effectively against you when you only have Iona, but you have the option of bringing in 2 or more creatures for the graveyard independent and mana light oath kill.

Also, it should be pointed out that Timetwister is really good against Ichorid.

[voltron00x]

Keep in mind that you can build Iona oath with impulses in place of some of the "big blue" cards in Vroman's list.

I found Vroman's list to be problematic in my testing in the sense that it can perform like a weak Tezz list as you rightly point out. Modifying the list with impulses and LDV works really well. In fact your list and Vroman's list can be brought pretty close together.

The big question is whether its more optimal to run Iona alone game 1 (with Tezz as backup when Iona is rfg or in hand) and combo out or to use 3 creatures and slam with aggro. Iona is really good when she hits and it generally requires that the opponent has a non-main color answer in hand for them to escape a timely defeat.

With your sideboard you can play serious mind games with your opponent. Graveyard hate and mana denial works effectively against you when you only have Iona, but you have the option of bringing in 2 or more creatures for the graveyard independent and mana light oath kill.

Also, it should be pointed out that Timetwister is really good against Ichorid.

This is entirely correct.  IMO, the choice of whether or not you're running additional creatures MD is a metagame decisions and shouldn't be considered an absolute one way or the other.  If I expected more than, say, 66% Tezz and TPS I would definitely run singleton Iona main.  I came very close to swapping TFK into a Timetwister and adding a Krosan Rec to the SB to be able to run a full reverse SB transform from what the Vroman list does.  Extra win cons main are good against anything that runs Null Rod, against Workshop decks, and against random.dec that you see in the early rounds of many large events. 

Independantly of this, though, I'm not a fan of cards like Gifts, FoF, and Mana Drain in a shell like Oath b/c it does play like a worse Tezz and I don't think you gain enough for the liability of being worse at finding Oath + Orchard and/or Key + Vault.

[vroman]

"if Iona gets Exiled or you have to jump through extra hoops to execute your plan, those extra turns could easily result in losing the game."

Iona out of the deck or in hand actually makes the deck a turn faster if you can win a counter war on your next upkeep.


"Similarly a simple Relic or Tormod's Crypt crushes you if Iona is in your graveyard."

I have honestly never had Iona in my graveyard, in hundreds of games, vs all variety of archetypes, many of which running thoughtseize. Iona somehow being put into my yard, and opponent resolving yard hate, and also preventing me from taking inf turns w an alt win, is a risk I am very comfortable with.


"What's your plan against Ichorid? 1 Strip, 1 E. Truth, 1 Extirpate, 1 Tormod's, 1 Trap?  Are you bringing in Balance and Deed?  I honestly don't think that's going to get you there against any competent Fatestitcher Ichorid player."


I have tested extensively vs both manaless and fate dredge, and the reverse. and am quite confident in the matchup. game 1 is slightly in their favor. thats unavoidable. however, my list has better g1 percentage vs dredge than anything Ive piloted, from both sides of the table. after board though its frankly hard to lose.
I have recently changed my list slightly if youve been following the oath thread.

4 misty rainforest
4 forbidden orchard
2 under sea
2 trop island
1 island
1 forest
1 library alexandria
1 faerie conclave
1 stripmine
1 tolarian academy
5 mox
4 lotus petal sol crypt
4 oath
4 force
4 pierce
1 thoughtseize
1 sd top
1 pdeed
1 bstorm
1 ponder
1 recall
1 mscroll
1 m tutor
1 d tutor
1 v tutor
1 yawgwin
1 regrowth
1 gift ungiven
1 rebuild
1 time walk
1 timetwister
1 krosrec
1 flash insight
1 iona
1 vault
1 volt
side
2 mindbreak
2 extirpate
1 balance
1 pdeed
1 tormod
1 rav trap
1 tezert
1 tinker
1 sphinx
1 oxidize
1 slaughter pact
1 trinisphere
1 echo truth

these are minor shifts though, and not really done with dredge pressing on my mind.
my normal board plan vs dredge
-iona
-rebuild
-thoughtseize
-2 spell pierce
-2 force will

+2 extirpate
+tormod
+e truth
+balance
+pdeed
+rav trap

Iona comes out, bc dredge isnt capable of disrupting the combo, so proceed directly to inf turns w faerie conclave beats, 1 turn ahead of schedule.
balance is definitely the weakest link here, but marginaly more useful than what comes out, in corner cases where they dont hit flamekin or run a reanimator strategy, esp Iona, since white is prob not on their mind.
pernicious deed is quite good vs dredge, for example in common situation when they have 3xbridge, dread return, big guy, therapy in yard, with 1 creature in play. when they announce therapy, you let bridge trigger resolve, then deed for zero, so when they get priority back after therapy, zero creatures on board. if they do not have a giant dread return target, and are trying for the flamekin kill, they have to get a lethal flamekin w non-token creatures, which is much, much harder than zombie horde.
e-truth is marginal, but being instant, more likely to matter vs flamekin wins, if you can somehow manuever past the therapies, or get another turn.

overall, 4 yard hate spells have been quite adequate for me, if you know exactly when to use them. also dont discount krosan reclamation and timetwister main. both of these have won me g1s vs dredge.
Seven dedicated yard hate is overkill.


" What about against good Workshop decks?  People are packing MD Chalice of the Void around here... your list has ONE Oxidize to break out of Chalice on 2, and G1 if they resolve it, you just... lose."

I have rebuild and numerous 1c tutor/draw effects. this is no worse than standard blue decks.

"your plan against Trygon Predator is basically pretend its not a card"

ppl who play trygon predator pretend that yawg will is not a card. less fecetiously, sorcery speed artifact/enchantment hate is really not scary. I have never lost a game bc trygon was holding me back. either get vaultvolt in same turn, or oath w time walk, or oath+chump w conclave, or 2x oath, etc. a 3 drop who beats 2 is not scary. which is not to say Ive never lost to fish, but early tgoyf rush and timely counterspells is a much more effective plan than dork flyer who is more expensive than the thing he has to kill wo haste.

"and where there are people that are actually going to play out matches and not scoop for gas money"

where were you?




null rod is not a problem. yard hate is not a problem. theres always option of just killing them w Iona if they overcommit to stopping time vault or krosan rec. one of the things I like about this deck is that has non-linear strategies that are difficult to universally hate out. seal of cleansing/qasali are the only real headaches.
Iona on board wins the game empty handed, by itself probably 80% of the time. the combo win is just gravy, to justify only running Iona, to guarantee thats the creature you get.

gifts is incredibroken here, and I wished Id played it from the start. endstep gifts wins in any deck, but here its cannot to lose.

spell pierce is extremely good, when you understand how to use it. Id go so far to say that it rivals Drain for the number2 counterspell spot, in all of magic.
the point of pierce is: win BOTH recall battles. in almost any match, and certainly vs anything w blue, step 1 is always tutor for recall. pierce, almost as much as forcewill protects your critical T1-2 recall, and gives you immediate ammo to counter their recall attempt. aggressive use of pierce lets me consistently enjoy phantom 6 card swings (ie icountering their recall means enemyis down 1, rather than up 2)
the UU requirement on drain means its impractical to use to protect your spells on T1/2 and/or fight enemy spells while also tutoring.
duress effects, make you commit mana when you dont know if its important or not. pierce lets you keep mana for other instants if they arent trying for recall.
how to win at vintage:
step 1 resolve recall
step 2 counter enemy recall (in either order)
step 3 do anything

[voltron00x]

That post was an interesting mix of overconfidence and oversimplification.  The new list looks awfully soft in the mirror, which is probably going to become more common, and how you'll ever beat a tier one shop player is beyond me.  I'm pretty sure someone like Forino, Lee, or Detwiler would gladly play against that list all day.  And again, without Krosan Grip, you're still unable to fully combo to a resolved Tormod's Crypt or Relic; if you're not bringing in other creatures, you have to win on the back of Iona.  Against decks like Fish, Aggro, or Shops that have outs to Iona or can just race a resolved Iona, this could be a problem.  

Similarly, I would question how many games you've had to play against G/W/b and Noble Fish where the players were competent and experienced against Oath.  Some of this is likely due to the highly regional nature of Vintage, which is generally understated.  I often get emails from players in Europe questioning how I could possibly run my list through an event full of Fish, and of course the answer is I wouldn't and don't have to - it doesn't happen here.

Thanks for taking the time to respond, but I'm not going to engage in a debate here.  We fundamentally disagree - see your previous post in another thread that "Iona Oath would be tier 1 even if Oath was restricted."  There's no logical way to engage in a debate like this, as the deck hasn't proven itself to even BE tier 1 yet, and without its engine it wouldn't even be a deck.

Overconfidence against Ichorid is fine, as it keeps the archetype playable, and I thank you for that.

[Womba]

Overconfidence against Ichorid is fine, as it keeps the archetype playable, and I thank you for that.

I think I have to strongly agree with Matt here, you grossly oversimplify your match up vs dredge. It almost seems like that you think they aren't going to board in anything vs you to disrupt your combo or that they don't run any disruption at all, which is simply not the case. In addition to the fact, you have to actually draw and play your hate without it being disrupted by Therapy, Unmask, FoW, etc.