Discussion: Theoretical Answers to Time Vault

[Nazdakka]

Powerful hate exists already. I can't really see them printing any stronger hosers for a deck that relies on a single copy of an artifact with an activated ability than Pithing Needle, Null Rod, Extract and Ancient Grudge. If a deck comes along that is simply better than all other decks (I'm not saying that's happened), then I think what you need to do is lobby the DCI to take action.

I have to ask: Is it Time Vault itself that's the problem, or is it the cards around it? Most Vintage decks have such a concentration of extremely broken cards that attacking a single card seems irrelevant. If it's not Time Vault, it's Tinker-Colossus, Flash-Hulk, or something else again. Hell, even if you printed this:

0
Super-Extract
Instant
Super-Extract can't be countered by spells or abilities.
Search target opponent's library and exile all cards named Time Vault.

then a Tezzeret-Time Vault player still has the option of going Tezzeret -> Untap some stuff -> Time Walk -> Turn all my mana artifacts into 5/5s and beat you to death.

[AmbivalentDuck]

@Extract: Playing with Earwig Squad and to a lesser extent with Bitter Ordeal, they're brutal when they connect and do tend to end the game.  That said, Extract puts you down in tempo and card advantage while leaving a path to victory.  You need to snag at least two cards in most cases; otherwise, you've wasted a card and main phase blue mana.

Your proposed super-extract is *very* playable on the back of its zero mana cost and instant speed.  I'd go so far as saying that you'd leave it in even against combo decks lacking Time Vault as Extirpate on Vampiric/Mystical (countering them) is quite good.  The only problem is that it has a wonky failure condition: if your opponent's first action is to tutor their brutal combo into their hand, your "answer" must be in your opening hand.  Essentially you *encourage* their deck to focus harder on its combo since your answer loses potency if they try to go off as fast as possible. 

Brutal hate would be more like an Extract that can keep going as long as it can take a restricted card.  Ie. "...and exile it.  If there are no other cards with that name in your opponent's deck, you may pay 1 life and copy this..."

[Guli]

Time vault combo is a BRUTAL win condition. It is the reward of playing with the restricted card that dig, search, draw, accelerate. The effect of the vault is that it finishes the game. Something can be printed to reward an aggro deck in similar fashion without even directly targeting TV.

Aggro control can't follow the same dig, search, draw, accelerate strategies. It follows consistency, it uses attack phase to win, it tries to play the tempo game. For example you can reward an aggro player when they manage to get down 3 creatures attacking.


Naya's Reward - 'new type?'

Play only from your deck (no casting cost)
shufle Naya's Reward back in your deck

Whenever you attack with more than  3 creatures, search your library for this card and put it directly into play.

Sacrifice a creature: Take another turn

This is brutal and strong, but only aggro players will be able to really use it. You can change the card to make it less or more powerful, but my idea is clear, give aggro something as brutal like the TV combo.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Naya's Reward - 'new type?'
Play only from your deck (no casting cost)
shufle Naya's Reward back in your deck
Whenever you attack with more than  3 creatures, search your library for this card and put it directly into play.
Sacrifice a creature: Take another turn

This breaks (legacy) goblins in half.  The library technology is difficult, but you could adapt it to be discardable to do something irrelevant and playable only from the grave.  I'm pretty sure this wrecks Standard, though.

[Guli]

Naya's Reward - 'new type?'
Play only from your deck (no casting cost)
shufle Naya's Reward back in your deck
Whenever you attack with more than  3 creatures, search your library for this card and put it directly into play.
Sacrifice a creature: Take another turn

This breaks (legacy) goblins in half.  The library technology is difficult, but you could adapt it to be discardable to do something irrelevant and playable only from the grave.  I'm pretty sure this wrecks Standard, though.

Find other ways that would reward typical aggro strategies with something 'brutal' that would wreck time vault strategies. My card suggestion is irrelevant, it is about the 'endgame' plan of mana drain/tezz that gets his candy because it searched and drew like a good boy. The goal is to not let control get away with 'oh another grizzly bear that i can ignore because i don't care about the effect or amount of damage it deals, i am faster'

[Nazdakka]

Naya's Reward - 'new type?'
Play only from your deck (no casting cost)
shufle Naya's Reward back in your deck
Whenever you attack with more than  3 creatures, search your library for this card and put it directly into play.
Sacrifice a creature: Take another turn

This breaks (legacy) goblins in half.  The library technology is difficult, but you could adapt it to be discardable to do something irrelevant and playable only from the grave.  I'm pretty sure this wrecks Standard, though.

Find other ways that would reward typical aggro strategies with something 'brutal' that would wreck time vault strategies. My card suggestion is irrelevant, it is about the 'endgame' plan of mana drain/tezz that gets his candy because it searched and drew like a good boy. The goal is to not let control get away with 'oh another grizzly bear that i can ignore because i don't care about the effect or amount of damage it deals, i am faster'

The problem is that any traditional aggro creature/effect that is efficient enough to work in Vintage is likely to cause problems in other formats. Wizards have recently been pushing the boat out when it comes to aggro creatures, but if even a 3/3 for 1 like Wild Nacatl can't get played then I'm not sure what would be good enough. When the control decks can reliably goldfish a (roughly, I don't play Vintage) turn 3-4 win while still running Force, Mana Drain and other disruptive toys, what's the point of playing straight aggro?

(I'm using the phrase 'Straight aggro' to distinguish this kind of burn'n'beats deck from the more disruptive fishy decks you also see).

[AmbivalentDuck]

When the control decks can reliably goldfish a turn 3-4 win (this number is a guess) while still running Force, Mana Drain and other disruptive toys, what's the point of playing straight aggro?

(I'm using the phrase 'Straight aggro' to distinguish this kind of burn'n'beats deck from the more disruptive fishy decks you also see).

That's really the issue: control shouldn't be killing on turn 3 from so-so draws.  Historically dominant control strategies have never had this degree of "Oops I win."

The minimum cost combo was 6 for the longest time via Yawgmoth's Bargain, then 6 split into 2 and 4 off Flame-Vault, and now 4 split into 2, 1, and 1 off Vault-Key.  The combo costs too little and can only be addressed via Null Rod and counterspells.

[Anusien]

The minimum cost combo was 6 for the longest time via Yawgmoth's Bargain, then 6 split into 2 and 4 off Flame-Vault, and now 4 split into 2, 1, and 1 off Vault-Key.  The combo costs too little and can only be addressed via Null Rod and counterspells.

and Extract and Pithing Needle and artifact hate and hand disruption and racing and Suppression Field and Qasali Pridemage...

I don't understand.  People never tried to find answers to Flame Fusillade + Time Vault, they tried to stop the opponent from getting to that point.  What changed?

[AmbivalentDuck]

Extract and Pithing Needle both sink a sorcery-speed card into addressing a problem that hasn't become poignant yet (and never need do so).  From that list, only Pridemage sees regular play since it actually does something to the board state.

@What changed?
It became far easier to "Oops I win" than to try to interact.  You could interact with the Gifts shell reliably.  They actually needed to Drain you to get Gifts up reasonably early in the game, and then they needed 7 mana to Yawg Win.  If you nailed Yawg Will with Extirpate in response to Recoup, your opponent was screwed (having invested eight mana into their line of play).  DSC was easy to answer with every color but green.

Even with recent goblins and monoblack builds, setting up turn 1/2 Sacrament, Bitter Ordeal, or Earwig Squad isn't interaction: it's a conditional Bolt for 20 that requires your opponent having less than 3 win conditions.

[Guli]

The problem is that any traditional aggro creature/effect that is efficient enough to work in Vintage is likely to cause problems in other formats.

What a presumption, I don't agree with this at all.

I wouldn't want to screw other formats to give vintage aggro dangerous tools to get more dominant. Aggro is not doing that bad actually if you look at the top 8 reports. GW beats and Selkie lists are present in recent tourneys. That being said they all run Null Rod. And it's fine, it works however my issue here is not to find ANOTHER answer to fight TV but to give aggro an 'oops win' in such a manner that it would only be playable for aggro control decks. You can't assemble TV with null rod strategies.

Earwig Squad is a good attempt to execute what I am trying to say but it suffers from being conditional. Plus in order to make Earwig Squad work you have to support it with accelerators to get him down turn 2 consistently. To be honest those accelerators and support cards aren't very effective on their own. But because of the good synergy AND the fact that some decks don't run a lot win condition it becomes 'playable' to go for the 5/3 jester's cap. TV on the other hand is 99% of the times GAME OVER when it resolves.

We have to find the uniqueness of aggro control and that one thing that is impossible to do in non aggro decks. Once that element is defined we can work from there. My attempt was trying to reward a player that has managed to successfully cast 3 or more creatures and swings with them. It was a bad design/example but it does explain what I am trying to say.

So what does aggro control use that control or combo doesn't? (vintage)

The combat phase is used a lot for attacking
Creatures are used in greater numbers
Creatures leave play as a logical consequence OR get countered (they printed <a href="http://magiccards.info/zen/en/184.html">Summoning Trap</a>)
Null rod is everywhere
strip/waste effects are utilized a lot
...

You can't implement Time Vault in these lines of play. And there is nothing that WINS the game when assembled that comes close to TV that could potentially be used in aggro control strategies. Null Rod is a repressive card that DOESN'T MAKE YOU LOSE until it is bounced or removed. Big difference.

'Yes but aggro control in nature/essence work this way, they play cards that create tempo and disruption and then beat to victory'

That is what a lot of people found to be 'correct' and now it is 'the way to go'. There is almost no room left for innovation or thinking out of the box. Did you guys know that a lot of vintage players see creature decks as an infestation? They actually use the exact wording to describe a horde of creatures The times we live in ...
Biobuilds are a plague!

Time vault/Key says: When you search your deck a couple of times, counter/bounce some stuff and draw enough cards you win the game.

[serracollector]

Any cards that has a negative impact for taking extra turns OR untapping multiple times would stop Time Vault.

How about an agrro card something like:

I pwn U
Artifact
2 colorless
Whenever a player taps or untaps a permanent they lose 1 life.
"Race through a volcano field....well that went badly"

I pwn u 2
XX mana w/e color.
Instant
If any player would take an extra turn they instead skip that turn and lose 5 life.
Whatever source caused the extra turn is exiled.


I know both are badly worded but you get the point.

[Smmenen]

How about something like this:

R
Split Second
You may play this card only during an opponent's turn.   If active player took the previous turn, that player loses the game.



Or something along those lines...

It would also punish someone for playing Time Walk!   

[AmbivalentDuck]

R
Split Second
You may play this card only during an opponent's turn.   If active player took the previous turn, that player loses the game.

It would also punish someone for playing Time Walk!   

The current Oracle wording for Time Vault probably influences your suggestion:

Time Vault enters the battlefield tapped.
Time Vault doesn't untap during your untap step.
If you would begin your turn while Time Vault is tapped, you may skip that turn instead. If you do, untap Time Vault.
Tap: Take an extra turn after this one.

Since Time Vault fully replaces a turn, your suggestion allows a player with Vault to give the opponent two consecutive turns.  That may actually make Vault more powerful.

The problem doesn't seem intractable.  The best answer is probably a difficult to counter Tainted Pact that you control, but gives your opponent the card.

Ie.  Exile the top card of target opponent's library. You may put that card into their hand unless it has the same name as another card exiled this way. Repeat this process until you put a card into their hand or you exile two cards with the same name, whichever comes first.  If you exile two cards with the same name, they may draw 3 cards.

[Smmenen]

Ok, how about this:


R  Split Second

You may play this card only on your opponent's turn.    If active player is to take an extra turn after this one, they lose the game instead.


That's pretty simple fix.   It makes it so that it's a replacement effect and you can't abuse time vault to give your opponent another turn, since you can't untap Time Vault except at the beginning of your turn.  

EDIT: Whoops, that doesn't fix it, maybe.

I'm looking at the rules, and it's not clear that skipping a turn is the same thing as an 'extra turn.'

Extra turn is defined under 500.7.   If the effect of skipping a turn is not considered an 'extra turn' under 500.7, then my card works.  The rules don't answer the question, and the rules manager would have to decide. 

[AmbivalentDuck]

Fixed?

R  Split Second
You may play this card only during an opponent's turn.  If an effect would grant the active player an extra turn, they lose the game instead.

[Smmenen]

Fixed?

R  Split Second
You may play this card only during an opponent's turn.  If an effect would grant the active player an extra turn, they lose the game instead.

I think so.  That's perfect. 

[voltron00x]

What about a functional reprint of Null Rod with a different name?  Would the ability to play 8Rod.dec change anything?  Does that shift things too far in the favor of Workshop decks?

[Wagner]

What about a functional reprint of Null Rod with a different name?  Would the ability to play 8Rod.dec change anything?  Does that shift things too far in the favor of Workshop decks?

A lot of Shop decks don't play Null Rod.

Also, it is very unlikely Null Rod will be reprinted in any way. And since this is the Card creation forum, I think we can do better than just play more of the same.

Also, more Null Rods don't answer the Rebuild/Recall plan the Vault decks already have.


How about a stupid simple card.

Shattering the Hourglass
1R
Instant
For the rest of the game, players can't take extra turns.

You don't have to have it in play, it can't be bounced, as a cheap instant, it's hard to counter. It also gets Walk + Time Sieve + few other cards. To make it really stronger, just remove the colorless or make it Split Second. Also, it has a cool name.

[AmbivalentDuck]

An especially narrow answer to Vault costs one card to eliminate one line of play.  Unless you can reliably resolve it after your opponent has already committed to Vault, you've basically played a turn 1 Pithing Needle naming Vault.  The difference is that whatever you've just played is less flexible than Needle.

An extra set of Null Rods would be playable if and only if they force Tez to run something maindeck that's not already present.  For example, an enchantment that can't be countered and has pro blue.

[voltron00x]

An extra set of Null Rods would be playable if and only if they force Tez to run something maindeck that's not already present.  For example, an enchantment that can't be countered and has pro blue.

Not sure I agree with this.  There are probably some strategies, such as Aggro or even Fish or G/W/X, that would be able to board in additional Null Rods.  The current answer to Null Rods for most Tezz decks is just to counter the damn thing or find a singleton bounce spell, since Tezz runs roughly double the counters as there are Null Rods available.  Having an additional Null Rod 5-8 would change that balance.  An uncounterable enchantment sounds interesting, but what color would it be?  Green?  That helps G/W/X and Fish, and possibly R/G Aggro, but Shop players couldn't use it... then again, that might be exactly the right way to go.

Again, yes, Tezz can beat a theoretical 8Rod - Tezz can essentially be geared to beat anything.  The way you make life difficult for Tezz is you diversify the threats so that they're not able to answer the entire field. 

I don't think overwhelmingly narrow Time Vault "fixes" are ever going to be printed or even should be printed, so while its an interesting thought exercise, I'm not sure it really accomplishes anything.

Also, one of the innovations of B/R Shops is to run Null Rod.  The card is devastating.  I think that Shop players will gravitate to the card more and more as time goes on.  Or, at least, they should.

[Killane]

Fixed?

R  Split Second
You may play this card only during an opponent's turn.  If an effect would grant the active player an extra turn, they lose the game instead.

I think so.  That's perfect. 

i like this card. but what about making it so that the opponent has to take 3 consecutive turns, thus not makign it hit Walk (since walk is used in many many decks that we are not targeting), unless the walk is Regrowth, Will, etc...:

R  Split Second
You may play this card only during an opponent's turn, and only if they have taken two or more turns in a row.  If an effect would grant the active player an extra turn, they lose the game instead.

This works in Standard, since it does not instanly kill someone who has played Time Warp or activated Time Sieve, and hits the Key-Vault combo hard, but it can still be duressed or Counterbalanced out.

[Wagner]

R  Split Second
You may play this card only during an opponent's turn, and only if they have taken two or more turns in a row.  If an effect would grant the active player an extra turn, they lose the game instead.

I agree that a player using Time Walk should not be punished by losing the game, but this is getting very wordy for not much. I still like the "No extra turns" better if we are to propose a solution that hits only Vault and other turn abuse effects.

[Anusien]

How much would an asymmetrical Null Rod have to cost?  ?  Would it be playable at that cost?

[voltron00x]

How much would an asymmetrical Null Rod have to cost?  ?  Would it be playable at that cost?

Probably playable in Shops and not viable for Null Rod Aggro or Tempo strategies.

[Mr. Fantastic]

In general a card I have wanted to see printed for a while now (and not specifically as an anti-vault card) is a Splinter lite/Oxidize-on-steroids effect.

Fuck the Fuck off Already
Instant
G
Split Second
Exile target artifact.

And if that turns out to be too good, I would like to see it have the Crumble effect "its controller gains life equal to its converted mana cost" added on.  And if its still too good, then I would change its casting cost to 1G.

My concern with extra Null Rods or anti-vault enchantments is the abundance of good, cheap bounce, including H. Recall/Rebuild.  Echoing Truth/Repeal could still bounce enchantments too.  Extract has always seemed kinda good but I guess it costs you card advantage since you lose one from your hand to take something out of your opponents library whereas with a card like the instant I propose (which would be good against stuff other than Vault) your opponent loses the card that they played from hand.  Unless they played it with Tez, I guess.  Sigh.

[thorme]

Split Second and Shroud seem to be the best bets since they deal with the bounce issue.  We can tweak Shroud in other colors with in-flavor effects (as opposed to the can't be targeted)...something like the following for red:

Pendulum of Flame
Enchantment

At the beginning of each player's upkeep, Pendulum of Flame deals 5 damage to that player and all other players gain 5 life.
If Pendulum of Flame becomes the target of a spell or ability, Pendulum of Flame deals 10 damage to that spell or ability's controller.


Potentially useful in decks that aim to kill via damage during the opponent's turn as well as other creative applications (skipping your own upkeep, damage-increasing effects, making use of forcing your opponent to gain life, etc).  I'd likely need to figure out how to deal with the life-gain not being a red thing, but hey its a rough idea.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Hmm, un-rpintable at a cost/damage balance that affects vintage and doesn't break standard.  Think of how brutal that is in conjunction with Sanguine Bond and similar effects.  Even just the recurring 2 damage spell.

Exiling from top of library might be better.  Maybe mill-exile 5 cards for every activated ability?  40 when it's targeted?

[Wagner]

Pendulum of Flame
Enchantment

At the beginning of each player's upkeep, Pendulum of Flame deals 5 damage to that player and all other players gain 5 life.
If Pendulum of Flame becomes the target of a spell or ability, Pendulum of Flame deals 10 damage to that spell or ability's controller.

This is interesting, but would be too hard to follow, life sheets would be a mess. Also, as it is now, it is the best burn spell printed, you get a 5 damage head start, it would need to start working only on your turn. Also, LOL in multiplayer games, life totals would be ever increasing.

[Matt]

I think a Burning-Tree Shaman style ability that exiled cards would be a very good idea. Getting stuff exiled hurts vintage decks a lot more than any other format.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Library Eating Shaman, RG (or GU?)
1/3
Pro blue, flash
Whenever an activated ability is played, its controller exiles the top 5 cards of his/her library.