Getting roundhoused kicked by a Tyrannosaurus Rex aka the BR Stax primer

[Prospero]

Twaun, that's one hell of a primer.  Great job, it was a great read.

P.S. - I loved the 'CEO of NYSE' thing.  I may steal that and put it in my signature.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

My other loss was while I had a Strip+Crucible lock and my opponent untapped and won with only a Mana Crypt in play.  (Though I misplayed a REB which would have changed the game) The reason that I am explaining this is because Null Rod which to the best of my knowledge is primarily aimed at Time Vault decks would not have improved my performance against the currently biggest Time Vault deck, Tezzeret.

Your opponent won out of Strip lock with Mana Crypt, but Null Rod wouldn't have helped you against him?

Stax should certainly be adjusted based on the meta, but I find it difficult to think of a meta in which I wouldn't want to play Null Rod right now.  Null Rod is the single most powerful lock component in the deck, because it does the most on its own to shut down your opponent's mana and constrain their resources.  It usually shuts off around 10 mana sources, so they go from playing an accelerated mana base that composes about 40% of their deck to land a turn mana base of about 25%: this is absolutely crippling.

It is also the best way to make a come-back when on the draw against an opponent with a lot of fast mana.  Null Rod is NOT just good against Time Vault decks.  It is good against everything except aggro decks with little to no artifact mana like G/W.  Stopping Vault/Key is just a bonus.  There is a reason Fish has played Null Rod since it was Gay/R vs. Pyschatog--it stops your opponent from going broken, which is exactly what Stax aims to do.

[Prospero]

My other loss was while I had a Strip+Crucible lock and my opponent untapped and won with only a Mana Crypt in play.  (Though I misplayed a REB which would have changed the game) The reason that I am explaining this is because Null Rod which to the best of my knowledge is primarily aimed at Time Vault decks would not have improved my performance against the currently biggest Time Vault deck, Tezzeret.

Your opponent won out of Strip lock with Mana Crypt, but Null Rod wouldn't have helped you against him?

Stax should certainly be adjusted based on the meta, but I find it difficult to think of a meta in which I wouldn't want to play Null Rod right now.  Null Rod is the single most powerful lock component in the deck, because it does the most on its own to shut down your opponent's mana and constrain their resources.  It usually shuts off around 10 mana sources, so they go from playing an accelerated mana base that composes about 40% of their deck to land a turn mana base of about 25%: this is absolutely crippling.

It is also the best way to make a come-back when on the draw against an opponent with a lot of fast mana.  Null Rod is NOT just good against Time Vault decks.  It is good against everything except aggro decks with little to no artifact mana like G/W.  Stopping Vault/Key is just a bonus.  There is a reason Fish has played Null Rod since it was Gay/R vs. Pyschatog--it stops your opponent from going broken, which is exactly what Stax aims to do.

It certainly does stop an opponent from 'going broken', but there are many ways to accomplish this goal.  A Null Rod on the board doesn't stop your opponents Moxen from saving their lands from a Smokestack, or even guarantee that they won't produce mana (as it seems as though every blue deck in Vintage runs at least one Hurkyl's Recall at the moment.)

Null Rod is exceptionally powerful right now.  More so than it has ever been before.  I would absolutely advocate running multiples, but I wouldn't recommend it for 5C. 

Part of the true beauty of Twaun's B/R Stax list is that it is able to run Null Rods with Workshops - giving him speed, pressure and prevention.

[LordHomerCat]

Tested this deck again tonight.  I'm really impressed by it.  There's a good chance I'm going to play it at the December Blue Bell, despite my concern that I'll be hopeless in the mirror.  Not because of the deck, but because of my lack of experience with Shops, especially compared to the die-hard Shop fanatics that play the deck locally and from NY...

Just draw lots of Crucible of Worlds and Workshops to go with it.  After that it's easy.

[voltron00x]

I mean conceptually the key cards in the mirror and battling out for resource development doesn't seem all that difficult.  Like most mirror matches, only a few cards are really that relevant, etc.

There's just no substitute for experience.

[Will]

My other loss was while I had a Strip+Crucible lock and my opponent untapped and won with only a Mana Crypt in play.  (Though I misplayed a REB which would have changed the game) The reason that I am explaining this is because Null Rod which to the best of my knowledge is primarily aimed at Time Vault decks would not have improved my performance against the currently biggest Time Vault deck, Tezzeret.

Your opponent won out of Strip lock with Mana Crypt, but Null Rod wouldn't have helped you against him?

I failed to mention that this occurred on turn four with the only relevant card draw throughout the game not mentioned was a Tangle Wire the turn before I lost.  Null Rod would have helped this situation immensely however none of the cards it would be conceivably replacing were drawn.  Null Rod stops them from using the artifacts that are shut off however it does not stop them from tapping them to Tangle Wire or sacrificing them to Smokestack or Tinker as Nick said.  5cStax answers the problem in a different way that may or may not be more effective, but allows for more flexibility from your draws in my opinion.  For instance, 5cStax runs Gorilla Shamans and Powder Kegs which are adequate answers to opposing artifacts that have their drawbacks but minimize your opponents permanent count which is especially important for 5c.  What I meant by that example was that if Null Rod were in my deck instead of Gorilla Shaman or Powder Keg I still would not have won that game.   

[voltron00x]

Ok, this came up the other night in testing.  Assume that you're in game 1 of a match, you're on the play, and you don't know what the opponent is playing.

Your opening 7 is:  Mox Ruby, Mox Jet, Mox Sapphire, Mishra's Workshop, 3Sphere, Bob, Welder

Sick hand, I know.  How do you play out this hand?

Mox, Mox, Mox, Shop, 3Sphere... if 3Sphere resolves, play Bob or Welder, and if it gets Forced, drop both and laugh maniacally?

Sapphire, Jet, Bob (hilarious bluff of Tezz if you ask me)... if Bob resolves, 3Sphere and follow with a Welder you know will resolve next turn?  If 3Sphere gets Forced, you can probably resolve Welder and get it back... or if Bob resolves, Welder and then 3Sphere, since if they Force Welder your resource advantage is unbelievable?

It ended up being irrelevant as my opponent didn't have a Force in hand, but we had some debate about the right order.  Basically, which card is the most valuable in a vacuum, Bob, Welder, or 3Sphere, and in what order are you most likely to maximize value?

[Twaun007]

Ok, this came up the other night in testing.  Assume that you're in game 1 of a match, you're on the play, and you don't know what the opponent is playing.

Your opening 7 is:  Mox Ruby, Mox Jet, Mox Sapphire, Mishra's Workshop, 3Sphere, Bob, Welder

Sick hand, I know.  How do you play out this hand?

Mox, Mox, Mox, Shop, 3Sphere... if 3Sphere resolves, play Bob or Welder, and if it gets Forced, drop both and laugh maniacally?

Sapphire, Jet, Bob (hilarious bluff of Tezz if you ask me)... if Bob resolves, 3Sphere and follow with a Welder you know will resolve next turn?  If 3Sphere gets Forced, you can probably resolve Welder and get it back... or if Bob resolves, Welder and then 3Sphere, since if they Force Welder your resource advantage is unbelievable?

It ended up being irrelevant as my opponent didn't have a Force in hand, but we had some debate about the right order.  Basically, which card is the most valuable in a vacuum, Bob, Welder, or 3Sphere, and in what order are you most likely to maximize value?

I'm a bit pressed for time right now so I'll quickly comment and add more later.

I would lead with Ruby, Welder, Sapphire, Jet, Confidant, and end with Workshop Trinisphere. That way if Trinisphere gets countered you can play your next cards unimpeded and Weld the 3ball back in. I would think the most important card in the opener would be Trinishpere since it slows down Combo, Tez, Oath, Fish etc.... The only thing I'd be scared of is Dredge or Workshop into Metal Worker. Welder and Confidant would be the bait spells to get Trinisphere in and the more important of those two would be Dark Confidant. Confidant is going to start digging away and he should let you grind ahead. I value him over Welder in this hand.

The only other way I could see playing out this hand is Ruby, Welder, Jet, Sapphire, Workshop, Trinisphere (hope it gets the Force of Will) then drop Confidant. If the Trinisphere sticks you'll be able to drop Confidant without worry and you'll just lose one card and two damage from Confidant coming in a turn later.

I see Goblin Welder as the least important spell out of the three.

[TheJesus]

I really enjoyed the primer Twaun. Rocking!

The only thing you didn't cover was the Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. I understand needing the fetch and the Cabal Pit (instead of more Barbarian Rings) to smooth the mana base, but giving your opponent a black source seems bad. I guess the easy answer is "Then don't put it into play."

The benefit of Bazaar and Workshops giving B doesn't seem of much use. I mean if you have one black producing land, isn't that enough? Shouldn't this be another fetch, dual, or utility land?

[BruiZar]

nm

BruiZar, you know better then to post something like this, if you have nothing to say don't post, if you posted something that didn't make sense, delete it. Verbal Warning for Lack of Content. Marske

Show me where I can find the delete button and it's gone

[Shean]

Ok, this came up the other night in testing.  Assume that you're in game 1 of a match, you're on the play, and you don't know what the opponent is playing.

Your opening 7 is:  Mox Ruby, Mox Jet, Mox Sapphire, Mishra's Workshop, 3Sphere, Bob, Welder

Sick hand, I know.  How do you play out this hand?

Mox, Mox, Mox, Shop, 3Sphere... if 3Sphere resolves, play Bob or Welder, and if it gets Forced, drop both and laugh maniacally?

Sapphire, Jet, Bob (hilarious bluff of Tezz if you ask me)... if Bob resolves, 3Sphere and follow with a Welder you know will resolve next turn?  If 3Sphere gets Forced, you can probably resolve Welder and get it back... or if Bob resolves, Welder and then 3Sphere, since if they Force Welder your resource advantage is unbelievable?

It ended up being irrelevant as my opponent didn't have a Force in hand, but we had some debate about the right order.  Basically, which card is the most valuable in a vacuum, Bob, Welder, or 3Sphere, and in what order are you most likely to maximize value?

I'm a bit pressed for time right now so I'll quickly comment and add more later.

I would lead with Ruby, Welder, Sapphire, Jet, Confidant, and end with Workshop Trinisphere. That way if Trinisphere gets countered you can play your next cards unimpeded and Weld the 3ball back in. I would think the most important card in the opener would be Trinishpere since it slows down Combo, Tez, Oath, Fish etc.... The only thing I'd be scared of is Dredge or Workshop into Metal Worker. Welder and Confidant would be the bait spells to get Trinisphere in and the more important of those two would be Dark Confidant. Confidant is going to start digging away and he should let you grind ahead. I value him over Welder in this hand.

The only other way I could see playing out this hand is Ruby, Welder, Jet, Sapphire, Workshop, Trinisphere (hope it gets the Force of Will) then drop Confidant. If the Trinisphere sticks you'll be able to drop Confidant without worry and you'll just lose one card and two damage from Confidant coming in a turn later.

I see Goblin Welder as the least important spell out of the three.

I agree with the way Twaun would play this hand:  Welder, Confidant, Trinisphere.  However, I would never slowroll my Confidant.  In my experience, if you can drop your whole hand on Turn 1, do it, unless there is an obvious advantage to waiting.  In this case, I don't see an advantage to waiting.  That 1 extra card you get earlier with Bob may be the lock piece you need to seal the deal.

Also, I think Trinisphere is the spell you really want to resolve here.  Even if your opponent wastes your Shop, you still have 3 active mana on the board.  After seeing Welder and Bob resolve, I wouldn't have any concern about FoW because both of those cards usually merit using a FoW on turn 1.

[vassago]

This was an awesome read.  I think you have described very easily the deck archetype and it is the article I would suggest anyone who wants to play any shop variant to read.  Not to mention your writing is a BLAST to read.  Whoever did not read it based on the title alone has not been on the drain since it has been posted. Thanks dude.

[Puinsai]

very good writing ! I have a question about SB vs RGbeatz and aggro deck like Fish WGB...
I am perplexed about the kill with 4x Confidant, with a kill faster and less risky than Confidant
2x Razormane Masticore in SB
what to think ?

[Odd mutation]

Twaun,

Very interesting read! I've been thinking about playing Workshops again and I'll be putting this together.

Anybody played this in a tournement recently? Results? Experiences? Advice?

Thank you,

Robrecht.

[suffocation2157]

i will be playing this in a lotus tourney tomorrow. i will take quick notes and let everyone know how it goes.

[Will]

After playtesting with 5cStax against this deck I feel as though the deck is less forgiving.  While RB Stax is not my "expertise" and I am at most just proficient with Stax, I can compare it to 5c because it is just a few cards different as a whole.  Playing more lock components than other versions of the deck has positives but also negatives.  With more lock pieces you have a faster and more threatening clock than playing creatures would allow you to; however, playing win conditions such as Sundering Titan or Karn provide you with threats that actually win the game rather than stop your opponent.  For instance, last night in testing against Matt Elias he had the upper hand with a few lock pieces in play, a Crucible, and a Dark Confidant, all relevant in the Stax mirror, but I resolved Tinker.  I got Sundering Titan and subsequently won the game as the deck does not have any answers for Tinker --> Robot.  Granted this was only one game and our sample size was not very large as he had to go, but it seems like what the deck puts forth in lock pieces, it lacks in ways to win the game.  Razormane could be reasonably powerful out of the sideboard for Fish, but Pyroclasm or something similar seems necessary as quite a few of the threats in the deck seem to lose their effectiveness against creature strategies.  

[voltron00x]

To be fair, the deck has an answer for Sundering Titan:  Goblin Welder.  I just couldn't find that or Tangle Wire fast enough.  However, your point is fair as far as Inkwell or Sphinx goes, against Tezz for instance.  That said, I've only lost a few games that way so far.

[Will]

True, both would have been great in that situation for me, and rather dismal for me.  Tangle Wire would have been absolutely terrible for me because of my lack of a board presence besides for my creatures and would have shut me out.  Welder probably would have actually ended the game as I think you had quite a few nasty artifacts in your yard at that point from Bazaar.  

With regards to the Tezzeret matchup, I'm not sure which deck is better suited to win.  I know NYSE Stax was developed to smash the Tezz matchup and does so for the most part.  As with any deck, Tezzeret can at times just blow up in your face, winning out of nowhere.  BR Stax definitely makes this harder to accomplish in the abstract because it plays more lock pieces; however, the deck gives more time to catch up as its win conditions are Dark Confidant, Goblin Welder, and Mishra's Factory.  These guys will get you there, but I personally don't like playing against the clock when I have my opponent beat already.  

[Twaun007]

This was an awesome read.  I think you have described very easily the deck archetype and it is the article I would suggest anyone who wants to play any shop variant to read.  Not to mention your writing is a BLAST to read.  Whoever did not read it based on the title alone has not been on the drain since it has been posted. Thanks dude.

Thanks man.

very good writing ! I have a question about SB vs RGbeatz and aggro deck like Fish WGB...
I am perplexed about the kill with 4x Confidant, with a kill faster and less risky than Confidant
2x Razormane Masticore in SB
what to think ?

How is the Confidant kill risky? The deck’s average mana cost is so low that Confidant can stay in play around 17 turns. Like I stated earlier it shouldn’t matter what kill condition you have when your opponent is locked out of the game. Don’t get me wrong, Razormane Masticore is perfectly suited for your sideboard if your meta is loaded with aggro. I just have had the most success combating aggro through the use of un-counterable lands such as Maze of Ith and The Tabernacle at the Pendrell Vale.

After playtesting with 5cStax against this deck I feel as though the deck is less forgiving.  While RB Stax is not my "expertise" and I am at most just proficient with Stax, I can compare it to 5c because it is just a few cards different as a whole.  Playing more lock components than other versions of the deck has positives but also negatives.  With more lock pieces you have a faster and more threatening clock than playing creatures would allow you to; however, playing win conditions such as Sundering Titan or Karn provide you with threats that actually win the game rather than stop your opponent.  For instance, last night in testing against Matt Elias he had the upper hand with a few lock pieces in play, a Crucible, and a Dark Confidant, all relevant in the Stax mirror, but I resolved Tinker.  I got Sundering Titan and subsequently won the game as the deck does not have any answers for Tinker --> Robot.

The most recent 5c Stax list have cut Balance, so what main deck answers do they run for Tinker into Robot? If you’re unable to stop the casting of Tinker versus any deck you probably aren’t winning anyway.

Granted this was only one game and our sample size was not very large as he had to go, but it seems like what the deck puts forth in lock pieces, it lacks in ways to win the game. 

The deck’s lock pieces are the win.

Razormane could be reasonably powerful out of the sideboard for Fish, but Pyroclasm or something similar seems necessary as quite a few of the threats in the deck seem to lose their effectiveness against creature strategies.

You take out Thorn of Amethyst and put in Tabernacles and Maze of Ith to battle fish. CotV, Tangle Wire, and Smokestack are the nuts versus fish so what threats lose their effectiveness?

To be fair, the deck has an answer for Sundering Titan:  Goblin Welder.  I just couldn't find that or Tangle Wire fast enough.  However, your point is fair as far as Inkwell or Sphinx goes, against Tezz for instance.  That said, I've only lost a few games that way so far.

What ways are other Stax decks using to combat Tinker into Inkwell or Sphinx?

With regards to the Tezzeret matchup, I'm not sure which deck is better suited to win.  I know NYSE Stax was developed to smash the Tezz matchup and does so for the most part.  As with any deck, Tezzeret can at times just blow up in your face, winning out of nowhere.  BR Stax definitely makes this harder to accomplish in the abstract because it plays more lock pieces; however, the deck gives more time to catch up as its win conditions are Dark Confidant, Goblin Welder, and Mishra's Factory.  These guys will get you there, but I personally don't like playing against the clock when I have my opponent beat already. 

Both decks are perfectly suited at destroying Tezzeret and I would encourage everyone to try playing each of them.

[Will]

The most recent 5c Stax list have cut Balance, so what main deck answers do they run for Tinker into Robot? If you’re unable to stop the casting of Tinker versus any deck you probably aren’t winning anyway.

Well for 5cStax besides the answer of Welder with Tangle Wire or Tangle Wire and Smokestack there are other answers.  For one, most of the time that Tezz goes for Tinker it is a last resort or the entirety of their hand.  5cStax has Sundering Titan/ Karn to answer Inkwell and Duplicant takes out Sphinx of the Steel Wind.  

The deck’s lock pieces are the win.

As they are in any other deck, but that doesn't mean that you are able to deal 20 damage and actually win in a reasonable amount of time.  

You take out Thorn of Amethyst and put in Tabernacles and Maze of Ith to battle fish. CotV, Tangle Wire, and Smokestack are the nuts versus fish so what threats lose their effectiveness?

It would seem that Null Rod is pretty much useless as your opponent also plays them.  However, my knowledge of the Fish matchup is admittedly minimal as the Blue Bell metagame generally doesn't have much Fish.  

Both decks are perfectly suited at destroying Tezzeret and I would encourage everyone to try playing each of them.

Once I'm done testing out the Oath/ mirror I will put in some more time with B/R as I'll have time after the Blue Bell next weekend.  

[voltron00x]

I was concerned about the lack of a "win condition" in this build a la Titan / Karn / Trisk in 5C Stax, but after playing the deck for a while, you really don't need them.  With so many extra overlapping lock pieces and extra draw spells, you just hit game states where its impossible to lose.  Beating for 3 a turn with an extra Welder and a Bob becomes perfectly reasonable when your opponent is a hapless punching bag.  Most people scoop before it becomes an issue, and when it does, you can rattle off 4x / turn with a Barb Ring + Bob.  I havent found there to be too many "close" games with this list, as far as a damage race... any close turns are more about, did I hit what I needed to continue to stunt my opponent's ability to develop, or did I give them a turn to push through a key spell?

I'm looking forward to playing this on 12/5, although the SB has to be different to reflect the rise of Oath and the different meta here in Philly / NJ.

[GNU]

i played this deck in a small 15 person tourny on the weekend. I've been playing with Mono Red staxs for years now and love the deck, but I think I have a new soul mate with this new BR version. I played against Fish & Sui black in the tourny, and found myself wanting to board out null rod to bring in the Hertics. Whilst this may seem counter productive whilst also bring in the Tabernacles, it bought me time. I was able to block their annoying 2/2's and throw lock pieces into counterspells, at the end of the day, I have more lock components than they have counters....So its a matter of when they run out, not if!!!

I lost the first game to BUG with my opponent dropping 1st turn goyf and playing 2 FoW in my first turn.....Rough. Second game i ground it out of him. Third he got an early tinker for sphinx, and I couldn't get a tangle wire down faster enough.

[TheShop]

This was an awesome read.  I think you have described very easily the deck archetype and it is the article I would suggest anyone who wants to play any shop variant to read.  Not to mention your writing is a BLAST to read.  Whoever did not read it based on the title alone has not been on the drain since it has been posted. Thanks dude.

Thanks man.

very good writing ! I have a question about SB vs RGbeatz and aggro deck like Fish WGB...
I am perplexed about the kill with 4x Confidant, with a kill faster and less risky than Confidant
2x Razormane Masticore in SB
what to think ?

How is the Confidant kill risky? The deck’s average mana cost is so low that Confidant can stay in play around 17 turns. Like I stated earlier it shouldn’t matter what kill condition you have when your opponent is locked out of the game. Don’t get me wrong, Razormane Masticore is perfectly suited for your sideboard if your meta is loaded with aggro. I just have had the most success combating aggro through the use of un-counterable lands such as Maze of Ith and The Tabernacle at the Pendrell Vale.

After playtesting with 5cStax against this deck I feel as though the deck is less forgiving.  While RB Stax is not my "expertise" and I am at most just proficient with Stax, I can compare it to 5c because it is just a few cards different as a whole.  Playing more lock components than other versions of the deck has positives but also negatives.  With more lock pieces you have a faster and more threatening clock than playing creatures would allow you to; however, playing win conditions such as Sundering Titan or Karn provide you with threats that actually win the game rather than stop your opponent.  For instance, last night in testing against Matt Elias he had the upper hand with a few lock pieces in play, a Crucible, and a Dark Confidant, all relevant in the Stax mirror, but I resolved Tinker.  I got Sundering Titan and subsequently won the game as the deck does not have any answers for Tinker --> Robot.

The most recent 5c Stax list have cut Balance, so what main deck answers do they run for Tinker into Robot? If you’re unable to stop the casting of Tinker versus any deck you probably aren’t winning anyway.

Cutting Balance is the worst decision ever for a 5-color pilot.  If Wiz made a land that tapped for 3 colors with a lesser drawback than gemstone mine, I would cut green (2 rotations) and blue (tinker, ancestral) and add 2-3 lock components (dropping mine and adding the new land).  White is the best additional color when running tutors:  Seal of Cleansing and Balance are the only reason I do not play with B/R.  Ancestral, Crop Rotation, and Tinker are just auto-includes when you realize that your colored mana lands MUST be Gemstone Mine and City of Brass when running colors is excess of 2.

I recently went back to the drawing board and will be posting a list and explanations for 5-color within the next two weeks (work is busy).  I think I am going to end up defying a lot of the theory I posted in the other forum.

Again, I thoroughly enjoyed this primer.

[Will]

Cutting Balance is the worst decision ever for a 5-color pilot.  If Wiz made a land that tapped for 3 colors with a lesser drawback than gemstone mine, I would cut green (2 rotations) and blue (tinker, ancestral) and add 2-3 lock components (dropping mine and adding the new land).  White is the best additional color when running tutors:  Seal of Cleansing and Balance are the only reason I do not play with B/R.  Ancestral, Crop Rotation, and Tinker are just auto-includes when you realize that your colored mana lands MUST be Gemstone Mine and City of Brass when running colors is excess of 2.

It seems pretty clear to me that City of Brass and Gemstone are auto-includes since they are the only lands who tap for more than 2 colors but the other parts seem to be from left field.  I understand that if you didn't need Gemstone and City but rather had a BRW land you would play just Balance rather than everything else that 5cStax plays that is different than B/R, but why?  What does a 1 of Balance actually achieve for you?  First, ask yourself honestly what does Balance actually accomplish in this type of deck besides promote card disadvantage?  To really make Balance good you would have to up your list to 4 Bazaar and 4 Crucible most likely as well as other similar cards that are not really good enough without Balance.  My point as a whole is that when you have Balance it is not up to its full potential (and therefore really worthwhile) unless you alter your play to make it so.  This is not always true, but why not just give a sideboard slot to it rather than a maindeck spot when it more than likely will not be optimal or effective against the majority of the decks. 

[Prospero]

This was an awesome read.  I think you have described very easily the deck archetype and it is the article I would suggest anyone who wants to play any shop variant to read.  Not to mention your writing is a BLAST to read.  Whoever did not read it based on the title alone has not been on the drain since it has been posted. Thanks dude.

Thanks man.

very good writing ! I have a question about SB vs RGbeatz and aggro deck like Fish WGB...
I am perplexed about the kill with 4x Confidant, with a kill faster and less risky than Confidant
2x Razormane Masticore in SB
what to think ?

How is the Confidant kill risky? The deck’s average mana cost is so low that Confidant can stay in play around 17 turns. Like I stated earlier it shouldn’t matter what kill condition you have when your opponent is locked out of the game. Don’t get me wrong, Razormane Masticore is perfectly suited for your sideboard if your meta is loaded with aggro. I just have had the most success combating aggro through the use of un-counterable lands such as Maze of Ith and The Tabernacle at the Pendrell Vale.

After playtesting with 5cStax against this deck I feel as though the deck is less forgiving.  While RB Stax is not my "expertise" and I am at most just proficient with Stax, I can compare it to 5c because it is just a few cards different as a whole.  Playing more lock components than other versions of the deck has positives but also negatives.  With more lock pieces you have a faster and more threatening clock than playing creatures would allow you to; however, playing win conditions such as Sundering Titan or Karn provide you with threats that actually win the game rather than stop your opponent.  For instance, last night in testing against Matt Elias he had the upper hand with a few lock pieces in play, a Crucible, and a Dark Confidant, all relevant in the Stax mirror, but I resolved Tinker.  I got Sundering Titan and subsequently won the game as the deck does not have any answers for Tinker --> Robot.

The most recent 5c Stax list have cut Balance, so what main deck answers do they run for Tinker into Robot? If you’re unable to stop the casting of Tinker versus any deck you probably aren’t winning anyway.

Cutting Balance is the worst decision ever for a 5-color pilot.  If Wiz made a land that tapped for 3 colors with a lesser drawback than gemstone mine, I would cut green (2 rotations) and blue (tinker, ancestral) and add 2-3 lock components (dropping mine and adding the new land).  White is the best additional color when running tutors:  Seal of Cleansing and Balance are the only reason I do not play with B/R.  Ancestral, Crop Rotation, and Tinker are just auto-includes when you realize that your colored mana lands MUST be Gemstone Mine and City of Brass when running colors is excess of 2.

I recently went back to the drawing board and will be posting a list and explanations for 5-color within the next two weeks (work is busy).  I think I am going to end up defying a lot of the theory I posted in the other forum.

Again, I thoroughly enjoyed this primer.

Not to get all existential on you, but what is Stax?

I think that the best answer to that question is a simple answer; a hate deck.

If Stax is a hate deck, doesn't it revolve entirely around the environment that it's hating?  And if that's the case, and creatures aren't a significant part of the metagame, then why are you running Balance?  I don't know if Balance in the main is right where you play.  It's not right here, not now at least.  I've been involved in this discussion for the last six months or so, and I'll keep repeating my original point; there is no given card in the deck that is holy when you're a hate deck.

I wouldn't call cutting Balance from the main the 'worst decision ever' for a 5C pilot.  I've won a fair amount of power, including a Lotus, without Balance in the main.  I haven't missed it and I would caution you against feeling that there is anything in your deck that is so holy you can't cut it.  There are no absolutes here.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

Stax is a prison strategy, not a hate deck, there is a difference.  Prison tries to limit your opponents’ lines of play, or eliminate them all together. A hate deck is more of an X to your Y deck (obviously sbing muddies this analogy a bit).

Also, I'm not saying that balance is right for this list, I wouldn't bother splashing more colors, but it is more than a card to kill dudes. Balance is like a wrath, mind twist, and Armageddon all rolled into one. It attacks your opponent’s resources in a number of places; you’ve seemed to have missed this very important aspect of the card. I WOULD call cutting balance the worst idea ever for a 5c shop player, I'd run 16 if I could.

[Prospero]

Stax is a prison strategy, not a hate deck, there is a difference.  Prison tries to limit your opponents’ lines of play, or eliminate them all together. A hate deck is more of an X to your Y deck (obviously sbing muddies this analogy a bit).

Also, I'm not saying that balance is right for this list, I wouldn't bother splashing more colors, but it is more than a card to kill dudes. Balance is like a wrath, mind twist, and Armageddon all rolled into one. It attacks your opponent’s resources in a number of places; you’ve seemed to have missed this very important aspect of the card. I WOULD call cutting balance the worst idea ever for a 5c shop player, I'd run 16 if I could.

From my SCG article:

Finally, and most controversially, Balance. Blue pilots were typically running around 14-16 lands to my 19. As Wasteland and Strip Mine were both land parity cards they did not help my Balance serve as land destruction. Balance also did not help control my opponents Moxen, which was precisely what I needed. The printing of Inkwell Leviathan meant that Tezzeret pilots could now wantonly Tinker in the face of my Goblin Welder without fear – and they did. The only match in which Balance’s ability to nail creatures shined was against aggro –yet aggro decks were on the wane because Inkwell was too devastating. They could not handle an un-targetable, trampling three-turn clock (additionally, aggro strategies had yet to craft a list that would control the Vault/Key combo long enough for them to do the requisite 20 points of damage). Lastly, as I was running 5CStax, not a variant that sought to abuse cards like Bazaar of Baghdad, I often had quite a few cards in hand. Balance was not Mind Twist, for me at least.

In the right context, Balance is one of the most broken cards in Vintage, a card that creates the antithesis of what its name supposedly declares it to be. It is possible to create a 5CStax list that thoroughly abuses the card. In order to do so, you must sacrifice certain advantages that you have. A list that seeks to thoroughly abuse Balance would probably look to take advantage of its interaction with Bazaar of Baghdad. Crucible of Worlds would also be more important than usual – it would make the land destruction more devastating for your opponent and ensure that you could recover. I believe that a list that seeks to abuse Balance in this manner is much more susceptible to both Drains and Force of Will. In lieu of creating a list that would increase the devastating effect of one card, we sought to create a list that continuously hammered the opponent with threats until they crumbled. Balance was the card that I had the toughest time relegating to the sideboard. It was my security blanket. The time did come though, and it was sent to the sideboard – where it shined when used properly.

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/17845_The_Long_Winding_Road_NYSE_5C_Stax_Preface.html

I was looking for a discussion that I had with Steve in one of the old Stax threads, I'm pretty sure that in our discussion he agreed with me that Stax is an 'elegant hate deck'.  

What is prison?  A prison deck would look to create a hard lock that your opponent, under ideal conditions, was unable to break.

How does the prison deck do this?  In terms of 5CStax, they hate your lands, your Moxen (pseudo lands) and your curve.  I think that there really isn't a difference between 'prison' and 'hate deck' definitions here - I think this is just semantics.  

As far as Balance is concerned, I've had the discussion more times than I care to recall in the previous 9 months.  The basics reiterated:

1.  Your job, as a Stax player (and a hate deck) is to play the percentages at some level.  If you know that Tezzeret is going to comprise upwards of 30% of the field, then you should be prepared to play and beat Tezzeret.  At the moment I am playing 18 lands in my list.  5 of those lands are Waste/Strip effects - parity cards.  Many of the best Tezzeret lists were running something like the following mana base:

6 Fetches
3 Basic lands
5 Duals
1 Academy

My issue then, as a Stax player, was that the Tezzeret deck was already running less land than I was, and I was running hate cards for his lands in Wasteland, Strip Mine and Smokestack.  I generally had more lands on the field than my most prevalent opponent did.  So Balance wasn't an effective way for me to destroy their lands.

2.  Secondly, there is the creature removal effect of Balance.  I would ask the fellow members of the NY/NJ Vintage area to discuss just how much Fish is played in our metagame.  There is virtually none.  At my last event I had 53 participants.  Of those 53 participants, there were 5 decks that were Fish/Beats with a solitary Elves deck thrown in (a combo deck that can function as a decent beats deck if the situation warrants.)  The metagame I play in right now looks something like this:

30% Tezzeret
15% Oath
15% Stax
7% Fish/Beats
10% Dredge
23% random

I don't like Balance vs. Tezzeret for creature destruction as I run roughly double their 4 creatures.  I don't like it against Oath because their Orchards ensure that the creature count with either be equal, or positive in my favor.  With those two choices alone I have now eliminated nearly 50% of the field.  This means that I will be running a card that, game one, I may want to board out more than half the time.  If you're boarding something main out that frequently, there's a good chance that it belongs in the sideboard.

3.  Lastly there is the issue of hand destruction.  This is the arena in which Balance shines best in relation to your argument.  Your game plan is to lock them out, however.  A 'discard 2-3' effect is very good - it's potentially card advantage, but it isn't your plan for winning the game.  Your plan for winning the game is to lock them out.  This point could be enumerated to some length, but I hope that you see my point without requiring another iteration of this argument (as it would be at least the 6th time that I've done this.)

I really do hate patting myself on the back, but consider the following run:

2nd at Philly Open III
Top 8 Blue Bell
1st Blue Bell Bazaar side event
1st Dan Herd Memorial Tournament
Top 8 Blue Bell
1st JHU Vintage

That was over the span of two months.  I posted those finishes without Balance in the main.  Results speak far louder than words, and if you care to go back further, there is another Blue Bell top 8 that you can throw in with that list.  

If Balance were unrestricted, this would be a different story.  I would work towards crafting a list that thoroughly abused it.  It is, however, not unrestricted, and that should be taken into consideration.  

Nothing is holy in Stax, and I think that if you adopt that position - and don't restrict yourself by playing the cards that everyone has always played/expected you to play - you'll find yourself with many more options open to you, and potentially many more wins underneath your belt.  

[voltron00x]

Stephen posted this in his link to his SCG article this week:

I also offer this article as a counterpoint to the typical assumptions -- so common -- that there are 'objectively' best lists, and objectively optimal cards, and that deck construction should (if ever) proceed from such assumptions.   My methodology for deck construction makes virtually no such claims.  No card is sacred except those that are necessary to a particular strategy, your plan for winning. 

After reading this article, you should *very* skeptical of anyone who might claim such certainty, and, point them to this article as a way of understanding a better way to approach Vintage.   My teammates continue to make such claims, and I offer this article as a full throat rebuttal. 

[Prospero]

Stephen posted this in his link to his SCG article this week:

I also offer this article as a counterpoint to the typical assumptions -- so common -- that there are 'objectively' best lists, and objectively optimal cards, and that deck construction should (if ever) proceed from such assumptions.   My methodology for deck construction makes virtually no such claims.  No card is sacred except those that are necessary to a particular strategy, your plan for winning. 

After reading this article, you should *very* skeptical of anyone who might claim such certainty, and, point them to this article as a way of understanding a better way to approach Vintage.   My teammates continue to make such claims, and I offer this article as a full throat rebuttal. 

Thanks Matt.  That's pretty much the gist of what I've been saying all along.  And thanks Steve, for putting it out there.

Decks don't exist in vacuums.  To paraphrase something Steve has said a few times - you shouldn't be concerned with the card, but with the interaction. 

[TheShop]

Here is my question after reading all of that (BTW we hijacked this discussion, and I apologize-this is my last post in this thread that will reference a list other than B/R):

Balance isn't holy.....

However, Why are you running additional colors?  Is it really for the sideboard like Kron?  Black Tutors and Welders make up most of the colored spells in the deck.  Why are you running colors other than B/R?

If you are cutting most of the other colored spells, I would point you to a MUD list since Stax is just a prison deck.  You could technically run 27 artifact lock components, 4 juggs, and mana sources...

If we can establish that there is some reason to run more than 2 colors...then why would you cut Balance?????????  This is the BEST (said it) single card against the whole field at once.  And, it makes the power of your tutors WAY higher.  Steve's most recent meta report stated that Fish/ G/w beats had almost 25% of top 8's.  But Balance isn't only good against creatures.  In Steve's recent 5-color article he addresses this fact as well.

At worst Balance is usually Stone Rain for 1 less mana, Mind Rot for 1 less mana, or Cruel Edict.  Often it is more than one at a time (usually stone rain + Mind Rot).  You don't need crucible and bazaar to make balance good.  And your tournament wins without Balance pale in comparison to Kron and Chang with Balance (lets not get into that pissing match).

FACT:  You will not ALWAYS lock the opponent out early.  Sometimes they get out of control.  This would happen at some point no matter what build you run.  Balance allows you to take games that are out of control back.  When this doesn't happen, the card is still decent against the entire field, this is a spell that destroys permanents efficiently-therefore fitting directly into the gameplan.  

EDIT:  Anyone have thoughts on Seal of Cleansing?