Getting roundhoused kicked by a Tyrannosaurus Rex aka the BR Stax primer

[Prospero]

Here is my question after reading all of that (BTW we hijacked this discussion, and I apologize-this is my last post in this thread that will reference a list other than B/R):

Balance isn't holy.....

However, Why are you running additional colors?  Is it really for the sideboard like Kron?  Black Tutors and Welders make up most of the colored spells in the deck.  Why are you running colors other than B/R?

If you are cutting most of the other colored spells, I would point you to a MUD list since Stax is just a prison deck.  You could technically run 27 artifact lock components, 4 juggs, and mana sources...

If we can establish that there is some reason to run more than 2 colors...then why would you cut Balance?????????  This is the BEST (said it) single card against the whole field at once.  And, it makes the power of your tutors WAY higher.  Steve's most recent meta report stated that Fish/ G/w beats had almost 25% of top 8's.  But Balance isn't only good against creatures.  In Steve's recent 5-color article he addresses this fact as well.

At worst Balance is usually Stone Rain for 1 less mana, Mind Rot for 1 less mana, or Cruel Edict.  Often it is more than one at a time (usually stone rain + Mind Rot).  You don't need crucible and bazaar to make balance good.  And your tournament wins without Balance pale in comparison to Kron and Chang with Balance (lets not get into that pissing match).

FACT:  You will not ALWAYS lock the opponent out early.  Sometimes they get out of control.  This would happen at some point no matter what build you run.  Balance allows you to take games that are out of control back.  When this doesn't happen, the card is still decent against the entire field, this is a spell that destroys permanents efficiently-therefore fitting directly into the gameplan.  

EDIT:  Anyone have thoughts on Seal of Cleansing?
 

I've enumerated my points many, many times, in many different threads.  If you're looking to engage in a discussion about Balance in the main, I'd ask you to first answer the questions that I raised in explaining why you feel Balance should be in the main. 

I'd also ask you to consider Balance in the following matchups:

1.  Dredge - where you nail their creatures for one turn at the cost of your hand and your mana base.

2.  Oath - where you may lose 2+ lands, gain 2-3 cards in hand and have no effect with creatures on board (at which point you should be asking what you really accomplished)

3.  Tezzeret - where you will, once again, nail yourself on lands, them on cards in hand, and possibly nail a Dark Confidant (though probably not, since you run roughly double the creatures that they run.)

The Gemstone Mines and City of Brass's provide me with sideboard options that black and red do not have available to them.

I like Twaun's list very, very much.  I would consider playing this list.  I, as of right now, prefer 5CStax for personal reasons.

[TheShop]

I listed the reasons why Balance is not a bad card to maindeck in the post you quoted.

In response to the new questions:
1) Dredge-  There are numerous cards in 5color that have no impact on Dredge-  The first one that comes to mind is Smokestack (which most lists run 4 copies of).  Just because a card in STAX is not good against Dredge is not a reason for removal.  As a matter of fact:  I maintain that this leads to easy sideboard decisions.  You do not beat Dredge out of the maindeck anyway.  You beat Dredge by -8 cards that don't matter in the matchup, +8 graveyard destruction spells from the sideboard.

2) Oath/Tezz:  Balance may be boarded out, however...the discussion on Balance as disruption against Blue Control (which is what Iona Oath has become) is not hard to find. 
"I believe that the two most powerful cards in the deck are Trinisphere and Balance. Recent testing has once again reminded me how incredible Balance is. You can read the log of a game I played against Mike Solymossy here where Balance wrecked him, forcing him to discard all but one card from his hand and sacrifice a few lands. Balance is one of the few cards that can save you from a seemingly unwinnable position. It is Workshop’s equivalent to Yawgmoth’s Will."

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/17740_So_Many_Insane_Articles_My_250th_Article.html

Here is one of the reasons I would cite(and have cited previously):  Balance brings you back from seemingly unwinnable situations.

Another reason Balance is still decent in this matchup is because discard is simply effective against these decks.  Against Oath, my reason for including White is not solely Balance, but also Seal of Cleansing.  It is possible for Balance to be completely one-sided in spite of the deck you are playing against, I have hit blue control decks for multiple lands and cards in hand with Balance.  I have also killed Inkwell Leviathon.  I am not tooting my own horn, just asserting that these situations are possible even if this is not the optimum utilization of Balance.

I think this issue is going to end up resolving with an agreement to disagree.  I will be including Balance.

[Will]

TheShop I have a few qualms with what you have said as your argument.  First and foremost you list situations such as this for evidence:

Here is one of the reasons I would cite(and have cited previously):  Balance brings you back from seemingly unwinnable situations.

Another reason Balance is still decent in this matchup is because discard is simply effective against these decks.  Against Oath, my reason for including White is not solely Balance, but also Seal of Cleansing.  It is possible for Balance to be completely one-sided in spite of the deck you are playing against, I have hit blue control decks for multiple lands and cards in hand with Balance.  I have also killed Inkwell Leviathon.  I am not tooting my own horn, just asserting that these situations are possible even if this is not the optimum utilization of Balance.

Almost all of your Balance situations involve you coming back from unwinnable situations or actually resolving the spell.  The way that you seem to be playing your tutors which is the only reasonable way you would be getting Balance is flawed.  Just what I do, but generally if my opponent has a Dark Confidant or an Inkwell is by tutoring for a proper answer; Triskelion and Sundering Titan specifically answer both cards rather well or even Tinker for either does the trick if you are low on mana.  Your statements resolve around your catchall resolving in situations when you are behind in cards.  Most competent opponents would not let a devastating threat resolve especially if it is in the late game where these situations seem to occur.  Also, as Prospero stated you generally have more lands and creatures than your opponents.  Cards in hand is debatable but still not likely.  As a whole, you listed extremely narrow situations that don't seem to be likely or you were simply holding the Balance which again is very rare since it is restricted.  I guess my point is that 5cStax already plays enough catchalls that Balance does not warrant a spot when you generally have more resources than your opponent and will not likely resolve Balance against a Blue opponent at all let alone when they have more cards in hand than you do at the very least. 

[Marske]

I would like to remind everybody in this thread that this discussion is about B/R Stax, talking about the use of balance in Stax can be done in a seperate topic as this build clearly can't support it, nor are you guys discussing if it should.

Marske

[TheShop]

I noticed recently that one of Vroman's B/R builds ran several copies of Jester's Cap in the board.  Are other Stax players finding this to be an effective board option against Oath?

[Neonico]

I really tried alot of options (Maze of Ith, ensnaring bridge, etc....) and yes, it's by far the best option with duppliquant.

[voltron00x]

Yesterday I played against Vroman-style Oath once, and sided like this:

Out: -1 Darkblast, -4 Bob, -1 Vamp,  -1 Cabal Pit, -2 Null Rod

In:  +3 Gargadon, +4 Leyline, +1 Helm of Obedience, +1 Chalice of the Void

Leyline in play turns off their combo plan, Helm gives you an alternate quick-win condition and is obviously good against them in general, and 4 Chalice and 3 Gargs are fantastic.  I lost G1 due to a misplay, but was in command for both games 2 & 3.

Yesterday, first time playing Shops, I went 2-2 before scooping rd 5 to give a teammate a shot at T8.
Although the result wasn't what I was hoping for, the rounds I lost were very close (both came down to a G3) and I'd definitely play this deck again.

[personalbackfire]

@ voltron

Being the Oath pilot:  I obv boarded the Dragons in that matchup, so the leylines should not have hurt as much as they did. It really hurt my get ahead Will plan and the Sacred Ground which did nothing. I think game 2 would have been close had you not had them.

[Twaun007]

After some time to adjusting to the current meta-game I made some changes to the deck.

BRTwaunstax

4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Cabal Pit
4 Badlands
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained mire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
3 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Smokestack
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Tangle Wire
1 Trinisphere
2 Null Rod
2 Gorilla Shaman
4 Joblin Welder
4 Dark Confidant

I decided to cut the Crucible of Worlds down from three to two. It seems with the rise of the The Deck and Stephen Q. Menendian’s five step program to deck designing everyone has been running mana heavy decks or a crap ton of basics. I believe this has made Stax’s reliance on Crucible Wasteland recursion less effective against the decks we’re trying to beat. The card drawing that Dark Confidant nets and filtering that Bazaar of Baghdad provides is also a reason I have cut them down to two. You should milling through at least half of the deck in every game, so you're bound to see them.

I have also been trying a split of two Gorilla Shaman and two Null Rods. When I was running three Null Rods there were several games when my opponent would drop their hand of Moxen, Tops, and other artifacts to negate the soot counters on my Smokestack. Shaman is the only solution to this problem that I have found outside of Powder Keg. Shaman also plays an important role against the Workshop mirror. Having cut the third Crucible of Worlds I found that you need a way to gain and maintain a dominant board position. Gorilla Shaman does this and compliments Goblin Welder in maintaining Welder superiority.  

Gorilla Shaman also helps get rid of Oath's side boarded Pithing Needles on GG or Welder.

I still am unsure of the anti Oath board. I'm still testing multiple Jester Caps and Greater Gargadon. I just can't find the optimum mix of the two. The Leyline of the Void and Helm of Obedience combo has been surprisingly strong out of the board as well.

Current Side Boards.

4 Leyline of the Void
1 Helm of Obedience
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Maze of Ith
2 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Yixlid Jailer
2 Jesters Cap

4 Jesters Cap
3 Greater Gargadon
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Tormods Crypt
2 Ensnaring Bridge(I still think this sucks)

Rakdos Man Plan Board

2 Viashino Heretic
3 Yixlid Jailer
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Rack and Ruin
4 Relic of Progenitus
2 Extirpate

[Valorale]

I have also been trying a split of two Gorilla Shaman and two Null Rods. When I was running three Null Rods there were several games when my opponent would drop their hand of Moxen, Tops, and other artifacts to negate the soot counters on my Smokestack.

I figure regardless of null rod your opponent is going to drop the moxes just to have a shield against smokestack. Applying the same rationale you used for crucible for worlds which feels like a "I would like to get this card but it isnt important to get it right off the bat and im bound to run into it eventually"; are you finding that TimeVault/Key to be easier to handle either by other means (such as chalice @1) or less prevalent that you can let null rod show up later in the game and remain relevant?

[vassago]

Not that I am an expert on this deck, but I would cut the two null rods for key/vault.  What do you think Twaun? Then you can cut Shaman number two for crucible number three.  This could be awful, but it seems legit. 

[Pitlord]

Not that I am an expert on this deck, but I would cut the two null rods for key/vault.  What do you think Twaun? Then you can cut Shaman number two for crucible number three.  This could be awful, but it seems legit. 

As far as I know this approach was tested in earlier versions of the deck. Some versions did not feature null rod in favor of the power of key vault and used tutors including vamp, demonic and entomb IIRC. The problem with this strategy, in my opinion is the number of cards needed to cut besides null rods to make keyvault really useful, since Vamp and demonic become must-haves at the least. This dilutes your core strategy and gives you cards that are dead on their own, which is terrible for a deck with as light a draw engine as BRStax that relies on every card to be at least decent on its own.

Finally, I really like the new list and agree with basically every change. I've been playing more gorilla shamans and fewer crucibles in every stax list I've been playing lately and have been consistently quite pleased.

[Blue Lotus]

I wonder if Skeletal Scrying can be used instead of or maybe in conjunction with Bob.  Obviously it works really well with Bazaar and Smokestack and it being an instant is relevant with upkeep triggers.  I prefer to draw cards and though bob does do it steadily, a burst is especially awesome.  I don't think poor synergy with welder would be a problem due to the redundancy of artifacts in the deck.  Also you can set chalice at anything and still feasibly cast the card.  One of the main knocks on sks is that it isn't blue and this clearly isn't a problem in this deck.  

A problem could arise with shop, bazaar and null rod out that not enough mana can be generated.  But I would argue that a sks for even 2-3 could be amazing, add bazaar and you are seeing 5-6 cards in a turn.

Basically I think sks is a great outlet for mana you are tapping down in upkeep, and a much better topdeck than bob in the late game (in theory).  At cmc of one, it works great with bob too.  

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

I wonder if Skeletal Scrying can be used instead of or maybe in conjunction with Bob.  Obviously it works really well with Bazaar and Smokestack and it being an instant is relevant with upkeep triggers.  I prefer to draw cards and though bob does do it steadily, a burst is especially awesome.  I don't think poor synergy with welder would be a problem due to the redundancy of artifacts in the deck.  Also you can set chalice at anything and still feasibly cast the card.  One of the main knocks on sks is that it isn't blue and this clearly isn't a problem in this deck.  

A problem could arise with shop, bazaar and null rod out that not enough mana can be generated.  But I would argue that a sks for even 2-3 could be amazing, add bazaar and you are seeing 5-6 cards in a turn.

Basically I think sks is a great outlet for mana you are tapping down in upkeep, and a much better topdeck than bob in the late game (in theory).  At cmc of one, it works great with bob too.  

Dark Confidant is good because it costs 1B (even under Thorn), is a permanent, beats for 2, and with a deck like Stax will probably draw you at least 5+ cards over the course of the game.  Skeletal Scrying is horrible in Stax because it does none of the above (good luck drawing 5 cards off a single Scrying without Academy).  Modern-day Stax can simply not afford to spend more than 2 mana on any non-artifact spell, unless that spell wins the game (like Tinker-->Titan in 5c builds).

Furthermore, what would you cut for Scrying?  Every card in the deck is either a Bazaar, a Welder, a Bob, a lock piece, or a mana source.

I decided to cut the Crucible of Worlds down from three to two. It seems with the rise of the The Deck and Stephen Q. Menendian’s five step program to deck designing everyone has been running mana heavy decks or a crap ton of basics. I believe this has made Stax’s reliance on Crucible Wasteland recursion less effective against the decks we’re trying to beat. The card drawing that Dark Confidant nets and filtering that Bazaar of Baghdad provides is also a reason I have cut them down to two. You should milling through at least half of the deck in every game, so you're bound to see them.

In addition to the reasons that you have mentioned, I think that it's important to note that Crucible is less important in B/R than in 5c or in Mono R.  5c often needs Cow to support Stack, because it runs fewer permanents, while this deck is all permanents and draws double with Bob, so feeding Stack, even without Cow, should not be a problem.  Mono R doesn't run Dark Confidant so it relies on Crucible to mitigate the drawback of Bazaar, and to kill via Barbarian Ring recursion; since Bob draws extra and Beats for 2, it serves both of these purposes.

[TheJesus]

Off topic quite a bit, but I'm a bit drunk:

Thanks to my rhyme invention, I've ascended the heavens
did I fail to mention got more ice than the March of Penguins

I drop Smokestacks like B-52's drop bombs

My Bob is seldom late
I drop spheres like I got eight
Stax is my contreception--
barbed wires in duodenum.

Search a lands cuz you got none.
Out think like Menendian.
Ask about rules like a noob.
My monkey eats mox like food.

EDIT: Wow, I was really drunk.

[Twaun007]

Off topic quite a bit, but I'm a bit drunk:

Thanks to my rhyme invention, I've ascended the heavens
did I fail to mention got more ice than the March of Penguins

I drop Smokestacks like B-52's drop bombs

My Bob is seldom late
I drop spheres like I got eight
Stax is my contreception--
barbed wires in duodenum.

Search a lands cuz you got none.
Out think like Menendian.
Ask about rules like a noob.
My monkey eats mox like food.

EDIT: Wow, I was really drunk.

This is probably the best post I've read in regard to the BRstax Primer.

[vroman]

With two Moxmonkeys, surely Mana Crypt is better than Pearl/Saphire/Emerald.

I do not understand the appeal of Relic over Tormod. If you need to remove their graveyard, usually its to avoid losing the game. So the cantrip has got to be worth sacrificing, in order to not need 2 colorless available. When its an emergency, free is better than maintaining card parity, especially in a Bazaar+Dconf deck that can stay in the game with low/no hand count.

Respectfully, I can't help thinking that willingness to play <4 Bazaar indicates less than full understanding how to abuse the card.

Lastly, you have black mana and Trinisphere, but no Vamp Tutor? It costs one. Too good.

[TheShop]

My favorite part of the entire B/R concept is the fact that BazaarStax player are comming to grips with the power of playing with Trinisphere and/or Strip Mine every game.  Evidently the "tutors take up lock component slots" concept has finally become outdated.

PS- if drawing cards ever becomes a viable part of blue decks again, I cannot wait to see a version of this deck that includes Chains!

[beder]

With two Moxmonkeys, surely Mana Crypt is better than Pearl/Saphire/Emerald.

I do not understand the appeal of Relic over Tormod. If you need to remove their graveyard, usually its to avoid losing the game. So the cantrip has got to be worth sacrificing, in order to not need 2 colorless available. When its an emergency, free is better than maintaining card parity, especially in a Bazaar+Dconf deck that can stay in the game with low/no hand count.

Respectfully, I can't help thinking that willingness to play <4 Bazaar indicates less than full understanding how to abuse the card.

Lastly, you have black mana and Trinisphere, but no Vamp Tutor? It costs one. Too good.

Vampiric tutor or even demonic consultation.
With such a redundant deck, I feel like consultation should be an incredible tutor. Being able to access directly and only for one black to the "one piece of the 4-of-disruption package" that will be the most "game changing" is IMO very powerful. Surely, you won't be able to safely get the "strip or trinisphere" but you still can get most of the major pieces.

[Doomsday]

I don't play this deck, but they probably play Relic over Crypt to dodge Dredge's Chalice at 0 and also their own Chalice at 0 in other matchups where graveyard is relevant, right?

[Twaun007]

With two Moxmonkeys, surely Mana Crypt is better than Pearl/Saphire/Emerald.

The man curve in BRstax being so low I have never missed Mana Crypt or Mana Vault. I know I’m going to get flak for this, but I don’t think it is worth the multiple lighting bolts to the dome for the extra mana.

I do not understand the appeal of Relic over Tormod. If you need to remove their graveyard, usually its to avoid losing the game. So the cantrip has got to be worth sacrificing, in order to not need 2 colorless available. When its an emergency, free is better than maintaining card parity, especially in a Bazaar+Dconf deck that can stay in the game with low/no hand count.

I don't play this deck, but they probably play Relic over Crypt to dodge Dredge's Chalice at 0 and also their own Chalice at 0 in other matchups where graveyard is relevant, right?

This. I have also had long conversations with JACO about the utility/value of Relic over Tormod’s Crypt. Relic has just tested and performed better.

Respectfully, I can't help thinking that willingness to play <4 Bazaar indicates less than full understanding how to abuse the card.

I understand your feelings on Bazaar and I know you believe that it should be a four of or zero. The problem is Bazaar in BRstax doesn’t function exactly the same way it did in UbaStax or TKstax.. Those decks relied on Bazaar to feed Uba Mask, feed the graveyard, and filter redundant cards. The thing is BRstax doesn’t rely on UbaMask to drop multiple lock components. It drops multiple lock pieces through Dark Confidant instead of Uba Mask. This slightly changes the importance and use of Bazaar. Believe me, if I wasn't running Dark Confidant I would be running quad lazer Bazaar of Baghdads.

Lastly, you have black mana and Trinisphere, but no Vamp Tutor? It costs one. Too good.

With so much redundancy in the deck I haven't found the need for tutors. UbaStax, TKstax., and Mono Red Stax didn't run any tutors. Is it because the decks are so redundant and have four Bazaar of Baghdads to abuse? Imagine if TK's build ran Badlands instead of Taiga? Would there be room for the tutor package? Better yet, would it even be needed?

I also think that two Sphere’s are better than a single Trinisphere(outside of turn one). I'm not saying Trinisphere isn't busted I’d just rather have Rebuild and friends cost more than three.


EDIT: I'll post more about the Bazaar of Baghdad issue later. I just have other obligations at hand right now.

[Nastaboi]

I like 3rd Ring effect in place of a Badland. SB cards I mostly want are red or colorless anyways, Tabernacle in particular was sweet. I'd play Mana Crypt if I had room. My SB plan against Oath has been to ignore it and I have yet to lose a match against it. I'd go with 3 Gargadons if I suspected heavy Oath meta, along with Mazes if I still have then.

But with Lodestone Golem around, I think we have to rethink if this one is the best approach to Shop archtype or is more aggressive version better. I have already played similar BR list with just Juggies instead of Stacks and had positive results.

[zeus-online]

I do not understand the appeal of Relic over Tormod. If you need to remove their graveyard, usually its to avoid losing the game. So the cantrip has got to be worth sacrificing, in order to not need 2 colorless available. When its an emergency, free is better than maintaining card parity, especially in a Bazaar+Dconf deck that can stay in the game with low/no hand count.

I don't play this deck, but they probably play Relic over Crypt to dodge Dredge's Chalice at 0 and also their own Chalice at 0 in other matchups where graveyard is relevant, right?

This. I have also had long conversations with JACO about the utility/value of Relic over Tormod’s Crypt. Relic has just tested and performed better.

I don't get it...I would think that the welder recursion aspect of tormod's crypt would make it better then relic? I can see the advantages of costing more then Zero (Chalice) and the cantrip effect, but they all seem minor compared to welder recurssion.

[Prospero]

I do not understand the appeal of Relic over Tormod. If you need to remove their graveyard, usually its to avoid losing the game. So the cantrip has got to be worth sacrificing, in order to not need 2 colorless available. When its an emergency, free is better than maintaining card parity, especially in a Bazaar+Dconf deck that can stay in the game with low/no hand count.

I don't play this deck, but they probably play Relic over Crypt to dodge Dredge's Chalice at 0 and also their own Chalice at 0 in other matchups where graveyard is relevant, right?

This. I have also had long conversations with JACO about the utility/value of Relic over Tormod’s Crypt. Relic has just tested and performed better.

I don't get it...I would think that the welder recursion aspect of tormod's crypt would make it better then relic? I can see the advantages of costing more then Zero (Chalice) and the cantrip effect, but they all seem minor compared to welder recurssion.

In defense of Twaun, there is nothing more frustrating than staring at an opposing Chalice 0 that is holding down your Tormod's Crypt.  Relic is a guaranteed full yard removal spell.  I never looked at it for the card advantage - I chose it despite the removal of my yard because knowing that my hate was going to be relevant was more important to me.

That said, as the Dredge decks in the format drop their Chalices, I think there's a strong push to move to Tormod's Crypt.

[madmanmike25]

UbaStax, TKstax., and Mono Red Stax didn't run any tutors. Is it because the decks are so redundant and have four Bazaar of Baghdads to abuse?

No, it's because those decks don't run any lands that can produce black mana. 

It would be foolish to suggest a deck add those cards with only a Jet and a Lotus to support them.  I would say that NOT running DT and Vamp makes the deck not quite as good as it potentially could be.  It's not really a matter of playstyle or preference; tutors (and Will, though not really relevent here) are the main reason people typically include B mana.  You need to find the balance between consistency and brokenness.

Relic can be used early, slowly, to put pressure on your opponent, as well as wipe out yards later when it counts.  I think if you can't get 2 mana to cast and activate Reilc you are probably already losing...

[blackice]

Hey. I am start out new in Vintage and wanted to try something new so I am trying out the BR Stax.  Something I wanted to know if there would be ever a time where you should have more than one Smokestacks out at the same time.  Also, how far out should you ramp Smokestacks with the soot counters? Sacing more than one permanent per turn seems risky and I know the board position would play heavily into the decision.

Any help would be appreciated.  Thanks!

[scifiantihero]

The answer to the the smokestack question, is (you are right) completely dependent on game state.   Some basic things:

-Look for how it's interacting with your other cards.  Tanglewires, crucibles, welders, and sphere effects all enhance the asymmetry of a smokestacks.

-Make sure you're in a good position to benefit from it.  Ramping it up to clear the board when you're 'behind' might not be the best play if they end up in an even stronger position after the dust clears.

-Look out for tricks (stifle, instant speed artifact kill, etc,) that can mess up a plan.  If you're playing fish, it might be best not to ramp it up, for example.

As far as having multiples out, unless your opponent is threatening to put them in your graveyard with a possible deed. rank and ruin, or something similar, playing a second one probably won't hurt you(as long as there isn't something better to be done with the mana!). At that point, you're probably on your way to winning the game, though.

[Bill Copes]

Hey. I am start out new in Vintage and wanted to try something new so I am trying out the BR Stax.  Something I wanted to know if there would be ever a time where you should have more than one Smokestacks out at the same time.  Also, how far out should you ramp Smokestacks with the soot counters? Sacing more than one permanent per turn seems risky and I know the board position would play heavily into the decision.

Any help would be appreciated.  Thanks!

This should answer your questions:

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=39546.0

[InfectedMushroom]

As far as having multiples out, unless your opponent is threatening to put them in your graveyard with a possible deed. rank and ruin, or something similar, playing a second one probably won't hurt you(as long as there isn't something better to be done with the mana!). At that point, you're probably on your way to winning the game, though.

Don't forget though, cards in hand that are redundant can be used to dig deeper into your deck with Bazaar of Baghdad.

[blackice]

Also, is it fairly common to have 0-2 cards in hand while running this deck?  During testing, I usually find myself playing most of the cards out to setup the lock but then getting stuck in top deck mode.