Bloodghasted Ichorid Primer- Looking to the future

[voltron00x]

Well after not ever paying the hardcast cost of FKZ, I totally missed on it's cost.  Yes FKZ does cost 4 and is not recursable by Sun Titan.  Please disregard my comments on how Sun Titan can get the FKZ, but my analysis of what Dredge wants to do in games 1 vs games 2/3 is still valid (imho). I am not sure how Sun Titan helps you fight the hate in games 2 & 3, since often times in 2/3 you board out your Dread Returns.

meadbert already said that it doesn't help you in games 2 and 3.

One of the interesting things about Shaarum/Titan lists is the massive amount of free space you get to bring in most of your board for games 2/3. For Shaarum alone, you side in 3 of him, 2 Altar/Portal, 2 Black Lotus/LED, 0-3 Dread Return, and some number of Fatestichers. This allows you to bring in most of your board (9 cards at least, maybe up to 12/13), not removing any dredgers/Ichorids. That makes it very easy to board, and you can even have a FKZ in the sideboard that you can bring in for a different sort of kill.

I still like Shaarum over Titan, but that's just me.

Re: sideboarding, there's some truth to that, but most Dredge decks aren't too hard to sideboard; the ones that I've played this year, you just swap out disruption for anti-hate against most people.  The disruption is really there to help you "race" also, it's just a different take on it than actual racing like the Sharuum deck.

[voltron00x]

Also, just wanted to say that Dredge is one of the only decks that has had sustained and continuous discussion on this board for the last year plus.  I think that's pretty cool.

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya,

I took second place in a small tournament here in Kentucky yesterday.  Here’s the list I played:

Lands:
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Undiscovered Paradise
3 City of Brass
2 Dakmor Salvage

Artifacts:
4 Serum Powder

Enchantments:
4 Bridge From Below

Spells:
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
1 Ancient Grudge

Dredgers:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Darkblast

Non-Dredge Creatures
4 Bloodghast
4 Narcomoeba
4 Fatestitcher
3 Ichorid
2 Flame-kin Zealot
1 Sun Titan

Sideboard:
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Nature’s Claim
4 Pithing Needle
2 Darkblast
1 City of Brass

I lost in the finals to a Helm of the Void combo deck.  Game 1 he had Leyline and Wasteland.  Game two he had double Leyline.  Yeah, so anyway, here are my thoughts.

Regarding GenCon:  I would not play this version at GenCon.  This deck is built for absolute speed, and I blew out every opponent by turn 3 and never lost a single game until the finals.  However, the GenCon crowd will be prepared for Ichorid since it is so cheap to build.  Therefore, the lists packing max disruption like Chalice, Unmask, and Leyline of Sanctity are probably going to do the best.

Regarding Sun Titan:  I loved having Sun Titan in the deck.  Twice he scored me a turn 2 victory.  I like him way better than the Sharuum Combo, especially at GenCon where Null Rods will be all over the place.  He’s a big body, with Vigilance, that will give you two Landfall activations in the same turn.  One game, I played a land, brought 3 Bloodghasts into play, sac’ed them to bring Titan in play.  Put a Bazaar in play, and brought them all back.  I had no Fatestichers in the graveyard at the time, so he gave me my second Bazaar activation that turn.  He is really strong in this deck, and should be considered.

Regarding my Sideboard:  This is the weakest part of my game.  The 4 Pithing Needles didn’t do anything for me.  Either I won before it was necessary to play them for Time Vault or Crypt, or I never got them in my hand.  I’ll probably replace them with Leyline of Sanctity.

Peace,

-Troy

[Adan]

I was goldfishing with Sun Titan today and he's definitely better than Cephalid Sage/Sphinx of Lost Truths since he offers you an additional Bazaar activation which is less than the Sage/Sphinx trigger can dredge, but he triggers Landfall again to bring back the Bloodghasts you sacced for DRing him and therefore it will always be guaranteed that you have more than enough fuel for Dread Return (you could then also win with a single Bridge, assuming you dredge so poorly). I also like that he's a 6/6 obesity with vigilance, that can be useful against all kinds of random aggrodecks. I also think that he allows you to neglect Dakmor Salvage in the maindeck. But i'm not really sure about it, my opponents always scooped on me before I could to the real broken shit with Salvage...

Anyway, as for the list above, I am a bit speechless about the sideboard, 4 Needles are a bit strange, where are the Unmasks, without them it's very hard to combat Ravenous Traps.

[BruiZar]

Nice to know that Sun Titan is doing well. So now we have FKZ Dredge, Sharuum Sharuum, and... STD

[TheBrassMan]

I won a mox event with dredge a few weekends back.  I didn't play Sun Titan, but I didn't get the feeling I would have wanted it.  It seems to ask just a little bit more of your decklist and your graveyard than I wanted from a Dread Return target.  In the matchups where he would be clearly stronger than Iona (like against shops), Dread Return is particularly difficult to play.  I ran Leyline of Sanctity in the sideboard.  It was irrelevant, but didn't get boarded in much/only started in play once, so the jury's still out there.

[Valorale]

Can someone explain to me how Serenity works in Dredge. I understand that you bring it in to get around Chalice, and its particularly devestating to artifact decks. But how do you cast it out from under more than 1 sphere effect? Coming up with 3 mana in dredge in dredge is difficult enough as it is.

[meadbert]

I generally do not play Serenity so I am out of my element here, but I have play tested with decks with Serenity and it worked out okay.

Like you said a major reason for running it is to dodge Chalice@1 with Leyline out.

As far as getting enough mana sources:
Decks that run Serenity frequently run a relatively high number of mana sources in the main including Dakmoor Salvage and Petrified Field.
Neither gets boarded out against Shops where you also board in all of your mana.

The result is 12 or more mana producing lands and 4 Bazaars to draw into those lands so getting that second or 3rd mana source is not THAT tough.

I will say that it is tough enough that I generally opt for Wispmare to dodge Chalice@1 + Leyline.

[voltron00x]

Can someone explain to me how Serenity works in Dredge. I understand that you bring it in to get around Chalice, and its particularly devestating to artifact decks. But how do you cast it out from under more than 1 sphere effect? Coming up with 3 mana in dredge in dredge is difficult enough as it is.

Don't focus too much on it as being anti-Shops.  Think instead about playing it against this board:

Mox Jet, Mox Ruby, Pithing Needle, Leyline of the Void, Underground Sea.

[Troy_Costisick]

Can someone explain to me how Serenity works in Dredge. I understand that you bring it in to get around Chalice, and its particularly devestating to artifact decks. But how do you cast it out from under more than 1 sphere effect? Coming up with 3 mana in dredge in dredge is difficult enough as it is.

Don't focus too much on it as being anti-Shops.  Think instead about playing it against this board:

Mox Jet, Mox Ruby, Pithing Needle, Leyline of the Void, Underground Sea.

That's sort of a switch from what you said in your Primer Part 2, isn't it:

Serenity: Similarly to Echoing Truth, Serenity is useful because it can sweep multiple pieces of hate off the board. Serenity shines against Workshop decks if you have the ability to resolve it, and it can also hit multiple types of hate simultaneously.

I have to say, though, that I agree with your statement in this thread more than your statement about Shop decks.

[Valorale]

Mox Jet, Mox Ruby, Pithing Needle, Leyline of the Void, Underground Sea.

Absolutely in this scenario a resolved serenity can win you the game as that would catastrophically set back your opponent.

But assuming that is my opponents opening hand. They are a blue player with 2 cards in hand, youre about to give them 3 turns to pickup what they need while you land drop the necessary pieces to play the serenity assuming you came up with a land each turn (few decks seem to play lotus or any other acceleration). Youre really inviting the spell pierce at this moment, or worse a drain that lets them cast Tezz or Jace.

To me at least it would be better to aggressively try to get rid of the Pithing needle with a Natures Claim early while they are low on cards in hand and dig with bazaar for your next piece of hate instead of letting them potentially rebuild while you prepare for a board sweep.

But then again my dredge record is terrible, so what do I know =p

[AmbivalentDuck]

In that scenario you scoop rather than putting cards into your deck that are dead most of the time.  If you try to make every game/matchup winnable, you'll just make the overall deck weaker.  What matters is getting to the top8 and winning 2 out of 3 games in each match there.  Knowing that when the opponent draws the absolute nuts you'll have an out does not matter.  You have to:
1)Draw it.
2)Have the mana to play it.
3)It can't be countered.
4)They have to not "just win" before it comes online.

You have no tutoring, you don't want to play two lands that aren't bazaar, anything with a U Sea will have counterspells, and they can likely find Vault before you get Serenity off since you're just a goldfish once that board is down.

[voltron00x]

How is Serenity ever dead?  It’s almost always live, *that* is why it’s so good.  The fact that you’re knocking out fast mana plus multiple hate cards with one shot is really powerful.  Most post-board games have a tendency to drag out.  Go read James King’s report from the event he just won and see the game he won with beats from Bloodghast and Narc.   

I wasn’t saying that Serenity is bad against Shops, either, or contradicting what I said in the primer (“it can also hit multiple pieces of hate simultaneously”).  It seems that most people (like I did, previously) focus on it exclusively in that match-up when in reality it is a very powerful reset button for this deck against other decks as well, depending on what hate an opponent is trying to use.  It eliminates Leyline, Planar Void, Needle, Crypt, Relic, Wheel of Sun and Moon, even random splash hate like Ensnaring Bridge or Plats, while also destroying fast mana.

Maybe Jake, Mark, or Sam can contribute more, they’re the ones that keep winning all the power with that card in their SB. 

Unless we’re just all writing off the considerable anecdotal evidence?

1)Draw it.
2)Have the mana to play it.
3)It can't be countered.
4)They have to not "just win" before it comes online.

And this is different than any other answer in what way, exactly?

[Neonico]

How is Serenity ever dead?  It’s almost always live, *that* is why it’s so good.  The fact that you’re knocking out fast mana plus multiple hate cards with one shot is really powerful.  Most post-board games have a tendency to drag out.  Go read James King’s report from the event he just won and see the game he won with beats from Bloodghast and Narc.   

I wasn’t saying that Serenity is bad against Shops, either, or contradicting what I said in the primer (“it can also hit multiple pieces of hate simultaneously”).  It seems that most people (like I did, previously) focus on it exclusively in that match-up when in reality it is a very powerful reset button for this deck against other decks as well, depending on what hate an opponent is trying to use.  It eliminates Leyline, Planar Void, Needle, Crypt, Relic, Wheel of Sun and Moon, even random splash hate like Ensnaring Bridge or Plats, while also destroying fast mana.

Maybe Jake, Mark, or Sam can contribute more, they’re the ones that keep winning all the power with that card in their SB. 

Unless we’re just all writing off the considerable anecdotal evidence?

1)Draw it.
2)Have the mana to play it.
3)It can't be countered.
4)They have to not "just win" before it comes online.

And this is different than any other answer in what way, exactly?

I see alot of case where serenity is dead.... Mainly when you don't have it and 2 mana in hand. And it happens alot more than the opposite, and i don't even speack of fighting against spheres in the matchup it's the best.

[kikoo]

Go read James King’s report from the event he just won and see the game he won with beats from Bloodghast and Narc.

Link, please? :<  I can't find it.

[AmbivalentDuck]

And this is different than any other answer in what way, exactly?

Most answers don't worry about 2 and 4.  Ie. Nature's Claim does its job immediately and doesn't require us to have two non-Bazaar lands in play.

[Razvan]

And this is different than any other answer in what way, exactly?

Most answers don't worry about 2 and 4.  Ie. Nature's Claim does its job immediately and doesn't require us to have two non-Bazaar lands in play.

True, but Nature's claim usually can *only* deal with one piece of hate, OR one piece of win.

In fact, quite often you need to go through at least 2 pieces of hate, and stopping them from winning, which might require 3 separate anti-hate cards. Serenity does this for a third of the cards, and twice the initial mana.

I am not saying that Nature's Claim is inferior, it is simply two different cards doing two different things, even though they both have similarities.

[voltron00x]

Go read James King’s report from the event he just won and see the game he won with beats from Bloodghast and Narc.

Link, please? :<  I can't find it.

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=40827.0

This is game 2 in the finals:

"Game 2
John opens with a land.  I play bazaar and activate it.  I discard three dredgers and pass.  He EoT vamps.  On his next turn he plays a Jailer.  I play land go.  He attacks and does nothing else.  I play another land and hardcast narco.  he plays land go.  On my turn I play a bloodghast, and pass.  John plays land go.  I attack with bloodghast and play another narco.  John plays a land.  I play stinkweed imp. and all this leads to me attacking with hardcasted guys for the win, and the Mox Jet.  John gets a grim tutor."

[voltron00x]

And this is different than any other answer in what way, exactly?

Most answers don't worry about 2 and 4.  Ie. Nature's Claim does its job immediately and doesn't require us to have two non-Bazaar lands in play.

Decks that play Serenity have enough mana to support it post-board.  I'm not interested in debating in theory, or your understanding of how much mana you think Dredge has reliably in post-board games.  I've tested it and I've seen it used and plenty of winning decks have used it.  I'm not saying its always great - my last version had 0 b/c I'm running only 10 mana lands - but the decks that have slightly more mana can use it reliably as Meadbert stated. 

I'm not going to post on this card any more, b/c I just don't care enough to debate Serenity.  If you think its bad or un-castable, cool - don't run it.  We can still be friends.

[Killane]

And this is different than any other answer in what way, exactly?

Most answers don't worry about 2 and 4.  Ie. Nature's Claim does its job immediately and doesn't require us to have two non-Bazaar lands in play.

Decks that play Serenity have enough mana to support it post-board.  I'm not interested in debating in theory, or your understanding of how much mana you think Dredge has reliably in post-board games.  I've tested it and I've seen it used and plenty of winning decks have used it.  I'm not saying its always great - my last version had 0 b/c I'm running only 10 mana lands - but the decks that have slightly more mana can use it reliably as Meadbert stated. 

I'm not going to post on this card any more, b/c I just don't care enough to debate Serenity.  If you think its bad or un-castable, cool - don't run it.  We can still be friends.

I hope you'll make one exception to discussing this card. How many lands do you think is sufficient to support it?

[voltron00x]

And this is different than any other answer in what way, exactly?

Most answers don't worry about 2 and 4.  Ie. Nature's Claim does its job immediately and doesn't require us to have two non-Bazaar lands in play.

Decks that play Serenity have enough mana to support it post-board.  I'm not interested in debating in theory, or your understanding of how much mana you think Dredge has reliably in post-board games.  I've tested it and I've seen it used and plenty of winning decks have used it.  I'm not saying its always great - my last version had 0 b/c I'm running only 10 mana lands - but the decks that have slightly more mana can use it reliably as Meadbert stated. 

I'm not going to post on this card any more, b/c I just don't care enough to debate Serenity.  If you think its bad or un-castable, cool - don't run it.  We can still be friends.

I hope you'll make one exception to discussing this card. How many lands do you think is sufficient to support it?

Against a deck w/out Wastelands, 8-10.  Against Wastelands, you probably need more like 10-12+ so now you're in Fatestitcher / Mana Dredge territory.

[Killane]

And this is different than any other answer in what way, exactly?

Most answers don't worry about 2 and 4.  Ie. Nature's Claim does its job immediately and doesn't require us to have two non-Bazaar lands in play.

Decks that play Serenity have enough mana to support it post-board.  I'm not interested in debating in theory, or your understanding of how much mana you think Dredge has reliably in post-board games.  I've tested it and I've seen it used and plenty of winning decks have used it.  I'm not saying its always great - my last version had 0 b/c I'm running only 10 mana lands - but the decks that have slightly more mana can use it reliably as Meadbert stated. 

I'm not going to post on this card any more, b/c I just don't care enough to debate Serenity.  If you think its bad or un-castable, cool - don't run it.  We can still be friends.

I hope you'll make one exception to discussing this card. How many lands do you think is sufficient to support it?

Against a deck w/out Wastelands, 8-10.  Against Wastelands, you probably need more like 10-12+ so now you're in Fatestitcher / Mana Dredge territory.

that's what i thought, your comment regarding leaving it out due to only running 10 land is what threw me, though i suppose given the current wasteland infested metagame 10 may be a little light.

[Neonico]

I play 13 lands postboard in my Ichorid list (article on how i sideboard with dredge here, and i allmost never have 2 mana to cast serenity...

[policehq]

I play 13 lands postboard in my Ichorid list (article on how i sideboard with dredge here, and i allmost never have 2 mana to cast serenity...

Do you ever win post-SB? And do you never win with things like hardcasted Narcomoeba, Golgari Thug, and even Stinkweed Imp?

[Suicideking]

I play 13 lands postboard in my Ichorid list (article on how i sideboard with dredge here, and i allmost never have 2 mana to cast serenity...

I don't think you're playing this deck all that well after sideboard.  I regularly cast stinkweed imps and other creatures post board.  I think after you sideboard patience is vital to winning a lot of games.  Your opponent needs to keep a hand that has some hate so that often means sacrificing their gas.  There's also going to be games where they land something redic like 2 leylines and a jailer and you arent going to be able to fight through it so you need to change gears.   

[Neonico]

I play 13 lands postboard in my Ichorid list (article on how i sideboard with dredge here, and i allmost never have 2 mana to cast serenity...

I don't think you're playing this deck all that well after sideboard.  I regularly cast stinkweed imps and other creatures post board.  I think after you sideboard patience is vital to winning a lot of games.  Your opponent needs to keep a hand that has some hate so that often means sacrificing their gas.  There's also going to be games where they land something redic like 2 leylines and a jailer and you arent going to be able to fight through it so you need to change gears.   

It's funny how it's still the same kind of comment from the same people on themanadrain.... You don' do like everyone else, you do it wrong, it's kind of boring.
Of course i do have some games where I have to play the aggro mode, but when this happens, it's when i tried everything i can to deal with the hate and have been countered, so very late in the game.... I allmost never can cast something that costs 2 on turn 2, or 3 if i have a bazaar with manaless ichorid.

It's allready difficult with a 14-15 lands, mana version of the deck i played alot in Legacy/extended (and this time, with some results i can show you) and if you remind well the history of dredge deck, when Meandeck first published the list of the deck, with 15 mana lands/moxen, they played balance and/or timem wxalk, and all the players that played the deck at this time (me included, with several top8 in 80+ players tournaments in Europe) they all first cutt walk and balance saying "2 manas is too much for the deck".

[Womba]

I went 5-2 (17th place) at vintage champs and I made the finals of the following night's vintage side event for a flip camera (21 people) with the following list. I misplayed in my thrid round of vintage champs and felt I definitely could have top 8ed if I had not punted. My only losses between both events were to Oath (where I punted game 3), Two Card Monte (In the finals of the vintage side event) and TPS, (In the final round of vintage champs to Jesse Martin, who I beat in the side even in the semis the following night). I played against multiple oath decks, MUD, UGB Vault Key, and I felt this build was really strong against the field. The white leyline stole me 2 games against Oath and assited in beating a TPS deck. Overall I feel I would run the same 75 if I were playing in a tournament tomorrow. The white leyline led to some awkward situations where whom I was playing against just did not have any hate they could use, or no way they could go off with oath, which led to me switching the SB to just worrying about Jailers and black leylines. I know most people are split or undecided but after seeing it in use, for now, I would be playing with the white leyline.

2 Petrified Field
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Bloodghast
4 Narcomoeba
1 Woodfall Primus
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Dakmor Salvage
3 City of Brass
3 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
2 Nature’s Claim
2 Golgari Thug
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Bridge from Below
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
2 Ichorid
4 Serum Powder
1 Darkblast

SB
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Chain of Vapor
2 Nature's Claim
1 Ichorid
1 Darkblast
1 Contagion
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 City of Brass

[Ozymandias]

So what did your boarding look like?

[Adan]

So what did your boarding look like?

I guess the generic SB plan g2 for the standard decks is:

vs. Tezz and Oath:

- 4 Leyline of the Void
- 4 Chalice of the Void
- 2 Dread Return
- 1 Flame-Kin Zealot
- 1 Woodfall Primus
- 2 Petrified Field

+ 4 Chain of Vapor
+ 2 Nature's Claim
+ 4 Leyline of Sanctity
+ 1 Darkblast
+ 1 Contagion
+ 1 Undiscovered Paradise
+ 1 City of Brass

vs. Shops and Fish (or anything running Wasteland) I'd do this:

- 4 Leyline of the Void
- 4 Chalice of the Void
- 2 Dread Return
- 1 Flame-Kin Zealot
- 1 Woodfall Primus

+ 4 Chain of Vapor
+ 2 Nature's Claim
+ 4 Leyline of Sanctity
+ 1 Darkblast
+ 1 Ichorid

vs. Combo:

- 4 Leyline of the Void
- 4 Chalice of the Void
- 1 Woodfall Primus

+ 3 Chain of Vapor
+ 1 Nature's Claim
+ 4 Leyline of Sanctity
+ 1 Darklast

But Combo is very hard to tell, there are comboplayers who play Leyline and Jailers. And against them, I'd switch the Fields for the additional 5color Lands, but guys like Tobi play Wasteland in their sideboard because they can also inflict splash damage to Shops and slow us down drastically. But I'd keep Petrified Field in because it basically allows you to win on Turn 3 consistently.

And against every deck - except for Noble Fish or aggroshit like Goblins, Zoo or whatever may turn dudes sideways - you side back Chalice into your deck g3 and kick stuff you find unnecessary (I usually do it intuitively).
At least this is a rough draft of what I'd do. Siding the Ichorids in or out with this kind of build is very different, I am currently used to Fatestitcher Dredge where you can safely board out Ichorids against anything not running Wasteland.
Anyway, this is a rough draft of what I'd do.

[shroomy2dope]

so, i'm not a dredge player but it is definately prevailent in my meta game and im well enough versed in it's merthods to understand most of it's inner-actions.
that being said i must also say that i've delved into these threads and found nothing about tolarian winds.....

tolarian winds 1u
instant
discard your hand, then draw that many cards.

i am not a practitioner of dredge, so i'm not advocating the inclusion of tolarian winds, but this does seem like the proper place to inquire as to why i havn't heard it's merits debated.