Bloodghasted Ichorid Primer- Looking to the future

[Valorale]

Well I can say that pretty confidently because I rarely have the dread return package in my deck for game 2, sometimes I return it in game 3 depending on what they are playing. Maybe its a style of play issue, I prefer to disrupt my blue opponents with well placed unmask and cabal therapy vs trying to resolve a dread return into Iona in game 2.  I feel if I am able to resolve a dread return in game 2-3 it means my yard is filled with stuff, which means they didnt draw hate or I beat it, which means im probably winning anyways.

[GU3ST]

Last thing .. to echo Womba, I have -never- lost a game where I resolved a dread return on a FKZ, never. I have ranted and raved in the past about Iona. I simply do not understand people's obsession with putting it in dredge. I used to run an Angel of Despair in case my opponent ran moat, ensnaring bridge etc but eventually took her out because I never ran into those cards. My current list runs 1 FKZ (sometimes 2) as my dread return targets. Sometimes I pack an Angel of Despair in the board.

Of course your not gonna lose a game when you dread return Flamekin because your not going to dread return it unless you can kill your opponent

[voltron00x]

Just to re-start the conversation on Dredge, here's what I would play today if I were going to rock Dredge.  Again, this is purposefully build with the thought that MUD is enemy #1.

Serene Dredge

4 Narcomoeba
4 Bloodghast
2 Ichorid
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Natures Claim
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Serum Powder
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Dread Return
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Woodfall Primus
4 Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
1 Darkblast
2 Petrified Field
2 City of Brass
1 Dakmor Salvage
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Undiscovered Paradise

SB:
2 Darkblast
2 Nature's Claim
2 City of Brass
4 Chain of Vapor
3 Serenity
1 Petrified Field
1 Ichorid

[hitman]

I played this exact mainboard recently and it was awesome.  I never felt like I didn't have plays or was out of the game.  In round two, I played MUD and won through Leyline, Sphere and Golem.  This deck definitely has game and resilience to hate, even through Spheres.  My sideboard was different but functionally similar.  I just played Ancient Grudge in place of Serenity and the 4th Petrified Field.  I did occasionally want more mana against MUD.  Is there a specific reason there's a third Field in the board over a rainbow land like Gemstone Mine?  Nice deck.  This is my favorite deck in Vintage right now.

[Bosaapje]

Hello,

What do you guys think of this list:

Land:

4 Bazaar
4 City of Brass
4 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Dakmore Salvage
2 Petrified Field

Creature:

2 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Bloodghast
2 Ichorid
1 Protean Hulk
4 Narcomoeba
1 Sun Titan
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

Shit 'n Giggles:

4 Bridge from Below
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Darkblast
2 Nature's Claim
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Serum Powder
3 Dread Return


Sideboard:

1 Woodfall Primus
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Serenity
1 Darkblast
3 Chain of Vapor
4 Unmask

I changed the list today. These are the changes I made:

-1 Iona MB
-1 Darkblast SB
-1 Chain of Vapor SB

+1 Sun Titan
+2 Serenity

Why? Well, it's pretty obvious to me. Iona isn't that good anymore with the MUD/Staxx-invasion so I cut it for a Sun Titan. Titan can recurr my Bazaar to dredge again and really go off on that turn. Also against mono Brown, it can recur my Serenities, so I'm sure that my path will stay clear so I can go off without having to care about Spheres. I think that Serenity also better is against mono Brown than Chain of Vapor, that's why I removed one of it from my sideboard.

So, maybe you're thinking: "Why Protean Hulk". Well, I tested the card and it was really nice to Dread Return it, then flashback it with Cabal Therapy, get some Zombies, and return Flame-Kin Zealot. Unfortunatly, that didn't happen that much, so I'm going to remove it again. But now
I'm doubting about a few options.

1st option: Woodfall Primus. Yeah, it's my first choice and probably the best one because you can get rid of things. I'm pretty sure that it's the best choice. The only down I see is that it doesn't really stop combo. The "non-creature'' part isn't that bad, you just overwhelm your opponent with tokens.

2nd option: Iona. It's a good card, no doubt. Say black and almost every combo player scoops. So maybe a good sideboard card if Primus goes main. Also, it's an instant win against Dark Times.

3rd option: Angel of Despair. Okay, well, I've got Primus so why would I take Angel of Despair. To remove that one creature? It's a bit useless, because most of the times I've got enough creatures to overwhelm the opponent. Yeah, it's a good one against Lodestone Golem, but if I'm playing against mono Brown, I'll switch to the back up plan that contains Ichorid and Bloodghast.

4th option: Terastodon. Yeah, same thing as above. Only the bad part about Terastodon is that he doens't have flying or trample. So, a Bitterblossom-token can block him each turn, it's just too bad because I already run 1 Woodfall Primus sideboard (maybe mainbord and with a sac outlet it's another Primus).

5th option: Ancestor's Chosen. A good card against decks that can deal your lot's amount of damage in 1 turn, and if there's a case that I'm not gonna win this turn and they will probably kill me with lethal damage next turn, I can put that into play and hopefully survive.

Other options:

Ichord? Running a third Ichorid so I can get more tokens and have a better match up against mono Brown.
Golgari Thug? Another Dredge outlet and food for Ichorid.

Sideboard talk: What shall I do, just cut Darkblast and run 4 Chains, because I already run 1 mainboard, so I probably find it quick enough to kill a Dark Confidant or a Welder. And if I remove the Primus, what's the best thing to put back into the sideboard? An Iona against TPS/Grim Long/combo in general, or shall I take that 4th Chain of Vapor because I already have Leyline of the Void mainboard, so they won't go off that quickly on Yawgmoth's Will and just hoping that I'm faster.

So, what shall I do? Which card will I take? What do you think? What's the best solution, just take Woodfall Primus from my sideboard, move it to mainboard, or shall I take another one.


Give your opinion and give me some help with this little problem,

Cheers,

Maarten van Tol

[scipio]

Just to re-start the conversation on Dredge, here's what I would play today if I were going to rock Dredge.  Again, this is purposefully build with the thought that MUD is enemy #1.

Thanks for injecting some new ideas - appreciate your efforts to keep dredge relevant. 

I was wondering how you sideboard against MUD.  I played in the recent Rhode Island tourney, with a 1-2 loss to MUD (won game 1, loss to double Lodestone beatdown in game 2 after mull to 4 and a wasted Bazaar, loss to resistors and pithing game 3).  I think playing Sun Titan to get the Serenity into play is wishful thinking, and I agree with leaving it out.  Have you ever had a scenario in which Angel of Despair would have been better than primus (kill lodestone, oath creature, sphinx of the steel wind, or battlesphere)?  Any particular reason for maindeck Leyline of the Void - stopping welder antics?

[voltron00x]

Leyline of the Void is just still really disruptive to most Vintage decks; specifically, it is there, like Chalice of the Void, to stop blue decks from racing you using Yawg Will.  This is especially key now that many blue decks are Gush decks that have some element of "win through Tendrils" built into them.   

I think you could make a reasonable argument for playing Leyline of Sanctity main instead, but that puts you at a huge disadvantage should you have to face the mirror at all.

[hitman]

I was wondering how you sideboard against MUD.  I played in the recent Rhode Island tourney, with a 1-2 loss to MUD (won game 1, loss to double Lodestone beatdown in game 2 after mull to 4 and a wasted Bazaar, loss to resistors and pithing game 3).  I think playing Sun Titan to get the Serenity into play is wishful thinking, and I agree with leaving it out.  Have you ever had a scenario in which Angel of Despair would have been better than primus (kill lodestone, oath creature, sphinx of the steel wind, or battlesphere)?  Any particular reason for maindeck Leyline of the Void - stopping welder antics?

I board in 3-4 Ancient Grudge and 2 Nature's Claim.  I already have 2 Nature's Claim in the mainboard.  I think if you're Dread Returning, you'll be in good shape to win the game no matter what you bring in.  It's important to take out their Lodestone Golems.  If you don't kill them, MUD will slow you down long enough to kill you with Golem.  If they have no Golem, it severely hinders their ability to kill you before you kill them.  If you have 7-8 removal spells for their four Golems, you'll be in good shape to win.  The success of their sideboard cards is directly related to how long Lodestone stays on the table.  The longer he lives, the more effective their sideboard cards become.  I actually win a lot of my postboard MUD games by killing Golems and hardcasting two mana creatures.  They can play all the Spheres they want at that point.  You kind of turn into a "Fish" deck.  

I play Ancient Grudge in my board to combat artifacts like Tormod's Crypt, Relic, and Nihil Spellbomb because I can slow dredge and start beating with Ichorid and Bloodghast while they wait to get value out of their artifact.  I can either force them to pop it early or they lose a bunch of life to Ichorid/Bloodghast while I rebuild my hand to be able to discard-dredge after they pop their artifact.  Leyline of Sanctity is really hit or miss.  Do you bring it in game two and find out they're playing Leylines and/or Jailers?  Do you just wait 'til game three to bring it in.  Slow dredging and making them pop their artifacts at an inopportune time while I pick away at them with Ichorid and Bloodghast has been pretty good for me.  It allows me to continue to apply pressure, even if it's not necessarily game-breaking, and makes it easier to finish them off post Tormod's Crypt/Relic/Spellbomb.  Even if they don't have those cards, it blows up Moxes, MUD cards, Time Vault and things like that.  I like that Serenity answers a number of problems for one card but then I couldn't depend on it while slow dredging.  I can't play both because that's too many slots competing for the same role and I have to address other concerns, like Yixlid Jailer, as well.  

My sideboard was almost exactly the same as voltron's except I had 3 Ancient Grudge and 1 Gemstone Mine.  He has 3 Serenity and 1 Petrified Field.  It looks like we had the same thing in mind for MUD but went slightly different routes.  I think the list I played must have been his to begin with even though I got the list from Adan's suggestions in this thread.  I wanted another rainbow land because MUD plays Wasteland and my plan depends on me having enough mana to actually cast my spells through Spheres as best I can.  Anyway, hope that helps.

[Adan]

Leyline of the Void is just still really disruptive to most Vintage decks; specifically, it is there, like Chalice of the Void, to stop blue decks from racing you using Yawg Will.  This is especially key now that many blue decks are Gush decks that have some element of "win through Tendrils" built into them.   

I think you could make a reasonable argument for playing Leyline of Sanctity main instead, but that puts you at a huge disadvantage should you have to face the mirror at all.

Not only that, I have experienced that Leyline of the Void is also very nice to have against MUD in g1. The good MUD player will always keep a hand with Wasteland to slow you down enough to get some guy online that handles your Bridges like Karn or Trike. Stell Hellkite is a pain in the ass as well, save your Moebas to block it! But as long as you have your Bridges, you will be able to slowroll things and still win. Without Bridges you will eventually get barbecued. Same is true for all the random aggrodecks that can burn their own creatures to strip you from your Bridges. Postboard the white Leyline makes more sense here.

[Ozymandias]

If I wanted to up my G1 win percentage versus Stax, I would probably move up to 4 ichorids because then you aren't utterly reliant on getting a land in hand to win.

[Shax]

They say sometimes to get ahead in the future, you've got to take a few steps back. Why aren't people playing lots of Ichorid? I really am liking Dryad Arbor with Reverant Silence as a plan. It's a bit more ballsy, since you've got to have the Silence with Arbor. Arbor matter more to me than a precious City of Brass for a few reasons. Because if I wasn't running Silence, I'd be using something a bit less par for destroying.. *gasp!* Ichorid/Dredges biggest foe. Enchantments. Leyline is the 100% fool proof answer to Dredge right now. So running Silence and Nature's Claim seems pretty good. They both function with Arbor. My biggest beef with Arbor is that it has summoning sickness. So if per say the opponent drops Lodestone Golem, your going to have to take a face beat before you can, or if you ever will be able to cast the Reverant Silence. Atleast Reverant Silence solves the problem of mana for Dredge somewhat. The life gain is a small worry, in both cases for the cards we have to use. Hell, City of Brass is only helping a tendrils player. And we got lucky with Paradise being so good with Bloodghast like it is. 

Arbor can beat a players face. As much as this is a weener, I'm thinking this is going to be a valid point. It also gives us a land that sacrifices to Cabal Therapy, and gives us tokens for our troubles. It just seems like to me if we're going to gamble a 'lil'' bit on dredge, I'd go for broke until something significant in the game of magic stops dredge for good.
Arbor also is a dread return target, which is great.

[Ozymandias]

Summoning sickness is bigger than huge as a problem, IMO. If you really wanted to run non-rainbow lands, I would start with 4 Bayou, which allows you to cast Nature's Claim, Reverent Silence, Darkblast, Ancient Grudge,  Ray of Revelation, and Emerald Charm (Not exactly Chain of Vapor, but playable). Probably, you end up with something like

4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest (Might as well try to beat wasteland?)
4 Bazaar of Baghdad

Still not so much better than rainbow lands, which also RECUR BLOODGHAST.

[meadbert]

The main issue is Yixlid Jailer.

During the Flash era everyone ran Leyline to fight both Dredge and Flash and thus Jailer was fairly uncommon.
This allowed Dredge decks to risk Jailer and just run Reverent Silence and Dryad Arbor.
Now, without Flash, Leyline is less prevalent and Jailer is more prevalent and without access to Chain of Vapor or Darkblast you pretty much autolose to Jailer.
A couple of Contagions give you a chance to get lucky, but they are not a viable strategy in a meta with significant numbers of Jailers.

Also, Dredge was racing more combo decks and was slower.  Bloodghast did not exist so Arbor was frequently the difference between a turn 2 or turn 3 Dread REturn which might be the difference between racing Flash or GAT.  Now, with Bloodghast, Dredge decks can already Dread Return on turn 2 fairly regularly, thus Arbor does little to speed up the clock.

Post board, Arbor can slow down the clock since it has summoning sickness so you cannot play Nature's claim till turn 3 which severely delays you win.  That extra turn of Bazaaring makes all the difference.

[Razvan]

I have run BG Ichorid for about 2 years, and I can safely say that i ran it more than most people if not all people. I definitely liked to have 3-4 Dryad Arbors in it, in addition to the Bayous/Catacombs (4/1-2 i believe), and of course 4 Undiscovered Paradise/1-2 Dakmor Salvage/1-2 Petrified Field.

I can echo meadbert's statement that it currently is not the most optimal build. You do support Darkblasts and Contagions, but not having 4 Chain of Vapor is the main difference.

That's not to say it's not a good build, you rely less on Ichorid, and I personally like it more given how much I played it. I had 2 Darkblasts and 3-4 Claims maindeck, and the rest was a sideboard like this:

2 Darkblasts
2 Contagion
0-1 Claim
3 Reverent Silence
4 Unmask
whatever else

It's definitely slower and more sturdy. It's not like Dryad Arbors suddenly make you immune to graveyard hate, but there were quite a few occasions where my opponent fanned open a hand with 2 leylines, a crypt and a Jailer, and blanked for the next 5-6 turns, while i attacked with 2 Arbors and a Golgari Thug or something. This is still a deck that can draw 3 cards each turn to look for more creatures/discard if opposing decks gimp themselves like they are quite willing to do.

Ironically, the more hate the opponents bring, the less effective they become. A slow creature attack supported by anti hate like your own Leylines, Chalices and hand/artifact destruction.

Your deck doesn't really lose much by adding all these hate cards, you can still Bazaar for a few turns into 5-6 power worth of creatures on your side and just let them draw useless crap. If unstopped, of course, you blow them out of the water.

Losing CoVapor hurts a lot, but the rest goes a long way to make up for the rest.

Post board, Arbor can slow down the clock since it has summoning sickness so you cannot play Nature's claim till turn 3 which severely delays you win.  That extra turn of Bazaaring makes all the difference.

You will lose a turn of Bazaaring, correct, but you don't lose any turns in dredging if you play Arbor first turn and Bazaar the next turn. You simply lose Draw-2, because the Claim will hit a Crypt or a Leyline which means your GY is empty anyway.

[Shax]

Then what do you suggest as ways to fight the very hated Jailer? Darkblast. Check. Contagion. Check. Chain of Vapor. Check. Besides those three cards what else would you plan on fighting one of the next best cards to play against Dredge with? I never like Darkblast, even though it's a dredger so it can replace stuff like Thug postboard. Contagion is good because even if your trying to get lucky with it, it's the same as Unmask, as far as being lucky with it goes. But Contagion can give you a two for two. Take out mulptiple Jailers(Value!).

Okay, better yet I'll say almost retract all of that previous statement, but first look at this list and give me some thought.

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Undiscovered Paradise (These two are automatic 8 of in any of my list.)
2 Petrified Field
2 City of Brass
(SB: Has 2 City of Brass)
THIS is my main problem with dredge. What in the world is the pristine number of lands to run for this format? I really like Field now because of MUD and Fish. Is 14 lands the correct number? Or can we slide with 7 rainbow lands, or just 1 Petrified Field and call it a day to have the 8 rainbow lands.

Creatures
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Bloodghast
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
1 Flame-kin Zealot

Spells
4 Bridge From Below
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
4 Serum Powder

Rest of the Sideboard not including the 2 City of Brass
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Nature's Claim
2 Darkblast
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Ancient Grudge

Now, here are the rest of my questions. Should I run Dakmoor Salvage in a spot over a Petrified Field and or Rainbow land? It is a dredger sure, but I would rather run maximum Golgari Thug since like mentioned earlier, feeds Ichorid. Ichorid really is the MVP more often than not, which makes Dredge even a bit more deceiving. When I mean deceiving, I think that most players aren't 100% on their game to fight Dredge and will make more mistakes against the Pillar in Vintage more than any other.  I'm being honest when I think Dredge is on the level of Top Tier( Combo, Certain kinds of Gush, Doomsday, Creative) to be able to have the most success. It's like Combo, many people don't play it. The results show for themselves though for a player that is capable of using the decks curves like TPS to a high placed victory. I think Ichorid is the same way. Except, your 75 in Ichorid have spots prefilled. You just have to know the dedicated slots for sure.

I know Chain of Vapor is there to stay, since it is amazing versus hate. Nature's Claim is the same. Darkblast is there to switch with something like Thug and still leave me in good shape for Jailer. Ray of Revelation and Ancient Grudge I have questions about. For two mana should'nt I just go ahead and play Serenity? I know they are instants, and have valuable flashback. But if I'm bringing in these cards against say something like Leyline of the Void which is rfging my shit anyways, I should just forget about Ray of Revelation in that sense. Since it won't never hit the yard to get the flashback. I can see more use in say Ancient Grudge, since artifacts are one and done effects except for Pithing Needle and Revoker. So what does the community think? Don't mis count, this is only 59 cards and a 14 card sideboard. I'm just wondering what would be the perfect land count, and what if any should I replace Grudge and Revelation with. Also, Petrified Fields and Dakmor Salvage seem to become useless  games two and three, with Salvage still having value for dredge, land drop, and black mana. But Field's use is completely decided on Wasteland or Strip Mine(--->land destruction)..

So is it smart just to not run these seemingly bad cards? Because Field is only helping get extra mana to fight spheres, and Salvage is more like Dryad Arbor, but 100% different in that your able to cheat a land back into your hand during the draw step to get back all those sweet Bloodghast. Which *****could***** win you the game. Notice the 5 stars. I know Salvage has won me games just because it's our only dredge land. But is it worth it when your most***(notice) likely going to win game one. And then game two mulligan to a two land hand, which happens to be lucky you with the salvage, lets say bazaar, serenity or some 2 mana answer to problems. Now when you really need the win to finish the match or if your down in the shitter try and go to a game three grudge match, your forced to play into your opponents better threats since Salvage is going to be tapped. I just want peoples opinons on this. I know it's a good card, but how good compared to other options? Like if I'm going to fill my maindeck with lands I'm only using for Bloodghast anyways, it makes sense to use Salvage then. But then again it makes me a hypocrite to say that if I'm going to play a land for Bloodghast, I usually would just want it in my hand already and would much rather it be a rainbow land like Paradise or even Fields.

The last question, what is the purpose of Leyline of Sanctity in a Dredge sideboard? It's effects are broad and narrow to some other cards in magic, but what are you protecting yourself from with it on the table that is going to target you? Tormod's Crypt and Nihil Spellbomb are the things are come to mind. But Nihil is being marginally played. I worry more about cards that I can't protect myself from, like Ravenous Trap(*!!!!!). Besides a lucky Cabal Therapy I have no chance against this. Is Unmask the perfect answer to these threats, artifact and or Trap, but as a plus it handles Jailer or a win condition of theres. Unmask makes you have to exile good black cards, which is a downer too.. Okay, I kind've answered my own question just by looking at Ravenous Trap. So Leyline of Sanctity answers about four cards that are brought in against dredge. Trap, Relic of Progenitus to a extent, and Tormod's Crypt+ Nihil Spellbomb. Does it take care of any others?

[Ozymandias]

It stops a bunch of combo decks from just t1 or t2ing you without any bother. In fact, with any two of your 12 0-mana hate pieces on the table, they are going to have big issues--LoTV stops Will, Chalice stops Moxen, and Sanctity stops Tendrils.

[Stormanimagus]

Ummm. . . why does everyone consistently leave out Firestorm when coming up with answers to Jailer. 2-3 Firestorm in the SB is the beez neez against Jailer because you can kill multiples while enabling your yard for Dredge the next turn.

-Storm

[meadbert]

Ummm. . . why does everyone consistently leave out Firestorm when coming up with answers to Jailer. 2-3 Firestorm in the SB is the beez neez against Jailer because you can kill multiples while enabling your yard for Dredge the next turn.

-Storm

I consider Firestorm better than Contagion, but worse than Darkblast.
Darkblast is SO good against Jailer.  This is especially true if you run Chalice since you may delay Jailer till turn 2 in which case you should be able to Dredge into Darkblast.  Even without Chalice, because Jailer is typically a 1 or 2 of your opponent is usually trying to tutor it up, so being able to keep a Darkblast in hand is really nice.
Then there are all the games where Jailer did not hit.  In that case Firestorm is still decent in that it can be an extra discard outlet, but being able to Dredge with Darkblast is still probably better and allows for a lower Thug count which you generally want post board anyway.

[Shax]

See, stuff like Firestorm seem to me like your going for more of a all in approach with you anti-hate cards. I darkblast too, but if your going to give the go ahead and dump most of your hand should'nt you go ahead and use stuff like LED?

[Ozymandias]

Ah, but the rub is that you can keep a Firestorm hand WITHOUT A BAZAAR. You'll almost always have a target to get one or two dredgers in the yard.

[Adan]

Ah, but the rub is that you can keep a Firestorm hand WITHOUT A BAZAAR. You'll almost always have a target to get one or two dredgers in the yard.

But how relevant is that? I almost never keep a hand without Bazaar in any game. He is actually more important in the postboard games because he will also find you your answers to hate (except Peedle obv.).
I cna imagine Firestorm to be a good option if you are worried about Magus of the Moon (I lost to that dude a few years ago, it was pretty mindfucking...). But against Jailer, the standard (i.e. 4 Chain of Vapor and a total of 3 Darkblasts in the 75) is already good enough.
I'm still more worried about the MUD matchup. Wasteland is a pain in the ass, Spheres don't let you resolve a single spell and the critters like Lodestone and especially Steel Hellkite will smash your face in a blink of an eye. This is actually not a problem until a Relic or Tormod's Crypt comes into play.

Is Pithing Needle an option?

[Shax]

There really isn't a way too stop Lodestone Golem, unless you get lucky with your chains or nature's claim to have the two mana. Two mana in Ichorid is really hard to do, since the opponent playing sphere effects will have A) Wasteland!!! B)More Sphere Effects C) Another Lodestone Golem or.. D) Crazy topdeck like Black Lotus/Workshop into all their goodies. Ichorid's matchup against MUD is the most interesting of what you can deal with. Sure, Firestorm is going to be the best option against MUD over Darkblast. You'll be able to take care of all those critters they run, which can be the focal point of their game depending on their hand. But against blue, I'd have to be split on the Firestorm. Since Dark Confidant and Jailer are the big reasons to run Darkblast, and being able to dredge it back to your hand is a great play for when they counter it the first time. Jailer stops the dredge, so make sure for the multiples.

[Metman]

I agree that Jailer is a reason to run Darkblast but Confidant is not.  I would almost never use Darkblast to remove a Confidant.  If the opponent is playing 2/1 card drawing geared towards the long game Dredge should win.  Hold your Darkblasts for Yixlid Jailer. 

[Adan]

I agree that Jailer is a reason to run Darkblast but Confidant is not.  I would almost never use Darkblast to remove a Confidant.  If the opponent is playing 2/1 card drawing geared towards the long game Dredge should win.  Hold your Darkblasts for Yixlid Jailer. 

If you see that he's relying on him, you will darkblast him. Especially if you don't have any Bridges to lose. No matter how slow Dark Confidant might be, you don't want to allow your opponent to dig through his library at double speed to find the hate that will probably cost you the game.

[Valorale]

Confidant by itself isnt that bad, he is too slow to give them a real advantage. Postboard however, I have lost numerous games in testing when my opponent has Leyline+Confidant out or Jailer+Confidant. When they can see +2 cards a turn, they draw far more abilities to stop your anti-hate while turning their dude sideways to beat you up. So yea, id gladly use darkblast on Confidant or Welder.

[Shax]

I've noticed a increase in the use of Phyrexian Revoker in maindeck and sideboards in decklist for MWS. Dredge looks well positioned in the metagame right now. Heres the decklist I came up with from the top but with considerations. It seems like a standard  Dredge list gets  luck dependant  but also plays to your strengths better compared to a moxen/ancestral recall/lots of situational dread return targets mana dredge list not containing Ichorid. Ichorid vs Non Ichorid is what I've been tinkering with. Non Ichorid seems better but only because Fatestitcher makes your dread return faster. Ichorid is great at making your Bridges faster than Bloodghast. And getting to return it everyturn really contributes to our beatdown plan since we are in a good position to win game one anyway. Fatestitcher does have some good to it, but in the long run I think Ichorid can give us better game two and threes; which is what I have been having anyways with Ichorid.

Land mass:
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Undiscovered Paradise
2 Petrified Field
3 City of Brass

Beatsticks:
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Bloodghast
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
1 Flame-kin Zealot

Fireblast:
Spells
4 Bridge From Below
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
4 Serum Powder

Masterplans:
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Nature's Claim
2 Darkblast
1 City of Brass
4 Leyline of Sanctity

Pretty much carbon copy of earlier list, with Sanctity putting in work and brass in the board. Darkblast has been useful covering up Thug in games two and three while providing dredge outlet. No Salvage here means I need lands in hand to pull off Bloodghast, which is fine since I am more worried about my MUD matchup. If blue starts dominating again I might switch back to a less streamlined list since they are shutdown without me having to run Fields. Fields is mvp against waste decks, so those stay depending on what I think is going to be played. Being able to beat opponents out of the game more often is a good crutch for Dredge compared to combo focused versions. FTK is our best kill anyways and I've tested multiple targets and while they 'speed you up' in that your finding your win condition/staller in Iona or whatever, I would rather be more dedicated to a smash face attitude with the combo finish.

Also, the bolded part above doesn't really remain so true. Lots of creatures are in vintage right now. More creatures=more combat=less time to kill opponent for Ichorid. So now all your resources are a bit more constrained, and you have to be very careful when playing the deck to win against the field. Your the sneaky bastard here, and your undead influence stretches as far as a tormod's crypt and a time vault. I think thats why Ichorid isn't up to par right now in the Vintage metagame. Creatures. Not like we are doing anything different, or really need too. It's just that every blue deck runs supplement creatures to haze MUD or other blue. And even then Gush coming back hasn't done Ichorid any favors. Just made our luck% go down if anything. Golem doing the same. Every card printed for everything else has the mass effect on ichorid more than most decks because of it messing with our game one win domination. Nevermind games two and three.

[ipconfig]

I read carefully this thread an want to adress one thing:

Why do i need the 4 Leyline of the Void?

The mirrormatch?
The fight against combo?

I want to test for Bazaar of Moxen and plan to play Ichorid.
Therefore i am currently building a decklist where i want to adress the following Expection:
Workshop with 25% of the field,
Tezzeret-Controll with 40%, 
Ichorid with 15%
Fish 10%
Combo 10%

I think -4 LotV +3rd and 4th Ichorid +1 Natures Claim +3rd Dread Return would be a good answer if i expect the field like explained before.
What do you think?

[Meddling Mike]

I read carefully this thread an want to adress one thing:

Why do i need the 4 Leyline of the Void?

The mirrormatch?
The fight against combo?

I want to test for Bazaar of Moxen and plan to play Ichorid.
Therefore i am currently building a decklist where i want to adress the following Expection:
Workshop with 25% of the field,
Tezzeret-Controll with 40%, 
Ichorid with 15%
Fish 10%
Combo 10%

I think -4 LotV +3rd and 4th Ichorid +1 Natures Claim +3rd Dread Return would be a good answer if i expect the field like explained before.
What do you think?

Those are the reasons why Leyline are run maindeck. I guess their inclusion in the MD points to the view of the Ichorid player in game 1. Even in a format as fast as vintage there are few strategies that are capable of winning game 1 against Ichorid. The mirror and an early Yawgmoth's Will from storm combo would certainly qualify. I suppose if you find yourself hurting for the cards named above, but personally I don't often find myself in a position where I need those cards in game 1. If I were going to cut the Leylines my next thought would probably be to add Chalice of the Void or possibly unmask. There's quite a bit of potential builds of this deck and I couldn't say which is optimal.

[ipconfig]

hmm...

So i address the mirror and the combo games...
Let's say these metadecks together would be 25% of the field
paired with the chance to have a LotV on the starting hand (7%)
you get a 1,66% Chance that you have LotV online when you need it...
doesn't seem noticeable...

But if 65% of the meta heavily relies on artifacts its a good idea to address them at first place...

Except Tezzert-Controll and Workshop have a more worse matchup pre sideboard than mirror/combo

i guess i answered my question myself...

I should play LotV main because those games which can beat ichorid pre sb are combo and mirror.
Workshop and controll have a worse matchup pre sb so i don't need to address them especially...

EDIT:

Hmm...
Why isn't Fatestitcher anymore played?
He boosts the game and could be played over LotV.
He doesnt disrupt my Opponent like LotV does, but he boosts my own game which can adress the combo/mirror deck and also a first turn tinkered Blightsteel colussus...
Has Fatestitcher turned into a win-more-option??? or is he not that fast as i have in memory?

[meadbert]

Why isn't Fatestitcher anymore played?
He boosts the game and could be played over LotV.
He doesnt disrupt my Opponent like LotV does, but he boosts my own game which can adress the combo/mirror deck and also a first turn tinkered Blightsteel colussus...
Has Fatestitcher turned into a win-more-option??? or is he not that fast as i have in memory?

I think the answer is that Fatestitcher is bad against Shops.
Basically if Bazaar is Wasted then Fatestitcher becomes worse and you will wish you had Petrified Field.
Even if they drop a Resistor then you will want your lands to tap for mana so you can actually pay for Dread Return or Cabal Therapy.

Fatestitcher shines against Combo (which is on a severe downswing) and in the mirror.
In the mirror, Fatestitchers can speed up your goldfish by almost a turn.

Fatestitchers are shady against Fish because of Wasteland, but still better than Leyline of the Void.

I would look to run at least 2 in general just because they are so good if you dredge into them, but I can see how they are less useful now than they used to be.