Bloodghasted Ichorid Primer- Looking to the future

[hitman]

Is running Petrified Field better than just playing more rainbow lands?  My plan has been to just take out Shop's big creatures with Nature's Claim and Ancient Grudge then hardcast a Bloodghast/Narcomoeba/Golgari Thug and beat them to death slowly.  It's worked really well for me.  Obviously, if the window's open, just kill them with a combo or large Golgari Grave-Troll.  I've found the Petrified Fields slow and unnecessary and pretty much never want to see it.  I very much prefer more real mana-producing lands, especially post-board versus Shops.  Am I way off?  The reason I play Grudge is so they can't just Chalice for one and my Nature's Claims are dead.  Ancient Grudge always gives me game, whether I'm locked out or locking them out by dredging into it.  I need real lands to cast it though, especially from my hand. 

[Shax]

Field is an option for you land slots, just like Dakmoor Salvage and Rainbow Lands are. More expected Shops means more expected wasteland, also with Fish and other wasteland strategies decks might impose. Field is Bazaar 5-8 there, and is highly profitable. Dakmoor Salvage gives you a turn to return Bloodghast, and dredges. Rainbow lands are good for Fatestitcher, and they help you make colored mana for all the spells you like. Your plan sounds.. a bit weak. Dredge is strong because of our land, OUR land, Bazaar of Baghdad. No other deck utilizes this land the way a dredge deck does. I will mull myself out in most cases just to find this card. It is that important. If you are worried about Shop, use Ichorid. They fight it better than Bloodghast. Use Field. Ancient Grudge and Nature's Claim are really good here too. Chalice, and Leyline of the Void can be standouts here, if the MUD/Shop deck uses things like Welder, Crucible, or a high number of fast mana not normal to a build seen from game one. I.E( Lotus Petal, Multiple Mox Opals, Grim Monolith,) Hardcasting creatures is not Ichorids objective, in any match. They are icing on the cake. Or a evil we must do sometimes to scrape that icing off. Fields have the advantage in the Shop matchup over Salvage and Rainbow lands being that they are always able to tap for mana, and carry no drawbacks what so ever besides not having color. Every rainbow land will have a drawback, whether it be life cost, or some other initiative. If you like 'real' mana lands, dual lands are a good choice. Basic lands have the sweet option of not being able to be wastelanded, AND lots of decks can use stuff like Ghost Quater, but that is a little threat. I do like Grudge, but 2 mana is hard to cast, and the reason for dodging Chalice is fine.

Fatestitchers are what would give me turn one wins with Dredge. Really nutty card. They give you no help whatsoever against Shop, and Dredge compared to Chalice/Leyline. They are really good at making you fast, without having to commit resources to 'casting' spells. So def. a option for speed. Be wary they commit you more to your graveyard, if you see the logic in that over another card you can use in that slot. They also provide Force of Will blue count, and Dredge Return/Cabal Therapy. The tricks to tap a BSC would also be cool if I have had that situation come up yet. I have had something like that happen though.

[ipconfig]

Next weekend is a local qualifier for Bazaar of moxen.
This is what i plan to play:

// Lands
    4  Bazaar of Baghdad
    4  City of Brass
    1  Dakmor Salvage
    4  Undiscovered Paradise
    2  Petrified Field

// Creatures
    4 [DDC] Stinkweed Imp
    4  Golgari Thug
    4  Bloodghast
    3  Ichorid
    4  Narcomoeba
    1  Flame-Kin Zealot
    4  Golgari Grave-Troll
    2  Fatestitcher
    1  Angel of Despair

// Spells
    4  Bridge from Below
    4  Cabal Therapy
    2  Dread Return
    4  Serum Powder
    4  Chalice of the Void

// Sideboard
SB: 4  Leyline of the Void
SB: 3  Nature's Claim
SB: 4  Chain of Vapor
SB: 2  Darkblast
SB: 2  Unmask




As mentionend earlier this is my expection:

Workshop with 25% of the field,
Tezzeret-Controll with 40%,
Ichorid with 15%
Fish 10%
Combo 10%

Now for the debate:
a) No LotV mainboard
b) 3 Ichorid instead of 2 (for the better chance against Workshop)
c) 2 Unmask in the SB seems random but what instead (or what to change for 4 Unmask SB)
d) No Titan and Serinity
e) only 2 Petrified Field
f) 2 Fatestitcher in the main to boost my own game

Any critique is welcome!
What are your sb-choices for Tez-Controll?
What are your sb-choices for Workshop?
How often did the mainboard LotV really help?

Sometimes i fizzle when mulligan for Bazaar...
Have you made any experience under which circumstances you mulligan do to which size of hand?
I mean do you say: "Against shop i mulligan only down to 4 or 3"?

[Shax]

SB Choices for Tezzerett control are 4 Leyline of Sanctity, and 2 Darkblast/ X"Firestorm/ X''Unmask is fine. Workshop I would use 4 Claim, Sancitity, Chain. LoTV wins your mirror matchup almost as much as you beat someone game one. 80% of the time? But this is most likely going to be higher against another Dredge deck. It stops graveyards. Makes artifacts lose crucible of worlds. Y.Win. For some reason Dragon. Going from your matchup pairings. 15% Dredge plus 10% Combo(Y.Win based) gives a strong reason to run LoTV. Not counting that against Tezzy decks(40%), they cannot use their regrowths anymore if they were using that, and Y.win like I said. Against Fish makes their Goyf smaller. Workshop it has marginal use, but against Goblin Welders Bazaar/Shop they scoop like G1 Dredge matchup*most of the time. So yeah, I feel like LoTV would be a really strong playset maindeck for that meta.

[Mantis]

Your list looks very good. I really think  you correctly assessed the strength of Fatestitcher, you might even want to pack 1 more.

I agree with Shax that you probably want Leyline of the Void maindeck, this also depends on how big the tournament is. If around <50 people show up you can easily scout the Dredge decks and mull for Leyline against them game 1 and hopefully get an autowin that way.

I would play Terastodon over Angel of Despair. There are games when you can not rely on Bridge from Below, for example when your opponent has means to get rid of them (for example Trisk + Welder, Karn + Moxen or Extirpate) or when you Serum Powdered away all of your Bridges. In these scenario's it's very nice to still be able to pump out an overwhelming army quickly and not give your opponent a huge time frame to win where you try to beat him down with Narcomoeba, Bloodghast and Ichorid. Additionally, sometimes you can not win the game on your turn but can animate Terastodon, you will put your opponent in a hard position to win because he has 0 lands. In most situations both are equally good, but I can envision scenarios where Terastodon steals you the win where Angel can not.

Other than that, you might want to consider FoW in the sideboard. I played it in my last tournament and felt like it was strong, but still 1 tournament is a limited sample so I can't tell you for sure.

I think dredge is really powerful right now and basically the only thing you realistically lose to is mulligans and Leyline of the Void, all of the other hate can be played around.

[scipio]

I think if you go with Leyline maindeck, then you ditch the fatestitcher plan and move the Cities of Brass to the board.  I've always found stitcher to be win more except in the mirror and against combo decks, and he's worthless against decks packing wasteland (at least 35% of your projected field).  I would probably play maindeck darkblast or unmask in place of the stitchers.  I've found unmask to be pretty weak game 2 as the opponent's hate has typically hit the field, leaving it as a back-up option to chain + therapy.  I agree that Angel can be switched out for either Woodfall Primus or Terastadon.  Just make sure you have experience in picking targets with the 'Don - it takes some practice.  I personally prefer primus.  The only difference is that angel can hit a creature, which is typically not relevant, and doesn't work against Blightsteel anyway.

With the space freed up in the board, I would run 4 claims, 4 chain, 4 city of brass, 1-2 ingot chewer (believe it or not, I have had to dread return this guy to beat a piece of hate - silent arbiter, and it's your only out to chalice at 1), 1-2 darkblast.  It's almost always a good idea to bring your chalices back in for game 3 and streamline your anti-hate based on what you've seen game 2.

Finally, and I may stir up some controversy with this statement, you must always mulligan/powder to bazaar.  A hand without bazaar will rarely win.  I've kept a 7 card hand stacked with anti-hate and the means to cast it and gotten blown out.  Why - no way to discard and your hand gets depleted such that it's difficult to get to the end of turn discard phase.  Yes, we have an aggro plan, but it rarely keeps pace in Vintage, it's option C at best.  A single bazaar activation can often be enough to get there.

Good luck in the tournament and let us know how you do.

[ipconfig]

According to the latest Tournaments posted at another site (I don't know if i am allowed to name the site) i made the following Table:

	Florence 3/182	Florence4/182	Lindenhurst1/14	Zürich5/33	San Jose 2/14	Osaka4/14	Midlothian3/?	Bloomsburg6/24	Lindenhurst7/20	Sarzana5/22
Artifacts	13.03.2011	13.03.2011	20.02.2011	20.02.2011	20.02.2011	12.02.2011	12.02.2011	22.01.2011	16.01.2011	28.12.2010
Challice of the Void	4		4	4	4		4	3	4	4
Serum Powder	4	4		4	4	4	4	4		4
Black
Bloodghast	4	4	4	4	4	4	4	4	4	4
Bridge from Below	4	4	4	4	4	4	4	4	4	4
Cabal Therapy	4	4	4	4	4	4	4	4	4	4
Darkblast	1		1	1	1	1		1	1
Dread Return	2	3	2	3	2	4	2	2	2	3
Golgari Thug	2	3	2	2	2	4	1	1	2	3
Ichorid	2	3	4	3	2	4	2	4	4	3
Leyline of the Void	4		4	4	4		4	4	4
Stinkweed Imp	4	4	4	4	4	4	4	4	4	4
Street Wraith							4			4
Unmask	3	4				3				4
Blue
Breakthrough						2
Chain of Vapor							1
Fatestitcher		3
Nacromoeba	4	4	4	4	4	4	4	4	4	4
Gold
Angel of Despair								1		1
Flame-Kin Zealot	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	1	2
Green
Golgari Grave-Troll	4	4	4	4	4	4	4	4	4	4
Nature's Claim					2			2
Terastodon	1	1	1						1
Crop Rotation			4						4	1
Red
Ancient Grudge		1
White
Iona, Shield of Emeria		1			1	1
Sun Titan				1
Lands
Bazaar of Baghdad	4	4	4	4	4	4	4	4	4	4
Cephalid Coliseum					2
City of Brass		2	4	2	2	1	3	3	4	4
Dakmor Salvage	1	1	1	1	1	1	2	1	1
Gemstone Mine						2	1
Petrified Field	3	2		2				2
Undiscovered Paradise	4	4	4	4	4	4	4	3	4	3
Sideboard
Ancient Grudge	2	2		1		2				3
Chain of Vapor	3	3	4	4	4		3	3	4	2
Chalice of the Void						3
City of Brass	3			2	2		1
Contagion	2	2
Firestorm								2
Darkblast		1	3	1	2		2		3
Ichorid	1
Ingot Vhewer										3
Iona, Shield of Emeria							1	1
Leyline of Sanctity				4		3	3	3
Leyline of the Void		4			3					4
Nature's Claim	4	3	4	3	2	2	3	2	4
Petrified Field								1
Pithing Needle					2	2
Serenity								3
Unmask			4		3		2		4
Wispmare										3

[ipconfig]

Lookin at this Results i came to the following:

The Number of Ichorids is according to the Number of Golgari Thug, since the other Dredgers are there 4 times
so: 2 Ichorid needs at least 2 Golgari Thug and 3 Ichorid needs 3 Golgari Thug
1. You share this Oppinion?

Most of them are playing Darkblast main.
2. Why is Darkblast (pre Sideboard) better then lets say Golgari Thug?
I see Gogari Thug drege one card deeper and features the Ichorid while Darkblast does... ???

3. Is the Number of Dread Return corresponding to the number of Target Creatures?

4. Is Unmask in the Mainboard noticable as the latest Decks used them in a 182-Person Tournament?
I had the oppinion that Unmask belongs in the SB.

5. Fatestitcher seems to be forgottable?

6. 2 Return Targets are the best played Number? I remeber in the earlier days plaing a third one which let you drew more cards...

7. It seems that Petrified Field should earn 2 or 3 slots in the mainboard?


Nevertheless
i plan to play the following List:

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Serum Powder

4 Blood Ghast
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Darkblast ( or the 3rd Golgari Thug)
2 Dread Return
2 Golgari Thug
2 Ichorid (Maybe 3 Ichorid if i play the 3rd Golgari Thug)
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Unmask (2 If i play 3 Ichorid)

4 Nacromoeba

1 Flame-Kin Zealot

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
1 Terastodon

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
1 Dakmor Salvage
3 Petrified Field
4 Undiscovered Paradise (i need to buy 3 one at the Tourne, wish me luck)

SB:
4 Chain of Vapor
3 City of Brass
2 Contagion
1 Darkblast or Ichorid (Depends on the Mainboard)
1 Ingot Chewer (he dodges Spheres right?)
4 Nature's Claim

[ipconfig]

Hmm...

The Tourney wasn't my best at all.
Here is the report:

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=42074.0

[Ozymandias]

What do you guys think of the following list?
//Lands
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Dakmor Salvage
2 Petrified Field
//Creatures
4 Bloodghast
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
//Enchantments
4 Bridge From Below
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Leyline of Sanctity
//Artifacts
4 Serum Powder
4 Chalice of the Void
//sorceries
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

//Sideboard
4 Nature's Claim
4 Chain of Vapor
3 Darkblast
4 City of Brass

[hitman]

I think that, unless you're playing against a lot of Oath and storm combo, you shouldn't mainboard Leyline of Sanctity.

[Shax]

Instead of having to use your precious mainboard slots for a situational Leyline of Sanctity over a more beneficial card like LotV, I would just as many Golgari Thugs as Ichorids. A personal preference. Also without Leyline maindeck you get to add more maindeck city of brass for Bloodghast combo.

[cruzron]

and I would mainboard 2 nature's claim. at least you'll have an out to people who mainboard LotV for the 1st game.

[Mantis]

Not playing Fatestitcher is extremely greedy in my opinion. In a format with Dark Ritual, TV/Key, Tinker for Blightsteel Colossus, Timetwister and Painter/Stone, there are times when a turn 3 or 4 kill isn't going to cut it, but killing a turn faster would. Dredge is entirely constructed with the assumption that you will always win game 1, because winning two games postboard is very hard as the deck is so susceptible to graveyard hate. I plead for not making the blind assumption we will always win game 1, even if we dilute our deck with 12 non graveyard slots as the other decks in the format are capable of making extremely powerful plays as well. In the tournament I played in Fatestitcher won me two game 1's that I would otherwise have lost.

The argument that Fatestitcher is bad against Wasteland obviously bears some truth. However, you could potentially play around Wasteland by first playing your manaproducing land and then Bazaar if Fatestitcher is also in your hand.

Another thing I see in many lists is Chalice or Unmask chosen over Fatestitcher. The Dredge is so good is that you use the entire graveyard to generate card advantage. Chalice and Unmask do nothing in your graveyard while Fatestitcher is amazing, allowing you to kill a turn faster, deal with Trinisphere, tap down a creature to swing for lethal or providing a sac outlet for Dread Return (this can be relevant if you Serum Powdered a few times).

I oftentimes keep in 2 Stitchers postboard as sometimes you deal with a hatepiece and are required to win the turn after because otherwise they get the chance to tutor up another hatepiece, replay it the bounced hate or just have the win in their hand. Bazaar + Stitcher means a stacked yard so you can bombard them with Therapies before anything of the afformentioned things happen.

I hope I convinced you all to play Fatestitcher, if not I’d like to hear the flaws in my logic.

[Shax]

The thought process 'Well my Dredge deck lost game one, so I can scoop the match and grap a cola' is unacceptable. I have won games two and three before after losing game one before. Just takes you knowing how to use the Dredge. Fatestitcher was in that deck though.

[Adan]

Not playing Fatestitcher is extremely greedy in my opinion. In a format with Dark Ritual, TV/Key, Tinker for Blightsteel Colossus, Timetwister and Painter/Stone, there are times when a turn 3 or 4 kill isn't going to cut it, but killing a turn faster would. Dredge is entirely constructed with the assumption that you will always win game 1, because winning two games postboard is very hard as the deck is so susceptible to graveyard hate. I plead for not making the blind assumption we will always win game 1, even if we dilute our deck with 12 non graveyard slots as the other decks in the format are capable of making extremely powerful plays as well. In the tournament I played in Fatestitcher won me two game 1's that I would otherwise have lost.

The argument that Fatestitcher is bad against Wasteland obviously bears some truth. However, you could potentially play around Wasteland by first playing your manaproducing land and then Bazaar if Fatestitcher is also in your hand.

Another thing I see in many lists is Chalice or Unmask chosen over Fatestitcher. The Dredge is so good is that you use the entire graveyard to generate card advantage. Chalice and Unmask do nothing in your graveyard while Fatestitcher is amazing, allowing you to kill a turn faster, deal with Trinisphere, tap down a creature to swing for lethal or providing a sac outlet for Dread Return (this can be relevant if you Serum Powdered a few times).

I oftentimes keep in 2 Stitchers postboard as sometimes you deal with a hatepiece and are required to win the turn after because otherwise they get the chance to tutor up another hatepiece, replay it the bounced hate or just have the win in their hand. Bazaar + Stitcher means a stacked yard so you can bombard them with Therapies before anything of the afformentioned things happen.

I hope I convinced you all to play Fatestitcher, if not I’d like to hear the flaws in my logic.

I just can't see when you ever want to play Fatestitcher. It neither improves a single matchup nor does it disrupt any line of play the opponent might have.
The " I have won games which I otherwise wouldn't have won" is also true for Chalice.

Fatestitcher doesn't neuter nasty openers like 1st Turn Bargain or 1st Turn Vault-Key. And thanks to Blightsteel Colossus, Tinker -> BSC, Time Walk is another dangerous 1st Turn-Kill against Dredge. Without Chalice or Unmask you just can't beat such opening-hands.
Another metagame factor is MUD. It will destroy your Bazaars and then go full-retard with Lodestone Golems and Steel Hellkites. If you can resolve a Chalice, you might at least be able to buy yourself a few turns whereas playing Fatestitcher wouldn't add anything to it. Tapping down a Trinisphere is irrelevant. The most successful MUD list doesn't even play 3Sphere. And well, Fatestitcher does something against 1 out of 13 Spheres... But with Chalice forces the MUD player to play his cards differently since he has to calculate more carefully with his Spheres.

There is simply no place for Fatestitcher in the current meta.

The argument that Fatestitcher is bad against Wasteland obviously bears some truth. However, you could potentially play around Wasteland by first playing your manaproducing land and then Bazaar if Fatestitcher is also in your hand.

So you go:

1st Turn land, go.
2nd Turn draw, Bazaar, draw draw discard (GGT GGT & Stitcher at best), unearth Fatestitcher, dredge 2 GGT and discard them and something else.

-> You have dredged 12 card within 2 turns. With Bazaar on 1st Turn you can potentially dredge 18 cards on turn 2. With Fatestitcher, you could dredge 30 on turn 2.

So... ARE YOU SERIOUS???

[Mantis]

@Shax:
It's an estabalished fact that dredge has a very strong game 1 and a worse games 2 and 3. As such, the general idea of dredge is to win the first game and hope to overcome the hate in one of the 2 postboard games. Winning 2 consecutive postboard games obviously isn't out of the realm of possibilities, but it's definately an uphill battle and one that I like to avoid if possible. Fatestitcher ups my game 1 win percentage just a little bit and therefore helps me avoid the uphill battle. While you definately speak the truth here, your comment doesn't really contribute to the discussion and feels a bit trollish.

@Adan:
My tournament results provide different results than your experience. I have played Fatestitcher in 3 tournaments, finished 1st (aprox 30 players), 2nd (aprox 40 players) and lost 1 game too many to finish T8 at another (aprox 45 players, due to an erroneous judge call). I am 100% sure my record would have been worse had I not played Fatestitcher.

You are right, even with Fatestitcher you can still lose to broken openers. However, he helps you consistently get a turn faster and thus diminishing the chances of this event happening. You can pretend this is not true, but then you are just lying to yourself. Painter, GWSx, TPS, Tez, Gush Tendrills etc. are all decks that can combo you out if you grant them that additional turn. Having a turn 1 BSC against you on the play or a 2nd turn BSC on the draw, Fatestitcher can help you just get enough blockers out to survive. Against a turn 1 TV/Key when you are on the play, the Stitcher can help you find the Terastodon or the win just in time. I won game 1 against Reanimator, had I given him an extra turn he would have cast Stormtide Leviathan and I would have been toast. About Trinisphere: you can pretend like it does not exist because the 'best' MUD deck doesnt play it, but in reality the card sees tournament play.

On Chalice:
You can not compare Chalice and Fatestitcher in that way. Fatestitcher is actually relevant when it's in your graveyard AND when it's in your hand whereas Chalice is only relevant when it's in your hand. If you constructed the rest of your deck tightly, the times you lose to MUD game 1 will be very rare as they can not deal with recurring Ichorid and Narcomoeba's that chump regardless of playing Chalice of Stitcher. I side 2 of my Stitchers out against MUD and the 2 I kept in act as FoW fodder a lot of the time. Chalice, while perhaps marginally better than Stitcher against MUD, just isn't spectacular in the matchup either.

On the Wasteland comment:
I would only consider that play when my opponent plays out their Wasteland first turn and you are on the draw. Corner case and I have never made the play myself, but relevant to mention nonetheless.

An additional advantage of Fatestitcher, is that it opens up the path to FoW in the sideboard. And while FoW does leave you a bit more vunerable to Leyline of the Void, it helps prevent you to get buried under Spheres, stop broken plays and prevents Rav Trap as well as answer Jailer/Crypt/Relic/Needle.

So... ARE YOU SERIOUS???

I'm a serious man, Larry.

[Adan]

@Adan:
My tournament results provide different results than your experience. I have played Fatestitcher in 3 tournaments, finished 1st (aprox 30 players), 2nd (aprox 40 players) and lost 1 game too many to finish T8 at another (aprox 45 players, due to an errorenous judge call). I am 100% sure my record would have been worse had I not played Fatestitcher.

Well, I have been playing Dredge for my last... what, 15 tournaments or something? I played Stitcher Dredge 4 times and was only able to Top8 once at our local Darmstadt. I got vault-key'd twice at one event, and at the other the opponent just went for 1st Turn Bargain and Mind's Desire. And in one event the deck just crapped ot on me (happens) and the other one was Annecy where I also got Vault-Key'd twice.

You are right, even with Fatestitcher you can still lose to broken openers. However, he helps you consistently get a turn faster and thus diminishing the chances of this event happening. You can pretend this is not true, but then you are just lying to yourself. Painter, GWSx, TPS, Tez, Gush Tendrills etc. are all decks that can combo you out if you grant them that additional turn. Having a turn 1 BSC against you on the play or a 2nd turn BSC on the draw, Fatestitcher can help you just get enough blockers out to survive. Against a turn 1 TV/Key when you are on the play, the Stitcher can help you find the Terastodon or the win just in time. I won game 1 against Reanimator, had I given him an extra turn he would have cast Stormtide Leviathan and I would have been toast.

The thing is, with you being on the play and dropping Chalice, A 1st Turn BSC becomes impossible. I have no idea about Animator, though. Is that even a real deck?

About Trinisphere: you can pretend like it does not exsist because the 'best' MUD deck doesnt play it, but in reality, someone will play a different version of MUD with 3Sphere and end up beating you.

Nope. The good MUD player simply will have Wasteland against you and shut you off with a single Sphere or two. 3Sphere does pretty much the same, even with a Fatestitcher you will end up paying 1 mana for whatever you are attempting to do.

On Chalice:
You can not compare Chalice and Fatestitcher in that way. Fatestitcher is actually relevant when it's in your graveyard AND when it's in your hand whereas Chalice is only relevant when it's in your hand. If you constructed the rest of your deck tightly, the times you lose to MUD game 1 will be very rare as they can not deal with recurring Ichorid and Narcomoeba's that chump regardless of playing Chalice of Stitcher. I side 2 of my Stitchers out against MUD and the 2 I kept in act as FoW fodder a lot of the time. Chalice is merely helpful against MUD anyway, as the cards you fear are Leyline, Needle, Relic and Wasteland. Chalice does stop Tormod's Crypt which can be very relevant and should not be overlooked. I don't know what your metagame is like, but here Workshop only makes up about 30% of the decks (rough estimate). If Shops is like 50-60% in your meta and you have no Storm and little Tez I can see you don't like Stitcher that much.

I can compare them because Fatestitcher AND Chalice together are concepts that don't really harmonize well together since one speeds up your deck, the other one slows the opponent down, which means that you only have 4 slots to fit in either Chalice or Stitcher. And well, slowing the opponent down has proven to be better than allowing him to accelerate into brokeness. Therefore, you should rather add Chalice.
And well, if MUD is able to waste your Bazaar and then drop 2 Lodestones the following 2 turns, you are in a very bad shape (substitute one of the Lodes with a Steel Hellkite und you are DEAD). That's why I prefer to buy myself a few turns to slowdredge further before the obots can smash my face in.

On the Wasteland comment:
I would only consider that play when my opponent plays out their Wasteland first turn and you are on the draw. Corner case and I have never made the play myself, but relevant to mention nonetheless.

Well then the correct play would be:
1st turn draw, go -> discard dredger (GGT at best)
2nd turn drawstep dredge 6, drop Bazaar (recurr BGhasts), activate, dredge whatever you have hit (or just discard the Troll again to slowdredge for another turn).
I have done that during the "everyone plays Noble Fish and MUD"-phase a lot of times.

[Mantis]

The point is: You don't always have Chalice but you almost always dredge into a Fatestitcher, I can't emphasize this enough. This is why you can not compare them in a vacuum like you are consistently doing. You only draw into Chalice maybe 30% of the time (mulligans taken into account), while Stitcher will be there like 60-95% of the time (depending on the turn).

Well then the correct play would be:
1st turn draw, go -> discard dredger (GGT at best)
2nd turn drawstep dredge 6, drop Bazaar (recurr BGhasts), activate, dredge whatever you have hit (or just discard the Troll again to slowdredge for another turn).
I have done that during the "everyone plays Noble Fish and MUD"-phase a lot of times.

That's another possiblity, but that won't work if you had to mulligan or if you don't have the GGT in your hand.

[Womba]

I like Chalice and Fatestitcher main now. Here is the list I ran the last two tourneys, I top 8ed one tourney and lost to a nut draw game 3, and in the other one I punted a round a way to finish x-2.

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Serum Powder
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Ichorid
4 Bloodghast
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
3 Undiscovered Paradise
3 City of Brass
2 Golgari Thug
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Fatestitcher
2 Dread Return
2 Cephalid Colliseum
1 Dakmor Salvage
1 Darkblast
1 Flame-kin Zealot
1 Angel of Despair

SB:
1 Massacre Wurm
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Nature's Claim
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Riftstone Portal
2 Contagion
1 Serenity

An additional advantage of Fatestitcher, is that it opens up the path to FoW in the sideboard. And while FoW does leave you a bit more vunerable to Leyline of the Void, it helps prevent you to get buried under Spheres, stop broken plays and prevents Rav Trap as well as answer Jailer/Crypt/Relic/Needle.
[

I disagree with the logic here for having fatestitcher but agree that it should be ran in this meta, especially with Blightsteel. With that same thought I feel thats also why Chalice should be ran.

The only change I might be eyeing up is actually adding Surgical Extraction over Leyline of the Void in the SB. The card will allow dredge to shut down some storm shanagans, seems better in the mirror as you can actually shut out your opponent's bridges and easily win from there, and it can stop yawg will. These are only some of the applications I have found in limited testing so far. I think Surgical Extraction could very well compete, if not take a spot in the SBs of dredge decks. Of course I will be testing this card more before I actually determine its effectiveness but this could very well be dredge's new toy....

[Shax]

The thing I can contribute to the discussion at this time is probably the inclusion of the new Surgical Extraction card. I do not think I was entering the area of 'trolling' neither. Dredge players typically lose the same game one fighting spirit they start off with if they lose. The point of Dredge is to yeah win the first game. The advent of TimeVault/Blightsteel Colossus changes this formula. I think Dredge being able to win in a tourney is determined by three things. A: The skill of the person playing the Dredge. B: The number of cards that do things to the graveyard. :C The opponents choices. Which can fall under B, and what cards are picked to use against the Dredge.
Surgical Extraction seems like it can be a tool to get around our own Chalice of the Void for 0, and is a more usuable card compared to Leyline of the Void drawn off a Bazaar of Baghdad or normal draws. It has a different functionality from a Leyline anyways, and being able to strip things out of a library and hand contribute to the Dredge's Cabal Therapy plan.

[Adan]

So Guus, I have seen that you Top8ed the Blackboarder Brawl last week with this list:

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Dakmor Slavage
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Black Lotus
4 Serum Powder
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
1 Darkblast
4 Fatestitcher
4 Narcomoeba
2 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Golgari Thug
4 Bloodghast
1 Terastodon
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Bridge from Below

SB:

4 Force of Will
4 Chain of Vapor
3 Echoing Truth
2 Ichorid
1 Petrified Field
1 City of Brass

---

Why should this list - especially the sideboard - be superior to the usual Dredge builds with Chalice? I just don't get it. This build seems to be terrible against MUD (although the Coliseums seem to be very cool vs. Wastelands). And I have seen that you've lost to Tobi's Hordentendrils, did you mulligan to oblivion or did Tobi 1st-Turn-kill you to times? His SB seems to be light on hate.
I'd be glad for some elaborations on your build.

[Teps]

Hey guys I know many of you don't know me but my name is Anthony Scalzo and I top 8ed with this list yesterday. I did a lot of testing with the NEPA guys and basically after onyl playing blue decks and oath I came up with this:

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Undiscovered Paradise
3 City of Brass
1 Dakmor Salvage
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Ancestral Recall
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Golgari Thug
2 Ichorid
3 Dread Return
4 Bloodghast
4 Bridge from Below
4 Serum Powder
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Fatestitcher
3 Sun Titan
1 Flame-Kin Zealot

SB:
1 City of Brass
2 Serenity
2 Firestorm
3 Nature's Claim
3 Chain of Vapor
4 Leyline of the Void

This is basically Mark Hornung's deck with some slight changes. I was having problems racing time vault/voltaic Key game 1 and the big bad robot blighsteel. I originally planned on mainboarding chain of vapor but was quickly decided to be very bad against mental misstep. I decided ancient grudge was the way to go since I'm often going nuts on turn 1 with LED or fatestitcher so casting it from the graveyard was very important and decided to to straight race the colossus/block. I decided to cut to 2 ichorids from 3 predicting low shops at this tournament. The biggest problem is fighting the different hate, now that the deck is getting so popular (4 dredge decks got to top 8 yesterday) and now people are running all different kinds of hate from leyline, jailer, trap, and the artifact ones like crypt, relic, and spellbomb. It's hard to fight in a metagame where dredge is a known threat.


Sorry if this sounds like a tournament report but I figured just to share it hear since most people do not want a  dredge report. I lost to Josh in t8 who won the tournament with that standstill deck. I wanted to know people's opinion going from here whether fatestitcher is still legit and the way to go or revert back to the old dredge decks last year with chalice and leyline (which I see a lot of similar lists here). I personally think that this build is solid and needs a minor tweak, I don't like coliseum at all, too cute but I really like a force of will plan. I'm trying to come up a list that can fit force and make it consistent more like a legacy deck running things like careful study or gitaxian probe.

[Mantis]

So Guus, I have seen that you Top8ed the Blackboarder Brawl last week with this list:
Why should this list - especially the sideboard - be superior to the usual Dredge builds with Chalice? I just don't get it. This build seems to be terrible against MUD (although the Coliseums seem to be very cool vs. Wastelands). And I have seen that you've lost to Tobi's Hordentendrils, did you mulligan to oblivion or did Tobi 1st-Turn-kill you to times? His SB seems to be light on hate.
I'd be glad for some elaborations on your build.

Sorry for the extremely late reply, but I just read it. I think, the recent success of Stitcher dredge kind of proves what I was trying to convey all along: it's just the superior version. Dredging into Stitcher is always superior than dredging into Chalice and it goldfishes a lot faster. You always win g1 against Workshop and games 2 and 3 you bring in FoW and Chain to deal with their hate, for the rest you just recur Ichorid a few times and bash face with zombies. Right now, I would cut the Coliseums, Recall, 1 Stitcher and 2 Ichorid to play 4 City of Brass and 4 Gitaxian Probe. In the sideboard I would play 4 FoW, 4 Chain, 4 Nature's Claim, 1 Iona, 2 Ichorid. Hornung's deck is excellent as well and I could definitely see why people play that, but I like Force of Will too much.

I lost to Tobi because of a mulligan to 1 in game 1. Then game 2, I believe I had to mull to 5 or 6 and couldn't handle the hate.

[Teps]

Hey guys there hasn't been a lot of activity in this thread so I thought I try and bump this up a little. With the metagame switching to Landstill decks, I've added 2 Petrified Fields back into my maindeck. They have proven to be quite useful against shops and landstill. Anyone else brewing up new lists?

[Adan]

Hey guys there hasn't been a lot of activity in this thread so I thought I try and bump this up a little. With the metagame switching to Landstill decks, I've added 2 Petrified Fields back into my maindeck. They have proven to be quite useful against shops and landstill. Anyone else brewing up new lists?

I'm not sure about Landstill, g1 is a cakewalk, you don't even need Bazaar here since you can just DDD with any 7 cards that has a acceptable Dredger in it. They can't race you or anything, they can just Waste their own Mishra's to keep Bridges off, but Ichorids and Moebas will get him eventually.

Postboard is another thing, the first thing that comes to mind is to play Wispmare in your SB to handle Leyline without getting fcuked by Mental Misstep.
However, LS is packed with countermagic, so it can be tough. I think Pet. Fields are the right approach here. You can get blown out of the water by Yixlid Jailer, but on the other side, Landstill has no tutor effects. It should be favorable nevertheless.

[nineisnoone]

I'm not big on Chalice (main) for the same reason I wouldn't run maindeck Mental Misstep. Offensive threat defines Dredge. Sure, both those cards are great (and are not bad choices), but the core of Dredge is forcing hate cards. Diluting your deck to slow their hate, plays into their game.  Chalice slows them, but it doesn't stop them. Same thing with Mental Misstep. If those cards were proper hate that prevented the wins, then maybe. But it's just a speed bump and they are more prepared for it then you.

i.e. if you don't hit Chalice, your deck is weaker. if they don't hit a turn 1 win, then they aren't necessarily weaker as there can still be some very strong turn 1 plays that do not care about Chalice. also, turn 1 + force/claim can happen as well. also Chalice isn't as great if you aren't on play. and if you are on the play (or it's not a turn 1 win), then i'd rather win sooner.

Is it bad? No, but I see it more as a meta choice (like Leviathan over BSC to avoid targeted removal) than a min/max choice. and I would run Mental Misstep over Chalice in the main since it's better post-board.

Hey guys there hasn't been a lot of activity in this thread so I thought I try and bump this up a little. With the metagame switching to Landstill decks, I've added 2 Petrified Fields back into my maindeck. They have proven to be quite useful against shops and landstill. Anyone else brewing up new lists?

I'm not sure about Landstill, g1 is a cakewalk, you don't even need Bazaar here since you can just DDD with any 7 cards that has a acceptable Dredger in it. They can't race you or anything, they can just Waste their own Mishra's to keep Bridges off, but Ichorids and Moebas will get him eventually.

Postboard is another thing, the first thing that comes to mind is to play Wispmare in your SB to handle Leyline without getting fcuked by Mental Misstep.
However, LS is packed with countermagic, so it can be tough. I think Pet. Fields are the right approach here. You can get blown out of the water by Yixlid Jailer, but on the other side, Landstill has no tutor effects. It should be favorable nevertheless.

Mental Misstep is a really tough card for Dredge, as a lot of the better SB options are going to be 1 cost spells. If you really want to worry about Landstill, I would actually think that running your own Factories might not be a bad call. They ignore hate (if they waste this over a potential Bazaar I count that as being good for you) and more-or-less will match the opponent's clock.

Depending on what your general sideboard plan is, it might also might fit in as a general SB card as well.

[boxian]

So, I am looking to build this deck for MTGO and get used to the client. I believe that it is a playable deck in the classic format on there right now. I already got the Bazaars, assuming that I wouldn't get them out of Vintage Masters in June, but I am looking to get the other bits now and I wanted to iron out what the lists have evolved to.

Right now, I am imagining that the list will be

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 City of Brass
2 Petrified Field
1 Dakmor Salvage
3 Undiscovered Paradise

4 Bloodghast
4 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Nacromoeba
4 Putrid Imp
2 Fatestitcher
4 Street Wraith

4 Bridge From Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Serum Powder

SB
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
4 Nature's Claim
3 Ingot Chewer

Although I would love to be pointed in the right direction if this is a bit too far from standard ideas. Previously in the thread, there was talk about main Chalice of the Void which still seems reasonable to me but I like the synergy of the Fatestitcher plan a bit more (dredging into an Unearth trigger is easier than mulling to dredger+draw+bazaar+chalice).

I'm also a big fan of the Undiscovered Paradise+Bloodghast Engine so that's why its in there and I like that Street Wraith feeds Ichorid and gets a draw trigger to occur for free would speed it up, I imagine.

[JPettie]

I am looking for some critique on my list, I am running the following:

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Bloodghast
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
3 City of Brass
1 Dakmor Salvage
3 Dread Return
1 Fatestitcher
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
2 Ichorid
4 Mental Misstep
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nature's Claim
4 Serum Powder
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Sun Titan
4 Undiscovered Paradise

Sideboard:
1 City of Brass
2 Firestorm
2 Gemstone Mine
3 Ingot Chewer
3 Serenity
4 Unmask

I find the list to be performing game 1 but I am really unsure where I want to take the sideboard game 2,3. I have a disruptive sideboard right now where I mostly sideboard everything in and take out the dread return package. Any advice would be helpful as I am new to the format and the deck.

[Ozymandias]

I have always disliked unmask out of the sideboard, for the simple fact that you will probably not be on the play in the majority of your sideboardrd games. I've also found most of the dread return package to be win-more in the maindeck. Your current list is going to have a very, very hard time beating Yixlid Jailer in particular, with 2 outs in your 75.