MonoR Stax and the optimal use of Bazaar of Baghdad

[Delha]

I hadn't seen anything from you in the "MUD minus Lotus" thread. Would you care to share your reasoning?

[TheShop]

The Uba Stax parties like it's 2005 report on this forum is equally insightful as to the red stax thought process.  I am not sure where all of this is since the reorganization.

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=37539.0

My current list:

4 Bazaar
4 Shop
4 B-Ring
3 Mountain
2 Ancient Tomb
0 Lotus
0 Mana Vault
7 Sol/Crypt/Moxen
1 Academy
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland

4 Welder
4 Lodestone

4 Tangle Wire
4 Chalice
3 Crucible
3 Smokestack
4 Resistor
3 Null Rod/Thorn of Amethyst (still not decided)
1 Trinisphere

Side:
3 Duplicant
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Greater Gargadon
2 Jester's Cap
3 Viashino Heretic

Why not leave in your 2 creature kill spells(2xdup) and the 4th stack for 2spheres?   I am not sure I would rather have a sphere than a smokestack or crucible. 

This is just a personal thing, but I don't think a deck sporting 7 ways to kill artifact mana and them 9 ways to eat land needs sphere to lock them out.   Dot get me wrong, cause I don't dislike sphere.

[BC]

I hadn't seen anything from you in the "MUD minus Lotus" thread. Would you care to share your reasoning?

Yeah, I didn't weight in on the Black Lotus issue because I don't really have a strong opinion either way.  Both sides have valid arguments.  With Red Stax, there are even more things to consider for both Lotus and Mana Vault.  Vault and Ancient Tomb both net you 2 mana on the first turn.  Tomb can continue to produce mana, while Vault most likely will not.  However, Vault does not take up your land drop, and can be welded.  Lotus nets 3 mana on the first turn (or whatever turn you need it), and can produce Red mana, but it is a one-time shot.  Importantly, though, neither Vault or Lotus work with a Null Rod in play, something which is not an issue for MUD.  I'm still on the fence for Tomb/Lotus/Vault, but right now I'm testing Tombs.  So far they have been good.

It has been a while since I had Dups in my maindeck.  I definitely think they are worth a look, though.  They are pretty good against Oath, and very good against Fish.  I have been playing Spheres because they compliment Lodestone.  I think maybe I'll test something along these lines:

30 land/mana (same as above)
4 Welder
4 Lodestone
2 Dups
4 Tangle
4 Chalice
3 Crucible
3 Stax
3 Sphere
1 Trinisphere
2 Null Rod

Not sure how that will work.  Seems a little all over the place.

[Leooooh]

Hey,

We could eventually consider removing Lodestones for those slots for Dupe!

What do you think?

[Lurker101]

Hey,

We could eventually consider removing Lodestones for those slots for Dupe!

What do you think?

I wouldn't do that. Lodestones are an essential lock piece plus wincon in one card and will probably never be dead. Duplicant can be a dead card sometimes but I think it's worth maindeck inclusion in Fish/Oath heavy metas, I would just cut different cards to maindeck it.

[BC]

I agree.  Unless they print something even better, I will never again play a Workshop deck without 4x Lodestone Golem.

[TheShop]

I agree.  Unless they print something even better, I will never again play a Workshop deck without 4x Lodestone Golem.

I feel the same, but it bothers me that this fact destroys your ability to play any fun colored spells...


Btw...I don't understand how those spheres work with lodestone better than maxing out rods and chalices

[Leooooh]

So what to cut then???

Smokestack? Crucible? Chalices?

I have no idea about what to cut!

[TheShop]

My vote remains the same: cut uba mask. 

[Leooooh]

Since we are trying different builds, what do you think of this one SHOP?

// Lands
    4  Mishra's Workshop
    4  Wasteland
    1  Strip Mine
    1  Tolarian Academy
    4  Bazaar of Baghdad
    4  Barbarian Ring
    3  Rishadan Port
    2 [BRB] Mountain (7)

// Creatures
    4  Goblin Welder
    4  Lodestone Golem
    2  Duplicant

// Spells
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Trinisphere
    3  Crucible of Worlds
    4  Tangle Wire
    1  Mana Crypt
    4  Chalice of the Void
    3  Null Rod
    4  Smokestack

Replaced the Spheres and one mountain for Rishadan Ports, since they are uncounterable "sphere effects". I also cut the Mana Vault.

Thoughts?

[TheShop]

I have never had a problem with Port and I think it is a great land.  One thing I try to do is keep the same proportion of accelerants/locks/utility as the master's builds or composite older builds(tuning the choices inside of each catagory).  That said, port for mana vault makes sense if you wanted to include port.  Port for sphere is a little tougher to me because 23 lands gives you a greater than 33% chance of hitting a land on drawing.  I have played a lot of budget builds with more lands in an artifact's stead and there can be a speed difference(though probably not a noticible one for you).

A similar way to fit port might be to drop a single b-ring/vault/and a moutain.  You would still have plenty of red sources with your ability to dig without changing the deck's feel.  I think 2 ports were in an old vroman build back in the day.

All good ideas to try.

[swawagon]

I tested the more standard list (without Ports) for a while last night and I just gotta say it again, is Lodestone Golem awesome or what?!?!

My own Mana Crypt, has in the past, been kind of a card I feared to beat myself with. But now with Golem providing Stax with a decent clock, M Crypt is much less a liability.

I was really happy with the deck, and am more sold on Chalice now.

An early Tinker or a Hurkyl's are about all to fear game one.

[Leooooh]

@ The SHOP

I followed your advise and made some changes in the deck, take a look

// Lands
    4  Mishra's Workshop
    4  Wasteland
    1  Strip Mine
    1  Tolarian Academy
    4  Bazaar of Baghdad
    4  Barbarian Ring
    2  Rishadan Port
    2 [BRB] Mountain (7)

// Creatures
    4  Goblin Welder
    4  Lodestone Golem
    2  Duplicant

// Spells
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Trinisphere
    4  Crucible of Worlds
    4  Tangle Wire
    1  Mana Crypt
    4  Chalice of the Void
    3  Null Rod
    4  Smokestack

Added the 2 ports in the place of Mana Vault and Mountain. Also add another crucible. Better now?

[TheShop]

Looks close to what I would play if I were to play today.  Not sure that that is saying much.  I put the deck into cockatrice and goldfished a few.  Looks pretty good to me.  I kinda like having port.

The deck normally plays 3 locks by turn 2, plays 4x lodestone, gets to abuse welder...whats not to like?

[vroman]

The general maindeck package of stax is still a consistent contender, in all these variations. The real challenge is sideboarding.

[personalbackfire]

Added the 2 ports in the place of Mana Vault and Mountain. Also add another crucible. Better now?

I have little to no experience with the deck but I don't how you are trying to consistently cast welder with only 4 ring and 2 mountains. I mean I guess 6 is enough land sources but I would imagine having another red source is more important then having port. Thoughts? I could be completely wrong on this

[Suicideking]

Added the 2 ports in the place of Mana Vault and Mountain. Also add another crucible. Better now?

I have little to no experience with the deck but I don't how you are trying to consistently cast welder with only 4 ring and 2 mountains. I mean I guess 6 is enough land sources but I would imagine having another red source is more important then having port. Thoughts? I could be completely wrong on this

I'm no math wiz and I could be wrong but wouldn't you be around 60% to start with a red land with six in your deck?

 

[BC]

+Ruby, +either Lotus or another Mountain = 8.

[Twaun007]

The general maindeck package of stax is still a consistent contender, in all these variations. The real challenge is sideboarding.

I agree. The challenges in sideboarding with Stax should be a thread unto its own.

@the proper number of red mana sources.

We have to remember that there is only four Goblin Welders in the deck. You're more likely to see the Red Mana source before you even see the Welder.

Another thing to consider is Bazaar of Baghdad, it allows you to dig two cards deeper, bin unnecessary stuff, gets you to Threshold, and has synergy with Chalice of the Void.

[Leooooh]

Hey,

I've made some minor changes to the maindeck. I decided to cut 1 Crucible for another Null Rod. Here is my current maidenck and sideboard for the Mono Red Stax.

    MonoRed Prison Stax
   
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Rishadan Port
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Barbarian Ring
2 Mountain
   
4 Goblin Welder
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Duplicant
   
1 Black Lotus
5 Moxen
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
   
4 Tangle Wire
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Smokestack
4 Null Rod
1 Trinisphere

SB
2 - Duplicants
1 - Razormane Masticore
3 - Tormod's Crypt
3 - Relic of Progenitus
2 - Greater Gargadon
2 - Ensnaring Bridge
2 - Red Elemental Blast
 

Again, playing with only golem as the only "sphere" effect is amazing. Those spheres belong to the MUD lists, that have more lands that can produce more than one mana. Also adding the 2 Duplicants have been amazing too. Gave me some wins against oath and fish, were i would loose if I didn't have it.

I was considering going to 3 rods maindeck, cut one Dupe and 1 Port to add another 3 resistors, but i am on the fence about this. Rods shuts more mana than spheres, and have a bonus of stopping sensei and Vault/Key.

The only match that I miss sometimes the sphere effect is against Tendrils. But for that we still have chalice and rods!

Any comments?

Leo


 

[BC]

I think 4 Null Rods is too many.  Null Rod is one of the only cards in your deck that doesn't do anything (or does nothing) in multiples, Crucible being the other.  In addition to that, you don't always want to see Null Rod, depending on your mana situation.  I think 3 is a good number, and I've even been working with 2 lately.  Null Rod just isn't as strong as it was a few months ago when Tezz was clearly the dominant deck.  Oath, Fish, Ichorid, and other Shop decks don't really care about Null Rod.

[Leooooh]

@ BC:

So, what do you think I should go in the slot of Null rod #4?

I have those options:

1 - Adding another Duplicant, wich will improve the match against fish and oath a lot.
2 - Cut a Port, Dupe, Rod #4 and add 3 spheres od resistence?

Those are the only options that I see being viable. Do you have any toughts to share??

Thnx

[BC]

I like Resistors a lot lately.  My current maindeck is:

Static:
30 land/mana
4 Welder
4 Golem
1 Trinisphere

Fluid:
4 Tangle Wire
4 Challice
3 Crucible
3 Smokestack
3 Resistor
2 Duplicant
2 Null Rod

Going to 1 Duplicant doesn't seem right either.  With no way to tutor, it's just a little too random to be consistently useful.  I went from 4 Smokestacks to 3.  It's not the best solution, but it's ok.

[Leooooh]

@ BC

Are you still using the 2 Ancient Tombs maindeck?

No lotus and mana vault too??

[BC]

Yeah, it's an ongoing experiment.  The mana base generally doesn't change much, though:

26 "Always Include"
4 Shops
4 Bazaar
4 Barbarian Ring
2 Mountain
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
5 Moxen
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Tolarian Academy

Options for the other 4 spots
Black Lotus
Wasteland #4
Mountain #3
Ancient Tomb
Rishadan Port
Mana Vault

[Leooooh]

Hey!

Well, yesterday, I spent some time playtesting our favorite vintage deck on MWS. I ended up playing this:

MoNo ReD StAx

4 Welder
4 Lodestone
2 Duplicant
(10)

1 Lotus
5 Moxen
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
(8)

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Tangle Wire
4 Smokestack
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Sphere of Resistense
2 Null Rod
1 Trinisphere
(21)

4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Barbarian Ring
2 Mountains
4 Wasteland
1 Rishadan Port
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
(21)

SB

3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Jester's Cap (Maybe I'll swap it for REB/Pyro)
2 Greater Gargadon
2 Duplicants
1 Razormane
(15)

Basically, it's almost the same build as you are using BC, + 1 Smokestack, +1 Rishadan Port and with no Ancient Tombs. From what I can remember, i played against 2 oaths, 2 tezz, 2 Fishes, 1 random mono blue hate deck and one W Parfait (The guy played 10000000000000 cards against stax, making it impossible to win without a broken hand on the PLAY).

Things I would like to consider:

1) Dupe is f...... awesome against oath and fish. Definitely we must keep 2 maindeck. As soon as we get the welder+dupe engine going against them, is 90% gg. 100% if we can stick a chalice@1 after that. I was abble to steal 2 games with this engine against oath and more then 3 times dupe got rid of goyf, clearing the path for the MVP golem. The match has been really incresed with this addition. The games 2 and 3 we have more outs, thanks to +2 dupes, +2 gargadons and +2 Bridges(Oath) and +2 dupes, +1 Razormane, +2 Bridges(Fishes).

2) Thanks to MUD, more and more people are using Energy Flux. We can handle this card with an active welder on the board or with a smokestack set at 1. Otherwise things got really complicated. I think we should add the REBs/Pyro. Those cards hits so many problematic cards for us, mainly E-Flux and Predator in fish, Hurkyl's/Rebuild in the TPS (Oath and Tezz matches), Tinker, Jace 2.0, Tezz and etc. Another thing, it only costs R. The 2 matches i played against tezz, one of them a played 6 games....Tezz went over me 4-2, winning in the back of flux, hurkyl's and Jace the Mindsculptor. I am going to test 2~3 Pyros in SB.

3)I wich i could add a 3rd Null rod Maindeck. But it seems that i have no more room. Taking out one smokestack, doesn't seem right. Any ideas?

4) Port was amazing whenever it hit the board. Port, mox, chalice @0 on the play was amazing. It helps this deck a lot....It's basically a 5th strip effect. I wich i could find more room for a 2nd one.

5) I need to test this deck against Ichorid. I think this sb is too week against them, and we need a better sb to make sure we will win g2 and g3, because it is very dificult to win g1.

I will be testing this deck again this night with the following sb:

3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 REB
1 Pyro
2 Greater Gargadon
2 Duplicants
1 Razormane
(15)


Comments???

[BC]

Thanks for the testing data, looks like you made some good observations.  Your list seems good, but I would worry a little about having enough mana.  Was that ever an issue for you?

[BC]

I played this list yesterday at Superstars:

4 Workshop
4 Bazaar
4 B-Ring
3 Mountain
4 Wasteland
1 Strip
1 Academy
2 Ancient Tomb
5 Mox
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt

4 Welder
4 Lodestone
2 Dup

4 Chalice
4 Tangle Wire
3 Smokestack
3 Crucible
3 Sphere of Resistance
2 Null Rod
1 Trinisphere

SB:
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Viashino Heretic
1 Duplicant

I should have made top 8, but didn't.  I was 2-1 and in game 3 of round 4, and I messed up a Bazaar activation that ended up losing me the game.  If I would have done it right, I would have won the game and I could have drawn in to the top 8. 

I have decided that the Ancient Tombs are all wrong.  I'm going back to Lotus + Mana Vault.  The life loss mattered at least once, and having only 2 Null Rods makes the extra artifact mana worth it. 

Leyline of Sanctity was pretty terrible.  I sided it in for a couple matches, but only landed it once, and ended up losing that game to Tinker-Robot.  I also drew it a couple times (not in the opening 7), and didn't always have Bazaar to filter it away.  I think I'll probably go back to 2 Jester's Cap, 2 Greater Gargadon.

[Twaun007]

I should have made top 8, but didn't.  I was 2-1 and in game 3 of round 4, and I messed up a Bazaar activation that ended up losing me the game.  If I would have done it right, I would have won the game and I could have drawn in to the top 8. 

If you don't mind, what was your mistake?

[BC]

I should have made top 8, but didn't.  I was 2-1 and in game 3 of round 4, and I messed up a Bazaar activation that ended up losing me the game.  If I would have done it right, I would have won the game and I could have drawn in to the top 8.  

If you don't mind, what was your mistake?

I was playing against a Tendrils player.  My board was something like 2 Welder, 2 Lodestone, Trinisphere, Crucible, and a bunch of mana.  He had 2 Bitterblossoms and a like 6 lands.  We are both at about 8 life, and have about 5 minutes left in the round, so I am playing fast and stupid.  I am keeping his Faeries in check with my 2 Lodestone while he is hemorrhaging 2 life/turn to the BB and I am pinging him with B-Ring.  He is able to cast Timetwister, taking away my graveyard and my B-Ring recurrsion.  He passes the turn, and on my turn I Bazaar in my mainphase (why?), but do NOT discard the Sphere of Resistance that I have in hand, instead discarding 3 lands (why?).  On his turn he Repeals my Trinisphere, then drops some artifact mana through the Lodestones and Tendrils me for 8 with just enough mana.  If I would have pitched the Resistor, I could have welded the Trinisphere for the Resistor, and he couldn't have won.