[Free Article] The Philly Open IV

[voltron00x]

This week, I take a look at the Philly Open IV Vintage tournament from 11/21, breaking down the meta and examining the top 8 decks.

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/18370_The_Long_Winding_Road_The_Philly_Open_IV.html

Consider this one a teaser for next week - I was able to get 67 of the 68 decklists from TO Nick Coss over the weekend, so next week I'll really number-crunch the field to give you an idea of what's hot, and what's not, in the current Vintage metagame. 

For instance, with 67 players, there are 1005 Sideboard cards.  If I set the over/under at 250 Ichorid hate cards, which would you take?  What Tinker target was the most popular?  How many Tezz decks ran Fire/Ice?  How many decks included Key/Vault?  How many Tezz players used Bob, and what was the quantity breakdown?  How many Shop players ran Thorn?  How many Wastelands were in the field?  Null Rods?  Chalice of the Void?  What was the exact breakdown of the Ichorid hate?  All that and more, coming next week...

[madmanmike25]

First off I would like to thank you for another free article.  I really appreciate that you took the time to post the lists and sb's as well.

I believe that Vintage is moving into a post-Time Vault era.

I had to quote this because it is so horribly HORRIBLY wrong.  When other decks, such as Oath, are running the Key/Vault combo something is amiss.  Why are we seeing Time Vault more often?  Because it’s crazy delicious.  If by 'adapting' to it you mean more decks are running it, then hell yeah the format is very much adapting to Time Vault...

For anyone that cares to pay attention and look at the data, the format itself has shifted, and has evolved and adapted to the presence of Time Vault (just as it has warped, shifted, and evolved around Yawgmoth’s Will and Tinker). Yes, Time Vault is a factor in the format. A big factor, and a limiting factor – but EVERY format operates with limiting factors. That’s a reality of Magic, ESPECIALLY in a format like Vintage. Tinker is a limiting factor. Ancestral Recall is a limiting factor. Formats are defined by their best cards, and Yawgmoth’s Will and Tinker continue to define Vintage as much as Time Vault does.

It’s Funny how Tinker, Will, and Recall all go in the same decks as Time Vault.  Essentially what has happened since they ‘fixed’ Time Vault is that decks that run those cards got even better.  Next someone will point out they also have DT, Vamp, Brainstorm, Top and other draw…and let me guess, many of these decks are backed up by FoW too?  Honestly, did they have to make Tinker even better??  Same could be said for DT and Vamp.  It’s just too easy to find.

2. Time Vault is overpowered.

QFT.

Mana Drain has become eerily similar in actual function to Counterspell in today’s Vintage.

Wrong.  There are plenty of ways to spend Drain mana, 4 of which could be used to play and activate Key+Vault.  Or even on Top.  How are you playing Mana Drain where you could even begin to compare it to Counterspell?  I see plenty of colorless mana requirements.

Similarly, the use of Time Vault as a primary win condition leaves Tezzeret vulnerable to cards like Null Rod and Ancient Grudge.

Ah, here it comes.  Time Vault gets owned by Null Rod.  Then why does it still win so often?  I’ll tell you:

It is better to play with powerful artifact abilities than to play with a card (like Rod) that stops those abilities.

It would be fair to interpret 'better' as 'more likely to win'.

It’s almost like there is this audacity to put Null Rod on the same power level or even effectiveness as Time Vault.  If your goal is to prevent your opponent from winning sure, play Rod.  Or, you could just change your goal.  Rod merely says “EOT bounce me!”  Or “Find 3 lands and cast Tinker instead!”  Is anyone really so delusional to think Fish is remotely on the same power level as Tezz? Can it win?  Surely, but then again sometimes even the sun can shine on a dogs ass too.

Fish/Rod ≠ Tezz/Vault strategies.  If anyone disagrees, by all means speak up.  If Null Rod is a “pillar” in Vintage it is by FAR the weakest one.

Now, back to the diversity issue you addressed.  I wholeheartedly agree, and think Vintage is incredibly diverse.   But that doesn’t change the amount of Time Vaults in T8’s.  It also doesn’t change the fact how easily those decks can win.

Sorry for ranting but I find it frustrating that the people who try to convince us that Key/Vault isn’t an important issue are the same people who play with it and win with it.   I think when you tell players to ‘get over it and move on’  you really diminish valid concerns regarding Time Vault.

I’m not trying to be negative here and I honestly hope both sides of the Vault debate can be fairly represented.  It’s the most powerful 2 card combo at four mana that doesn’t even need to be cast at the same time.  I see no falling sky or decrease in Vintage players, but I’ll go on the record as calling the Time Vault combo unfun and most certainly broken.

Thanks for listening,
Mike

EDIT:  Forgot to mention that even Bomberman has Key/Vault, who else did I miss?

[voltron00x]

I wrote that section the way I did to provoke a response, so that part at least seems successful.

Vintage is moving into a metagame that is finally Vault / Anti-Vault, with the outliers to that battle finding success on the margins.  I will offer up plenty of evidence in my article next week that this is the case.

It’s Funny how Tinker, Will, and Recall all go in the same decks as Time Vault.

This is a gross generalization. 5C Stax runs Tinker and Recall, and not Will or Vault.  TPS runs Tinker, Will, AND Recall, but not Vault.  Some Mana Ichorid lists are running Recall, but not Will, Tinker, or Vault.  Both lists of Oath that I played that split in the finals ran Will, Vault, and Recall, but did not have Tinker.  All of those decks play Black Lotus.  Tinker, Will, and Recall are more ubiquitous than Vault.  Where is your Black Lotus outrage?

Wrong.  There are plenty of ways to spend Drain mana, 4 of which could be used to play and activate Key+Vault.  Or even on Top.  How are you playing Mana Drain where you could even begin to compare it to Counterspell?  I see plenty of colorless mana requirements.

Mana Drain is so poorly positioned right now that Vroman quickly replaced Drains with Spell Pierce in Oath, and there is a relatively sound argument that Tezz is going to end up in the same place.  See GI's optimal Tezz thread - where are you sinking your Mana Drain mana if you're not playing a Tinker target you can cast, and don't play Repeal, ETW, draw 7s, FoF, etc etc.  Drain makes a lot more sense in Slaver or Painter than it does in today's Tezz lists.  I can't count how many times I've had opponents go, "Oh, I have Drain Mana. I'll, uh, Top... and, your turn."

It’s almost like there is this audacity to put Null Rod on the same power level or even effectiveness as Time Vault.  If your goal is to prevent your opponent from winning sure, play Rod.

If your opponent cannot win, the worst you can do is draw, so I'm not sure what you're trying to say there. 

Null Rod is at its best in a deck like Meandeck Beats (multiple avenues of active disruption plus a decently fast aggro clock) or B/R Shops (Null Rod backed up by overlapping pieces of hate and incremental advantage), it just so happens that those decks are criminally underplayed and underdeveloped because people are too busy whining about Time Vault to actually realize there are viable solutions that already exist. 

Your opinions re: Null Rod are colored by your understanding that the card is anchored to Fish, when that is not really the case.  I also made T8 at the NYSE II with an Oath list that ran no Vault and played Null Rod.  The more that decks gravitate to Vault, the better anti-Vault decks get.

Again, I will show that at the Philly Open IV, an event that had a number of high-profile Vintage names and nearly 70 players, Tezzeret control was a poor performer overall, Time Vault as a card regardless of the deck ti was in performed as you would expect based on its % of the metagame and the quality of players who ran it, and that yet again a large-scale event was not won by Tezzeret (which seems to suddenly be a lock for 2nd place).

Good players are good players.  I've watched Jeff Folinus and Steve Nowakowski absolutely DEMOLISH Vintage in the northeast at the back end of this year, no matter what they've played - Tezz, TPS, or Shops.  Time Vault has not made a difference in their top 8 %.  Playtesting and skill level has. 

Time Vault is a busted card.  I get it.  Its a tool, like Will, Recall, Tinker, Lotus, Necro, and so on, and you need to either play with it or play to beat it, but BOTH of those are viable options and have been for months.

My point is that endless complaining that Vintage as a format just can't beat Time Vault doesn't just damage the format and drive away potential Vintage players, it is proving to be flat-out inaccurate and therefore needs to be discouraged.

Oh, and come on, Bomberman?  I could throw Time Vault / Key in Elf Combo, that doesn't mean its relevant or that its having any effect on the format.

[Smmenen]

I'm very much looking forward to your article next week.    Keep it up.   So are you moving to Thursdays permanently?  What's the deal? 

[voltron00x]

I'm very much looking forward to your article next week.    Keep it up.   So are you moving to Thursdays permanently?  What's the deal?  

Thanks, and I believe this week was delayed due to the # of decklists in the article and the volume of extra articles from Worlds coverage.

EDIT:  I've gotten several email responses from that part of the article also, and I will do my best to answer them tonight, but I'd encourage people to post here instead.  Even if its just to vent,  we can hopefully get something productive for the Vintage community out of it.

[personalbackfire]

Mana Drain is so poorly positioned right now that Vroman quickly replaced Drains with Spell Pierce in Oath, and there is a relatively sound argument that Tezz is going to end up in the same place.  See GI's optimal Tezz thread - where are you sinking your Mana Drain mana if you're not playing a Tinker target you can cast, and don't play Repeal, ETW, draw 7s, FoF, etc etc.  Drain makes a lot more sense in Slaver or Painter than it does in today's Tezz lists.  I can't count how many times I've had opponents go, "Oh, I have Drain Mana. I'll, uh, Top... and, your turn."

Matt I am going to disagree with you on this one. Mana Drain hasn't seen play in Oath since TFK because Oath has moved away from a draw engine. When Oath has had a traditional draw engine you needed brainstorm to put back the creatures you drew and shuffle them away. Since Brainstorm got axed and drawing creatures became a legitimate issue people have stopped using a draw engine in Oath in favor of a filter system (impulse). That is why in my opinion people stopped using the drains since they had less value and for a while Negate was doing everything the Drain would have done for a easier casting cost. This was the case up until recently. Since Vroman started playing his list and it has been catching on, I have seen a few players using drainss The best example is probably Paul Masstriano, who did top 8 the Philly Open, with Mana Drains in his Oath list. I think Drains are viable in a list like his because it is more Tezzcentric and plays many of the same elements that a combo control tezzeret deck does. This is also the reason cards such  as Mana Crypt and Sol Ring, that didn't go into Impulse style Oath are now seeing play.

In terms of Tezzeret Mana Drain plays a big role in my experience. You can get alot of value out of it by timing it correctly. I have won many games by having enough mana to play vault and have drain back up, just to drain their force, and move to my second main and play key and win. You can also set up better Wills by doing the same thing, protecting your Will with a Drain to get +3 overall from a countered Force. Another common use for Drain is protecting spell in your second main so that you can use that drain mana in your 1st main phase of your next turn.Just my opinion.

[voltron00x]

Mana Drain is so poorly positioned right now that Vroman quickly replaced Drains with Spell Pierce in Oath, and there is a relatively sound argument that Tezz is going to end up in the same place.  See GI's optimal Tezz thread - where are you sinking your Mana Drain mana if you're not playing a Tinker target you can cast, and don't play Repeal, ETW, draw 7s, FoF, etc etc.  Drain makes a lot more sense in Slaver or Painter than it does in today's Tezz lists.  I can't count how many times I've had opponents go, "Oh, I have Drain Mana. I'll, uh, Top... and, your turn."

Matt I am going to disagree with you on this one. Mana Drain hasn't seen play in Oath since TFK because Oath has moved away from a draw engine. When Oath has had a traditional draw engine you needed brainstorm to put back the creatures you drew and shuffle them away. Since Brainstorm got axed and drawing creatures became a legitimate issue people have stopped using a draw engine in Oath in favor of a filter system (impulse). That is why in my opinion people stopped using the drains since they had less value and for a while Negate was doing everything the Drain would have done for a easier casting cost. This was the case up until recently. Since Vroman started playing his list and it has been catching on, I have seen a few players using drainss The best example is probably Paul Masstriano, who did top 8 the Philly Open, with Mana Drains in his Oath list. I think Drains are viable in a list like his because it is more Tezzcentric and plays many of the same elements that a combo control tezzeret deck does. This is also the reason cards such  as Mana Crypt and Sol Ring, that didn't go into Impulse style Oath are now seeing play.

In terms of Tezzeret Mana Drain plays a big role in my experience. You can get alot of value out of it by timing it correctly. I have won many games by having enough mana to play vault and have drain back up, just to drain their force, and move to my second main and play key and win. You can also set up better Wills by doing the same thing, protecting your Will with a Drain to get +3 overall from a countered Force. Another common use for Drain is protecting spell in your second main so that you can use that drain mana in your 1st main phase of your next turn.Just my opinion.

Mana Drain makes more sense in a list like Paul's than in many Tezz lists, because he's playing the bigger mana Tezz spells (Tezz, Gifts) without as much fast mana.

And I'm not saying Drain is a dead card or w/out value in current Tezz, but there should be no question that the value of the mana you get from it is considerably less than what Drain decks could do and often needed to do with it pre-Time Vault.  Even the loss of being able to TFK main-phase for U is a big difference.  One of the reasons why I do like to play Inkwell or Sundering Titan plus Repeal and an ETW is that I have avenues outside of Will that make Drain more useful.  When people advocate going as far as cutting FoF and playing Sphinx that can only be played via Lotus / Pearl, it just seems like you're accepting that Drain is more or less Counterspell with the occasional bonus of playing a free Key or a free Top activation.

To be fair, it could be that I've learned to play around Drain to some extent and therefore am preventing people from maximizing value from their Drains.  I do always run 4-5 Duress / TS in my Oath decks, so I tend to have better information to inform my decisions.

[madmanmike25]

This is a gross generalization. 5C Stax runs Tinker and Recall, and not Will or Vault.  TPS runs Tinker, Will, AND Recall, but not Vault.  Some Mana Ichorid lists are running Recall, but not Will, Tinker, or Vault.  Both lists of Oath that I played that split in the finals ran Will, Vault, and Recall, but did not have Tinker.  All of those decks play Black Lotus.  Tinker, Will, and Recall are more ubiquitous than Vault.  Where is your Black Lotus outrage?

Not really a good comparison.  Most of those decks run Island, should I be ‘outraged’ at Island too??  Does Black lotus win the game NOW?  No, it does not.  I think you are missing the point a little.  The most powerful or ‘best’ decks run the aforementioned cards ALREADY.  Now they just became more powerful.  Btw, it’s not hard to run Tinker in Oath if you opt for an artifact creature in addition to Vault.

Mana Drain is so poorly positioned right now that Vroman quickly replaced Drains with Spell Pierce in Oath, and there is a relatively sound argument that Tezz is going to end up in the same place.  See GI's optimal Tezz thread - where are you sinking your Mana Drain mana if you're not playing a Tinker target you can cast, and don't play Repeal, ETW, draw 7s, FoF, etc etc.  Drain makes a lot more sense in Slaver or Painter than it does in today's Tezz lists.  I can't count how many times I've had opponents go, "Oh, I have Drain Mana. I'll, uh, Top... and, your turn."

You aren’t making sense.  GI’s list runs FOUR copies of Mana Drain.  I wonder where he sinks his Drain mana…..

1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Rebuild
1 Fire/Ice
3 Dark Confidant
1 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Time Walk
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Tinker
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth’s Will

Copied and pasted directly from GI’s list.  Those all require colorless mana.  That’s not even all the cards as I believe the list is missing some.   Tempo gain is still a good thing or did I not get the memo?  Drain in Oath?  I’ve seen it, but never liked it.  Spell Pierce just makes sense in Oath more so than in Drain.  Obvious I should think.

If your opponent cannot win, the worst you can do is draw, so I'm not sure what you're trying to say there.  

Let me clarify:  Null Rod doesn’t even truly prevent them winning.  Delay is more like it.  I’m trying to say that Null Rod is not on the same level and succumb to the typical maindeck artifact bounce.  I believe GI’s build runs Rebuild right?  I also believe LOTS of Vault lists run Rebuild, right?  Or Hurks, right?  Oath maindecks Grudge, right?  So much for your Null Rod preventing them from winning.  That is of course if it even gets to resolve.  From the Vault players point of view, Null Rod is like running over a crippled kid on the freeway; sure it’s not pretty to see and slows you down, but in the long run you still get where you need to go.

Null Rod is at its best in a deck like Meandeck Beats (multiple avenues of active disruption plus a decently fast aggro clock) or B/R Shops (Null Rod backed up by overlapping pieces of hate and incremental advantage), it just so happens that those decks are criminally underplayed and underdeveloped because people are too busy whining about Time Vault to actually realize there are viable solutions that already exist.  

I’m sorry but are you putting me in the category of people who are “whining”?  If that is not what you expected me to infer then you need to be very careful with your wording.  Again that is part of the problem.  You seek to belittle those who have genuine concern.  Great way to inspire debate huh?

Time Vault is a busted card.  I get it.  Its a tool, like Will, Recall, Tinker, Lotus, Necro, and so on, and you need to either play with it or play to beat it, but BOTH of those are viable options and have been for months.

It proves my point that you don’t get it, because it is NOT a tool.  It is a WIN CONDITION.  I have won plenty of games where my opponent cast Recall and/or Lotus.  I’m glad you said this:

If you need to either play with it or play to beat it HOW DOES THAT NOT MAKE IT FORMAT WARPING?

My point is that endless complaining that Vintage as a format just can't beat Time Vault doesn't just damage the format and drive away potential Vintage players, it is proving to be flat-out inaccurate and therefore needs to be discouraged.

Now who is whining?  I never said Vault is driving away players.  Endless complaining??  I think what needs to be discouraged is your attitude on handling differing opinions.  How about a relevant discussion instead of clever and underhanded remarks?

Oh, and come on, Bomberman?  I could throw Time Vault / Key in Elf Combo, that doesn't mean its relevant or that its having any effect on the format.

Wow really?  If nearly every deck *would* add in Vault/Key you honestly don’t think that has ANY effect on the format.  That opinion strikes me as ignorant.  Are you also dismissing Bomberman as a viable deck as well??

Oh, and come on, Elves?

First, your tone has been lacking in several respects throughout this thread.  Drop the aggressive interpersonal demeanor.  Second, your posts verge on arguing about the B/R list, which isn't allowed.  Verbal warning for violation of Rule III, Inflammatory Posting (flaming).  -DA

[voltron00x]

To be clear, my point is this:

1 - There are cards as format-defining as Time Vault that are already ingrained in Vintage - Tinker and Will being the two most obvious.

2 - There is no reason to believe Time Vault is going to be banned.

3 - There is evidence to suggest that attendance for Vintage is actually up in some areas over the past year.  Clearly in NJ/PA/NY and in Europe, the format continues to thrive.

4 - There is evidence that over the past 3 months, Time Vault decks are not dominating larger events the way they were early in 2009, and that Time Vault is going to be come what it always should have been:  one of the best cards in Vintage, but still just a card, not a format-destroying force.  Format-warping, yes.  Destroying, no.  Ichorid has been more format warping than Time Vault has, and I'll show that next week.

Given the above, I believe that the worst thing Vintage players can do is suggest that the format is "broken" somehow now and in need of repair, or to carry the belief that Time Vault is driving away players, because tournament results are suggesting that is simply not true.  I thought the targets of my bitterness were clear:  those who intend to relentlessly carry on this debate by suggesting we need to petition the DCI, or add banned / restricted changes to their signatures on TMD, or engage in suggested card designs that "deal with" Time Vault in some narrow fashion.

I'll answer your specific points later.  I wasn't trying to say your post was "whining" and in fact I just encouraged people to vent, so I apologize if that's how it read - but you have to admit your Bomberman point was stretching things a bit, right?

[madmanmike25]

How is it stretching things when the 2 recent Bomberman threads both contain Vault/Key?  When I pointed out that Oath now runs Vault was that stretching it?  Again my point is that the most powerful decks that run some, if not all, of the "busted" cards (not gonna list them again) have yet another way to win with Vault.

At any rate, I'm glad you can at least admit that it is format warping.

[Ummmyeh13]

What is considered stretching is the idea of mentioning Bomberman. Maybe I am completely ignorant to some outstanding tournament success that Bomber has had within the past...year? However Oath has been seen having tournament success (not-quite-large-scale-tournament-success-by-Menendian's-standards-but-oh-well) playing Vault-Key. One of these two is slightly more relevant (read: not "stretching it") than the other. That makes your mention of it come off as someone who either regularly plays or touches on Bomberman, and as such, feels that it needs to be mentioned (contrary to popular Vintage opinion I might add).

Oh, and come on (quite the popular phrase in this thread), Elves has had more T8/Wins than Bomberman in recent times (let's call it a year for the sake of arguing).

[voltron00x]

How is it stretching things when the 2 recent Bomberman threads both contain Vault/Key?  When I pointed out that Oath now runs Vault was that stretching it?  Again my point is that the most powerful decks that run some, if not all, of the "busted" cards (not gonna list them again) have yet another way to win with Vault.

At any rate, I'm glad you can at least admit that it is format warping.

Threads containing proposed lists that haven't influenced the format in real life are not relevant when you're discussing what the format actually IS.  That's my point.

I'd also suggest that a lot of people picking up Vroman Oath are former Tezz players, so you have people from one Key/Vault strategy switching to another.  That doesn't suggest any type of uptick in the meta % or performance of Time Vault.  If anything, it shows a diversifying format.  The Vroman Oath decks are Yawg Willl decks as much as they are Time Vault decks.  Combo Oath that could win on 2 Oath activations is not new, it is only Iona that has made that strategy tier one (at the moment).

Obviously decks that are affected by Null Rod play bounce/removal for it - that's why I listed B/R Shops and Meandeck Beats.  Beats has a clock and can turn off countermagic and tutors as well as disrupting mana, and it plays removal for Vault on top.  Null Rod is only one piece of disruption for B/R Shops, which has CotV to turn off those removal / bounce spells as well as the prison lock pieces to make them impossible to resolve - not to mention Welder, etc.  

Again, i read your statements as suggesting that you think Time Vault is a wrecking ball that can't be stopped - if that's true, why can't it win tournaments all of sudden?  This is the mentality I'm trying to argue against.  And if we can't use tournament results to frame this discussion, why have it?

Whenever I hear or read stuff like this, all I see is Nick Detwiler in May and June of this year.

Nick probably doubled his power collection after Time Vault entered Vintage and before TFK was restricted because he understood how to build a deck that attacked Tezzeret and Time Vault strategies.  I have no doubt that if Stephen or any other player of his caliber were playing Meandeck Beats repeatedly, they would have similar success with it.  It wasn't a fluke that John Donovan made the T8 at Vintage Champs this year.

[Shean]

While I don't intend to discuss Bomberman or Elves (big letdown, I know), I would like to comment on Vault+Key:

I do not feel that the current metagame in Vintage is unbalanced.  In fact, I feel that the current Vintage metagame promotes viability.  Sure, a lot of decks play Vault+Key.  What's the problem?  I have been watching tournament results and I really feel that the T8s are much more diverse than they were before.  Think about what has T8d since Zendikar was released:

Tezz
Oath (Vault+Key or not)
Stax (MonoR, R/B, 5c)
Fish/Beats (GW, BUG, Meandeck Beats)
The Deck
TPS
Ichorid
Workshop Aggro
ANT
WGD

I'm most likely missing some, but I hope you get the point.  The point of the B/R list is not, in my opinion, to prevent decks from playing the same win condition.  The point of the B/R list is to promote the viability of the largest number of decks.  Right now, there are a ton of good decks that you can take to a tournament and have a chance of mating T8, provided that you are a good player.

[Demonic Attorney]

Let's not let this thread degenerate into a flamewar or another argument over changes to the B/R list, please.

[madmanmike25]

Now you're up to a Full Warning for ignoring moderator instructions and posting complaints about moderation to the boards.  I think it's best if you continued with your plan to "retract your participation" in this thread, because you're really having problems staying out of trouble here.  -DA

[voltron00x]

When I say we're moving into a post-Vault era, I don't mean that Vault is no longer good - quite the opposite.  What I mean is that its time to treat Time Vault as a card in the format, and not "the format".  Its time to take a good, hard look at what's been winning the last three months and start talking about how diverse and healthy the Vintage metagame is right now, not continue to discuss "saving" Vintage or the damaging effect of Vault on attendance when it isn't clear that Vintage needs saving or that, globally, attendance is even down... certainly near me, the opposite is true.

[Womba]

One thing I want to toss into the discussion of time vault is the speed at which it can take over games. I mention this only because without time vault what is there to keep dredge decks in check aside from packing 10-12 cards in the SB or even worse, having to pack hate in the main deck.....?

[voltron00x]

One thing I want to toss into the discussion of time vault is the speed at which it can take over games. I mention this only because without time vault what is there to keep dredge decks in check aside from packing 10-12 cards in the SB or even worse, having to pack hate in the main deck.....?

Cmon, you taking the over or under on 250 Ichorid hate cards in SBs, out of 1005?

Any guess what the most popular hate card was?

[Womba]

One thing I want to toss into the discussion of time vault is the speed at which it can take over games. I mention this only because without time vault what is there to keep dredge decks in check aside from packing 10-12 cards in the SB or even worse, having to pack hate in the main deck.....?

Cmon, you taking the over or under on 250 Ichorid hate cards in SBs, out of 1005?

Any guess what the most popular hate card was?

I'm going to take the over with that and the most popular probably being Leyline followed by Trap; although I could see Crypt pulling the upset here.....

[scifiantihero]

For fun I will go with 'under.'  My guess would be leyline as well!

[voltron00x]

It is over 300, I'll say that much.  And Leyline was the most popular, with 83 in the field.

It is my honest belief that Bridge from Below is the card that warps Vintage the most.

[senpai]

I wish to comment that I completely agree with your statement on how we need to move on and accept time vault as a part of the format.  Wizard's really isn't likely to do something to "fix" vintage in terms of Time Vault, it is simply up to us to do that.

[Yare]

I'll take over on 250. One fourth of 15 cards is 3.75 cards and I figure that most decks had at least 4 dredge sideboard cards (probably even 6, 7, or 8), so I'm guessing the total count is close to 335.

Sphinx was probably the most popular Tinker target.

Oh, and my guess was formulated before I read the "it's over 300, I'll tell you that much" comment. Really.