[FREE Article] The Return of The Deck!

[Smmenen]

The latest Meandeck creation.  

The Return of The Deck.

'Nuff said.

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/18454_So_Many_Insane_Plays_The_Return_of_The_Deck.html

(Ok, so, in this article I build The Deck from the ground up, explaining all of the card selection issues, the card selection process, and how I arrived at my final decklist.)

Enjoy!

[pierce]

great effort. consider swapping a gorrilla shaman for a reb vs fish after boarding.
also, inkwell is far harder to deal with for the fish player. if I knew that were the tinker target, I would fight over the tinker. any other target can be removed at ease with edict or stp--though titan is prob the 2nd worse resolved bot.

[sean1i0]

Wow! Amazing article about an amazing deck!  Like so many people the Deck was how I learned to play Vintage, so I'm thrilled to see its return!  Also, thank you so much for having another article that showcases your deckbuilding process.  I find that everytime I read over a different case of it being used I come away with a different insight.  In fact, I am all in favor of you continuing to showcase this process much more in the future, because I really think that it is one of the most important and undertaught/learned skills in Vintage.  Thanks!

[MirariKnight]

Although Titan is really good (especially when you run the City of Brass + Mana Denial Lands + Crucible) I still can't see how Sphinx isn't the ultimate guy against Fish. He's Pro-Pridemage and literally impossible to race. There's only 2-3 cards that answer him that don't answer Inkwell (StP, Chain of Vapor, Echoing Truth) that Fish might be running; I can't really see how Inkwell is better for that matchup. Titan just seem generally useful, but against Fish he's dead meat vs. Pridemage even if that costs lands.

As I see it, Tinker is at its best vs. Fish. Against Tezz, Oath, Storm or Dredge robots are relatively useless, and I guess against Stax it's decent esp. if your guy is unweldable. Fish is the matchup where you really need Tinker -> guy, in my experience. Sphinx is the best vs. Fish, and any unweldable guy is good vs. Stax, which would lead me to the conclusion that Sphinx is the way to go. I'd probably board out Robot vs. anything else, and sometimes bring in Helm depending on the matchup.

Aside from that, great article again Steve. You've been on a hot streak lately. I really like seeing you apply this deckbuilding technique to different decks; it seems like a really good way to go about it and I'm surprised it hasn't been brought up before. I'm really liking The Deck right now.


Edit: Aside from Sower, Deed is amazing against Fish. I'd probably have another in the board, cutting down to 2 Sowers. Deed removes Null Rod and just about anything else. There are very few matchups where I don't want to see a Deed.
Another card that I'm curious about is Balance. I don't think it would be that hard to run it with 4x City without needing a Tundras; I've always played it in Oath with just the Orchards and artifacts and been fine.

[MaxxMatt]

great effort. consider swapping a gorrilla shaman for a reb vs fish after boarding.
also, inkwell is far harder to deal with for the fish player. if I knew that were the tinker target, I would fight over the tinker. any other target can be removed at ease with edict or stp--though titan is prob the 2nd worse resolved bot.

Fish.dec are equipped with HRecall. Every robot has his killer bouncer.
Titan is stronger only because of his CIP: while it can be dealt such as other robot, its sinergy with the denial plan is better than his presence on board.
Basic lands can't be killed with ease with almost any deck. Shaman and Wasteland are enough to soft lock opponents.
STitan is the quickest way to kill them all

IMHO, when you are playing control decks such as Keeper or TheDeck, you should not resolve things to win, even if it is your fat robot entering the battlefield
Your goal will be always the same.
Kill their board forcing them conceding the game: the ways you'll use to accomplish this single goal could be as different as your mastery with the deck will decide.

Another card that I'm curious about is Balance. I don't think it would be that hard to run it with 4x City without needing a Tundras; I've always played it in Oath with just the Orchards and artifacts and been fine.

I maindecked it in my own lastly proposed build, here too.
click
I rise up to 4 the number of CoB for a better support of Green spells, too.
I'm not a fan of Sower, so I opted for Balance as sweeper for bad board positions.

Retrospectively thinking, I'm sure playing multiple Sowers and additional board chumper such as Shamans or Heretics should force you avoiding the Balance play.
Every other game situation I can think of, usually force me to prefer Balance, even if it white, even if I play another color only for it.


MM

[zeus-online]

Did you have to write an article that makes me want to subscribe again, just before x-mas?

I agree with the others that it's a little weird that you did not mention balance at all? It was one of keeper's biggest bombs for about 10 years.

Great article all over, and the deck looks to be a blast to play.

I'm not sure if i agree with mana drain being bad against shops though...My tactic against shop decks when playing drain decks is pretty much survive till drain gets up, and then present drain at all times only doing stuff at the end of their turn until you can win (In this case, lock them out)

Edit:
Oh, i am on the "Sphinx is the man" team. It beats fish almost singlehandedly almost regardless of board position...I've lost 1 game after resolving tinker for sphinx against fish, and there was an active selkie with 2 exalted dudes in play.

[pierce]

my opinion on the bot is purely empirical rather than theoretical. Inkwell is the only resolved tinker target I have not beaten in a tournament setting while playing both UWB fae/fish and BUG fish. This includes a turn one sphinx.
as such, I fear inkwell.

[Smmenen]

great effort. consider swapping a gorrilla shaman for a reb vs fish after boarding.
also, inkwell is far harder to deal with for the fish player. if I knew that were the tinker target, I would fight over the tinker. any other target can be removed at ease with edict or stp--though titan is prob the 2nd worse resolved bot.

remember, my anti fish list began with four sower.   Given that, I felt that Titan is probably the best tinker target.   The game plan is to win with sowers and creatures stolen with sower.   I do love inky tho.

Did you have to write an article that makes me want to subscribe again, just before x-mas?

I agree with the others that it's a little weird that you did not mention balance at all? It was one of keeper's biggest bombs for about 10 years.

Great article all over, and the deck looks to be a blast to play.

I'm not sure if i agree with mana drain being bad against shops though...My tactic against shop decks when playing drain decks is pretty much survive till drain gets up, and then present drain at all times only doing stuff at the end of their turn until you can win (In this case, lock them out)

Edit:
Oh, i am on the "Sphinx is the man" team. It beats fish almost singlehandedly almost regardless of board position...I've lost 1 game after resolving tinker for sphinx against fish, and there was an active selkie with 2 exalted dudes in play.

Yeah, it's not that I think that Mana Drain is "bad" against Shops, so much as it is that I think that Annul or Spell Pierce are better

[MaxxMatt]

Another card that I'm curious about is Balance. I don't think it would be that hard to run it with 4x City without needing a Tundras; I've always played it in Oath with just the Orchards and artifacts and been fine.

I'm not speaking for Steve, but I'm quite sure to be able to evaluate its exclusion from TheDeck from his perspective.

Balance at a first glance, interact with both board and hand restoring parity in the cheapest and direct way in magic: two mana for 3 major effects never replaced by similar cards for the same cost.

Steve, thinking ahead the cards themselves and putting a lot of weight on the game plan role, put TheDeck in a good board position and a possibly better cards advantage one against a lot of decks. Balance, when you are in need of using it as "reset button" can't leave your board untouched and it will consume a lot of the edge you had over opponents only to kill critters

Drawers give you cards, denial plan eats opponents mana: the only strong component of the game usually escapes from this positive scenario is the flood of opponents creatures. While they are slower on winning rather than any other cards usually chosen to win, weenies are a plague if you rely only on your life points buffer and removals to survive.

While dead anticreatures cards in a modern vintage metagame such as WrathofGod/StP or slower ones such as The Abyss/Moat can't be used in an efficient way, Balance and its own interaction with lands, cards and creatures seems FAR more appealing.

I'm with him about Sower of Temptation being able to cover the "creatures' sweeper role" better than Balance because it will consume opponents resources without touching ours at all.

On the contrary, I'm not a fan of Balance exclusion. It is more than a reset button, more than a creatures killers or a board/hand control: mastering Balance usage, timing it well, playing to maximize global effect will transform this cheap old card in the best game sweeper

You are going to put opponents down with this single card. Balance, when used at its maximum hose players and entire decks : they frantically try to win, you are unlucky, the game goes on, opponents resources will kill you... and when you reveal Balance, anything appear linear and clear: you are doomed.

Counterintuitively, you can't always abuse of Balance every game in the same way: sometimes you have to carefully evaluate upon its resolution, often you have to quickly tutor for it and then start to gain board/cards advantage, a couple of times it seems unplayable: only the game and your foresight can reveal you the real strength of Balance, game after game. I'm sure its quality is precious in this deck far more than others.

IMHO, TheDeck rather than simply a "YWill.dec" ( such as a lot of different ones playable nowdays ) has inner and more specific layers of lecture: my preferred one is seeing it as a "BalanceMindtwist.dec": if you can be able focus your winning strategy around these two cards and ABUSE of their own single/coupled effects, you have a winning edge over 80-90% of the field and the rest of the deck will be only a "global coral spell" enabling Balance and Mindtwist.

At now, I'm maindecking Balance, cutting AncientGrudge#2. If metagame will require a different winning approach to the game( speedycombo/ madness/weird decks come back? ) I'll put it in sideboard for sure. ...but excluding it at all, IMHO, will be a decision impossible to take!

MaxxMatt  

[Tiki Walker]

Greetings.

I have stopped playing T1 completely since the onset of mass blue cards restrictions. To me it is akin to putting expenditure caps on Formula I race or perhaps Football clubs.

However, to some extent I still try to follow the development of T1, and one day as I found out there are several attempts to redesign and reuse this deck in 2009 as is apparent from Starcity articles by Patrick Chapin and here in themanadrain. Needless to say I am very interested and become very curious to see what is this recent incarnations of The Deck all about.

I started playing T1 because of this deck, and it was solely because of it I patiently collected all of its necessary ingredients one by one until I completed building it. It is the only T1 deck that will always have a very special place in my heart. It always provoked thought to play properly, could always be improved, and won in direct proportion to its pilot' skill. I mostly enjoyed playing with it and following its development, except during a brief period when at a certain stage of its development it tried to rely excessively on mana denial plan, the unexpected chosen approach which I disliked.

Seeing the latest lists whether in Starcity or in themanadrain site, I cannot help to become very curious of its current contents, and why suddenly this deck is deemed plausible again for T1. Is it because the environment becomes slower?

From what I gather around themanadrain, the proposed meandeck list in the starcity premium is likely to have several Spell Pierce and or Annuls, Force of Wills, the staple Blue cards and Tutors, Tinker target(s?), perhaps a Pernicious Deed, some Gorilla Shamans, and Sower(s?).

In particular, since I do not have access to the starcity premium, I would really like to understand what are the reasons behind the decision to use Sower as the pinpoint removal of choice for this latest incarnations, and I would really expect to read better arguments than mere to raise the number of Blue spells to support Force of Wills.

With 2 as its casting cost and without flash, it is a steeply priced, sorcery speed anti creature. What creatures exactly one wish to steal with this creature? Colossus? Titan? I thought that nowadays people are more fond of using Inkwells. Is it to steal Dark Confidants? Tarmogoyffs? Dark Confidant is cheaper and generally can come out faster than Sower. Can this deck really afford to tap out  2 during its turn to deal with enemy Dark Confidant ASAP to prevent more cards filling enemy's hands, or to prevent imminent death from Tarmogoyff beats? After game 1 if the enemy support red then REB and or Pyroblast might come in to kill or counter the Sower. The solution is temporary, not a permanent one. At the most it is a 1 for 2 card advantage.

Moreover, how realistic would it be the chance of resolving a sorcery speed, 2   casting cost and expecting it to remains in play to steal enemy's creatures when as a result of the popularity of Tezzeret control and such; most likely opposing decks would be packing nearly full compliment of Null Rods, backed up by their own mana denial plan, counters, pressures from utility creatures, and fast clock from Tarmogoyffs?

If it is pinpoint removal that is needed, given the nature of creatures that are commonly used in T1 why smother is not considered, for example? What about the old staple such as Swords to Plowshares or perhaps Path to Exile. It is already a multicolored control deck, if it already supports 4 City of Brass + Fetchlands probably it won't be hard to support a couple Tundras?

If it is one to many effects like the old versions which is needed, and it is considered not hard for the deck to tap 4 mana out during one's turn to handle enemy creatures, perhaps this deck can use 1 anti creature enchantment as a form of persistent one to many effect? I understand that Moat and The Abyss have their own holes, what about enchantment such as Humility, then?

Nevertheless, all being said I am still really looking forward to read the full article, be it 3 months from now.
I really liked the proposed 5 steps to design your own deck very much which I read in the article regarding how to design one's GrowATog a while ago. I guess this recent article regarding the Return of The Deck also contains more or less the proposed 5 steps, albeit applied now to reconstruct this deck.

As with Balance and Timetwister, like Avanzo I think that they required thoughts and considerations to play correctly.

[MaxxMatt]

The article, aside from compelling the needed mathematical routine based on which you can find the best choices depending on the percentage of opponents different archetypes expected, didn't explain Sower choices in a deep way.

Steve's argument don't take into account about being or not being able to resolve 3 or 4 Sowers: if TheDeck can stabilize his mana against aggrocontrol denial and gain tempo through moxen dealing with NRods on board, Sowers are really game breaking. Otherwise, their impact of this critter over the game can be compared to multiple hypercosted but pitchable Moat.

Because of the lack of basic lands in multiples, this TheDeck version need more time to stabilize against Wastelands. Anyway, 27/28 mana fonts are a lot more than the usual number of lands generally used before blue.spells.restrictions: if you can survive the first critical turns, lands superiority will weight in your favour and you'll be able to resolve Sowers and start stealing and winning with their own creatures.


Smother ( such as other different cards choices ) is considered in the article but it lacks about Balance/Timetwister argument at all.
It seems to me Steve/Chapin aren't willingly going to justify their lack at now: these cards, while having more than a simple "historical value" can be considered to difficult to interpretate game by game  and master without the needed knowledge of the metagame. The article and the little theory Steve exposed can occupy pages only about this argument, so in the end, I suppose their discussion can be left to a forum and not to a stand alone paper.

[Smmenen]

I actually really like Balance in The Deck.   However, do not overestimate its historical importance.   Balance was a huge component in Keeper, but was almost always in the sideboard of Weissman's mid-90s lists.   Balance was never an integral part of The Deck like it was Keeper.  

http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/The_Deck

In lieu of Balance I've included Pernicious Deed.  

Deed is good against Oath, Stax, Fish and Tezzeret, which can't go infinte with Time Vault as long as Deed is in play. 

[pierce]

my contention was specifically with regards to a single cards discussion, but within context of the deck (The Deck, in this case) you are correct--the added bonus of having sower tips the balance greatly in your favor. for it's overall versitility, titan seems like a great choice. especially with 4 wastland and strip mine.

I also agree with deed over balance. no one plays stifle right now in fish (link me to a t8 decklist if I am wrong). Moreover, without having played a game with The Deck, I'm assuming that you can often have either more cards in hand or lands in play than your opponent (i.e wasteland package, mindtwist). Balance for just a sweeper will often be a pricey effect on such hard earned advantages. deed, in addition to hitting artifacts, will never have this drawback.

I would never play The Deck--it's just not my style, even if it were tier one, I would have more fun playing another tier one deck--but the logic shown to reach the starting 60 is great. One of your best articles this year.

[DuKeLiO]

In summer, after reading the Chapin article, I quickly assembled his version of the deck. I made some changes, the two firsts were remove Meloku, that it is not a good Vintage card for a Sphinx of the Steel Wind, that is a good tinker target were Sundering aren`t, against Stax (really there is not Stax in Spain, only MUDs) and Ichorid. It is also a better target against Fish, beacuse a lot of fishes were not playing with swords to plowshares maindeck beacuse of Inkwell Leviathan.
The second change were Diabolic Edict for Balance. And Balance has proven to myself like a great bomb in a lot of scenarios. I played Keeper in three tournaments before Mindbreak Trap were printed and move to RemoraTrap deck.

This was my list in these three tournaments:

2009 Keeper

4 Force Of Will
4 Mana Drain
1 Misdirection
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Tinker
1 Rebuild
1 Thirst For Knowledge
1 Cunning Wish
1 Fact Or Fiction
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Sower Of Temptation
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mind Twist
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Balance
1 Regrowth
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Fire / Ice
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Sundering Titan

1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Island
3 City Of Brass
2 Flooded Strand
1 Library Of Alexandria
2 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tundra
4 Wasteland

SB:
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Sower of Temptation
3 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Extirpate
1 Yixlid Jailer
1 Darkblast
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 REB
1 Pyroblast
1 Ancient Grudge


I also changed the sideboard completly. With Sphinx you do not need the Helm Combo, if you draw tinker, you can go for the Sphinx and win easy against Stax without having to side in not so good cards like Leyline of the Void, specially against the welderless versions like MUD. Also added Ethersworn Cannonist against storm decks, specially the most played here in these moment: Drain Tendrils variants. However against pure combo decks this sideboard are not enough. TPS killed me easy in EurOvino tournament. However here in Spain the list works fine with a victory in the Madrid League(with my only loss being an awful monoblack deck) and a 4-2-1 with losses against Tezzeret(a good pairing having the nuts) and Ichrorid.

I like the idea of Pernicious Deed. Sure, it is useful against Stax, Fish, Oath and Tezzeret and I will try it. Also I prefer Mindbreak Trap over Misdirection, beacuse it is not so dead against Stax for example, I will test to remove white and add the Pernicious Deed for Balance and Cannonist for Mindbreak Traps.

I don't like Crucible of Worlds. I think it is not neccesary and I see it like a win more card. I prefer in the Steven version play with the Sphinx. Two tinker targets aren't a problem in the deck beacuse you can play them often, and with City of brass the white mana in Sphinx casting costs rarely will be a problem.

[kalisia]

I don't understand why people want absolutely to play Cities of Brass.
The Cities provide a weak mana base, just for few splash cards like REB or Grudge.
It's IMO completely possible to play similar cards in the main colors.
Pernicious Deed IS the new Balance, even better in a lot of matchups.
It's easier to keep fecthlands and go for Green. The deck has all it needs with Deed, Regrowth and Life from the Loam.
And 2 Deeds seem enough not to add Grudges.
The only advantage of City of Brass would be Titan, but Sphinx seems really better in almost all the matchups.
Titan is terrible against Bant Fish (Qasali & Trygon), and should stay in the sideboard for control mirrors.

[zeus-online]

I actually really like Balance in The Deck.   However, do not overestimate its historical importance.   Balance was a huge component in Keeper, but was almost always in the sideboard of Weissman's mid-90s lists.   Balance was never an integral part of The Deck like it was Keeper.  

http://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/The_Deck

In lieu of Balance I've included Pernicious Deed.  

Deed is good against Oath, Stax, Fish and Tezzeret, which can't go infinte with Time Vault as long as Deed is in play.  

And what exactly, except for time periods, is the difference between the deck and keeper? From what i've read, seen and played the decks are pretty much the same thing. And balance was moved to the maindeck of The Deck once its power was recognised (Also to answer the necro decks).

I'm not saying balance is a must, i just don't recall you mentioning it all in the article which i find strange due to its past performance and importance.

[Smmenen]

That's a fair point.    The reason I didn't discuss Balance in the article was because I was carefully adhering to the 5 step process.   And Balance did not make the cut in any one of those lists.   That said, it was probably worthy of mention on account of why I didn't include it, particularly because I initially did include it.   I ultimately didn't because of Patrick.  He didn't like it, and I was sold on Deed. 

I don't understand why people want absolutely to play Cities of Brass.
The Cities provide a weak mana base, just for few splash cards like REB or Grudge.
It's IMO completely possible to play similar cards in the main colors.

I think part of the idea here is to take advantage of the breadth of the card pool, and not substitute weaker cards in the same colors. 

[sean1i0]

Well, while I, too, agree that Balance is incredibly powerful (duh!) and willl probably be a right call in some metagames, I can see where the inclusion of Pernicious Deed would sort of fill its role.  I also see where Balance and Sower are at odds.  Not to say that the two can't be run in the same deck, but I can say that the combination of the two (along with some of the other cards in the deck) would put forward a strong case to omit Balance for the intended metagame.  Having said that, Crucible is a great card to help abuse Balance and I will certainly keep my eye out for situations as I play/play against the Deck where Balance would have been crucial, because it's the type of card that, when it's role is needed, can't be replaced.  It can be supplemented, but not replaced.

I am certain though (from testing it in other decks and in Legacy) that Deed is amazing and does exactly what is needed.

[MaxxMatt]

I'm really intrigued about these deckbuilding arguments because they bring me back of at least 4 years, when TheDeck/Keeper sees play and the pile was usually dissected card by card in order to build it perfectly for a "current" meta.

Metagame described by Steve's statistics is accurate. Keeper can be played again because board control and pure cards advantage can be applied towards a slowed down field. Decks usually win a full turn later than 2 years ago, so denial plan and "1forX" strategies are online again.

I'm not convinced at all by any argument brought against ( or not supporting ) Balance insertion.
The way way way most sincere one is: "Pat Chapin didn't like it anymore and I didn't convince him enough to play it in our proposed deck".
It isn't an explanation at all, but at least, it is a sincere confession.



Aritcle Steve wrote is directed to a new audience, not a more experienced one. He is trying to gather new players dissecting new/old playdecks and this is a good move for Vintage itself.
IMHO, inherently difficult-to-be-played cards such as Timetwister or Balance are really challenging for a new player that is going to play Keeper for first time. Put a Tinker-for-Robot into his hand and you'll see him controlling, with reset buttons and disruptive spells, the game these few crucial turn needed to win.

Leave them without discards effects and they with feel "nude" against unknown opponents
Suggest them Titan instead of cruel and extralarge killers and some of them will switch for the latters instantly
Put difficult cards in their hands and without the needed experience, only few of them will find their real benefits.

Think about Balance itself.
Putting weight and underlining the little negative effects of losing some resources when you are not able to maximize his effect is myopic.

Balance in your initial hand, with some mana accelerant translate itself in an unmisdirectionable Mindtwist. This lone effect in the first or second turn of the game is deadly because they will lose spells and often some precious mana fonts: their game plan will be ruined ( or at least slowed down ) at the cost of two mana. You used Moxen to lower the number of cards in your hand, maybe they made a land drop while you had used only Lotus and Mox. They'll lose their land, some cards, you'll mantain your moxen on board and from there you'll procede to establish mana superiority and draw into resolvable bombs. If your goal is to reset his board from a quick Confidant AND MIndtwist a bit his hand, your higher number of lands will let you lose one or two lands if needed, too. Balance and its threefold effect can always let you abuse of at least one or two of them. It is far more greater than resolving a Sower or a Pernicious Deed.

Balance will save you when you are thin on lands and your opponent make land drop after land drop. Turn 3 or 4 you are stuck at some mana accelerations and a land or two. He plays lands and mana, you can chump artifacts with Shamans and lands with Balance/Wasteland combination. I'm thinking at abusing it more in this deck rather than in any other one. You have Shamans, Titan and multiple Strips: there are plenty of plannable combination with which you are ahead against oppoents coupling their effect with Balance. You can Balance and they leave their best lands on board. You opt for City of Brass and then kill their basics with Titan. Quickly. Deadly. Shaman support this denial strategy at maximum. Sowers steal critters when needed and the most "intelligent" are them the best benefit you'll gain from the steal. In these scenarios, Balance isn't simply a tool, a redundant spell: it is a strategy enhancer when you need to "start from a point" and from there plan to build a win. Balance IS one of the CRUCIAL spells for your wins, such as Tinker, Tutors, Mindtwist or Y.Will.

Balance itself, CAN be coupled with Sowers/Shamans, too. At a first glance, you will find difficult to accept that a board sweeper such as Balance will function so well when you have a creature in play. But Sowers steal creatures... so, give parity to the board when you can both optimize lands count and cards in hand count AND THEN steal their last creature. Maybe they have Stifles for your resolved and off color Deed, maybe they are flooding the board with large creatures and Sowers resolved too late... in those scenarios, Balance itself with a Shaman on board or a Sowers on battlefield, will give you an extraordinary breath of air, too. None says it is simple, linear or easy to abuse: I'm just saying it is too good not to be played, especially in a deck dedicated to control the board and the game, winning only over this gained edge.

So few things said and so many microuse for such a versatile spell. It is easy to accept the lack of Balance only if you played it few times, only if you are a young player, only if you don't want to constantly mumble during a tournament because of the inherently difficulty of your chosen spells. Balance is one of them. Difficult to abuse but so powerful and cheap that while refusing its use is a bit myopic, switching on the brain and try to maximize it is challenging and satisfying.





Timetwister can be considered another "critical spell difficult to abuse" and "with some inherent risks". I'm not sure about its maindeck insertion in my build because in my metagame, combo is huge and ichorid is not as frequent as in America. Instead, for a pletora of reasons I'll insert it in a TheDeck build in US because of Oath, Ichorid, Tezz, Fish: against all those archetypes, Timetwister is asimmetrical at his maximum. Oath and Ichorid are dedicated to put things into the grave and win through it. You have constantly a better board position against them and Timetwister will re.shuffle both their useful and useless cards. Their grave will promptly disappear and the game will "restart" but with you with a monster board position and cards parity. Huge advantage over those opponents. Fish will consume your resources such as you but you mana superiority can let you start with fresh bombs quickly than him. The same argument can be applied to Tezz: your denial plan with Shaman and Titan will reshuffle their moxen and lands aside with spells. You'll have a better cards quality over their own after Timetwister. A lot of gas for you and fewer spells for them. Think about Leyline of the Void and Timetwister. You can reshuffle resources while opponents can't. Your desruptive power will be enhanced by these two coupled effects without the need to quickly kill with Helm: from this board position, the way you choose to win is the real WIN MORE spell because you have already won. Timetwister and Regrowth can continuously refill hands if needed without letting you to be decked. TCrypts, Mindtwist, Counterspells, Fetchlands or Leyline make this process completely asymmetrical.

Intelligent use of those two simmetrical cards mute them into completely ASYMMETRICAL bombs. I'm fond of complex magic game puzzle and outplaying decisions over opponents: Mindtwist, Balance, Timetwister, Tinker, YWill are all BOMBS with devastating effects. Giving credits only to the EASY ONES isn't correct at all: people must LEARN how to abuse of all of them. Leave them out and you'll play a castrated ( but still good ) deck.

MAxxMAtt

[DuKeLiO]

Yesterday I played ten or so games with Stephen build (with Sphinx for Crucible) against Noble Fish and certainly lose some games for not having Balance in the deck. Balance is cheaper than Penicious Deed what seems very slow against Quasali Pridemage.
I remove the second Ancient Grudge for Balance and the second Volcanic Island for a Tundra and feel better with the deck. Also re-made the sideboard completly:

3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Sower of Temptation
2/3 Ravenous Trap
1 Yixlid Jailer
0/1 Extirpate - Not sure about this card. Ravenous is better against Ichorid, but Extirpate is useful against more decks.
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Darkblast
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 REB
1 Pyroblast
1 Krosan Grip

I'm not sure about Timetwister. The card is power without doubt, but against control-combo and combo it is a very risky move.

[Tiki Walker]

Yesterday I played ten or so games with Stephen build (with Sphinx for Crucible) against Noble Fish and certainly lose some games for not having Balance in the deck.

How was that main deck Sower(s) doing for you in that particular matchup against Mike Noble's Blue Bell 1st UGW Aggro Control. Could you comfortably steal and get to keep any of your opponent's creatures game 1 and 2 at least 50% of the time with enough operational mana in play without him being able to do anything about it?

[Smmenen]

Yesterday I played ten or so games with Stephen build (with Sphinx for Crucible) against Noble Fish and certainly lose some games for not having Balance in the deck. Balance is cheaper than Penicious Deed what seems very slow against Quasali Pridemage.
I remove the second Ancient Grudge for Balance and the second Volcanic Island for a Tundra and feel better with the deck. Also re-made the sideboard completly:

The list was not built with Noble Fish in mind, since Noble Fish has seen a steep decline in the US.   Rather, the list was built with BUG Fish in mind.   Try testing my list against BUG fish. 

[MirariKnight]

Yesterday I played ten or so games with Stephen build (with Sphinx for Crucible) against Noble Fish and certainly lose some games for not having Balance in the deck. Balance is cheaper than Penicious Deed what seems very slow against Quasali Pridemage.
I remove the second Ancient Grudge for Balance and the second Volcanic Island for a Tundra and feel better with the deck. Also re-made the sideboard completly:

The list was not built with Noble Fish in mind, since Noble Fish has seen a steep decline in the US.   Rather, the list was built with BUG Fish in mind.   Try testing my list against BUG fish. 

What cards do you think would be optimal vs. Noble Fish?

Ideas off the top of my head are:
Balance
Massacre
Pyroclasm
Sphinx
Perish


I'm sure there are other good cards as well, that's just what I came up with off the top of my head.

I've been testing this the last few days and the one issue I've had is winning the game. It's amazingly powerful and quite easy to achieve total control with almost any hand, but if the opponent doesn't just concede it's hard to actually deal 20 pts. of damage (especially in timed rounds). Titan is pretty easy to answer as the only real win con...I'm wondering if there's another card that can just win the game to supplement it. I'm trying Time Vault + Tezz, maybe maindeck Obeyline.
This is especially true vs. Oath because you have to board out all guys.

[smasher]

What cards do you think would be optimal vs. Noble Fish?

Darkblast has been pretty good for me. It's not a perfect solution but in combination with other stuff it deals with all the trash you'd just assume not waste your sowers or whatever else on. I like your pyroclasm and balance the best of your listed choices.

[Smmenen]

Yesterday I played ten or so games with Stephen build (with Sphinx for Crucible) against Noble Fish and certainly lose some games for not having Balance in the deck. Balance is cheaper than Penicious Deed what seems very slow against Quasali Pridemage.
I remove the second Ancient Grudge for Balance and the second Volcanic Island for a Tundra and feel better with the deck. Also re-made the sideboard completly:

The list was not built with Noble Fish in mind, since Noble Fish has seen a steep decline in the US.   Rather, the list was built with BUG Fish in mind.   Try testing my list against BUG fish.  

What cards do you think would be optimal vs. Noble Fish?

Ideas off the top of my head are:
Balance
Massacre
Pyroclasm
Sphinx
Perish

Perish is particularly powerful, as its so good against the Beats decks as well.   Those are all options to consider.   In my view, the answer is to board in a ton of Sowers, as I suggested.   You are a dog game 1, and you'll just have to accept that against Noble Fish.  

I'm sure there are other good cards as well, that's just what I came up with off the top of my head.

I've been testing this the last few days and the one issue I've had is winning the game. It's amazingly powerful and quite easy to achieve total control with almost any hand, but if the opponent doesn't just concede it's hard to actually deal 20 pts. of damage (especially in timed rounds). Titan is pretty easy to answer as the only real win con...I'm wondering if there's another card that can just win the game to supplement it. I'm trying Time Vault + Tezz, maybe maindeck Obeyline.
This is especially true vs. Oath because you have to board out all guys.

Obeyline.   Try two maindeck Leylines and Helm.  That's what Patrick recommended in his original article, and what some of my teammates have been running.   It's true that hte deck is light on win conditions.    In fact, you should be boarding that combo in agianst decks like Stax, where Leyline works well.  Helm is then auto win, and superior to Titan as a Tinker target.  

The other win condition is Stroke in the SB, as a Cunning Wish target.  That's a big reason that it's in there.  

Against Oath you want Obeyline.   Read Vroman's tournament report where he faced Doug Linn.  

EDIT:

One other option, which I've tested and reallly like, is playing with Burning Wish.  Then you can put Balance in the SB, and a Loam in there as well. 

[jester3397]

Pardon my ignorance but I always thought stroke was used to gain card advantage. How do you generate tons of mana to deck your opponent?

[Smmenen]

FYI, Patrick answered an important question on the SCG Forums, which I've cross-posted here:

What are the reasons for not running Time Vault combo in here?

You have recursion and lots of tutoring and draw.

Besides it actually lets you win the game if your titan gets extracted, just swing with Shaman or Sower 

This is the primary difference between Tez and The Deck.

Voltaic Key has almost no value in this deck beyond being 50% of a victory condition. It has the possibility of making a mana with Sol Ring or Mana Crypt, it can wash mana with Moxes, it can be Tinkered, it can be Thirsted, it could even give Sundering Titan Vigilance.  At the end of the day, though, those optionals are almost entirely trivial.  As such, it needs to be evaluated as what it really is, Tendrils of Agony that instead of needing Yawgmoth's Will or Hurkyl's Recall to win with, requires Time Vault.

Let's look at Time Vault. While Time Vault has much more "fair" action than Voltaic Key, it is not actually the sort of thing we would want, as it is primarily only good "fair" against another Blue deck that cannot easily destroy a Time Vault (you put a Turn in the bank and always threatened to "untap"). At the end of the day, however, this value is not particularly great and the real reason to use Time Vault is the hope of Voltaic Key+Time Vault (a truly great combo to be sure).

Let's look at the combo in terms of its value to us. First the upside, you get both pieces and you win. That will surely translate to a lot of free and fast wins. How much does this matter? Well the truth is, you still need to have victory conditions in your deck, so it doesn't save any space there. In addition, it assumes you have 4 mana to spend on a two card combo that somehow doesn't get intereacted with.

Let's suppose your cards were instead Fact or Fiction and Misdirection.

What if your cards were Mystical Tutor and Mana Drain?

Let's cut to the chase, what if your cards were Yawgmoths Will or Tinker and any card that helps force them through?

See, The Deck almost always wins whenever it casts Yawgmoth's Will or Tinker, which is a far superior stage 3, since it costs 1 less mana and requires only a single card, rather than 2, leaving you with another card to ensure that the kill card resolves.

Vault-Key is not actually a kill so much as it is a mechanism for securing a game winning advantage that does not to help get the advantage in the first place.

Tinker and Yawgmoth's Will win the game most of the time and even when they don't, they help tremendously for turning the tide of a game.

So why does anyone use Vault-Key?  Well, the combo is actually quite good, it is just that it is very "beatdown" and as such encourages one to make their deck more "aggressive."  Once you adopt Vault-Key, you really just want to be a Vault Key deck, since the real "cost" is playing two nearly dead cards in exchange for an amazing win the game combo. It is not hard to see that the cost of these two dead cards is the same if you Vault Key only once in a while or all the time, it is always two cards. Thus, once you have "paid this cost," you might as well do it nearly all the time, since it is the best combo and once you have gone to all the trouble of playing the two dead cards, you are might as well go get them and try to take all the turns.

If noone knew anything about Vintage, this would be the best strategy (most likely) since it is the best proactive strategy and the best combination in the game. However, people do know things about Vintage. In fact, the entire format is set up to combat this exact thing from happening. The format is built around the understanding that this is the default thing to do in Vintage and as such, artifact removal, Pithing Needles, Dredge, Force of Wills, Null Rods, Mana Denial, Sadistic Sacraments, and so much more are everywhere.

The Deck sidesteps much of the real anti-Time Vault hate, is built on all good cards that are good on their own (with the possible debate of Sundering Titan). At the same time, it has proactive plans that are superior to most (Tinker, Will, sideboard into Helmline).

Why Helmline instead?

Well, we want Leylines anyway, so we have more cards that contribute to the kill, but less dead draws plus we want dredge hate anyway. Second, the Helm actually only costs 1 slot in sideboard, but none once it is in the deck, since we take out Sundering Titan most of the time that we bring it in. We require a card that actually ends the game (since we draw more cards than most people, so the burden of proof is on us).

Finally, the helmline combo costs only 1 mana more than Vault-Key, however it usually happens much faster, since we have 4 Leylines and we have access to Tinker which can actually save mana on the combo (whereas with Vault Key, it adds mana).

[MirariKnight]

Obeyline.   Try two maindeck Leylines and Helm.  That's what Patrick recommended in his original article, and what some of my teammates have been running.   It's true that hte deck is light on win conditions.    In fact, you should be boarding that combo in agianst decks like Stax, where Leyline works well.  Helm is then auto win, and superior to Titan as a Tinker target.  

The other win condition is Stroke in the SB, as a Cunning Wish target.  That's a big reason that it's in there.  

Against Oath you want Obeyline.   Read Vroman's tournament report where he faced Doug Linn.  

EDIT:

One other option, which I've tested and reallly like, is playing with Burning Wish.  Then you can put Balance in the SB, and a Loam in there as well. 

I saw the Vroman vs. Linn match in person. Turn 1 win with Obeyline in game 3 was good, I can't deny it.
This will obviously sound ridiculous, but I tested a lot against Oath today and I think I literally lost only 1/20ish games, and the game I lost was due to my preventable mistake. However, every game I won ended with the opponent just conceding after I developed an insurmountable advantage. I think there was once where I got Obeyline off (using only 2 Leylines it was difficult to hit Leyline turn 0, and then hard to cast Leyline+Helm by themselves). The lack of win cons becomes especially salient vs. Oath where you need to board out Titan, Shaman and probably a Sower. Sower gets tricky because he comes back in game 3 - I use Sad Sac in the board so Oath goes up to 3 guys + Tezz, making Sower really good again.
I'm not really concerned with winning in general with the deck, it's more that I'm concerned about winning within the time limit of a 50 minute round.
What Patrick said about Yawg Will/Tinker is definitely spot on, although I'm really not sure if the 3 slots for Leyline+Helm are any better than the 3 slots for Tezz, Vault and Key. I know Leyline would be in the board anyway, but Helm is just as dead if not more dead than Voltaic Key would be.

I figured that I would test Sundering Titan out despite my feelings that he isn't the best option. I've played a ton of matches with him now and wished he was Sphinx/Inkwell almost every time. I find him killing mostly my own lands because I always manage to keep the opponent down on mana with Waste/Strip and sometimes Crucible. I think I'd rather he be Sphinx and get boarded out vs. control than have it be Titan, who I was often afraid to Tinker for.

[MaxxMatt]

Pardon my ignorance but I always thought stroke was used to gain card advantage. How do you generate tons of mana to deck your opponent?

I can see the reasoning behind adding old.fashioned StrokeOfGenius to sideboard: more winners against SadSac and backup plan when their removals hit our critters/recursions. Yawgmoth's Will is your standard winning method, be it used to fuel attack phases with Titan/Sowers/Shaman, be it gas and spells for a final Stroke of Genius.

Before promoting Stroke, I have to warn about his usage ( I largely play it in Keeper after Braingeyser/FoF era and before Skeletal/TFK era ): it is overcosted and misdirectionable. You don't have Tolarian Academy to fuel large Strokes, too. Missing Discard effects rather than Mindtwist, I suppose a blind Stroke can be a bit risky.

If you need a single card, bothWinner and Drawer, feel free to use Stroke of Genius.
But, due to the fact you can use Skeletal Scrying and Brainfreeze, I'm sure if you have some sideboard space, the latter configuration is FAR MORE safer and efficient to abuse.

I figured that I would test Sundering Titan out despite my feelings that he isn't the best option. I've played a ton of matches with him now and wished he was Sphinx/Inkwell almost every time. I find him killing mostly my own lands because I always manage to keep the opponent down on mana with Waste/Strip and sometimes Crucible. I think I'd rather he be Sphinx and get boarded out vs. control than have it be Titan, who I was often afraid to Tinker for.

However, every game I won ended with the opponent just conceding after I developed an insurmountable advantage.

I quote your second sentence referred to Oath matchup to your first one, dismissing Titan impact over the game. What it let you accomplish is exactly "gaining ovewhelming advantage over opponents forced to concede.
If you lose two and they lose two lands, even when in parity, you are advanced because of the higher number of mana available in the deck. Rise the number of CoB up to 4 and fetch carefully, without hurries or predictability. Fish & Oath had few mana sources, you can concentrate using Wasteland/Strips over Orchard/Manlands and Tinker for Titan to clean the board. You told us, you usually lose too many lands: Regrowth them, Crucible with them, put pressure ruining all the mana at their disposal with a midsize YWill to recurr cheap and broken spells. Avoid stealing games quickly with Tinker for Robot: you can do it if you couple STitan with Sphinx, but I'm sure Sphinx alone will castrate denial plan at his maximum.

I think there was once where I got Obeyline off (using only 2 Leylines it was difficult to hit Leyline turn 0, and then hard to cast Leyline+Helm by themselves). The lack of win cons becomes especially salient vs. Oath where you need to board out Titan, Shaman and probably a Sower. Sower gets tricky because he comes back in game 3 - I use Sad Sac in the board so Oath goes up to 3 guys + Tezz, making Sower really good again.

I read PChaping experimental list with 2Leyline and 1Helm maindecked as winning condition since game 1.
I have to recognize to him ( and the ones who mumbled around this fresh combo ), I'm a bit "jealous" not having ever thought at such an elegant and efficient way of winning. IMHO, maindecking it would be as extreme as surprising against unprepared opponents.

Anyway, the deck is too tight to take out 5 general porpouse cards from maindeck and make room at 4leyline and 1helm. I'm playing it in side only because of this reason. In the end, I refuse reducing Leyline down to two, too. No way to frequently  have them on board quickly without the full set. cc4 is ostile against other denial decks such as fish and staks. I'm so convinced about its strength, I'm trying to fit leyline and helm almost everywhere: 90% of decks abuse of grave, at now: killing their YWill/Dredge/KrosanRec/Strips/Welders/CoW AND tutoring for Helm is far more simple and brainless than any other thedeck winning processes.



@Smmemen, P.Chapin

I feel a bit "nude" against Combo decks such as TPS, ANT o TES. They can board discard effect to free their path to victory: it will nullify MindbreakTrapping them
The best thing your proposed side can do to improve this ( bad ) matchup is to board in Obeyline and pull out a quick win. Sometimes games are slow enough to pull out a couple of good outplaying moves: Titan for lands, Shaman for Moxen, Wall of Counterspells. In any other game situations we are at their mercè, because their aggressive discards and quick tutors are faster than our Drains/SlowInteractiveSpells.


MM


PS.
This is my actual test list.

(4) Winners
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Sundering Titan
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Cunning Wish

(9) Counterspells
4 Force Of Will
4 Mana Drain
1 Misdirection

(7) Toolbox
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Mind Twist
1 Regrowth
1 Fire / Ice
1 Balance
1 Rebuild

(8) Drawers
1 Thirst For Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact Or Fiction
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Timetwister
1 Brainstorm
1 Time Walk
1 Ponder

(5) Tutors
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Tinker

(27)
4 Wasteland
4 City Of Brass
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Library Of Alexandria
1 Island
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mana Crypt
1 Black Lotus
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Jet

(15) Sideboard
4 Leyline Of The Void
1 Helm Of Obedience
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Krosan Grip
1 Brainfreeze
1 Darkblast
1 Pyroblast
1 Fire/Ice

[Petro_Nor]

I think that in your list you lack the stirpmine. And timetwsiter is another card that I'm not sure of including in this building, since one of your strategies is to reduce the table resources of your oponent, and refilling his hands is not a good way to go, is only for a desperate moments, and I rather prefer to reinforce your strategy than doin it, ok you can win with regrowth/fire-ice/time walk/timetwister.