[FREE Article] The Return of The Deck!

[Tiki Walker]

I think Patrick was comfortable with 3 Forces, but only in the occasion that you ran Misdirection, and only in particular matchups.  The Misdirection served many of the functions that Force provides, but a few that Force doesn't. 

To that I would add that if you run Spell Pierce, the pressure to include all four Force lessens.   

Thank you for the clarification, Mr. Stephen M.

It is also interesting to know your insight towards the correlation between Spell Pierce and the total number of Forces needed in the deck. Does this stand alone or is it also affected by the number of Shamans used and the presence of Land-D recursion? Or is it more affected by the number of specific answers included in the deck?
 

Would you kindly elaborate a bit on what kind of match-ups might the 3 Force and 1 Misdirection be applicable? Oath, perhaps?

Thank you.

[DuKeLiO]

Sure, Oath no. You have to stop Oath of Druids from resolve and Misdirection doesn't do it.
I use to play with a Mindbreak Trap instead of Misdirection. It is better against Stax and combo, and only worse than MisD against Control and only in the firsts turn of the game.

[Erayo5989]

I have a couple of questions here for smmenen and other players who have been playing "The Deck" at recent tournaments. First, I would like to say that I really enjoy playing this deck and this is the type of control deck I've been wanting to play since I started playing Vintage over the summer. These past couple of months I have played 2 tournaments, N.Y.S.E. V with my first tournament record being 1-6-1 and N.Y.S.E. VI finishing the day with a record of 2-4-0.

In the current meta, Dredge had swarmed the last tournament but I never got the chance to play against it. I don't know specifically yet the breakdown of the meta due to the tournament report not being posted yet but, the decks I faced were 1 Tezzeret, 2 Oath, 1 Workshop Aggro, 1 Dark Times, and 1 Mono Black Aggro. I beat the 2 Oath decks as I have playtested against that archetype more than any other in Vintage. The following is the deck list I sleeved up for the tournament:

"The Deck"

Lands:
3 City of Brass
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Fetch Lands
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Island

Artifacts:
1 Black Lotus
5 Moxen
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Crucible of Worlds

Creatures:
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Sower of Temptation

Instants:
1 Ancestral Recall
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Brainstorm
1 Cunning Wish
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
1 Gifts Ungiven
4 Mana Drain
1 Misdirection
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

Sorceries:
1 Balance
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mind Twist
1 Ponder
1 Regrowth
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Enchantments:
1 Pernicious Deed

I've already decided on some definite changes like playing the playset of City of Brass instead of 3. I also intend on cutting out Empty the Warrens. It worked well and gave me 2 wins but against certain matchups, storming to get 20+ 1/1 goblins wasn't as powerful, especially in a particular round against Dark Times where Leyline was on the field turn 0 and I drew the first 2 turns Yawgmoth's Will and Regrowth (that really sucked). Instead of EtW, I was thinking of including Brainfreeze in the SB to wish for as an alternate win condition with Yawgmoth's Will and Cunning Wish.

1) If I'm going to have that alternate win condition set up, should I keep Tolarian Academy in this list or drop it for Library of Alexandria?

2) Without further delay, the questions I need answered the most are how to deal with decks such as Dark Times? What do you bring to gain control over that match-up or rather what is the strategy when facing that matcu-up? The discard and mana denial is painful and since they play mainly basic lands, the mana denial plan "The Deck" packs is utterly useless against them. This deck is becoming very popular in this meta which is why I am so concerned about it. So what's the strategy?

Also, a Workshop Aggro deck won the latest N.Y.S.E. tournament featuring a full compliment of Lodestone Golem and other tricks to make spells cost more. This makes me believe that I need to come more prepared for Workshop Aggro. My current SB is this:

4 Leyline of the Void
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Extripate
1 Krosan Grip
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Greater Gargadon (which proved useless and will be leaving the SB)
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Rebuild
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Darkblast

3) So my final question is, in a meta that has top decks (Tezzeret, Dredge, Oath) and rising star decks (Dark Times & Workshop Aggro) with a side of Fish decks, how do you prepare for such a meta?

Thank you for taking the time to read through this and I hope to hear some suggestions on what to do soon.

[the boogie man]

With your all that mana disruption, spell pierce looks awesome. I would cut a drain and the misdirection for pierces, and maybe run a fire/ice main in place of the warrens. 5 strips and 4 drains seem to clash a little. and perhaps hurkyls in the side over rebuild. you never know, that mana could make the difference.

[swawagon]

If Dark Times is your problem, Repeal is fundamentally a 3 for 1, for against their 20/20 Token.

[Tiki Walker]

1) If I'm going to have that alternate win condition set up, should I keep Tolarian Academy in this list or drop it for Library of Alexandria?

Perhaps you might want to do away with that Tolarian Academy, that is one land that ever since from the very beginning never conforms with the card selection criteria and gameplay strategy for The Deck. It does not do anything by itself, and most of the time one does not want (and cannot keep in play for long) a bunch of moxes out due to possible enemy Shamans.

Perhaps it is much better to include and add more mana sources in the form of land(s) that actually can do something on its own, preferably producing on color mana; since the build has only a total of 26 mana sources 4 of them virtual, 8 out of the remaining 22 are artifact mana that are prone to Null Rod strategy, and 5 out of the remaining 14 are utility lands that produce colorless mana means that this particular build is a bit less stable when facing mana disruption strategy. Maybe playing 1 less wasteland for a colored mana land will help.

[Erayo5989]

Thanks to everyone who has responded to my post thus far. I really like the idea of Repeal to play against Dark Times but their heavy discard disruption makes it a harder deck to compete with. Has anyone else had problems against Dark Times in their meta or is it just me?

I also intend on dropping Tolarian and 1 Wasteland for a 2nd Volcanic Island and Library. I'm considering Sundering Titan at the next tournament over Inkwell and seeing how it works out. And I would have Fire/Ice in my list if I could find one.

2 other matchups that I know will be big for my meta at the next tournament are Dredge and Workshop aggro. Workshop decks are my worst matchup and I'm unsure of how to strategize against them. What is the best strategy to have when playing against Workshp decks? And is Obeyline enough against Dredge or do I need more?

[honestabe]

Thanks to everyone who has responded to my post thus far. I really like the idea of Repeal to play against Dark Times but their heavy discard disruption makes it a harder deck to compete with. Has anyone else had problems against Dark Times in their meta or is it just me?

I also intend on dropping Tolarian and 1 Wasteland for a 2nd Volcanic Island and Library. I'm considering Sundering Titan at the next tournament over Inkwell and seeing how it works out. And I would have Fire/Ice in my list if I could find one.

2 other matchups that I know will be big for my meta at the next tournament are Dredge and Workshop aggro. Workshop decks are my worst matchup and I'm unsure of how to strategize against them. What is the best strategy to have when playing against Workshp decks? And is Obeyline enough against Dredge or do I need more?

Aether spellbomb

[Erayo5989]

What would Aether Spellbomb be good for?

Someone running the deck is running Thada Adel Acquisitor in the MD. Any thoughts on this?

Also I'm thinking of including maybe 1 rack and ruin to fight off workshop aggro.

Any other suggestions on strategy against dark times and for that matter rogue decks?

[honestabe]

What would Aether Spellbomb be good for?

An unduressable way to deal with Dark Times

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

What would Aether Spellbomb be good for?

An unduressable way to deal with Dark Times

Target opponent reveals his or her hand. You choose a noncreature, nonland card from it. That player discards that card.

[honestabe]

What would Aether Spellbomb be good for?

An unduressable way to deal with Dark Times

Target opponent reveals his or her hand. You choose a noncreature, nonland card from it. That player discards that card.

The exception, being your first turn

[Tha Gunslinga]

An unduressable way to deal with Dark Times

Did someone call for a Maze of Ith?

[P]

An unduressable way to deal with Dark Times

Did someone call for a Maze of Ith?

Or a Karakas!

Sower is pretty golden in the Dark Times matchup, either steal their draw engine or their twenty twenty guy.

Personally I've been trying out Jace2 in the Sower slot, not quite sure how I like it yet. He seems to do everything Sower does but better in theory, but I've grown attached to my little fairy after she stole me countless game winning bobs/titans and even sometimes, narcomoebas.

[Erayo5989]

Jace, the Mindsculptor is interesting but I agree with you on Sower. I don't see Jace being necessary in this deck.

Someone in my meta is trying out Thada Adel Acquisitor in their build and they say they like it especially when facing Tezzeret and Workshop decks. But I'm not sure if Thada as a 1 of in the decklist is a good idea or not. Any thoughts?

I've also considered testing "The Deck" using 2 Pernicious Deed rather than 1. Pernicious Deed has always allowed me to regain control of the match up if I ever lose control or is just a threat that most decks have to bait before they can go off and attempt to win the game. With my meta, it might not be such a bad idea. Has anyone else here tested their deck with 2 Pernicious Deed or thought of using 2 Pernicious Deed?

[scifiantihero]

In regards to two deeds:  I think the idea behind this deck is that if that's right for your meta, that's what you play!  If in testing against the decks you expect to face, the extra deed improves your matchups, then definitely go for it!  (not that this isn't true for any deck, but it seems that The Deck is very sensitive to fine tuning.)

[DuKeLiO]

I don't like the second Pernicious Deed. It is not too useful in some matches, and  it is not too good against Workshop Aggro, beacuse a sorcery-speed 3cc is too slow against Spheres, Null Rods and Tangle Wires. The case is almost the same with Rack and Ruin. I prefer Ancient Grudge every day. You can destroy two artifacts for the same 3 manas, but the first cost 1 less against Spheres that is absolutely crucial.
Nor Jace or Sower are too good against Dark Times, beacuse if your opponent is not stupid, he can sacrifice Hexmage EOT and you can't use nothing against it at sorcery speed.
Now I am playing one Swords to Plowshares maindek and another two on sideboard to fight this creature based metagame. When they aren't spected you can use it against Iona. It is also very cheap against Lodestone Golem and Fish.
Using Karakas is awful, beacuse it will colorscrew you too many times.

[Erayo5989]

Thanks for your input. I had a feeling that the 2 Deed may not be a good idea. And as far as Swords go, that's not a bad idea but do you think it's a better option than Path to Exile or is it just due to the meta your playing in?

An update in my meta is that Dredge and Workshop Aggro are currently the most played decks. With this information, I think it would be wise of me to include 2-3 Ravenous Traps in side board to go along with the 4 Leylines to battle Dredge. In regards to Workshop, I will keep the 2 Ancient Grudge main and plan on playing 1 Hurkyl's Recall and 1 Rebuild MD with 1 Hurkyl's in the SB.

Another thought that occured is if Workshop and Dredge are going to be the most played in my meta, should I rethink my tinker target being Sundering Titan? If so, I was thinking of possibly going back to Inkwell and having Sphinx in the SB. Sundering Titan won't be much use against Bazaars and Workshops so it would make sense if I'm not mistaken.

Any other suggestions on facing a meta with Dredge and Workshop?

[Killane]

Thanks for your input. I had a feeling that the 2 Deed may not be a good idea. And as far as Swords go, that's not a bad idea but do you think it's a better option than Path to Exile or is it just due to the meta your playing in?

An update in my meta is that Dredge and Workshop Aggro are currently the most played decks. With this information, I think it would be wise of me to include 2-3 Ravenous Traps in side board to go along with the 4 Leylines to battle Dredge. In regards to Workshop, I will keep the 2 Ancient Grudge main and plan on playing 1 Hurkyl's Recall and 1 Rebuild MD with 1 Hurkyl's in the SB.

Another thought that occured is if Workshop and Dredge are going to be the most played in my meta, should I rethink my tinker target being Sundering Titan? If so, I was thinking of possibly going back to Inkwell and having Sphinx in the SB. Sundering Titan won't be much use against Bazaars and Workshops so it would make sense if I'm not mistaken.

Any other suggestions on facing a meta with Dredge and Workshop?

Inkwell can be very Meh vs Shops if they have robots of thier own like Titan or the fairly common Karn since it can just be blocked all day long. Sphinx is better, DSC with Needle on welder is nice as well. I never wat the robot plan vs Dredge (but then I'm a TPS pilot, not a Keeper pilot), so I have absolutely nothing intelligent to say about what robot is best there, except to say that I'm quite sure you're right than Titan is not (Sphinx might be nice since it's immune to Nature's Claim which I hear is the nuts in Dredge right now).

[DuKeLiO]

I use to play with two robots. I play Sundering Titan and Sphinx of the Steel Wind.

Rebuild is slow, I think you can go with Shaman and two ancients maindeck, without Hurkyl's or Rebuild. Keeper don't want bounce nothing, Keeper want to destroy it.
In sideboard you can play a third Ancient Grudge, along with a pair of Nature's Claim and some Swords.

My actual build:

4 Force of Will
3 Mana Drain
3 Spell Pierce
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ponder
1 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Tinker
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Sower of Temptation
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Balance
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Regrowth
1 Fire/Ice
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Sundering Titan
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
5 Mox
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 City of Brass
4 Fetchland
1 Tundra
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

SB:
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Nature's Claim
1 Ancient Grudge
2 REB/Pyro
1 Trinisphere
2 Old Man of the Sea (Sower are slow against Fish and aLotOfSpheres.dec)
1 Yixlid Jailer
1 Tormods Crypt
1 Extirpate
2 Ravenous Trap

Simply cut the 61 card in the maindeck as you like (I'm thinking what to cut for the moment...). Also I'm Thinking on swaping the number of U Seas and Tropical Islands beacuse actually my wasteland.dec hate relies on green with the Nature's Claims.

[Erayo5989]

Your build seems pretty good. What decks are in your meta?

Also, how has 3 Spell Pierce/3 Mana Drain been working out for you? Because I may end up trying to incorporate that into my list.

I used to run Balance in my deck but it seemed to hurt me more than it would hurt my opponent. But I may test it out again and see if maybe I can pull it off at the right timing.

I see you've decided to cut out Cunning Wish from your list. I've thought about doing that as well. However, I also use Cunning Wish to grab Brain Freeze and storm out but that's not really doing too well so maybe I should cut it from my list.

And in your SB, I see that you don't run the Obeyline combo. Any particular reason as to why?

[DuKeLiO]

My meta is a very balanced one, with some fish, some AggroMUD, Oath and Drain decks run by good players, and sometimes some Ichorid. I wait for very little combo for my next tourney, so I cut the two Mindbreak trap that I played in the sideboard before.

The counterspells split has worked fine. With the mana denial role of the deck Spell Pierce is pretty good, but you need some hard counters in the lategame to force the opponent to tap out and fall in the pierce range. Also is not good to be so reliant in the 1cc for the counter ability beacuse of Chalice.

I exchange the Balance for the mass bounce spell to have the ability of deal with any critter and any number of them. Also fish has become very popular in Spain and Balance is so good destroying creature hordes. And it is a very flexible card. You can use it like a Mind Twist in your first turn with a some moxen start or recover after your opponent resolve a draw spell.

I cut Cunning Wish when I needed room for more countermagic and never look back.

And finally I don't play Obeyline combo beacuse I don't like Leyline of the Void like Graveyard hate. Here in Spain 90% of MWS.deck are MUD, and a lot of them don't play Crucible and play Null Rod and siding in Obeyline against them is pretty poor. Also Oath is not very popular and I only will side it against Ichrorid, and I think a 5 card mix is better to beat them.

[Mith]

I played this deck at DHG's tourney last weekend. I used Steve's list, with some minor modifications to the board...here's what I found.

1. The list destroy's Confidant Tez...but suffers a painful death to Remora Tez....to be expected, I suppose.

2. Crucible saved my ass more times than I can remember

3. Titan as the only real win condition is problematic. There were many games where I had titan in hand, no ready access to BS, and lost. There needs to be at least two ways to win. Perhaps 2 leyline/helm maindeck is the answer.

4. 4 drains, 4 FOW, and 1 MisD are fine as a counter package...but spell pierce is a beating. I often needed drain mana to do things early on, but it would be nice to have a 1cc counterspell.

I won't be playing this again...it's just not consistent enough to overcome a good Tez player on a regular basis. It does eat Fish for lunch, and has a decent matchup vs. Shops and Oath...but Tez is everywhere.

[zeus-online]

I played this deck at DHG's tourney last weekend. I used Steve's list, with some minor modifications to the board...here's what I found.

1. The list destroy's Confidant Tez...but suffers a painful death to Remora Tez....to be expected, I suppose.

2. Crucible saved my ass more times than I can remember

3. Titan as the only real win condition is problematic. There were many games where I had titan in hand, no ready access to BS, and lost. There needs to be at least two ways to win. Perhaps 2 leyline/helm maindeck is the answer.

4. 4 drains, 4 FOW, and 1 MisD are fine as a counter package...but spell pierce is a beating. I often needed drain mana to do things early on, but it would be nice to have a 1cc counterspell.

I won't be playing this again...it's just not consistent enough to overcome a good Tez player on a regular basis. It does eat Fish for lunch, and has a decent matchup vs. Shops and Oath...but Tez is everywhere.

So....point 1 is not taking into consideration? You're not playing the deck because of Tez eventhough you say that i destroys it? So i'm guessing that you've run into alot of remora's? otherwise it makes no sence.

[honestabe]

I played this deck at DHG's tourney last weekend. I used Steve's list, with some minor modifications to the board...here's what I found.

1. The list destroy's Confidant Tez...but suffers a painful death to Remora Tez....to be expected, I suppose.

2. Crucible saved my ass more times than I can remember

3. Titan as the only real win condition is problematic. There were many games where I had titan in hand, no ready access to BS, and lost. There needs to be at least two ways to win. Perhaps 2 leyline/helm maindeck is the answer.

4. 4 drains, 4 FOW, and 1 MisD are fine as a counter package...but spell pierce is a beating. I often needed drain mana to do things early on, but it would be nice to have a 1cc counterspell.

I won't be playing this again...it's just not consistent enough to overcome a good Tez player on a regular basis. It does eat Fish for lunch, and has a decent matchup vs. Shops and Oath...but Tez is everywhere.

So....point 1 is not taking into consideration? You're not playing the deck because of Tez eventhough you say that i destroys it? So i'm guessing that you've run into alot of remora's? otherwise it makes no sence.

I played in that very same tournament, and here in New England, most Tezz decks run 3-4 main, or at least 2-3 in the board

[DuKeLiO]

The best thing about The Deck is than it can be built to be better against any other matchup beacuse it uses all five colors. If in your meta there are many Tezz decks you can play a little more counterspells for winning the counter wars and some Ancient Grudges maindeck.