Painter Deck - Questions

[bosoxdave]

Hey all, new to the forum!

I have been reading it for a few days though. 


I wanted to pose a few questions to you about the classic Painter/Stone vintage deck.  Here is what I am debating for my deck:

Mana/Production - 24

2 Misty Rainforest
2 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Watery Grave
3 Steam Vents
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring

Creatures - 6

3 Painter's Servant
2 Trinket Mage
1 Inkwell Leviathan

Searches - 13

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ponder
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tinker

Control - 17

1 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
2 Grindstone
2 Mana Drain
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Duress
1 Extirpate
1 Silence

Sideboard - 15

2 Ancient Grudge
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Ingot Chewer
1 Leyline of the Void
1 Pithing Needle
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Breeding Pool 
2 Shattering Spree
1 Library of Leng



So I understand that a win with this deck in a vintage game is about control first and the combo second as it tends to be slower then several other decks.

Question 1:
A.
Is it a problem to have the Dissension/Guildpact dual lands over the originals, I understand about the 2 life issue, but will that make or break me in this format?
B.
I think that the new Zendikar Fetches are just as reasonable as the Onslaught Fetches in the fact that all of my lands (Except the Academy) are Islands.  Do you disagree?

Question 2:
A.
This is meant to be a mainly Blue/Red deck but since I am splashing black for the Will, I believe that it would be prudent to put a little bit of black control in too.  Mainly 1 Duress and 1 Extirpate.  What are your thoughts on this?
B.
Again mainly Blue/Red but what about a Hallowed Fountain and a Silence or Orim's Chant to go along?  More control = more success so I believe...

Question 3:
Do I need to sideboard the Goyf's and appropriate lands if I mainboard the Tinker and the Inkwell?  Would my sideboard be better off if it was adapted to other issues?

I also welcome any other feedback that you may have to offer.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

Dave

[honestabe]

- All the Ravnica Lands
+ Duals

- Silence
- Extirpate
+ 2 Mana Drain

Cut White, it's not needed

- You can use the new or old fetches, it doesn't make a different, unless you're running a lot of basics
- Everytime you put a ravnica land into play untapped, it makes tendrils cost 1 less storm to kill you.  A lot of times people joke that "Life doesn't matter in vintage", but in actuality, your life total is rather important.  Also, the loss of life can sometimes lead you into making sub-par plays.  You're better of with the real thing.  (Its a rather good investment also)
- The black splash is definitly needed, mainly for Yawg's Will, but extirpate is really weak in the maindeck.  It's only good in the sideboard against Oath and Storm.  Duress is nice, but not neccisary.  (its a personal chioce).  I like it, but you'd probably want want at least 3 in the deck to make it worth while.
-You really don't need goyf in the board.  Also, if you're not maindecking Green, I wouldn't suggest Anceint Grudge. Here's what I would suggest for your board

3 Duress (Oath, Control, Storm)
2 Tormod's Crypt (Leyline isn't really needed, as you have trinket mage to dig up the artifacts)
1 Relic of Progenitus  ^^^
2 Rack and Ruin (A good place to sink drian mana into)
2 Ingot Chewer
1 Hurkyls Recall  (By your board, it seems like you have a lot of artifact decks in your meta.  Normally, this much hate isn't needed)
2 Pithing Needle (Time Vault/Ichorid/Pretty Much anything)
2 Pyroclasm (Fish/Ichorid Tokens/Tezz if they're running Confidants)

^^If you're more worried about aboout Fish than Ichorid, then you can switch pyroclasms to Sower of Temptations.  Also, if there's a lot of creatures with a 1 Butt in your meta, you should also try and throw a darkblast in there

You might even want to consider throwing time vault/voltaic key, and MAYBE even tezz, just because tezz is an insta-win in a turn if not dealt with.

Good Luck

edit: you can probably cut Lotus petal for Mana Vault, or another Red Elemental Blast if you want to, but then again if there's a lot of Stax in your mate, maybe it's not the best idea

[bosoxdave]

- All the Ravnica Lands
+ Duals

- Silence
- Extirpate
+ 2 Mana Drain

Cut White, it's not needed

- You can use the new or old fetches, it doesn't make a different, unless you're running a lot of basics
- Everytime you put a ravnica land into play untapped, it makes tendrils cost 1 less storm to kill you.  A lot of times people joke that "Life doesn't matter in vintage", but in actuality, your life total is rather important.  Also, the loss of life can sometimes lead you into making sub-par plays.  You're better of with the real thing.  (Its a rather good investment also)
- The black splash is definitly needed, mainly for Yawg's Will, but extirpate is really weak in the maindeck.  It's only good in the sideboard against Oath and Storm.  Duress is nice, but not neccisary.  (its a personal chioce).  I like it, but you'd probably want want at least 3 in the deck to make it worth while.
-You really don't need goyf in the board.  Also, if you're not maindecking Green, I wouldn't suggest Anceint Grudge. Here's what I would suggest for your board

3 Duress (Oath, Control, Storm)
2 Tormod's Crypt (Leyline isn't really needed, as you have trinket mage to dig up the artifacts)
1 Relic of Progenitus  ^^^
2 Rack and Ruin (A good place to sink drian mana into)
2 Ingot Chewer
1 Hurkyls Recall  (By your board, it seems like you have a lot of artifact decks in your meta.  Normally, this much hate isn't needed)
2 Pithing Needle (Time Vault/Ichorid/Pretty Much anything)
2 Pyroclasm (Fish)


You might even want to consider throwing time vault/voltaic key, and MAYBE even tezz, just because tezz is an insta-win in a turn if not dealt with.

Good Luck

edit: you can probably cut Lotus petal for Mana Vault, or another Red Elemental Blast if you want to, but then again if there's a lot of Stax in your mate, maybe it's not the best idea

Thanks for the input.  I will go the dual land route and cut the white.  I will remove hallowed fountain for another basic island?  If I am cutting extirpate and silence/orim's would you then go with 3 duress'?  Or would you go another route entirely?  I like the idea of Tezz.  Is there any reason that I don't main deck him? 

[honestabe]

- All the Ravnica Lands
+ Duals

- Silence
- Extirpate
+ 2 Mana Drain

Cut White, it's not needed

- You can use the new or old fetches, it doesn't make a different, unless you're running a lot of basics
- Everytime you put a ravnica land into play untapped, it makes tendrils cost 1 less storm to kill you.  A lot of times people joke that "Life doesn't matter in vintage", but in actuality, your life total is rather important.  Also, the loss of life can sometimes lead you into making sub-par plays.  You're better of with the real thing.  (Its a rather good investment also)
- The black splash is definitly needed, mainly for Yawg's Will, but extirpate is really weak in the maindeck.  It's only good in the sideboard against Oath and Storm.  Duress is nice, but not neccisary.  (its a personal chioce).  I like it, but you'd probably want want at least 3 in the deck to make it worth while.
-You really don't need goyf in the board.  Also, if you're not maindecking Green, I wouldn't suggest Anceint Grudge. Here's what I would suggest for your board

3 Duress (Oath, Control, Storm)
2 Tormod's Crypt (Leyline isn't really needed, as you have trinket mage to dig up the artifacts)
1 Relic of Progenitus  ^^^
2 Rack and Ruin (A good place to sink drian mana into)
2 Ingot Chewer
1 Hurkyls Recall  (By your board, it seems like you have a lot of artifact decks in your meta.  Normally, this much hate isn't needed)
2 Pithing Needle (Time Vault/Ichorid/Pretty Much anything)
2 Pyroclasm (Fish)


You might even want to consider throwing time vault/voltaic key, and MAYBE even tezz, just because tezz is an insta-win in a turn if not dealt with.

Good Luck

edit: you can probably cut Lotus petal for Mana Vault, or another Red Elemental Blast if you want to, but then again if there's a lot of Stax in your mate, maybe it's not the best idea

Thanks for the input.  I will go the dual land route and cut the white.  I will remove hallowed fountain for another basic island?  If I am cutting extirpate and silence/orim's would you then go with 3 duress'?  Or would you go another route entirely?  I like the idea of Tezz.  Is there any reason that I don't main deck him? 

Well, I suggested to replace them with drains, but if you want, you could add time vault and voltaic key.  Then, if you wanted tezz, I'd cut the lotus petal for it.  Your deck doesn't need to be that quick.  tezz is even extra good in this deck, because he can snag painter or grindstone too.   

[scifiantihero]

I don't see Vampiric tutor on your list.  It seems like it would be a good inclusion, since it's probably better than mystical in this case.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

- All the Ravnica Lands
+ Duals

- Silence
- Extirpate
+ 2 Mana Drain

Cut White, it's not needed

- You can use the new or old fetches, it doesn't make a different, unless you're running a lot of basics
- Everytime you put a ravnica land into play untapped, it makes tendrils cost 1 less storm to kill you.  A lot of times people joke that "Life doesn't matter in vintage", but in actuality, your life total is rather important.  Also, the loss of life can sometimes lead you into making sub-par plays.  You're better of with the real thing.  (Its a rather good investment also)
- The black splash is definitly needed, mainly for Yawg's Will, but extirpate is really weak in the maindeck.  It's only good in the sideboard against Oath and Storm.  Duress is nice, but not neccisary.  (its a personal chioce).  I like it, but you'd probably want want at least 3 in the deck to make it worth while.
-You really don't need goyf in the board.  Also, if you're not maindecking Green, I wouldn't suggest Anceint Grudge. Here's what I would suggest for your board

3 Duress (Oath, Control, Storm)
2 Tormod's Crypt (Leyline isn't really needed, as you have trinket mage to dig up the artifacts)
1 Relic of Progenitus  ^^^
2 Rack and Ruin (A good place to sink drian mana into)
2 Ingot Chewer
1 Hurkyls Recall  (By your board, it seems like you have a lot of artifact decks in your meta.  Normally, this much hate isn't needed)
2 Pithing Needle (Time Vault/Ichorid/Pretty Much anything)
2 Pyroclasm (Fish)


You might even want to consider throwing time vault/voltaic key, and MAYBE even tezz, just because tezz is an insta-win in a turn if not dealt with.

Good Luck

edit: you can probably cut Lotus petal for Mana Vault, or another Red Elemental Blast if you want to, but then again if there's a lot of Stax in your mate, maybe it's not the best idea

Thanks for the input.  I will go the dual land route and cut the white.  I will remove hallowed fountain for another basic island?  If I am cutting extirpate and silence/orim's would you then go with 3 duress'?  Or would you go another route entirely?  I like the idea of Tezz.  Is there any reason that I don't main deck him?  

Even tezzeret decks side out their tezz most of the time. I wouldn't bother, especially since the painter combo doesn't synergize nearly as well as the timevault one.

[Cyberpunker]

Hey, I have a few inputs that I think can help. Take it with a grain of salt though because I haven't been playing Painter lately. But based on my experience last year with the deck:

Painters and Grindstones should both be 4 ofs. The advantage of running Painters and Grindstones over Key/Vault is that you get to run more than one copy of every combo piece.

Another is that I think Painter decks should be Mono Red to have the most chances of casting a Red Elemental Blast and not risking mana or color screw. Also red opens up choices like Magus of the Moon and Blood Moon. And you can run Pithing Needle if you wish, although I would say that in Vintage Pithing Needle is not as good as in Legacy.

Run some Ancient tombs and Gorilla Shamans and Goblin Welders. You can even run Lightning Bolts and Price of Progress! (Or Fireblast, Chain Lightning, whichever you prefer really)

My 2 cents.

[PETER FLUGZEUG]

I wouldn't say that's a grain of salt, more likely a big spoonfull...
Can you provide us with a monored list that has won anything in vintage?
I don't think this approach is viable.
I'd stay conservative, run an UB build (feel free to splash red) that uses painter as the "Bauerncombo" (i.e. the farmer's vault key) (as a german player, who has been extremely successful with an UB version the whole year, named it) and run 3-2 or 4-2 or 4-3 if you want. do not run 4-4.

[Cyberpunker]

I confess that I do not have a list or too many results to back up my statement. I firmly believe it though because based on past testing with the U/B version and a Mono R version, the Mono R version was stronger. The UBR version is a suboptimal Tezzeret deck. I believe that if you were to play a U/B version, you will be better off playing Tezzeret. But if you want to use Painter's Servant, than a Mono R version with a very high chance of topdecking your win condition should be the route you go.

Pros of playing Painter over Key:
4 of Grindstone and 4 of Painter available
Red Elemental Blasts are very good if Painter is online.
Very high chance of TopDeckWinning
Better way of removing Null Rod/Pithing Needle with REB instead of having to run maindeck bounce.
Great mana consistency and ability to destroy artifacts and mana screw people.
Great against blue based decks.

Cons of playing Painter over Key:
3 mana to activate Grindstone
Gaea's Blessing
Painter can be bounced, edicted, bolted, and swords at the last minute.
No synergy with Tezzert except as a tutor target.
Less broken spells and plays (very important)
REB useless unless painter is resolved against many matchups

NOTE:

I am going to pilot this deck to a tournament in January and I will post a report if I do well.

[bosoxdave]

I am very interested to see how it plays, the monored that is, please do let us know how it does.

My concern with monored is that you are relying, nearly 100%, on getting Painter out immediately, and thus have relatively few answers for other decks until you do so.  Also you have almost no search to get it if you don't get Painter immediately unless I am mistaken. 

[bosoxdave]

Another question is this:

Is it worth running a single sideboard Inkwell Leviathan if I decided to make Sphinx of the Steel Wind my main tinker target? 

[honestabe]

Another question is this:

Is it worth running a single sideboard Inkwell Leviathan if I decided to make Sphinx of the Steel Wind my main tinker target? 

I'd advise against it.


Also, in my oppinion, there are 2 archtypes of painter decks.  A) the drain deck (what you have), and B) the B/R disruptive deck that runs strip effects, mana denial, and needs lots of combo pieces, due to lack of card draw.  If I had to choose one, I'd take the drain deck.  It's experieced lots of success in the past.

[bosoxdave]

Thanks again for the help.  You have been very insightful and have really helped me focus this down.

[Shock Wave]

Painters and Grindstones should both be 4 ofs. The advantage of running Painters and Grindstones over Key/Vault is that you get to run more than one copy of every combo piece.

In my experiences (1 year playing Painter, about 10 tournaments with T8 finishes, several hundred games in testing), playing a 4/4 configuration is very wrong. In fact, I would not run more than 1 Grindstone in the deck. Grindstone and Painter by themselves are both underwhelming, but Grindstone is pretty much a dead draw. I am never happy to see it in my first hand.

The objective of a well balanced Painter deck is NOT to combo off as quickly as possible, or to put itself in a position where it needs to "topdeck" the win. It is a control deck with a combo finish, which has significant advantages and disadvantages when compared to Tezzeret. They are different decks with different strengths and weaknesses, so to say the Painter combo is strictly inferior to Vault/Key decks is incorrect.

If you pay a mono red list that just tries to "combo" as quickly as possible, why not just play a dedicated combo deck like ANT, TPS or GWSx or something that is actually good? I can't imagine that a mono red Painter deck in Vintage can win with the consistency of the proven combo archetypes. It seems like you would be drawing your 7 and being at the mercy of whatever you draw, with very limited ways to protect yourself and manipulate your library.

[credmond]

The B/R Sui version of this deck is actually pretty solid. Here's a sample list that I took to a split finals.

BR Suicide Painter
Volcanic Island  1  
Strip Mine   1  
Bloodstained Mire  4  
Badlands   4  
Polluted Delta  1  
Wasteland   4  
Swamp   2  
Mountain    2  
Pyroblast   4  
Red Elemental Blast   2  
Thoughtseize    3  
Duress    3  
Demonic Tutor   1  
Demonic Consultation   1  
Grindstone   2  
Extirpate   2  
Ancestral Recall    1  
Mox Jet   1  
Mox Sapphire   1  
Mox Ruby   1  
Night's Whisper   3  
Black Lotus      1  
Diabolic Edict  2
Shattering Spree   1  
Painter's Servant   4  
Magus of the Moon   2  
Dark Confidant   4  
Grim Lavamancer   2  

Sideboard
Smother   3
Null Rod     3
Yixlid Jailer   2
Viashino Heretic   1
Relic of Progenitus   1
Shattering Spree   3
Diabolic Edict  2

In today's meta I would find a way to put 3-4 gargadons in the sideboard  (swapping in for the maindeck confidants of course) to be able to compete with oath which is this deck's most challenging matchup. The 6 main deck pyroblasts can really manhandle Tezzeret so if you expect a lot of Tez this deck can really shine.

[Grand Inquisitor]

The list that T8'd Champs year is pretty good:  http://www.morphling.de/printview.php?c=1109&d=6

I think one of the emerging discoveries of this metagame is the strength of Sensei's Divining Top.  I'd even find room for an additional SDT since it allows Grinstone to serve a purpose besides stopping topdeck tutors...thinning crap off the top of your library as you search for more gas with SDT.  Mystic Remora can also be very strong depending on your metagame.

I don't think I'd run Duress/Thoughtseize maindeck when you can run more REBs.

BR Suicide Painter

I don't think non-blue Painter lists are really pertinent here.  They are really different beasts.  As Shockwave mentioned, this is a control deck.

tendrils cost 1 less storm to kill you.  A lot of times people joke that "Life doesn't matter in vintage",

I don't agree with this guy.  Life usually doesn't matter.  If you're on a budget I'd worry about other pick ups like mana drain, FoW, etc instead.  He is right, though, that lands are a very strong investment for this format.

The UBR version is a suboptimal Tezzeret deck

I don't think this is strictly true.  While not good in a heavy null rod metagame, Painter gains from having maindeck red blasts which are really just awesome against control.  If you have a control/combo heavy metagame, this can be a good choice.

[Shock Wave]

While not good in a heavy null rod metagame, Painter gains from having maindeck red blasts which are really just awesome against control.  If you have a control/combo heavy metagame, this can be a good choice.

Really? I have found that one of the advantages of Painter over Tezz is that it has a much better matchup against Aggro and Null Rod decks, since a resolved Painter allows you to deal with problematic permanents.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Really? I have found that one of the advantages of Painter over Tezz is that it has a much better matchup against Aggro and Null Rod decks, since a resolved Painter allows you to deal with problematic permanents.

I guess I should add that my testing experience with Painter was before the advent of Sphinx of the Steel Wind, which can really shift that matchup (and also shows that the testing results were against older incarnations of fish).

As for using REB as an answer to null rod, I found that getting Dark Confidant to stick for Tez usually wins the game.  I agree that getting a painter to stick along with having REB, a red source and the combo (to make removing the null rod worthwhile) is a strong line of play.  It's just that Dark Confidant is a simpler plan to execute, while Painter or REB, by themselves can be underwhelming against fish (although REB can be really good too, depending on the version).

[Shock Wave]

I guess I should add that my testing experience with Painter was before the advent of Sphinx of the Steel Wind, which can really shift that matchup (and also shows that the testing results were against older incarnations of fish).

As for using REB as an answer to null rod, I found that getting Dark Confidant to stick for Tez usually wins the game.  I agree that getting a painter to stick along with having REB, a red source and the combo (to make removing the null rod worthwhile) is a strong line of play.  It's just that Dark Confidant is a simpler plan to execute, while Painter or REB, by themselves can be underwhelming against fish (although REB can be really good too, depending on the version).

I never liked Sphinx, but that's neither here nor there.

Both the Tezz and the Painter decks that I have tested run Bob, and agree I that winning the game more often revolves around getting Bob to stick. The advantage that I found with Painter is in those situations where Bob does not stick. In those scenarios, I often found Tezz under duress from a resolved Rod, or an opponent's Bob, a Goyf, or some other pesky permanent. In these scenarios, specifically the Null Rod situation, Tezz has very limited outs. However, Painter decks can pull out of these soft locks more easily because their combo piece (i.e. Painter) is both a threat and a potential solution. The Key/Vault combo that Tezz uses will provide more random wins, but has no defensive application.

[Dnine]

I ran painter a lot last year and placed in several tournaments.  I had the most luck with sticking with blue-red and resisting the temptation for adding black.  This was mainly to do to problems I had against strip mine decks such as fish and workshop.  The deck is not very mana hungry and you don't want to run a ton of mana sources.  If you run black with duress effects then you are almost always wanting to fetch a dual turn one as you need all three colors early.  Too many games were lost to mana problems that I ended up cutting black for more basics instead of increasing my mana sources.  The down side to this was turn one duress was so good against faster combo decks that I really missed it in that matchup.  You should decide based on your meta.

I also strongly suggest running all 4 painters, one grindstone with 2-3 trinket mages.  The 4 painters are there to turn on your REB's early.  You should be running at least 4-5 reb effects main, if not then why are you bothering running painter in the first place?  It's the decks biggest strength against tezz.  Only one grindstone is needed since you run trinkets that act as stones 2-4.  They also give you utility to fetch explosives, top, or needle.

I also liked 1-2 welders in the deck especially with only one grindstone main.  They were good disruption against workshop decks as well as slowing down time vault decks.  Not quite as good now with thirst restricted, but still not bad.  They also can be a draw engine with top in play.

I also would suggest sticking with the ancient grudges in the sideboard.  Against stacks it is very difficult to get to 3 mana when you need it most.  I would run a combination of grudges and shattering sprees for my artifact hate package.  I did this and it was very useful.  Sure sometimes grudge is just a shatter, but that is just fine in the beginning.  You can use it to stall long enough to find the emerald or a mage to get an emerald and go to town.  This happens enough times to warrant the grudges in my experience. 

[BruiZar]

Painters and Grindstones should both be 4 ofs. The advantage of running Painters and Grindstones over Key/Vault is that you get to run more than one copy of every combo piece.

If you pay a mono red list that just tries to "combo" as quickly as possible, why not just play a dedicated combo deck like ANT, TPS or GWSx or something that is actually good? I can't imagine that a mono red Painter deck in Vintage can win with the consistency of the proven combo archetypes. It seems like you would be drawing your 7 and being at the mercy of whatever you draw, with very limited ways to protect yourself and manipulate your library.

If someone wants to play like that, there is combo elves!

The list that T8'd Champs year is pretty good:  http://www.morphling.de/printview.php?c=1109&d=6

tendrils cost 1 less storm to kill you.  A lot of times people joke that "Life doesn't matter in vintage",

I don't agree with this guy.  Life usually doesn't matter.  If you're on a budget I'd worry about other pick ups like mana drain, FoW, etc instead.  He is right, though, that lands are a very strong investment for this format.

It certainly depends. When you run stuff like Confidant, Necropotence, Mana Crypt, Ancient Tomb, Thoughtseize and the slightly less painful City of Brass, fetch and mana vault, it can put you in a position where an otherwise slower aggro deck can kill you. If you aren't running too many of these cards, I wouldn't worry about it too much. However, it might be wise to go the Sphinx route to offset your lifeloss from ravnica duals because Sphinx is especially powerful against aggro which is going to be the archtype that you should worry the most about your life loss. Also, crack fetch end of turn and leave them tapped if you don't absolutely need the mana

Duals are rising pretty strongly in price, but I'd still go for semi power and power. Try to win something in proxy environments and downtrade for duals or sell it to buy duals, but get your vintage staples first.

[Lemnear]

I wouldn't say that's a grain of salt, more likely a big spoonfull...
Can you provide us with a monored list that has won anything in vintage?
I don't think this approach is viable.
I'd stay conservative, run an UB build (feel free to splash red) that uses painter as the "Bauerncombo" (i.e. the farmer's vault key) (as a german player, who has been extremely successful with an UB version the whole year, named it) and run 3-2 or 4-2 or 4-3 if you want. do not run 4-4.

You're talking 'bout Flo aka Bisamratte who named his UB Painter build several times the Bauerncombo. As I remember he played 3 Painter, 1 G.Stone and 2-3 Trinket Mages to find stone, explosives or sensei's divining top. Last time we played against each other 4 thrist were still legal, but he said he'll try to add Bob's instead....

I'm not sure red is a must have due to the critical blue-count. I would rather play spell snare/pierce or repeal in that slot since drain is a must-have

[beder]

Here is the painter build I am using right now. This is a totally different painter approach, with an original engine.

It relies on incredible and multiple synergies : painter and red blasts fits extremely well in the "hatching/abjure" shell.

I feel pretty comfortable with it, it has a good matchup against most of the field, except storm that is difficult and stax that is tricky.

Remark 1 : one perillous research could perhaps be removed for a hurkylls, a fire/ice, a darkblast, a misdirection or another grindstone. Still testing this.
Remark 2 : this deck does not really need UU => one mountain could perhaps be added main. Still testing this. Would help a lot against mana denial, in order to have durable access to red blast.

// Lands x15
    4 Scalding Tarn
    3 Polluted Delta
    3 Volcanic Island
    2 Underground Sea
    2 Island
    1 Tolarian Academy

// Mana Accelerators x7
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Sol Ring

// Win conditions
    4 Painter's Servant
    1 Grindstone  
    1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind

// Counters/Disruption x12
    4 Force of Will
    4 Abjure
    2 Pyroblast
    2 Red Elemental Blast

// Draw engine x8
    4 Hatching Plans
    3 Perilous Research
    1 Read the Runes

// Search & Manipulate x7
    1 Sensei's Divining Top
    1 Mystical Tutor
    1 Ponder
    1 Brainstorm
    1 Merchant Scroll
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Demonic Tutor

// Usual Suspects x4
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Time Walk
    1 Tinker
    1 Yawgmoth's Will

[Cyberpunker]

I said I would post my results with my deck and I hope this acceptable to necro this thread. I won a Mox Diamond with this deck but went only 2-2. Read on though for an explanation.

4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Pyroblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Magma Jet
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Ingot Chewer
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Ruby
1 Lotus Petal
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
9 Mountain

4 Blood Moon
4 Mogg Fanatic (should have been Ravenous Trap)
4 Shattering Spree
3 Umezawa's Jitte (useless that day)

It was a 3 player team event and my team was Dredge, Suicide Black, and me with Red Painter.

I went 2-2 beating Dredge and Selkie while losing to STAX and Dredge.

2 losses were due to Mogg Fanatic not being Ravenous Trap. And STAX I was mana screw after his first Strip Mine. Stuck on 1 Mountain with Painter/Grindstone out but he Stripped my Ancient Tomb. 2nd game, I blew some artifacts away but I ended up with a dead hand of 4 blasts but no painter. GG.

My Dredge Teamate went 2-2 also. But my Suicide Black teammate went 4-0. I won whenever my Dredge teammate lost. And so our team always had a 2-1 record against the other teams.

End result 5-0 for our team (there was 1 bye).

Credit:

I got the inspiration for this list from some report in TMD a while back. Thanks to the original creator of Red Painter.

We shared power between our decks, so I could not include a Sol Ring and Black Lotus because my teamate already took it. I would not include the other Moxen but would prefer Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors.

[keys]

Since this is the blue-based control forum, let me get this thread back on topic  Andy Probasco recently posted a Painter deck on SCG that also featured Gush.  I'd like to post the list here:

3 Painter's Servant
3 Grindstone
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Myr Battlesphere

4 Force of Will
4 Gush
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Regrowth
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will

1 Fastbond
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Flooded Strand
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Island

Sideboard:
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Yixlid Jailer
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Darksteel Colossus
3 Nevinyrral's Disk
4 Mishra's Workshop


Right off the bat I have a few changes in mind.  First, I'm not sure 3 Grindstone is optimal, and I think 1 Tezzeret, 1 Key, and 1 Vault should be in the 60.  I also have the feeling the sideboard is unpolished.  While the Workshop/Disk combo is cute/powerful, the Colossus leave me confused...

Anybody have some ideas on how to iron out the wrinkles to make the deck competitive?  I'd love some input!

Thanks  

[Phele]

I'd love to make a Painter-Gush deck going as well, but it is a difficult task.

This list seems a bit strange. If I didn't fail, it counts 27 mana sources. This seems a lot for a Gush deck. Especially Mox Pearl and Lotus Petal seem a little bit out of place. Mox Pearl for being off color and not serving Gush and Lotus Petal for not pushing forward some early threats like Confidant or Drain that can compensate the card and mana disadvantage.

In a deck with 5 red blasts I also would think about cutting one Grindstone. While Grindstone directly interacts just with three cards in the deck (Painters), Painter does it with eight (Grindstone plus blasts, Tutors and Tinker not counted). And Painter at least blocks and hits.

I could also imagine that Sphinx could be a better choice than Battlesphere in a Painter deck without Welder . Painters can protect the prot red/green Sphinx against Swords to Plowshares, Duplicant, Sower of Temptation and stuff like that.

I very much like, that this decks gives up to much filtering in form of Preordains for heavy bombs like Jace or Twister. I could see a second Jace working as well, as it is so strong in combination with Gush. Maybe a Misdirection could replace one red blast. Misdirection is not the strongest choice in some metas (even though it always has uses), but it interacts also very well with Painter and Gush. Its a good way to get use of too many lands in hand by pitching them away.

I had pretty good experiences with Emtpy the Warrens in this kind of deck as well. You play pretty much acceleration, you play Gush-Bond and one Hurkyl, so there is a way to storm. And it is very easy to create little Empties for three to five copies, which are a big threat for many decks.

I havent tested this kind of list, but I could see it missing just a little bit more action and filtering at the low mana curve. No Mystical Tutor, no Ponder and no other counters like Spell Pierce means that you very often don't do much in the first two turns. So you heavily need an early Painter to get things going.

One last thing: While testing Gush-Painter I very much liked one copy of Ancient Grudge in the main deck. Painter is not the worst choice against Shops but the matchup is still pretty tough. And Painter has the right color combination to support Grudge.

[BetaFoil86]

As the designer of the original list that you copied (Either my top 8 at world's or the list I gave to Owen for his top 8 the year before) I feel obligated to put in my two cents.

The primary focus of the deck was to be the best control deck in the format. This was accomplished by removing spells that generated card disadvantage and finding ways to gain additional advantages. With that in mind you should take note that there is no vamp tutor for two reasons. The first reason is that due to wasteland and the fact that you run 5 main deck red elemental blasts you did not want to fetch underground sea first, or even often. Secondly, even though getting the exact card you want is nice it is not necessary. Most hands would just want another REB or a land and that can be accomplished without losing the card. Mystical tutor was included because of its unique use with merchant scroll and not requiring you to get underground sea. I however usually pitched Mystical tutor to force over most cards. Tinker was also not included because trinket mage was better than tinker (at least at time time). Casting tinker and losing a mana source was a huge blow if they were able to deal with it, I just wanted to generate an incremental advantage. Also the tinker target was always the worst card in your deck. Trinket mage added mana or filtering or removal through respective targets. Remember that  grinding yourself with a top could generate you more advantage. Its original weakest match up of stax, which due to blast was not terrible game 1 but un-boarded they rolled you game 2-3, was solved to be your strongest match up by adding in 11 sideboard cards. Theses happened to overlap many of your other matches. Goyfs and ingot chewer were good against fish, you were already pre-boarded against control, storm only required you board up to 14 main deck counters. Some final note about the original deck is that lotus petal was required because you really wanted extra counters up asap. Library lost me more games that it won me because of the delayed drain and REB. Finally with this deck forcing ancestral was usually wrong, but not always wrong (although REB or draining it was great), you simply had more counters than most decks have threats.

Now on to the reasons that I have given up the idea that it is the best deck in the format. The big advantage that you had in the thirst era was that thirst almost always gave you an advantage and you should not be hesitant to pitch grindstone or painter as there are redundant ones. However with thirst gone your OK hands could not be filtered into great ones and your plus 1 card advantage was harder to come by. In this period, I used mystic remora which was great if you were in a lead, or could cast spells with it up. However now that there are significantly more creatures in the meta-game this is not an option. This alone could probably be worked around but the biggest reason for playing the deck was being so much better of a control deck but now, thanks to spell pierce, there are decks that have as many counters and the significant advantage of REB is negated slightly. If you can find that super filter card to help your hands while at the same time not tapping you out giving your opponent opportunity to not play through your 2-3 counter wall you will have a winner.

I tested Jace and it was great when it resolved but totally ass when trying to get it into play. Gush can't be used as a draw engine because it puts you too far behind. Gush makes you pick up very valuable lands that help to cast drain and REB while playing around spell pierce. It is OK late game but the early game in this deck is very key. Preordain is great early but has trouble filling the shoes of thirst. I have a love hate relationship with Dark Confident but it might be worth a try. If I were to suggest a new starting list to test it would be this.

Maindeck (60):
Spells (45):
1 Black Lotus
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Grindstone
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
3 Painter's Servant
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
1 Gifts Ungiven
3 Mana Drain
1 Merchant Scroll
3 preordain
2 Jace the mind sculptor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Ponder
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Time Walk
2 Trinket Mage
2 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast

Lands (15):
2 Flooded Strand
3 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
 

I added mana crypt back in because your win condition sped up a bit with Jace. Preordains to filter some because remora is not great anymore. I also removed 1 grindstone because of Jace as a secondary win, and I removed tormod's crypt as its original intention was to beat blessing in oath which gets played a lot less. However if you expect blessing or emrakul put in the crypt again. Sideboard is totally different but would require a solid main deck to create first. Just go over what cards you would want to remove in a match and have that many slots dedicated to it. Do not make your sideboard and decide after what you are taking out. The only thing I can say is I suspect that sideboard Tinker + Target is probably a reasonable option along with other cards vs stacks as the inclusion of steel hellkite might make the goyf plan a lot worse however it would require testing.

[bisamratte]

Why don't you all play Confidants? It's easier to cast than Thirst, Fact or Gifts and stricty better than Preordain.

I've developped a post-Thirst list, based on my BOM3 List (http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1051&highlight=2#place2).
You can find it here: http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1192&highlight=1#place1

With Jace and Spell Pierce I decided to add the third color. I first played with green and a 2/2 Claim split and 8 Counters, than I added Pierces. The Deck was good, but the Fish MU was too bad. I decided to focus on blue decks and ignore the other MUs. That's why I added red for Blasts instead of Pierces. The SB is made to beat MUD and Dredge. That's my latest list that I want to play at GM2:

1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea

3 Dark Confidant
2 Trinket Mage
3 Painter's Servant
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
2 Grindstone
1 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Demonic Tutor
3 Mana Drain
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor      
4 Force of Will

SB:
4 Yixlid Jailer
4 Ingot Chewer
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pithing Needle
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Perish
1 Slot

[TheBrassMan]

To comment specifically on the Gush list from my article:

Note that this was a list I played at and tuned for a specific, small tournament.  I made decisions in it I may not have made were I posting a stock-archetype-list for general use.  (Most notably, running specific cards for the purpose of testing them, rather than playing it safe)

Right off the bat I have a few changes in mind.  First, I'm not sure 3 Grindstone is optimal

I think I'm the only Painter-player I've met who likes 3 Grindstone.  I ran 3 in the SCG Power 9 event I won the week painter was legal, and I've never wanted less since.  I mostly value the redundancy (which is even more important in a post-brainstorm world), but I have won games on Grindstone-without-Painter (including at the event I played this deck in).

That said, as basically everyone else in the world likes to run less, I couldn't exactly judge you for wanting less as well.

and I think 1 Tezzeret, 1 Key, and 1 Vault should be in the 60. 

With less than 4/4 painter/grindstone, I dont think adding vault/key makes sense.  Drawing a Painter/Time Vault hand is extremely awkward.  Tezzeret actually kills with Painter Grindstone at the same speed as vault/key, which is kind of amusing.  You could actually run a Tezzeret I guess, though another Jace might make more sense.

I also have the feeling the sideboard is unpolished.  While the Workshop/Disk combo is cute/powerful, the Colossus leave me confused...

It is unpolished.  I was running the Workshop plan to test it, and I never got to.  I have to this date never played a game with it, and have no idea if it has any value

The Darksteel Colossi are sideboarded in for the Painter mirror match, which I had reason to expect (which was correct, there were 2 other Painter decks there, and it was a very small event.)  As a Painter player no plan horrifies me more than double Colossus - and I like horrifying my opponents, when possible.

If I didn't fail, it counts 27 mana sources. This seems a lot for a Gush deck. Especially Mox Pearl and Lotus Petal seem a little bit out of place. Mox Pearl for being off color and not serving Gush and Lotus Petal for not pushing forward some early threats like Confidant or Drain that can compensate the card and mana disadvantage.

27 does seem a bit high.  I do think though, that typical Gush decks run too few sources.  They've always run a bit too low, but this list also can't rely on cantrip-into-land hands (and without Brainstorm, I'd rather just have the lands than cantrip into them anyway).  I considered dropping Pearl, but didn't, because the colorless mana requirements in this deck are significant. 

I wouldn't even consider a manabase like some I've seen running around (there's a 19 source list in another thread here) - but you're right, 27 might be a bit high, and going down a source or two doesn't seem unreasonable.

I could also imagine that Sphinx could be a better choice than Battlesphere in a Painter deck without Welder . Painters can protect the prot red/green Sphinx against Swords to Plowshares, Duplicant, Sower of Temptation and stuff like that.

I was running Battlesphere at this event specifically to test it.  I had never played it before this tournament, and I was pleasantly surprised by the results.

I honestly hadn't considered the interaction between Sphinx and Painter naming Red, I generally don't take Sphinx seriously as a target, so I overlooked that.  I can't deny that the protection is very interesting here - though I fear it may not come up very often.  I can't imagine there are many situations where a Painter is in play and you'd want to Tinker out a Sphinx instead of a Grindstone.  I'm sure it happens, I'm just not sure it happens more than the times some other robot is better.  It makes sense though, if I pick up painter again I'll have to seriously consider it.

I could see a second Jace ... Maybe a Misdirection ... I had pretty good experiences with Emtpy the Warrens ...

I like all of these cards.  Though I would shy away from Empty I think, in a list that's pretty heavy on finishers already.  If you're set on cutting down the combo cards it obviously gets better.

One last thing: While testing Gush-Painter I very much liked one copy of Ancient Grudge in the main deck. Painter is not the worst choice against Shops but the matchup is still pretty tough. And Painter has the right color combination to support Grudge.

Assuming that the Workshop plan is not effective (and it's a longshot to be sure), Ancient Grudge is a fine card.  Though I'd want it as part of a bigger plan, I'd hate to have no relevant one-drop answers (Ingot Chewer, Annul) against a modern shop deck.

[Malhavoc]

I've toyed a bit with a painter list too, since the unrestriction of gush. I've not had much time to play with it actually, but when I did the results were quite satisfying.

The list is not too much different from what written above already, but anyway, here it is:

//MANA: 17+6=23
1  Tolarian Academy
1  Library of Alexandria
2  Island
2  Tropical Island
2  Underground Sea
3  Volcanic Island
2  Scalding Tarn
2  Misty Rainforest
2  Polluted Delta

1  Sol Ring
1  Black Lotus
1  Mox Sapphire
1  Mox Jet
1  Mox Ruby
1  Mox Emerald

//DRAW: 8
4  Gush
1  Brainstorm
1  Ancestral Recall
1  Ponder
1 [TFK] Thirst for Knowledge

//TUTOR: 4
1  Demonic Tutor
1  Vampiric Tutor
1  Merchant Scroll
1  Mystical Tutor

//CONTROL: 7
2  Mana Drain
1  Commandeer
4  Force of Will

//CONTROL/REMOVAL: 5
3  Red Elemental Blast
2  Pyroblast

//WIN: 8
4 [SM] Painter's Servant
1  Tinker
1  Grindstone
1  Darksteel Colossus
1  Empty the Warrens

//OTHER: 5
1  Regrowth
1  Yawgmoth's Will
1  Fastbond
1  Time Walk
1  Hurkyl's Recall

// Sideboard
SB: 4  Leyline of the Void
SB: 2  Ingot Chewer
SB: 2  Ancient Grudge
SB: 2  Pithing Needle
SB: 1  Sundering Titan
SB: 4  Tarmogoyf

On the mana side, I've opted to drop the off color mox and the crypt. Crypt could maybe find it way back in, but pearl probably not.

As for the tinker target, both Colossus and Sphinx make sense. They are good in different cases, so it really depends on what you fear most. But I think a Sundering Titan in the side is really good to have for the control matchup (after all you can avoid destroying your own "strange color" lands like green ones with a gush if you really need).

The single Commandeer is a trick up the sleeve. With painter you can really pitch any possible card, and it may be game resolving to commandeer a good spell. You can also tutor it with a mystical or vampiric followed by gush (and then you can also pitch the lands you bounced). It's plain you can not like it.. in that case just put another counter, or another card of your choice.. it's not fundamental.

Regarding the deck general behaviour, it works around the idea of controlling the opponent, and win either with grindstone, or with a gush / fastbond combo finishing (most probably with the help of YWill) into a EtW + Walk. Many could argue that EtW may be just a win more in that scenario, and that may even be true, but EtW is a good alternative win condition, and also a very card to just land a good amount of goblins against creature based or prison decks.