Painter Deck - Questions

[TheBrassMan]

I gotta say, I love sideboard Sundering Titan.  It's a ballsy move, and you can only do it in just the right meta to lose that precious sideboard slot -- but I've done it before, and I think Titan is criminally underrated when people discuss Tinker targets

[Mr. Type 4]

honestly hadn't considered the interaction between Sphinx and Painter naming Red, I generally don't take Sphinx seriously as a target, so I overlooked that.  I can't deny that the protection is very interesting here - though I fear it may not come up very often.  I can't imagine there are many situations where a Painter is in play and you'd want to Tinker out a Sphinx instead of a Grindstone.  I'm sure it happens, I'm just not sure it happens more than the times some other robot is better.  It makes sense though, if I pick up painter again I'll have to seriously consider it.

I'd imagine the situation where this occurs is when you already have the Sphinx out and you find a Painter the following turn to cut off the opponent's potential outs.  It's particularly cool if they answer your Sphinx with something that can block it effectively, like a Steel Hellkite or Iona.  if you have Painter in play already, you probably didnt name Red or Green anyways. 

[Phele]

I love the way how Painter can offer several ways to abuse it in Gush Painter builds. First and most obvious is the interaction between Painter and Grindstone or REB. One additional use is the already mentioned protection for Sphinx. As described you can lay down a painter after tinkering out Sphinx to protect it. This is especially nice against Shops and Fish, where this move usually provides you the needed extra turn to finish the game. It is a side effect, but at least it is another way to use Painter. The last advantage Painter can provide is the mentioned abbility to provide you more cards to pitch. I do for example play one Misdirection as an additional pitch counter, the Commandeer Malhavoc uses can be another possibility. With a Painter out and a pitch spell in hand or on top of your library you can Gush in response to any threat and then have a wide variety of cards you can chose from what to pitch. This is a very nice strategical element and another way to get use of useless cards like extra Grindstones or lands.

This might not put Painter overall on the top, but at least all these uses might be an argument to play a 4 Painter/2 Grindstone configuration. As much as I like a maximum of consistency as well: Grindstone is the weakest card in the deck. Without Senseis Top or Welder there is more less no way to get any use out of this card.

[vassago]

I gotta say, I love sideboard Sundering Titan.  It's a ballsy move, and you can only do it in just the right meta to lose that precious sideboard slot -- but I've done it before, and I think Titan is criminally underrated when people discuss Tinker targets

2nded. I am hard pressed to choose another tinker target other than this guy. Now if only we could be even more ballsyer and play a 1 of Sculpting Steel with it.   

[keys]

I like the idea of a 2 or 3 color painter deck.  Would it still be worth including green for Fastbond if black is out of the picture?  You wouldn't have any way to tutor for it, and that would make Gush a little worse... is 4color just the best way to go with this deck?

[bisamratte]

I like the idea of a 2 or 3 color painter deck.  Would it still be worth including green for Fastbond if black is out of the picture?  You wouldn't have any way to tutor for it, and that would make Gush a little worse... is 4color just the best way to go with this deck?

I'am absolutely convinced, that UBR Painter with a Drainshell is the way to gow. Gush in Painter makes the Controlmatchup better, what is not necessary. On the other hand you weaken your Shop and Noble MU. And, as you said, if you play Gush, you want to play B to find Fastbond, too.
2C Painter was good with 4 Thirsts. UB was fast and broken, UR had a drawengine. With Confidants UB is too slow and inconsistent and that's why you need a third color today. Nice to see btw that guys all around the world start to play my list from Hanau. I've been playing four Paintermirrors at my last tournament... You should test the deck

[keys]

Thanks, where can I find your list?

Here's a UR version I've been toying with.  It's more like MUC, or UR Landstill, with a painter kill.

4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
2 Mana Drain
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Hurkyls Recall

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

3 Blood Moon

4 Painter's Servant
2 Trinket Mage
2 Grindstone
1 Myr Battlesphere/Sphinx of the Steel Wind

1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Black Lotus
1 Library of Alexandria
3 Ancient Tomb
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
5 Island
2 Mountain

Sideboard:
2 Pyroclasm
2 Shattering Spree
2 Viashino Heretic
2 Sower of Temptation
3 Tormods Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pithing Needle
1 Blood Moon

Any thoughts?

[saspook]

Check out http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=41862.0 for some winning lists with 3 and 4 colors.

[keys]

Thanks for this!

I see that the UBR version is popular.  However I have to question whether adding black for Bob and friends is really better than just keeping the deck UR and playing Jace + more mana acceleration.  With Ancient Tombs and Drains I can resolve a Jace almost as easily as a Confidant.  I love the little guy as much as anyone else, but I just don't see why he's such a good fit for this deck.

[bisamratte]

Thanks, where can I find your list?

This is my list from Hanau, that induced the new "Painterrush" http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1372

Playing with B has several benefits. You play Bob and Jace, like other Controldecks. You just got different disruption, i.e. Blasts instead of Thoughtseize and you play the faster Combo instead of some Removalslots. Why remove a threat, if you can just kill your opponent? Also I often cast a Confi or Jace to catch a Force and kill my opponent one turn later. And, turn one Confi is one of the best plays in every controldeck. Black also provides very powerful sideboardcards angainst Dredge and secures some broken Draws. I'd not want to play without it. Blacks makes the Deck faster, too, and that's exactly what you want in game 1. Postboard, you will be playing a controldeck most of the time. I'm thinking about playing two Welders instead of Perish and the fourth Chewer to be able to keep comboing angainst A-removal postboard. There are many nice moves possible with Welder in this deck. Sphinx on top? Just grind and welder it! Stone in play, Painter in grave, but no arifacts to welder? Activate Stone and welder it out for Painter in response! It's up to you to find more

[keys]

I like your decklist a lot.  It looks rock solid.  I'm still intrigued by a 2color list with Blood Moon and acceleration, but I'll definitely test this version out to see which I like better.  Thanks for the help.

[keys]

bisamratte, what do you think of 1-2 Tezzeret AoB in your versions?  It's great at finding combo pieces, and serves as an alternate win condition.  At the vintage tournament I participated in yesterday, Tezz was MVP in every deck that played it.

[bisamratte]

At the vintage tournament I participated in yesterday, Tezz was MVP in every deck that played it.

My questions are: What kind of decks played him? What were their results? How was the meta and what were they paired against? And: Can you compare theese decks to painter?

bisamratte, what do you think of 1-2 Tezzeret AoB in your versions?  It's great at finding combo pieces, and serves as an alternate win condition.

I did not test Tezz AoB yet. But I ask: is Tezz better than Jace? The reason why I've chosen playing Jace in Painter is, that he can substitute bounce spells AND dig for stuff (not just combo pieces, but also solutions, counters, bombs). To rely on Painter+Blasts as creature removal is bad imho. With Jace, you can defend against Hellkites and Tinker (where Tezz loses to) and control the board against most other animals. If I wanted to play Tezz AoB, I'd do it in a deck like this to maximize it's "Mox-to-5/5-Haste-Beater" ability:   

2x Scalding Tarn
1x Tolarian Academy
1x Swamp
2x Underground Sea
5x Island
1x Library of Alexandria
4x Polluted Delta

2x Trinket Mage
1x Myr Battlesphere

1x Black Lotus
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Sol Ring
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Time Vault
1x Voltaic Key

4x Preordain
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Brainstorm

1x Hurkyl's Recall

1x Mystical Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Merchant Scroll
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Tinker
1x Time Walk
1x Yawgmoth's Will

3x Thoughtseize
4x Mana Drain
4x Force of Will

2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

[wierdmtg13]

What is the best way to play against Oath decks? It always seems to be my biggest problem. More recently I have been seeing lists with Emakrul and have no answer to it once hits the board.

My creature suit:
4 Bob
3 Trinket
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind

Counterspell suit:
4 Force
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Spell Pierce

I do run a main deck hurkyl's recall. Should that be my only out to a resolved oath? It just seem emrakul sucks because it prevents grindstone from winning the game and it also cannot be targeted once it gets oathed up.

Thanks for the help.

[bisamratte]

Indeed, Oath is not your best matchup. My experiences with it are not too bad anyway. I've been playing 2:1 against Oath decks during the last three tournaments. One Example: My match for place 3 at Burghausen a few weeks ago was against an Oath deck with Emrakul and Reclamation. My opponent opened game 1 with Orchard, Mox, Oath, I played Lotus, Mox, Land, Demonic, Painter + Stone. He oathes in Sphinx and passes. I play my second land and pass. He puts Emrakul, I mill him eot. I pass my turn again and he loses (Stone>Reclamation). He's been playing really bad, but many people (and many Oath players) do. Except for this example, I always lost to a turn 1-2 Oath with backup and always won if they did not have it. You play Blasts to counter their blue business or to destroy an Oath with Painter on the battlefield (btw: German cards still use the phrase "in play" ). If you get out Confi and they don't drop Oath during the next 2 turns, you outdraw them and win. You play more counters to win the control war, too. Btw: I think you shuold play Drains over Pierces to have reliable hardcounters for the midgame and against land-heavy hands. Getting mana for an instant kill, willturn or Jacedrop with blastbackup also seems to be good.
I think Oath is not a good MU anyway. Those guys ALWAYS have a fast Oath.

If you are really afraid of Oath, try to play the fourth color. Just cut the Chewers and the Perish für 3 Claims and 2 Grudges and play the 4c Manabase. If you are afraid of Combo, play Duress. Just prepare well for your tournaments and try to react to the local meta. That's my advice. I hope it was helpful

p.s.: If you want to avoid getting annihilated play Jace or Sower of Temptation for their Emrakul. They are good against other creatures, too

[keys]

My questions are: What kind of decks played him? What were their results? How was the meta and what were they paired against? And: Can you compare theese decks to painter?

The decks that played him were mostly U/B drain control decks like the list you posted.  This one got 2nd place.  The meta was a lot of Workshop Aggro and Oath.  You need about 12 artifacts to abuse Tezz reliably, and that's a threshold Painter can meet.  I think he's a very viable alternative win con.

I did not test Tezz AoB yet. But I ask: is Tezz better than Jace? The reason why I've chosen playing Jace in Painter is, that he can substitute bounce spells AND dig for stuff (not just combo pieces, but also solutions, counters, bombs). To rely on Painter+Blasts as creature removal is bad imho. With Jace, you can defend against Hellkites and Tinker (where Tezz loses to) and control the board against most other animals. If I wanted to play Tezz AoB, I'd do it in a deck like this to maximize it's "Mox-to-5/5-Haste-Beater" ability:  

Tezz is:
Jace killer
2-3 turn clock
dig for combo pieces

and with just 3 artifacts in play, his ultimate is a 12 pt life swing.  I think he's worthy of a spot in the maindeck somewhere.