2010 Worldgorger Dragon

[nineisnoone]

Nature's Claim doesn't cause Dragon to lose (all it's permanents) though.

Actually, it does exactly that. Dragon enters play, ETB trigger on stack. When you nuke the animate, Dragon's LTB trigger resolves, then the ETB resolves (taking all your permanents forever). If you're fighting through hate at all, you want it to be Grave hate, because disenchant/bounce/swords are all a complete blowout.

Lame.  Well, scratch that idea off the list then.

@FlyFLySideOfFry.
Bitter about Jace is being good much? 

As for everything else.  Blah, blah, blah. Never said anything about Tendrils or Dredge, and you really didn't say anything but the obvious.  Tendrils is fast!  Dredge is good!  Yes, I know Dredge can win through hate.  Durh.  Oath is better?  Good analysis.  You heavily overstate MUD's advantage.  As you do with Fish. 

When did I say WGD was an unstoppable monster?  Did I write some primer about ZOMG THIS IS THE DECK TO BEAT?  Never.  But I guess you couldn't go off on your little rant unless you put those words in my mouth....

[Delha]

Nature's Claim doesn't cause Dragon to lose (all it's permanents) though.

Actually, it does exactly that...

Lame.  Well, scratch that idea off the list then.

Uh... have you ever played Dragon? That was one of the biggest problems for the deck even back in Extended. If you try to go off and they interrupt the loop, it's usually scooptimez.

I'm not saying that you aren't allowed to speak, just that a lot of your suggestions/claims sounded way off to me earlier. It makes more sense to hear that they're coming from a purely theoretical perspective. It also signals me to "show my work" a bit more, instead of assuming you've got a lot of experience w/ the deck. I just assumed you knew the disenchant interaction, for example.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

Nature's Claim doesn't cause Dragon to lose (all it's permanents) though.

Actually, it does exactly that. Dragon enters play, ETB trigger on stack. When you nuke the animate, Dragon's LTB trigger resolves, then the ETB resolves (taking all your permanents forever). If you're fighting through hate at all, you want it to be Grave hate, because disenchant/bounce/swords are all a complete blowout.

Lame.  Well, scratch that idea off the list then.

@FlyFLySideOfFry.
Bitter about Jace is being good much? 

As for everything else.  Blah, blah, blah. Never said anything about Tendrils or Dredge, and you really didn't say anything but the obvious.  Tendrils is fast!  Dredge is good!  Yes, I know Dredge can win through hate.  Durh.  Oath is better?  Good analysis.  You heavily overstate MUD's advantage.  As you do with Fish. 

When did I say WGD was an unstoppable monster?  Did I write some primer about ZOMG THIS IS THE DECK TO BEAT?  Never.  But I guess you couldn't go off on your little rant unless you put those words in my mouth....

First of all I still don't think Jace is all he is cracked up to be but everyone else seems to be running him as a 2-3 of so I used him as a generic draw engine analog. Would you feel less offended if I said Dark Confidant which hits play like 3 turns before you get that bad engine online? Or Intuion->AK which would bury you before you saw any reasonable return?

Second, when you say that Dragon has better win conditions+a better draw engine than Oath/Tezz that is essentially saying you have a better deck. Then again now that I see you didn't even know the most basic part of Dragon (how the loop works) then I certainly forgive you because when I first heard about WGD I thought it was the hottest shit ever also. Its an awesome deck but it will never be past tier 3 again barring some crazy new cards skyrocketing the power level. I strongly suggest you do some serious testing with the deck (or at least learn how it works) before making suggestions for it.

[fury]

Is Deep Analysis really better than Life from the Loam + Bazaar?  You typically don't want to hardcast Deep Analysis anyways (guessing that's why Fury only runs 3).  Plus, Loam is a good counter for Wasteland, which hopefully would balance out the draw back against Wastelands by being 3 color.

Deep allows to draw a lot, Life of the Loam only if there is enough lands in the graveyard, and only with bazaar. So replacing Deep by Life raises the dependance to bazaar, and reduces the amount of blue cards in the deck (which is dangerous for Force of Will). I'm not sure the replacement is efficient. But Life of the loam could be used to fight against mana denial.

More importantly it means you can run Tinker+Sphinx or Vault/Key in those spots. 

Yes, I think it is a real good idead. Here is a sample list :

        1  Flooded Strand
        1  Swamp
        1  Tropical Island
        1  Tundra
        2  Island
        3  Polluted Delta
        3  Underground Sea
        4  Bazaar of Baghdad
        2  Oona, Queen of the Fae
        4  Worldgorger Dragon
        1  Black Lotus
        1  Mana Crypt
        1  Mana Vault
        1  Mox Emerald
        1  Mox Jet
        1  Mox Pearl
        1  Mox Ruby
        1  Mox Sapphire
        1  Sol Ring
        1  Dance of the Dead
        3  Animate Dead
        3  Necromancy
        1  Ancestral Recall
        1  Vampiric Tutor
        3  Read the Runes
        4  Force of Will
        4  Intuition
        1  Demonic Tutor
        1  Time Walk
        3  Deep Analysis
        4  Duress
SB:  1  Time Vault
SB:  1 [ARB] Sphinx of the Steel Wind
SB:  1  Inkwell Leviathan
SB:  1  Voltaic Key
SB:  1  Tinker
SB:  1  Repeal
SB:  2  Enlightened Tutor
SB:  3  Chain of Vapor
SB:  4  Carpet of Flowers

I think someone mentioned it, but I'm not sure why you are running 2 reanimate targets.  Just in case you FoW your Oona?

It is against the control matchup, with Carpet of Flowers. But maybe it is an overkill yes.

Also, I think Time Walk isn't that great here.  At least, it's not better than running an alternate win main deck.

I found space to have both WGD combo and KeyVault combo, with Time walk (see list above). Time walk could not be necessary, but it helps !

[Delha]

I think someone mentioned it, but I'm not sure why you are running 2 reanimate targets.  Just in case you FoW your Oona?

It is against the control matchup, with Carpet of Flowers. But maybe it is an overkill yes.

Carpet of Flowers? How does that affect your combo in any way? If you're going off, they should never see another main phase.

[fury]

I think someone mentioned it, but I'm not sure why you are running 2 reanimate targets.  Just in case you FoW your Oona?

It is against the control matchup, with Carpet of Flowers. But maybe it is an overkill yes.

Carpet of Flowers? How does that affect your combo in any way? If you're going off, they should never see another main phase.

I wasn't clear sorry.

I explain the presence of two Oona by the fact that against the control matchup, Carpet of Flowers allows us to hardcast quickly Oona. That's why there are two of them in the list. But we may find others big creatures to hardcast, in order to diversify kills, around a casting cost of 5-6 manas.

[Delha]

I wasn't clear sorry.

I explain the presence of two Oona by the fact that against the control matchup, Carpet of Flowers allows us to hardcast quickly Oona. That's why there are two of them in the list. But we may find others big creatures to hardcast, in order to diversify kills, around a casting cost of 5-6 manas.

Ah, I understand now. Are you sure that Carpet of Flowers is a good idea? It feels very narrow. I think Dark/Cabal Ritual is better if you just want more mana. Bazaar helps Cabal Rit, and you get the mana right away. I guess I could see Carpet also being helpful against Stax, but Entomb + Animate is only 3 mana in the first place.

[Thegreatgonzo]

Aside from being a permanent, carpet of flowers is useless against stax, since stax runs 0 islands.
But I agree that some rituals (along with a tendrils, and maybe necro/bargain) might be a good answer to drain decks.

the fact they need to care about 2 differents kills is interesting.

[Delha]

Aside from being a permanent, carpet of flowers is useless against stax, since stax runs 0 islands.
But I agree that some rituals (along with a tendrils, and maybe necro/bargain) might be a good answer to drain decks.

the fact they need to care about 2 differents kills is interesting.

Ugh, you're right. That was really dumb of me. I think was mentally blending Carpet and Eladamri's Vineyard.

Edit: Spelling

[fury]

I wasn't clear sorry.

I explain the presence of two Oona by the fact that against the control matchup, Carpet of Flowers allows us to hardcast quickly Oona. That's why there are two of them in the list. But we may find others big creatures to hardcast, in order to diversify kills, around a casting cost of 5-6 manas.

Ah, I understand now. Are you sure that Carpet of Flowers is a good idea? It feels very narrow. I think Dark/Cabal Ritual is better if you just want more mana. Bazaar helps Cabal Rit, and you get the mana right away. I guess I could see Carpet also being helpful against Stax, but Entomb + Animate is only 3 mana in the first place.

Carpet of Flowers is only to be used against control matchup. Not only it gives you mana, but it fears the opponent from landing islands, what Dark/Cabal only give you mana.

Against Stax, it is an evidence that you don't pack in Carpet of Flowers. it's only for decks based on islands (Tezz, Drain and Fish decks for instance).

the fact they need to care about 2 differents kills is interesting.

Especially WGD + KeyVault in the same deck. One kill doesn't need the graveyard, and needs only two cards and colorless mana. The other needs only one reanimation spell, the graveyard and a way to find the kill.

if we resume :