[Free Article] Of Bazaars and Workshops

[voltron00x]

This week's article is a split-topic:  

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/18718_The_Long_Winding_Road_Of_Bazaars_and_Workshops.html


1 - Lodestone Golem.  How do we evaluate this card for Vintage - does it fit into an existing Workshop build, and if so, which one?  If not, how can we build around it?

2 - Sharuum of the Hegemon.  The alternate Dredge build featuring this Legend that came out of TMD boards has quietly racked up some impressive finishes.  What makes it tick and how is it different than other versions of Vintage Dredge?

Some misc. stuff at the end including some thought exercises for Noble Fish, and some Legacy decks & technology from two local Legacy tournaments on 1/16.

I look forward to your comments, especially regarding the Noble Fish hands.  Next week I'll post the updated Noble Fish list I played to a top 4 at the NYSE V, as well as a refined version I think is even better - AND take a look at the impact of Worldwake on this deck and other Vintage archetypes...

[MirariKnight]

Have you permanently moved to Wednesdays now?

Anyway, I haven't played Fish since Mishra's Factory, Cloud of Faeries, Standstill was a good turn 2 play, but here is my take on these hands:

Hand 1:

Noble Hierarch
Null Rod
Daze
Stifle
Mox Pearl
Tundra
Forest

This hand is pretty iffy, because it doesn't really do anything. That said I'd probably keep it unless I knew that Null Rod was a bad play in the matchup. My line of play would be:
Mox, Tundra, Null Rod protected by Daze. Turn 2 I can play the Forest, Noble and have Stifle up. The problem is that it doesn't go too far after that...

Hand 2:

Stifle
Force of Will
Qasali Pridemage
Null Rod
Mox Emerald
Mox Sapphire
Misty Rainforest

This hand is infinitely better. Definitely a keeper. Both Moxes, Rainforest>Tundra, Pridemage with Force or Stifle up. Next turn you can drop the Null Rod if it will help you more than hurt (meaning if you draw another land).
Hand 3:

Noble Hierarch
Meddling Mage
Trygon Predator
Spell Pierce
Force of Will
Tropical Island
Wasteland

This one seems pretty decent, not amazing. If I'm on the draw I'll probably waste whatever land they play. If not I'd go Trop, Hierarch. I have Force up with whichever guy I decide is worse. Next turn I can drop either Mage of Trygon depending on what's better, whether I used the waste, what I drew, etc. Best case scenario is ripping a blue land so I can play Mage with Pierce up.

I don't think this hand is broken:
Black Lotus
Ancestral Recall
Trygon Predator
Force of Will
Spell Pierce
Tropical Island
Wasteland

It's definitely good, but a similar hand (say replace Trygon with anything relevant) in The Deck, or something similar in Tezz, is much, much more broken. Lotus and Recall are, in my opinion, only as broken as what you use them to play/find.
That said, just because it's not broken doesn't mean that it's bad. It's really good. There's two reason I don't play Fish:
1. It's just not why I play Vintage. If I wanted to play a Blue based aggro-control tempo kind of deck, I'd play Legacy.
2. I'm absolutely horrible at attacking with dudes ftw. It's just a skill set that I've neglected by playing Vintage for so long, and I don't think I'm really competent enough with Fish even though it's supposedly "easy" to play.

[Smmenen]

That last bit was hilarious!  


Congratulations on 50 articles!  Time flies!

[Will]

Liked the article as always Elias, but are they going to be on Wednesday from now on?  As far as the B/R Stax with Lodestone (Stoneblade Stax is definitely going to be the name) I still like it from when we were testing it out on Thursday.  If Lodestone doesn't push a lot of people to play Workshops I'm not sure what will to be honest, but get ready for it everyone.  Lastly, Elias you really should have talked about how great those 7 Swords were against my deck since we all know Swords wins the mirror match except for that 10/10 Protection from everything guy that sees a little bit of play. 

[2nd_lawl]

Hand 1:

Noble Hierarch
Null Rod
Daze
Stifle
Mox Pearl
Tundra
Forest

As long as null rod matters in the matchup this hand is fine.


Hand 2:

Stifle
Force of Will
Qasali Pridemage
Null Rod
Mox Emerald
Mox Sapphire
Misty Rainforest

This hand is excellent, locking your self under your own null rod isnt really a concern since you dont have to play it, just run out pridemage with force/stifle backup. if you draw a land next turn, then drop rod, if you dont, just play whatever you drew instead. 

Hand 3:

Noble Hierarch
Meddling Mage
Trygon Predator
Spell Pierce
Force of Will
Tropical Island
Wasteland

Another strong hand, im not sure why this is even a question, snap keep.

Regarding:

Black Lotus
Ancestral Recall
Trygon Predator
Force of Will
Spell Pierce
Tropical Island
Wasteland

I think when people say "broken" what they actually mean is the capability to present a game ending threat on turn 1. Examples would be: Turn 1 Tezz getting vault, Turn 1 tendrils for 20, turn 1 trinisphere into smokestack, turn 1 20/20 flying indestructible, Turn 1 orchard mox oath, etc etc. Fish doesn't have that capability, that doesn't mean its a bad deck, it just means it can't do that.  Obviously that hand is insane. Also fun play with that hand against an opponent who doesn't know what you are playing: Announce that you are moving into your 2nd main phase, then play Lotus on blue into ancestral and bluff mana drain just to mess with them.

[BruiZar]

Nice article

"Independent of Stax, one of the clear losers in the post-Time Vault metagame has been Workshop Aggro, a deck that has almost fallen out of the metagame completely."

This might be true for America, but WSA is pretty popular and has put up good results throughout 2009 afaik.

The problem with the build of Mike Noble is that it runs 16 'red creatures (8 1/1's, 8 2/2's; I count solemn as a red creature because you wont play with it if you dont use red). Although you can disrupt your opponent well, you are giving too much turns away to recover. also, with only 6 mountains, 1 lotus 1 ruby and 4 solemns, it will happen that you can't cast 12 of the creatures in your deck. I will dare to say that Lodestone Golem goes in every workshop deck there is, except for bad ones. Still an impressive finish given the list.

"As far as I know, the original framework for this deck was done by Meadbert on The Mana Drain, who I believe lives in an underground bunker and brews up off-beat but effective Vintage decks all day."

The first version of the deck was done by me, before bloodghast came out and it ran time vault fatestitcher and sharuum. I believe it was Anusien that told me I should run Portal / Altar of Dementia on mIRC instead of Time Vault. Meadbert however, is the grandmaster of Ichorid and I think it was him who refined the list into something playable.

edit: I love the subject matter of this article, as bazaars and workshops are my 2 favorite archetypes! If you could go more in depth in the future, that would be awesome.

[voltron00x]

Just to look at these briefly:

Hand 1:

Noble Hierarch
Null Rod
Daze
Stifle
Mox Pearl
Tundra
Forest

The trick with this hand is all in the play order.  If you suspect you're in a match-up where Null Rod matters (such as against Tezz), you'd play Tundra, Mox Pearl, Null Rod with Daze back-up, and the hand becomes very good.  However, if Null Rod doesn't matter in this matchup, then you're in troble.  You're also not able to Stifle on turn 1, nor play Noble Hierarch on turn 1 with any kind of counter back-up.  The hand also lacks Force of Will, which matters to some people, and also has no real threat outside of swinging for 1 with Noble.  This would be a bad hand against any Workshop deck, for example.


Hand 2:

Stifle
Force of Will
Qasali Pridemage
Null Rod
Mox Emerald
Mox Sapphire
Misty Rainforest

I think this hand is very good also, as you crack rainforest for Tundra, play Mox & Mox, play Pridemage, and keep Sapphire up for Stifle or Pridemage activation.  It just becomes questionable if you dont rip a land for a few turns, b/c if you don't play Null Rod, you're really not going to get very far just attacking for 3 a turn and you haven't disrupted your opponent very much.

Hand 3:

Noble Hierarch
Meddling Mage
Trygon Predator
Spell Pierce
Force of Will
Tropical Island
Wasteland

This is more just to show the flexibilty of the deck.  This hand has so many options:  You can play Trop, Noble, and pass with FoW back-up, and then base turn 2 on what your opponent is playing, either Wasteland, Meddling Mage; Tap out for Trygon; or Wasteland and keep up mana for Spell Pierce and attack.  That said, if you're playing against a deck with Wastelands and they get your Trop, you're in for some mana issues.

[Beralt]

So I am testing the vs matchups for the Dredge Sharuum with my own modification 1 Seat of Synod vs my Red Lodestone Stax (which is the same as Mike Noble's with the Juggs swapped for Lodestone).  My friend is playing Stax, first turn he Wastes my Bazaar, 2nd turn he wastes my Undiscovered, but I still manage to build up my graveyard a bit.  He has removed 3 of my 4 bridges with Solemn and Goblin Welder and has two Thorns in play negating my ability to Dread Return anything, but he can't draw into anything to end it as I have a few Zombies to block.  Then he opts to Welder my Synod into LED, thinking to cut off my reusable blue, but the LED allows me to Dread Return a nice fat Grave-Troll and finally an unearthed Fatesticher to get the final points of damage thru. Game was pre-sideboard but if he had drawn any Lodestone, I would have been locked out.  Both of these decks have some unique features, I guess I end up having issues with stacks because of it's lack of card draw, your suggested list with Bazaar looks interesting and I will have to give it a whirl, but I am going to miss the Confidants.

[BruiZar]

I reread the article and I really believe that the list of Mike Noble is not going to be viable in the future. I am convinced that shop decks must run chalice of the void now that nature's claim has been printed. Nature's claim has the potential to disrupt workshop's tangle wires and spheres very early in the game or simply destroying your beatsticks while they attack with their goyfs. With 9 one drops in the list, chalice of the void hurts you as much as your opponent.

[MirariKnight]

Chalice is absolutely critical for Shop aggro now for two reasons. One is the reason you stated, locking out artifact destruction/bounce. If you look at the lists in the MUD thread, Chalice at 0,1 and even 2 in the right situation doesn't really stop many of your own spells.
The other reason to run Chalice is that Lodestone doesn't stop Moxen at all. If you just drop a Lodestone, it's very easy for them to build up mana and explode around your spheres. Chalice 0 addresses this problem.

[voltron00x]

Before we get too critical of Mykie's list, he just split in the finals of a 16-man side event at the NYSE V.

You're correct that Lodestone doesn't stop fast mana - I just happen to consider Null Rod and Gorilla Shaman to be more effective fast-mana eliminators than Chalice of the Void.  That said, I wasn't looking at Workshop Aggro in the article nor can I speak to it from any position of authority.  I've never been impressed with the deck and have hardly played it at all.

[MirariKnight]

Before we get too critical of Mykie's list, he just split in the finals of a 16-man side event at the NYSE V.

You're correct that Lodestone doesn't stop fast mana - I just happen to consider Null Rod and Gorilla Shaman to be more effective fast-mana eliminators than Chalice of the Void.  That said, I wasn't looking at Workshop Aggro in the article nor can I speak to it from any position of authority.  I've never been impressed with the deck and have hardly played it at all.

I think the problem is that we're discussing two different decks with two different cardpools here. The list Bruizar and I were referring to is most definitely post Worldwake.
Gorilla Shaman + Null Rod work much differently in the two decks, and I must say they are much more effective in the type of deck you're thinking of than the type of deck I'm speaking about.
Sorry to get off topic. On something more related:
The Stax list you posted is interesting. I'm curious as to why you chose to keep Black in the list after eliminating Confidants. Red is the obvious inclusion for Welder, Shaman, Sideboard, as well as Barbarian Ring being really good. I can't help but feel that the two tutors are better as Bazaars or something else, especially given how hard they are for that deck to cast with 4 Lodestones, 4 Thorns, and Shops that don't cast them.

[Ravager Sam]

^{omg i was in an article on starcitygames!} 

I just want to make one note about Sharuum-Dredge -> Sharuum is never used at the same time that Force of Will is; you didn't say anything wrong at all, but I just wanted to clarify a gray area.  In other words, the sideboard plan is quite linear with the entire Sharuum engine coming out (2 dread return, lotus, LED, 3 sharuum, altar, portal) in addition to some other stuff (2 fatestitcher, 1 golgari thug) and Forces, Serenities, Chains, and Dakmor Salvage coming in.  Aside from this, your comments about the deck were accurate and I felt the article was very well written; 13sphere.dec seems like it's going to be an excellent deck.