[Free Article] Visiting Wizards, Reprints and the Reserved List

[Smmenen]

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/18888_So_Many_Insane_Plays_Visiting_Wizards_Reprints_and_the_Reserved_List.html

Editor's Blurb:

Monday, March 1st - A few weeks ago, Stephen Menendian was summoned to WotC Headquarters to discuss reprints and the reserve list, among other things. Today, Stephen reveals where he stands on the subject, and presents an interesting photo essay from his time in the Dream Factory…

[Zieby]

This was a very good article and I must agree with you for 100% regarding reprinting Power or other staples like dual lands. The only thing is, that WotC needs to make sure the product is widely available so all people interested in the product can buy it.

Greetz Arjan

[LotusHead]

Monday, March 1st - A few weeks ago, Stephen Menendian was summoned to WotC Headquarters to discuss reprints and the reserve list, among other things. Today, Stephen reveals where he stands on the subject, and presents an interesting photo essay from his time in the Dream Factory…

This is the weirdest thing I've read on TMD in a long time.

I'm too cheap to spend bucks on SCGPremium, but it will be an agonizingly long 3-6 month period before I can read this article.

WOTC are considering ANYTHING about reprinting actual power?

Are the "Other things" the proxy environment? Must hold breath for 3-6 months!

Congrats on the scoop, whatever that is!

[CHaPuZaS]

Just to make my point... I'm a [1) The Player That Owns Everything] for Legacy and Vintage, also Writer, Judge, Organizer and Collector. AndTHAT'S WHY I have to say what I think about this.

Reprinting *somehow* Duals, Power 9, and other staples, would be the best that would have happen to Eternal... ever. I've been advocating for this in Spain for the last year and a half. Proxies are not a solution. Paying 100$ for Duals or Tarmo is not a solution. The solution is to find a way to do this, and to do it as soon as possible if we want to let Legacy grow and Vintage... revive!

And what's more important, I'm not the only [1) The Player That Owns Everything, 2) Own All of the Staples, 3) Own Most of the Staples] that thinks so.

[Vlad]

Due to my work I was able to buy all the Power and Drains (with the sole exception of Black Lotus) during the course of the last years. However, even so I have spent a small fortune on these cards I really hope that Wizard will change its reprinting policy because it would be good for Vintage (proxies just do not convey the special charm of Vintage and too few people are insane enough or have the money available to pay the price of a car just to play a card game).

[Smmenen]

Could someone post on SCG that the poll numbers are all messed up.  The poll options are supposed to be:

(18.05%) results!   $0.99
(15.76%) results!   $2.57
(11.46%) results!   $3.41
(14.61%) results!   $4.66
(12.03%) results!   $5.19
(10.60%) results!   $14.70
(17.48%) results!   $173.99

[Yare]

Monday, March 1st - A few weeks ago, Stephen Menendian was summoned to WotC Headquarters to discuss reprints and the reserve list, among other things. Today, Stephen reveals where he stands on the subject, and presents an interesting photo essay from his time in the Dream Factory…

This is the weirdest thing I've read on TMD in a long time.

I'm too cheap to spend bucks on SCGPremium, but it will be an agonizingly long 3-6 month period before I can read this article.

WOTC are considering ANYTHING about reprinting actual power?

Are the "Other things" the proxy environment? Must hold breath for 3-6 months!

Congrats on the scoop, whatever that is!

I think the wait is only one month to read premium articles now.

[Onslaught]

I posted a thread with the following quoted post about two months ago and it was promptly deleted. However given the current nature of reprint discussion (there is the article from this thread and another recent article by Ben Bleiwess about his visit to WOTC) I think it's fair to post since it echoes my thoughts on reprinting (as others have done in this thread).

When looking at the price of Berserk, I was surprised to see that it didn't drop after having a foil version printed in "From the Vault: Exiled." This is a card that is not played at all in Vintage and played in one niche budget deck in Legacy. It didn't keep its high price due to people preferring the old art or disliking foil versions or wanting to pimp their deck by having the oldest version, it maintains its value because it's just plain scarce/popular.

What would happen if the Power 9 was released in similar fashion?

    * It gets around the reprint policy (since it only applies to non-premium versions)- Obviously Wizards shouldn't just reprint cards that are out of print and valuable to the secondary market in an attempt to cash-in off the player base, this is negative for the long term value of the game as you have a player base less trusting of the "investment value" of their cards. But this is a special scenario, where an entire format with a dwindling player base revolves around these few cards (along with a few other pricey cards, of course).
    * The existing value of the reprinted cards would not be significantly diminished- Even without Berserk as a case study, this is a pretty fair estimation to make. If you assume an original print run of 18k (is this correct?), a very conservative estimate of 2k being lost/destroyed/tucked away in the closet of an owner unaware of their value, another very conservative estimate of a 70/30 "players to collectors" ratio, then you are left with 11k sets of power spread over US/Europe/other. It would also be fair to say that these players care deeply about the format, and would be more interested in its growth/continuation than preserving the value of their cards. That said, as seen by the above scenario, the cards are just plain scarce and remain highly desirable regardless of playability. If Berserk can hold its value while being unplayed, then power should be able to do the same while being heavily playable. One can even imagine the value of the original cards gaining in value, due to increased interest in the format (along with the usual price creep due to increased scarcity that happens over time).
    * Vintage would become a legitimate sanctioned format- Look at the increased support for Legacy, with two GPs this year and GP Chicago setting the attendance record. Legacy has proven that people like playing old, powerful cards and will do so in pro-level events. With a cost of entry more similar to Legacy, Vintage could easily receive the same amount of interest and official support.


So who wins in this situation? Wizards makes a zillion dollars for free and expands their product by adding a new format to their game with ten years of balancing behind it, retailers make a huge profit from marking up the kits as they did with Exiled, existing Vintage players who own power get increased interest and long term security for their preferred format, existing Vintage players who don't own power have incentive to become more dedicated as card pool is no longer an issue (though this may already be true with the normalization of proxy tournaments), players who don't play Vintage but want to now have the main barrier to entry removed, and collectors have (most likely) no significant negative impact on their investments. Who loses out here?

Does it hurt the aura and mystique of Vintage? Perhaps, but I want to play against real live people using real live cards at big sanctioned tournaments. It's a fair trade off, in my humble opinion of course.

[Killane]

Excellent article! You must be a good lawyer - you proved your point 100% in my book.

I've reversed my position 100%. Reprint power!

[Son of Serra]

This article is hopefully going to bring forward many voices who can persuade Wizards to abolish the reserved list. If a great deal of new people become interested in Vintage and Legacy because key cards become widely available, the older cards that I own will only become more valuable as their novelty increases to a larger body of people. Heck, white-bordered old-framed cards may even be hotter than the new reprints after a few years! Wizards isn't making any new white-bordered cards. And I know I would rather own revised dual lands than new dual lands, even if they were foiled and black-bordered. I like playing with old cards, and you can't make old cards out of new cards!

[Valorale]

I am likely in the same boat as CHaPuZaS (10+ power, 60+ dual lands), falling close to #1 on that description of the eternal community). I support 100% the retiring of the reserve list and opening up the option to reprint the cards that are listed there. I dont have the magical solution on the best way to do it, I trust that if WotC does reprint duals, they will do it in a manner which is not detrimental to the game.

For those who were not playing during that summer when Chronicles was released, it might be difficult to understand the atmosphere and panic that veterans and dealers felt. At the time the internet was in its infancy. The people who were on the usenet groups and got the list of cards being reprinted off chronicles quickly dumped their originals for full value often times on people who werent aware that these cards were being reprinted. Cards like Aladdin went from $35 to $18.
I believe is heavy drop was for two reasons. First, Aladdin wasnt that good, it was worth money because it was rare and somewhat mysterious, once we got our hands on the chronicles version we realized it wasnt that big of a deal. Two, people panicked. Lastly the amount of money being spent on cards in 96 is a tiny fraction of what it is today. Wizards has had the benefit of it's fan-base growing up and getting jobs, we can afford toys and were willing to pay for that black border dual.

[BruiZar]

Chronicles has ruined a lot for magic though. It was really just not neccesary for them to print Chronicles. Many people thought Chronicles, along with the ugly 4th edition borders, and fallen empires was the end of Magic, and it was if they didn't drastically change their sets in the blocks right after that.

I am not against printing duals and power but I am against it if they make them as ugly as the alternate art judge foils. If they are going to reprint the most iconic cards of Magic, they better not make it as ugly as the FTV foils. Also, the idea of new layout power 9 just doesn't sit right with me. For the eternal player, Mox Diamond is miles more beautiful than Chrome Mox or Lotus Bloom.

They should respect the aesthetic value of iconic eternal cards instead of making ugly versions like Berserk



Also, I have no problems with money cards. Goyf and Baneslayer are expensive, persecutor and jace are expensive. Bitterblossom, Thoughtseize, Mutavault and Cryptic Command were expensive. Its not like the t2 player can't afford cards man.

[Caron]

.. i have all the cards too, i'm a very old player, and i totally agree that it would be great if they reprint them..
it wuold give MTG new life...
and it would give Wizzy fresh good money...



CARONDIMONIO

[reaperbong]

old time player that luckily still has my Lotus, Ancestral, Time Walk and Mox Jet and Sapphire from back in the day. I for one would absolutely LOVE to see reprints. I'd be nice to have access to the off color Moxen but no way in hell would I ever pay the prices they're going for these days, it's just too ridiculous.

[zeromancer]

Nice article. I agree with what was said about sense and effects of the reserved list. Power should be reprinted in the interest of vintage.

But there is also one thing that makes me wonder. It was said in the article that the whole discussion primarily concerned Legacy, and that wizards want to support Legacy and save the format from sharing Vintage's fate. Is this the confirmation that they don't care much about vintage and have more or less given up on the format?

[Tiki Walker]

And what's more important, I'm not the only [1) The Player That Owns Everything, 2) Own All of the Staples, 3) Own Most of the Staples] that thinks so.

You are correct on those 3 points you made.

I and my T1 friends support reprints of old cards if that is what it takes to get more T1 friends who can play with us using real cards, not proxies. That, and no more senseless deck building restriction policies.

There is no need to do reprints in foils, we are just as happy to see old cards reprints done in alternate arts aesthetically; that is, do not make something that looks like that berserk alternate art!   

[Odd mutation]

Just to make my point... I'm a [1) The Player That Owns Everything] for Legacy and Vintage, also Writer, Judge, Organizer and Collector. AndTHAT'S WHY I have to say what I think about this.

Reprinting *somehow* Duals, Power 9, and other staples, would be the best that would have happen to Eternal... ever. I've been advocating for this in Spain for the last year and a half. Proxies are not a solution. Paying 100$ for Duals or Tarmo is not a solution. The solution is to find a way to do this, and to do it as soon as possible if we want to let Legacy grow and Vintage... revive!

And what's more important, I'm not the only [1) The Player That Owns Everything, 2) Own All of the Staples, 3) Own Most of the Staples] that thinks so.

Seconded!

[Lemnear]

I guess it would be ok to reprint some cards like berserk (they did already), drain, duals, fow or even bazaar to make eternal more accessible. But reprinting Power, moreover in some alternative art foils would crush prices of real power. bersek wasn't fairly played ... so the price drop was not to crushing.

Giving everyone access to unique cards like bazaar or fow feel right but with near identical cards like the shocklands compared to original duals that makes no sense to me. Of course loosing 2 life isn't that hot but it's an alternative that isn't too bad.

The idea that everyone should be able to play with all the cards he/she desires was the thing that caused the long discussed proxy problem.

Your solution is to this problem is like the same as some nations have (greek is a topic in europe todays). If we have no money lets print more! Inflation dudes! I can't belive we're talking about a hundred cards per year thrown into boosters like WOTC did. Your talking about big numbers in reprint to "give everyone who wants his own set of power". Yeah, lets print some vintage starters for 30 Euro per pack with power included! Why is magic to some people so different than any other stuff? You want a better car so you have to face greater costs and that seems normal to us ... but Magic ... that should be different.

I remember someone in this forum a long time ago who complains about the time he shipped power to europe to make money and wonders why power is so rare and expensive in the us so WOTC should reprint them so he can own power again.

I could only shake my head about that topic and as happy as I can be that a vintage-nerd like steven was invited to wotc  I'm wondered that this kind of public feedback isn't a topic in case of restrictions/unrestrictions but only in terms of earning money with the long forgotten vintage players

May Steven could give "his" community a hint if we are talking about the reserved list that is bullshit in more than 80% of all cases or if it could be a threat to collectors that some are worried about?

[Valorale]

Power, moreover in some alternative art foils would crush prices of real power.

What do you base that on? That people will want a foil version of power over the original version? Ben Bleiweiss; one of SCG's top buyers did a decent job dispelling the myth that people want foils in a recent article. In a nutshell he says

"As someone involved in the buying and selling of Magic cards, this math alone demonstrates to me that foils are unpopular with the majority of Magic players. The difference in magnitude of rarity versus cost is approaching 20 to 1, which is such a wide gulf, that it actually startles me every time I do this math."

There are probably a handful of people that would prefer a foil version reprint over a non, but a foil version over an original A/B/U? Few if any.

[Killane]

I guess it would be ok to reprint some cards like berserk (they did already), drain, duals, fow or even bazaar to make eternal more accessible. But reprinting Power, moreover in some alternative art foils would crush prices of real power. bersek wasn't fairly played ... so the price drop was not to crushing.

Giving everyone access to unique cards like bazaar or fow feel right but with near identical cards like the shocklands compared to original duals that makes no sense to me. Of course loosing 2 life isn't that hot but it's an alternative that isn't too bad.

The idea that everyone should be able to play with all the cards he/she desires was the thing that caused the long discussed proxy problem.

Your solution is to this problem is like the same as some nations have (greek is a topic in europe todays). If we have no money lets print more! Inflation dudes! I can't belive we're talking about a hundred cards per year thrown into boosters like WOTC did. Your talking about big numbers in reprint to "give everyone who wants his own set of power". Yeah, lets print some vintage starters for 30 Euro per pack with power included! Why is magic to some people so different than any other stuff? You want a better car so you have to face greater costs and that seems normal to us ... but Magic ... that should be different.

I remember someone in this forum a long time ago who complains about the time he shipped power to europe to make money and wonders why power is so rare and expensive in the us so WOTC should reprint them so he can own power again.

I could only shake my head about that topic and as happy as I can be that a vintage-nerd like steven was invited to wotc  I'm wondered that this kind of public feedback isn't a topic in case of restrictions/unrestrictions but only in terms of earning money with the long forgotten vintage players

May Steven could give "his" community a hint if we are talking about the reserved list that is bullshit in more than 80% of all cases or if it could be a threat to collectors that some are worried about?

Inflation? You're not comparing apples to apples. Magic cards are not money, they are commodities. High end magic cards are luxury commodities that imcrease in value with demand and decrease with supply. A good comparision woudl be a high-end automobile.

A brand new, high end Ferrari Enzo costs about $600,000.00 (MSRP) It's far faster and more powerful than vintage Ferrari's, yet some Vintage Ferrari's sell for over $10,000,000.00. Why? Style, rarity, pimp value.

A reprint Black Lotus would be the 2011 model year Ferrari of magic- faster, more powerful, and mroe expenseive that pretty much any other 2011 model. However, it woudl do nothign to decrease the value of the beautiful vintage 1965 Ferrari (or 1994 Lotus) you have parked in your garage (binder).

[kkoie]

After reading this thread and others I would have to agree with the re-print everything camp.  My collection is extensive enough that I can play virtually any vintage deck, and I would love for them to reprint stuff, just so that there would be more people in my area to play.  As it stands, I have to wait for vintage tournies which usually requires a long drive.  I don't mind proxy events but I think more people would play if they had easier access to power.

[Smmenen]

I guess it would be ok to reprint some cards like berserk (they did already), drain, duals, fow or even bazaar to make eternal more accessible. But reprinting Power, moreover in some alternative art foils would crush prices of real power. bersek wasn't fairly played ... so the price drop was not to crushing.

Giving everyone access to unique cards like bazaar or fow feel right but with near identical cards like the shocklands compared to original duals that makes no sense to me. Of course loosing 2 life isn't that hot but it's an alternative that isn't too bad.

The idea that everyone should be able to play with all the cards he/she desires was the thing that caused the long discussed proxy problem.

Your solution is to this problem is like the same as some nations have (greek is a topic in europe todays). If we have no money lets print more! Inflation dudes! I can't belive we're talking about a hundred cards per year thrown into boosters like WOTC did. Your talking about big numbers in reprint to "give everyone who wants his own set of power". Yeah, lets print some vintage starters for 30 Euro per pack with power included! Why is magic to some people so different than any other stuff? You want a better car so you have to face greater costs and that seems normal to us ... but Magic ... that should be different.

I remember someone in this forum a long time ago who complains about the time he shipped power to europe to make money and wonders why power is so rare and expensive in the us so WOTC should reprint them so he can own power again.

I could only shake my head about that topic and as happy as I can be that a vintage-nerd like steven was invited to wotc  I'm wondered that this kind of public feedback isn't a topic in case of restrictions/unrestrictions but only in terms of earning money with the long forgotten vintage players

May Steven could give "his" community a hint if we are talking about the reserved list that is bullshit in more than 80% of all cases or if it could be a threat to collectors that some are worried about?

First of all, I certainly take the long view.   The issue is simple: What is in the best interest of the long-term health of the game?   Regardless of whether you actually want them to reprint any cards on the Reserved List or not, I think it's hard to argue that the Reserved List serves the long-term health of the game.   In 1996, it was believed that it did.  By why should a 15 year old policy bind the hands of Wizards a year from now, two years from now, or ten years from now? 

The point, also, isn't to print money.  The point is growth the formats.   

Magic is Growing.  Big Time.   there are more players in Magic than ever, and there are far more players today than even two years ago.    What if the Magic player base were twice as large in ten years as it is now?   

Magic was not designed with large enough print runs for a long-term future.   It's not that either Vintage or Legacy currently *need* reprints.   Vintage can tread water, as its done for several years now, with proxies.    Legacy can also survive as a niche format indefnitely.  But if Wizards wants to support Legacy more broadly in the future, then there is a good chance (although not a given) that they'll need to print more dual lands. 

[Troy_Costisick]

Magic is Growing.  Big Time.   there are more players in Magic than ever, and there are far more players today than even two years ago.    What if the Magic player base were twice as large in ten years as it is now?   

Magic was not designed with large enough print runs for a long-term future.

Excellent point Stephen.  I'd just want to add it's growing very quickly in a terrible world-wide recession.  What are the possibilities once that recession turns around?

[DubDub]

Magic was not designed with large enough print runs for a long-term future.   It's not that either Vintage or Legacy currently *need* reprints.   Vintage can tread water, as its done for several years now, with proxies.    Legacy can also survive as a niche format indefnitely.  But if Wizards wants to support Legacy more broadly in the future, then there is a good chance (although not a given) that they'll need to print more dual lands. 

So do they?
They've just had a Legacy GP that got 2,200 players.  Most ever.  What about that is going to suggest to them that there's a problem with Legacy?

It's not like reprints are the only way to *revive* Vintage (if they are in fact a way at all).  They have other options that don't involve breaking the policy.  Shouldn't they explore those other options first?

[Smmenen]

Magic was not designed with large enough print runs for a long-term future.   It's not that either Vintage or Legacy currently *need* reprints.   Vintage can tread water, as its done for several years now, with proxies.    Legacy can also survive as a niche format indefnitely.  But if Wizards wants to support Legacy more broadly in the future, then there is a good chance (although not a given) that they'll need to print more dual lands. 

So do they?
They've just had a Legacy GP that got 2,200 players.  Most ever.  What about that is going to suggest to them that there's a problem with Legacy?

This is tripping alot of folks up.    I'm not saying that they have to reprint dual lands, or will have to, with certainty.  I'm saying that the day may come when they will have to.   And, the Reserved list ties their hands from doing what may be necessary.   

The longer they wait, the more difficult it will be to do it, as people will become more and more resistant, particularly if legacy staples rise in price.   People who own $100 dual lands are going to be much more opposed to abolishing the reserved list, even if that does not mean that Wizards even intends to reprint duals, than if duals are 40-60, as they are now.   

Legacy is fine right now.   But it might not be if Magic continues to grow at current rates. 

[Suicideking]

Magic is Growing.  Big Time.   there are more players in Magic than ever, and there are far more players today than even two years ago.    What if the Magic player base were twice as large in ten years as it is now?   

Magic was not designed with large enough print runs for a long-term future.

Excellent point Stephen.  I'd just want to add it's growing very quickly in a terrible world-wide recession.  What are the possibilities once that recession turns around?

This is interesting because I think the player base could drop.  My sister is a MBA and a gamer and she thinks people are more likely to do stuff like drafting now because 8 friends can throw in $15 and get a box, and at the end you have something you can sell.  This is much more reasonable then going to Mexico, or spending a night at the clubs.  Movie theaters are also thriving for similar reasons.

I think the recession is affecting the price of stuff like power which has stayed stagnant for a while now and even has dropped.  There really isn't a huge need for it.  Legacy stuff is growing but there are large money tournaments happening all the time so theres a justification for the investment.  Power just can never tail off in value because there are plenty of dealers who are willing to buy it up.

[Beralt]

From reading Steve's article it is much more likely that they are going to reprint some Legacy staples then the Power 9.  But when they fully break the barrier, there will be an arguement for the reprinting of power eventually.

I have almost of the cards needed to play most vintage decks, I do view them as an investment - but at the same time I am a player and the reprinting of older cards would open up a wider player base.  It would even contribute to other formats such as cube drafting and EDH.

[DubDub]

I'm not saying that they have to reprint dual lands, or will have to, with certainty.  I'm saying that the day may come when they will have to.   And, the Reserved list ties their hands from doing what may be necessary.   

The longer they wait, the more difficult it will be to do it, as people will become more and more resistant, particularly if legacy staples rise in price.   People who own $100 dual lands are going to be much more opposed to abolishing the reserved list, even if that does not mean that Wizards even intends to reprint duals, than if duals are 40-60, as they are now.   

Legacy is fine right now.   But it might not be if Magic continues to grow at current rates. 

This I actually agree with.  I have to apologize because I haven't read your article, though I certainly will in a month.  The problem I see is timing.
I am in favor of abolishing the Reserve List, but not reprinting cards.  However, I think rewriting the policy now will signal to those clamoring for reprints that reprints are coming.  I think people need to be told that reprints are not imminent, and that should be the truth, at the same time as a change is made in policy.

Now, I only look at Legacy as a competitor to Vintage, and can see what some support does for a format.  Doesn't Wizards care enough to support Vintage?  If not I expect a slow bleed of the Vintage community where Legacy legal cards get sold to Legacy players, Legacy banned cards (Power) get sold to dealers, and the format dies.

[2nd_lawl]

Now, I only look at Legacy as a competitor to Vintage

This is exactly the wrong way to look at it.  Magic Begets more Magic.  Vintage has "natural" appeal, and more players with more legacy staples (many of which are also vintage staples) only makes it easier for new players to try out, and fall in love with vintage. 

[DubDub]

Now, I only look at Legacy as a competitor to Vintage

This is exactly the wrong way to look at it.  Magic Begets more Magic.  Vintage has "natural" appeal, and more players with more legacy staples (many of which are also vintage staples) only makes it easier for new players to try out, and fall in love with vintage. 

Okay, yes I phrased that incorrectly.  There is a natural progression of Block -> Standard -> Extended -> Legacy -> Vintage.  However, at the same time we've seen Vintage players leave the format so that they can continue to play with 4x Brainstorm, and again more recently due to the two GPs and SCG's $5K opens.  In the short term, the increased returns to playing Legacy hurt Vintage, because Legacy is a substitute for Vintage.  While normally we would expect an increase in Legacy players to lead to an increase in Vintage players over time, that may not be the case if no one is left playing Vintage to draw them in.