[Free Article] Visiting Wizards, Reprints and the Reserved List

[AmbivalentDuck]

Quite honestly, I think they expected me to be the one voice in the room opposed to reprints of cards in the Reserved List. 

Based on your advocacy of CE power?  That's definitely a twist on what I expected.

[Smmenen]

Quite honestly, I think they expected me to be the one voice in the room opposed to reprints of cards in the Reserved List. 

Based on your advocacy of CE power?  That's definitely a twist on what I expected.

I doubt they are even aware of the fact that I think more non-sanctioning TOs should legalize CE. 

And, even if they were, that's a tremendous leap.   They know I own power, so they probably think that I wouldn't want it reprinted, or even a risk of that happening. 

[hecuter]

This is a very, very simple issue: What is best for Vintage or Legacy as a format?     There is only one obvious answer.    If you care about Vintage or Legacy as a FORMAT, then obviously reprints are a must.  

The situation is far more dire in Vintage than Legacy.    There are only 23,500 copies of power ever printed.

Consider this: Magic is growing quite rapidly.    Zendikar was the  greatest selling set ever.  There are more people playing Magic at all levels than ever before.   Even cards printed 2-3 years ago are very undersupplied to meet demand.   See Goyf.  

If we want Eternal Formats to grow, and I hope we do, reprints are going to be inevitable.   Unless you like having Eternal formats be elitist (which I certainly oppose, except on age discrimination grounds (i'm not a fan of playing against 12 year olds), then reprints are the only solution.

Face the facts: the people who made Magic had no idea it would ever be the popular.  It's not only growing beyond Richard Garfield's wildest imagination, but beyond what people expected even 5 years ago.  

Legacy faces a critical problem:  Dual lands are the fundamental building block of the format.    They are actually more important than basic lands.   You can't build anything by mono-colored decks without dual lands.    Dual land + Fetchland is the most important interaction in that format.    

It would be like if basic Forest cost $50.   That's what's going on in legacy at the moment.  It's a huge problem.  

But the problem in Vintage has been much worse; we've just come to accept it as inevitable.   To play Vintage in the long-run you need power.    Power costs a ridiculous amount, and those prices are only going to get worse.    Again, what would it be like if basic Island cost $300.  That's the magnitude of the problem.  

If you care about Eternal formats, then the Reserved list is a fundamental impediment to their growth and vitality.  

I'm sorry you disagree.  

I think your comment about the $50 basic lands was right on the money (so to speak).  When a card becomes so necessary in a deck that to play without massively affects your chances, it shouldn't be that expensive.  We saw with many FTV: Exiled cards that even when they were reprinted, the value of the older cards didn't plummet as many predicted.  Collectors enjoy older, hard to find cards, whereas the new members enjoy simply getting into the format.  Card value will go down, for sure, but it won't suddenly turn that $300 mox into a $25 rare.  

 I think I can offer a unique perspective here as someone who is transitioning from T2 to Vintage.  When I first began magic, Vintage was a fantasy-land.  Paying upwards of $2500 for a few cards?  Impossible.  And I'm sure the majority of the new players in Zendikar you mention think the same way.  It's like being 12 and dreaming of a Ferrari.  They're not the ones WotC is catering to with reprints though, so having a host of 12 year old descend on Vintage and asking why they can't cast a bolt mid-resolution because 'it's instant speed' is pretty unlikely.  Now I'm at a point where I've got my vintage deck put together save the power cards.  On the one hand, collecting them will be a hugely expensive endeavor, but on the other hand, I know that if I needed to, I could sell them down the road without much loss.  Same goes for my other cards: I moaned about the price while buying them, but if WotC was to reprint and lower the big-ticket cards, I'd feel slightly cheated.  Catch-22.  

Sometimes the Vintage atmosphere can seem like that of a prestigious country club.  It takes a huge amount of money to get in, if you can even get yourself on the waitlist (by finding a complete set of P9), and once you're there, members are few and far between because of the restrictions.  All the while they bemoan the decline of the format while not bothering to lower the price of admission.  

The question seems very simple - the health of the format or the greed of it's members.

[BruiZar]

My previous post went too deep into the power 9 issue. I understand that legacy is the driving force of the increasing prices of eternal staples (often, subpar for vintage standards). Vintage doesn't set prices, legacy does. There are many viable decks in legacy because the format is not as well developed as vintage is in terms of deckbuilding. Bad decks make top 8 and the most rare cards in those decks become expensive (See Moat, enchantress and white stax).

Just because people like to play with subpar/rogue decks doesn't warrant the reprinting of cards like Moat. Of all people, Andy knows how often I talk to him about one of my bad but cute ideas to build a deck, even though I know its bad. There are many more people like me who would rather run something terrible but cool than simply running the best deck. Do we have to sacrifice the reserved list to combat the cute tricks bad legacy deckbuilders run? Ofcourse not! Countertop uses no Tabernacle, no Sea Drake, no Reset, no Retainers, no Recruiters, no Moat, no Diamond Valley, etc. It runs blue-based duals and Force of Will, and I can see the problem that in order to win a legacy tournament, the entry barrier is becoming more and more 4xFoW 4x Tropical Island 4x Tundra 4x Goyf.

So, what is the solution? Reprint Goyf (it was future sighted anyway), create a deck with Hallowed Fountain and Breeding Pool (Something that can use Amulet of Vigor to offset tapped into play?) and buy Force of Will. Thankfully, FoW was an uncommon and not a rare. If limited players can purchase Jace, Baneslayer and Elspeth, they should be able to get their hands on some Force of Wills.

[honestabe]

 
 members are few and far between because of the restrictions.  

Here's what I'm scared of:  

I was always under the impression that people don't play vintage because since June 2008 they find it unfun.  First off, it's probably in everyone's best interest to focus on getting people to WANT to play vintage, THEN worry about the prices.  How many ivntage players quit and turned to legacy to use 4x brainstorm?  How many just flat out quit magic?  A lot.  Tournament attendance hasn't been the same since.  Time vault didn't help either.  I feel that first, a new B/R list needs to be worked out.  Hopefully, this attracts the attention of ex-vintage players and current legacy players.  Once interest is gained, THEN it seems like a logical time to reprint power and other expensive vintage staples.  Reprinting power and then hoping people want to play vintage just isn't smart.  Because if non vintage players decide they still just don't like the format the way it is right now (which is the major reason people don't play) then we will find ourselves with a bunch of worthless power.

Legacy has undergone a huge popularity boost, and because of this, it is a good idea to reprint dual lands, as well as other legacy staples.  However if legacy staples were reprinted 2 years ago, it probably would have been catastrophic for their value, as there just wasn't enough demand.  If Wizards wants to reprint power, there needs to be a large dmenad for it, and I honestly don't think there is.  If for some reason, everyone decides they ant to play vintage again, then by all means, print that shit, but first, we need to focus on making people want to play.

[2nd_lawl]

how many ivntage players quit and turned to legacy to use 4x brainstorm?  How many just flat out quit magic?

None, They were going to quit anyway and just needed an excuse.  The format is Healthier than ever, there are a ton of viable decks. If the format was really to blame then you wouldn't see some areas thriving and others doing poorly, it would be doing poorly everywhere.  Vintage lost players because people, including TO's in some areas, got lazy and complacent and stopped bringing new people to the format. 

[DubDub]

People didn't stop eating or working or sleeping upon announcement of the SCG Legacy Open series, they just didn't test for Extended as much, or played less EDH, or played less Vintage.

Or maybe they played the same amount of extended, EDH and Vintage, and watched less TV.  Either way, why does Legacy as a format shoulder the blame for this? Every SCG legacy 5k is accompanied by a Standard 5k!  So why is legacy in particular to blame for Your communities attendance problem?  By your own admission Legacy cards often have use in vintage which should ATTRACT people to the format, After all what are they going to do with their dual lands during the 51 Weeks of the year that a Legacy 5k ISN'T in town?  Playing vintage seems like a pretty good answer.

Some people did decide to watch less TV.  Others substituted Legacy for Extended, EDH, Vintage etc.  Most made changes in both areas; playing more at the expense of TV time, and playing more Legacy at the expense of other formats.  Legacy is a better substitute for Vintage than Magic is for watching TV.
I've talked about Legacy because it's the best substitute for Vintage, and because it's the format that has gained the most support recently.  You're right about the string of Standard Opens, except that Standard is a worse substitute for Vintage, and it's a smaller increase in support proportionately.

Legacy has undergone a huge popularity boost, and because of this, it is a good idea to reprint dual lands, as well as other legacy staples.  However if legacy staples were reprinted 2 years ago, it probably would have been catastrophic for their value, as there just wasn't enough demand.  If Wizards wants to reprint power, there needs to be a large demand for it, and I honestly don't think there is.  If for some reason, everyone decides they want to play vintage again, then by all means, print that shit, but first, we need to focus on making people want to play.

This is what I'm saying.
I am in favor of having supply meet demand, but as I've said I think there are a number of actions that can be taken to make Vintage more attractive, and that would be my priority.

[Onslaught]

create a deck with Hallowed Fountain and Breeding Pool (Something that can use Amulet of Vigor to offset tapped into play?)

lmao

[Tha Gunslinga]

The thing is, none of this matters for Vintage.  Reprints or whatever won't bring people in to Vintage; Vintage has many other barriers that are far worse than card availability.  People aren't really quitting Vintage because they can't afford it, at least for the most part, since the US is pretty much all proxies, and Europe seems to be able to afford cards fairly well, given their attendance at larger events.  Wizards will most likely do some sort of reprints in some sort of special product such as From the Vaults or whatever, but it will take a while to get the ball rolling on things, and in the meantime people will continue to yowl for whatever, while Wizards pays it no mind.  Vintage in the US is fairly quiet right now, and will continue to be quiet for the forseeable future.  No matter what happens in Magic, Vintage will not suddenly resurge in popularity; that's Legacy's domain, and I don't see much chance of Legacy players leaving for Vintage, or even caring about Vintage. 

[zimagic]

And if the new foils are ugly, doesn;t that simply help the cause of rendering them the Teir 3 of power and keeping unlimited and AB power valuable and desirable? If you're against reprints, arenlt ugly ones better for your cause than beautiful ones?

I can't say I understand your position at all. Can you elabourate?

The problem is they can never do it right. If reprinted power is done too well, the value of real power drops. If its too ugly, they are desecrating vintage holy cards. I'm pretty sure that if they would print From the Vault: Power, they will use the vintage championship art. If I can pick up a foil set of championship power for $1000 I would probably have more than one of them. If the MSRP value is $35 and I can get them for that price, I will buy as much as I can humanly get my hands on, even if it means I need to take a loan for it, because I'll be making a fortune selling them back for more.

If you want to increase the distribution of certain cards without effecting the value of the originals then it stands to reason that you need to reprint a card in the least desireable format possible to retain the aesthetic draw and market value of the original version: Berserk-style new art, new frame, foil etc.

In order to insure the largest possible distribution into the hands of players rather than dealers, you're talking about either player rewards through attendance cards, FNM or the current PR system or, more likely, a high print run booster or box-set release.

It's also very important to remember that, no matter what you do, someone will be screaming blue murder.

[Tiki Walker]

 
 members are few and far between because of the restrictions.  

Here's what I'm scared of:  

I was always under the impression that people don't play vintage because since June 2008 they find it unfun.  First off, it's probably in everyone's best interest to focus on getting people to WANT to play vintage, THEN worry about the prices.  How many vintage players quit and turned to legacy to use 4x brainstorm?  How many just flat out quit magic?  A lot.  Tournament attendance hasn't been the same since.  Time vault didn't help either.  I feel that first, a new B/R list needs to be worked out.  Hopefully, this attracts the attention of ex-vintage players and current legacy players.  Once interest is gained, THEN it seems like a logical time to reprint power and other expensive vintage staples.  Reprinting power and then hoping people want to play vintage just isn't smart.  Because if non vintage players decide they still just don't like the format the way it is right now (which is the major reason people don't play) then we will find ourselves with a bunch of worthless power.

Good opinion.

I cannot speak for other players from outside of my T1 ring, but I know for sure that me, 2 of my old T1 friends, and 7 other T1 players that used to gather together with us and play T1 in the old days outright considered it was outrageous that we were exiled from the decks that we liked, from the decks that we had collected their components one by one because we liked how those particular decks played. It was not a mere cards collecting project for us.

We did not mind at all if certain decks were made obsolete through the printing of new cards, better mechanics, better abilities, and through ever evolving skill of deckbuilding resulting in newer and better decks. However, what has happened was exactly the opposite.


Moreover, new players that we were trying to attract to T1 did not give us the issue of price as the entry barrier. We tried to help them got interested in T1 by lending cards, selling necessary cards cheaper, we helped them with decklists, playtests, etc. They are outright objected to the idea that the supposed to be powerful T1 decks nowadays stand a fair chance of losing to a good, competitive 1.5 decks. There is no more anything fascinating about seeing T1 decks, acquiring cards to build one, and playing with them now, they said.

Yes, the current price of P9 does influence whether someone might want to join or no. But, T1 is a hobby. If it is fun and really worthy as a hobby, perhaps as with other hobbies people are more willing to consider that they might want to join in because they also want to experience the fun.

With that, we think now that it is much better and much more fun for us to just play 1.5. More decks, more opponents to play with, and we get to play with any 1.5 decks that support cards that we used to like to play with in T1. To us, that equals fun.

We agreed that just blindly reprinting old cards will not necessarily bring new players in and retain old players to try T1 or to keep playing T1. Fun is equally important, and if it is fun perhaps players are more willing to part with some of their money.


Regarding the pictures of those oversized power 9 cards someone posted on the previous page.

There is nothing that can make me want to ditch out my power to get P9 cards with that new border, that new arts (especially that timetwister, the ugliest of them all), and that foil treatment. At whatever price, thank you very much, I shall keep mine any time any day. Those were really prizes for winning T1 World Championships?  I consider the one that Tom Chanpheng got more valuable than any of those. What is worse, they cannot be played at all due to the painting size.

To reflect true support to T1, the very least they could have done was to provide Top 9 of the T1 World Championships with 9 P9 cards that actually were fully playable.

[Tiki Walker]

how many ivntage players quit and turned to legacy to use 4x brainstorm?  How many just flat out quit magic?

None. They were going to quit anyway and just needed an excuse.  The format is Healthier than ever, there are a ton of viable decks.

Incorrect. That does not apply to me and my T1 friends. We currently prefer to play in 1.5 because it gives us more fun because we get to play with decks and cards that we like, and we are not yet ready to quit eternal nor do we ready to quit magic yet.   

[BruiZar]

 
 members are few and far between because of the restrictions.  

Here's what I'm scared of:  

I was always under the impression that people don't play vintage because since June 2008 they find it unfun.  First off, it's probably in everyone's best interest to focus on getting people to WANT to play vintage, THEN worry about the prices.  How many vintage players quit and turned to legacy to use 4x brainstorm?  How many just flat out quit magic?  A lot.  Tournament attendance hasn't been the same since.  Time vault didn't help either.  I feel that first, a new B/R list needs to be worked out.  Hopefully, this attracts the attention of ex-vintage players and current legacy players.  Once interest is gained, THEN it seems like a logical time to reprint power and other expensive vintage staples.  Reprinting power and then hoping people want to play vintage just isn't smart.  Because if non vintage players decide they still just don't like the format the way it is right now (which is the major reason people don't play) then we will find ourselves with a bunch of worthless power.

Good opinion.

I cannot speak for other players from outside of my T1 ring, but I know for sure that me, 2 of my old T1 friends, and 7 other T1 players that used to gather together with us and play T1 in the old days outright considered it was outrageous that we were exiled from the decks that we liked, from the decks that we had collected their components one by one because we liked how those particular decks played. It was not a mere cards collecting project for us.

We did not mind at all if certain decks were made obsolete through the printing of new cards, better mechanics, better abilities, and through ever evolving skill of deckbuilding resulting in newer and better decks. However, what has happened was exactly the opposite.


Moreover, new players that we were trying to attract to T1 did not give us the issue of price as the entry barrier. We tried to help them got interested in T1 by lending cards, selling necessary cards cheaper, we helped them with decklists, playtests, etc. They are outright objected to the idea that the supposed to be powerful T1 decks nowadays stand a fair chance of losing to a good, competitive 1.5 decks. There is no more anything fascinating about seeing T1 decks, acquiring cards to build one, and playing with them now, they said.

Yes, the current price of P9 does influence whether someone might want to join or no. But, T1 is a hobby. If it is fun and really worthy as a hobby, perhaps as with other hobbies people are more willing to consider that they might want to join in because they also want to experience the fun.

With that, we think now that it is much better and much more fun for us to just play 1.5. More decks, more opponents to play with, and we get to play with any 1.5 decks that support cards that we used to like to play with in T1. To us, that equals fun.

We agreed that just blindly reprinting old cards will not necessarily bring new players in and retain old players to try T1 or to keep playing T1. Fun is equally important, and if it is fun perhaps players are more willing to part with some of their money.


Regarding the pictures of those oversized power 9 cards someone posted on the previous page.

There is nothing that can make me want to ditch out my power to get P9 cards with that new border, that new arts (especially that timetwister, the ugliest of them all), and that foil treatment. At whatever price, thank you very much, I shall keep mine any time any day. Those were really prizes for winning T1 World Championships?   I consider the one that Tom Chanpheng got more valuable than any of those. What is worse, they cannot be played at all due to the painting size.

To reflect true support to T1, the very least they could have done was to provide Top 9 of the T1 World Championships with 9 P9 cards that actually were fully playable.

Bazaar dredge trumps ichorid dredge
workshop stax trumps white stax
vault/key trumps any other blue deck
Oath trumps survival
BUG Fish and Noble fish are probably the only legacy decks in vintage right now in terms of power


I took the liberty to fiddle around with magic set editor to show what it would look like. It would be foiled but I didn't have the foil layover. You can be the judge.
http://img705.imageshack.us/i/moxruby.jpg/
http://img692.imageshack.us/i/moxpearl.jpg/
http://img168.imageshack.us/i/moxjet.jpg/
http://img696.imageshack.us/i/moxemeraldl.jpg/

[Tiki Walker]

Bazaar dredge trumps ichorid dredge
workshop stax trumps white stax
vault/key trumps any other blue deck
Oath trumps survival
BUG Fish and Noble fish are probably the only legacy decks in vintage right now in terms of power

Which is Null Rod vs Time Vault vs lots of balls workshops vs dredge. We hardly think that qualifies as 'a ton of viable T1' decks, and to us it is just not fun to play decks that are made deliberately inconsistent, that looks more and more like highlander lists.

I took the liberty to fiddle around with magic set editor to show what it would look like. It would be foiled but I didn't have the foil layover. You can be the judge.
http://img705.imageshack.us/i/moxruby.jpg/
http://img692.imageshack.us/i/moxpearl.jpg/
http://img168.imageshack.us/i/moxjet.jpg/
http://img696.imageshack.us/i/moxemeraldl.jpg/

Thank you for posting some of the P9 examples. However, no offense, I still think that the new border, new art, and possibly in foil treatment for those P9 cards do not really stand up to the old, original P9.

[i_set_fire]

i do not think that price is a valid barrier to entering vintage.  i believe this because if a person decides to enter vintage they can use proxies/borrow cards until they can buy (or hopefully win) power.  while spending 3k on a set of p9 sucks, it is an investment.  the person is not spending 3k on gambling, at the bar, or a closet coke habit; they are buying things that they can use and then if they choose to stop playing, they can sell and reasonably expect to sell the cards for what they paid, if not a bit more.  if i ever have some financial emergency it is nice to know that i can sell my cards and get an expected amount. 

reprinting power/duals/high-dollar staples is just wrong in my opinion.  reprints will be to magic what 9/11 was to the stock market.  fear, panic, distrust, and massive unloading will ensue.  sure there will be some recovery over time since the old cards are preferred for already stated reasons, but never to the point that they are at now. 

my plea: instead of destroying my child's college fund because you think that a surplus of "affordable" p9 will boost vintage how about you create the demand before the supply. 

[BruiZar]

reprinting power/duals/high-dollar staples is just wrong in my opinion.  reprints will be to magic what 9/11 was to the stock market.  fear, panic, distrust, and massive unloading will ensue.  sure there will be some recovery over time since the old cards are preferred for already stated reasons, but never to the point that they are at now. 

my plea: instead of destroying my child's college fund because you think that a surplus of "affordable" p9 will boost vintage how about you create the demand before the supply. 

THANK YOU

[mike_bergeron]

This discussion is going way off the tracks now.  Magic Card College funds, 9/11...the only alternative left is to call the people on the side of reprinting Nazi's, enabling Godwin's law, and ending the thread. 

[xouman]

Magic shouldn't be an investment, but a game. Of course I agree that it is also a collectible game, and Beta cards won't be printed again. But just think about a very special comic or book, or a Van Gogh's paint. They are unique and not affordable by everyone, but there are substitutes: a comic/book can be reprinted so you don't have to pay 100.000 to read it, and you can have a good copy of Sunflowers at home. The difference is that part of you are suggesting not to create more cards, so the price will always increase (cards can be destroyed, lost, people can keep them even if they don't play) until people lose interest in Vintage and it disapears.

Without proxies Lotus could be worth 2000$ and far more if people were ready to pay it, but in fact very few people would pay that amount, so very few people would have interest in Vintage, and it would be very very marginal. In my local league 80-90% of the people play powered, and it is a non proxy league, but each month we have less and less people (80 people by 2008, kess than 60 now). Without proxies or "cheap" cards, no people will play vintage.

Are proxies all around a better solution than reprints? If proxies haven't dropped prices a lot, why do a controlled reprint would do?

[Troy_Costisick]

reprinting power/duals/high-dollar staples is just wrong in my opinion.  reprints will be to magic what 9/11 was to the stock market.  fear, panic, distrust, and massive unloading will ensue.  sure there will be some recovery over time since the old cards are preferred for already stated reasons, but never to the point that they are at now. 

Um, and when that panic passed the stock market set all new highs.  So what you're saying is we should hope for reprints so they'll raise the demand for that commodity?  I heartily agree.

[i_set_fire]

Without proxies Lotus could be worth 2000$ and far more if people were ready to pay it, but in fact very few people would pay that amount, so very few people would have interest in Vintage, and it would be very very marginal. In my local league 80-90% of the people play powered, and it is a non proxy league, but each month we have less and less people (80 people by 2008, kess than 60 now). Without proxies or "cheap" cards, no people will play vintage.

Are proxies all around a better solution than reprints? If proxies haven't dropped prices a lot, why do a controlled reprint would do?

if 80-90% already had power then there was no problem with acquiring power, the problem was with retention of players.  i guess i am failing to see the point of how reprinting power will improve T1 attendance? if people dont want to play now why would they with reprints?  there may be an initial upswing when ftv: power is released, but that will die off once people realize the massive learning curve and other time and money investment it will take to learn T1 and pickup other staples.   
my guess is proxies dont drop prices because they dont replace power.  if someone still wants an actual mox they will need to buy/trade/win it.  reprints will be an actual mox or whatever and thus reduce value of the real (a/b/u) power. 

[Smmenen]

Without proxies Lotus could be worth 2000$ and far more if people were ready to pay it, but in fact very few people would pay that amount, so very few people would have interest in Vintage, and it would be very very marginal. In my local league 80-90% of the people play powered, and it is a non proxy league, but each month we have less and less people (80 people by 2008, kess than 60 now). Without proxies or "cheap" cards, no people will play vintage.

Are proxies all around a better solution than reprints? If proxies haven't dropped prices a lot, why do a controlled reprint would do?

if 80-90% already had power then there was no problem with acquiring power, the problem was with retention of players.  i guess i am failing to see the point of how reprinting power will improve T1 attendance?

You really don't understand how it would improve attendance? 

[i_set_fire]

Without proxies Lotus could be worth 2000$ and far more if people were ready to pay it, but in fact very few people would pay that amount, so very few people would have interest in Vintage, and it would be very very marginal. In my local league 80-90% of the people play powered, and it is a non proxy league, but each month we have less and less people (80 people by 2008, kess than 60 now). Without proxies or "cheap" cards, no people will play vintage.

Are proxies all around a better solution than reprints? If proxies haven't dropped prices a lot, why do a controlled reprint would do?

if 80-90% already had power then there was no problem with acquiring power, the problem was with retention of players.  i guess i am failing to see the point of how reprinting power will improve T1 attendance?

You really don't understand how it would improve attendance? 

no i dont.  forgive my ignorance on the subject, but it seems to me like there would be an initial increase because people got new cards (similar to increase in FNM the two weeks after a release).  however, i  fail to see how it would help long-term attendance any more than proxies would.  i am willing to hear a good explanation. since i am new to modern T1 i am open to the possibility i am missing something. 

[Troy_Costisick]

Without proxies Lotus could be worth 2000$ and far more if people were ready to pay it, but in fact very few people would pay that amount, so very few people would have interest in Vintage, and it would be very very marginal. In my local league 80-90% of the people play powered, and it is a non proxy league, but each month we have less and less people (80 people by 2008, kess than 60 now). Without proxies or "cheap" cards, no people will play vintage.

Are proxies all around a better solution than reprints? If proxies haven't dropped prices a lot, why do a controlled reprint would do?

if 80-90% already had power then there was no problem with acquiring power, the problem was with retention of players.  i guess i am failing to see the point of how reprinting power will improve T1 attendance?

You really don't understand how it would improve attendance? 

no i dont.  forgive my ignorance on the subject, but it seems to me like there would be an initial increase because people got new cards (similar to increase in FNM the two weeks after a release).  however, i  fail to see how it would help long-term attendance any more than proxies would.  i am willing to hear a good explanation. since i am new to modern T1 i am open to the possibility i am missing something. 

It's not like Wizards will give 'em away for free just for showing up at a tournament somewhere.  Even reprinted, they'll cost hundreds of dollars.  Buying in will create a sense of ownership of the format just like it does now.  Leaving the format when some new printing or wacky B/R decision from the DCI comes down will be harder.  Proxies, on the other hand, are free and create only a minute sense of ownership in the format.  It's much easier to leave when a new printing/eratta/restriction changes the format.

[Onslaught]

my plea: instead of destroying my child's college fund

^Oh my _god

[xouman]

Without proxies Lotus could be worth 2000$ and far more if people were ready to pay it, but in fact very few people would pay that amount, so very few people would have interest in Vintage, and it would be very very marginal. In my local league 80-90% of the people play powered, and it is a non proxy league, but each month we have less and less people (80 people by 2008, kess than 60 now). Without proxies or "cheap" cards, no people will play vintage.

Are proxies all around a better solution than reprints? If proxies haven't dropped prices a lot, why do a controlled reprint would do?

if 80-90% already had power then there was no problem with acquiring power, the problem was with retention of players.  i guess i am failing to see the point of how reprinting power will improve T1 attendance?

You really don't understand how it would improve attendance? 

no i dont.  forgive my ignorance on the subject, but it seems to me like there would be an initial increase because people got new cards (similar to increase in FNM the two weeks after a release).  however, i  fail to see how it would help long-term attendance any more than proxies would.  i am willing to hear a good explanation. since i am new to modern T1 i am open to the possibility i am missing something. 

In my local league the powered ratio was 90% last time, but there was a time when only 70% of people were powered. Random decks could achieve ok, and there were 2 "best unpowered deck" prizes. But as people bought their packs, non regular players were losing more and more, having worse decks, and lots haven't played again. Besides, if new players have to invest 3000$ in a bunch of cards, they won't start playing vintage.

today i met an old friend, and i told him i still play magic 14 years after we started playing (he has not played for more than 10 years). He told me that would be great to come to a tournament, but I can't advise him to come, since he lacks both the knowledge and the powerful cards. One less player for the league, and I know several ex-players in the same position :p

[honestabe]

Without proxies Lotus could be worth 2000$ and far more if people were ready to pay it, but in fact very few people would pay that amount, so very few people would have interest in Vintage, and it would be very very marginal. In my local league 80-90% of the people play powered, and it is a non proxy league, but each month we have less and less people (80 people by 2008, kess than 60 now). Without proxies or "cheap" cards, no people will play vintage.

Are proxies all around a better solution than reprints? If proxies haven't dropped prices a lot, why do a controlled reprint would do?

if 80-90% already had power then there was no problem with acquiring power, the problem was with retention of players.  i guess i am failing to see the point of how reprinting power will improve T1 attendance?

You really don't understand how it would improve attendance? 

no i dont.  forgive my ignorance on the subject, but it seems to me like there would be an initial increase because people got new cards (similar to increase in FNM the two weeks after a release).  however, i  fail to see how it would help long-term attendance any more than proxies would.  i am willing to hear a good explanation. since i am new to modern T1 i am open to the possibility i am missing something. 

In my local league the powered ratio was 90% last time, but there was a time when only 70% of people were powered. Random decks could achieve ok, and there were 2 "best unpowered deck" prizes. But as people bought their packs, non regular players were losing more and more, having worse decks, and lots haven't played again. Besides, if new players have to invest 3000$ in a bunch of cards, they won't start playing vintage.

today i met an old friend, and i told him i still play magic 14 years after we started playing (he has not played for more than 10 years). He told me that would be great to come to a tournament, but I can't advise him to come, since he lacks both the knowledge and the powerful cards. One less player for the league, and I know several ex-players in the same position :p

Of course you can advise him to come.  Magic is about fun, and just because a deck doesn't run shops, drain of duals doesn't mean it's not competitive.  Look at the Sullivan solution list from 2009 Champs.  ( http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=28707 )  It was able to top 8 champs without ancestral recall maindeck, and I'm willing to bet it would still run pretty smooth without power.

Plus, who says he has to be able to win to play?  Magic is about fun, and just going to a tournament for the first time is fun, regardless if you top 8, or get your ass whooped.  I mean, isn't that why we play magic?  And if your friend does have fun, he may decide to take it more seriously, and may want to buy more powerful cards.

We can't expect people that don't play vintage already to be willing to just go out and by power.  There needs to be an ample demand to warrent reprint, and I doubt your friend would ever play vintage if you told him "Sure you can play, but first you need to spend a few grand on it first"  People need to want to play before they will want to spend money for it

[TheShop]

I loved this article!

I have been wanting this for years:  allow those of us who want to play the game on the stack to keep a foot in the door without dedicating a lifetime's salary.   I nearly wet myself to see that sheet of beta. 

Great article....by the way- I would still pay extra to have a revised copy of power over a new template black bordered coy.

[Tiki Walker]

....Plus, who says he has to be able to win to play?  Magic is about fun, and just going to a tournament for the first time is fun, regardless if you top 8, or get your ass whooped.  I mean, isn't that why we play magic?  And if your friend does have fun, he may decide to take it more seriously, and may want to buy more powerful cards.

We can't expect people that don't play vintage already to be willing to just go out and buy power.  There needs to be an ample demand to warrant reprint, and I doubt your friend would ever play vintage if you told him "Sure you can play, but first you need to spend a few grand on it first"  People need to want to play before they will want to spend money for it

Exactly.

During our tiny pilot project, I came to the league with all sort of decks, my favorite to bring in was the Turboland. It might not stand real chances to win against fields full of competitive T1 lists copied from all around the world, but I liked to play with it anyway because it was very fun to play. Other occasions I wanted to play with Control Slaver, SS, DZNought, Dredge, Uba Stax, Zoo, 3-color Land Destruction, WGDx, etc. I wanted to also build and tried to play Miracle Grow, Flash, Gift, etc. on occasions, too. In essence, I liked T1 because it allowed me to play with all sort of decks that I wanted to play with my friends. I do not need to win all the time. What I do need is to have fun.

The definition of 'fun' is of course subjective, but it is nonetheless an important factor along with cost of commitment when deciding whether one wants to commit into certain hobbies, especially if those hobbies do cost a considerable amount of money as well as time.

[wox2]

As a person supporting reprinting power for many years I would like to say some things.

Magic community is growing, Legacy, Extended, Standard... In fact Legacy is attracting people - there are cards that's price is extremely high due to their playability and people that are interested in them. Now when Legacy tournaments are on the focus of some PRO players there is more and more people wanting Dreadnought, LED, Mox Diamond... I remember interview from GP Prague with Oliver Ruel saying one of the worst tournaments he played was Legacy at World's Championship 2007. According to czech interview : "Most of the people had troubles to get cards they needed so everyone played what he could...".

Legacy and Vintage are special because cards stays there. Some cards are stapples they. Amount of cards that are wanted is dependent on number of tournaments that are organised, played, supported. Legacy is supported a bit at the moment but I don't think it is killing Vintage. People are interested in Legacy and despite they have no cards they can top 8 Legacy GP's (like David Do Anh did).

Reprinting Power should be done due to a really good reason. That reason may be new look at Vintage - Vintage GP, PT once a time, more tournaments... I can't imagine anything else making Vintage attractive. Cards are and always will be weapons... What to do with valuable weapons that can't be used? I believe price of Alpha, Beta, Unlimited P9 could stay where it is if the market won't be flooded by swarms of new Lotuses and Moxes and people will have a reason to buy it.

My View is that P9 and other stapples may be reprinted (reprint may be reconsidered again) once a longer time period - if there will be needs of market then why not?

At the moment I am selling my power and other cards because I can't play Vintage and that was only format I liked at all.

[arctic79]

my plea: instead of destroying my child's college fund because you think that a surplus of "affordable" p9 will boost vintage how about you create the demand before the supply. 

I read this and thought to myself "WOW, Can I sell this guy some magic beans?"  Seriously, are you for real.  Either you need a new financial advisor or you have the biggest balls out there.  Have you already apoligized to your children that they will be going to McDonald's College of Microwavable Foods instead of Harvard (or where ever).

On the topic at hand, I really do hope they do some reprints to stimulate the community growth.  Card design really doesn't matter to me because a legal card is a legal card.