[Deck] Zherbus Control (Keeper 04)

[Zherbus]

The list:

4 [card]Flooded Strand [/card]
3 [card]Volcanic Island [/card]
3 [card]Tundra  [/card]
3 [card]Underground Sea [/card]
4 [card]Wasteland  [/card]
1 [card]Island  [/card]
1 [card]Strip Mine  [/card]
1 [card]Library of Alexandria [/card]

1 [card]Sol Ring  [/card]
1 [card]Black Lotus  [/card]
1 [card]Mox Jet  [/card]
1 [card]Mox Sapphire  [/card]
1 [card]Mox Ruby  [/card]
1 [card]Mox Pearl  [/card]
 
4 [card]Force of Will  [/card]
4 [card]Mana Drain  [/card]
4 [card]Brainstorm  [/card]
2 [card]Cunning Wish  [/card]
2 [card]Stifle [/card]

1 [card]Time Walk  [/card]
1 [card]Ancestral Recall  [/card]
1 [card]Fact or Fiction  [/card]
1 [card]Mystical Tutor  [/card]

1 [card]Demonic Tutor  [/card]
1 [card]Yawgmoths Will  [/card]
2 [card]Skeletal Scrying [/card]
1 [card]Mind Twist [/card]

2 [card]Swords to Plowshares  [/card]
1 [card]Fire/Ice  [/card]
1 [card]Balance  [/card]

3 [card]Decree of Justice  [/card]
2 [card]Gorilla Shaman  [/card]

SB: 3 [card]Red Elemental Blast  [/card]
SB: 2 [card]Deep Analysis  [/card]
SB: 1 [card]Swords to Plowshares  [/card]
SB: 2 [card]Coffin Purge [/card]
SB: 2 [card]Rack and Ruin  [/card]
SB: 1 [card]Disenchant  [/card]
SB: 1 [card]Vampiric Tutor  [/card]
SB: 2 [card]Damping Matrix [/card]
SB: 1 [card]Blue Elemental Blast [/card]

Recent changes:

I took out 2 Tormod's Crypt to run a pair of Deep Analysis. So far I haven't been all that impressed, but I'll keep on running it for a while.

I've also went 2-and-2 with Matrix and Purge. Purge is just so great against Dragon, that its worth another slot.

Maindeck, I decided on 3 Decree since it helps greatly in the control matchup as well as essentially being a free win condition.

[Womprax]

Our Keeper build played 2 Fire/Ice and 3 Decree of Justice and aggro was far from a good matchup, so how do you beat TnT / Madness or Pillar Sligh?

In Dülmen we played a sideboard Humility and I REALLY loved it.

For the WW mana cost we removed a Volcanic Island for a City of Brass.
Exalted Angel in the SB helps a lot, too.

And what about adding Dust Bowl for Wasteland #4?

[Zherbus]

I really haven't had that much trouble against TnT, especially with Rack and Ruins and a high amount of spot removal. I fear Blood Moon, but I'm confident in any game I play where I stop Survival and Welders.

I think it's an entirely winnable matchup, but we also have very little in New England. If I were to expect more of it, then I might go back to the Humility thing I tried way back when, but more likely than not, I would just use more standard disenchants and cream them like I always did. More to that point, I would also want to drop the Stifles for a Maindeck Damping Matrix, which is an entirely different base build that I have been tinkering with on the side.

In summary Womprax, I can still beat TnT but if I were forced to face it more, I would make corrective changes.

EDIT:

I do want to add a Dustbowl in light of recent Landstill uprisings, but Wasteland is much better, so it can't be that. The basic Island is far too important, so that's out. All the colored mana is too crucial, so I can't do that either. It's down to cutting LoA or a non-land card...both options are far less than sexy.

[kirdape3]

You can't cut LoA in a deck this bereft of actual card drawing.  As it is I'd assume use something better than Skeletal Scrying (like Accumulated Knowledge or even perhaps Scrying Glass or Isochron Scepter) because I would not feel comfortable playing this deck in a control mirror without the ability to really outdraw someone.

[Zherbus]

That goes back to the debate with Skeletal Scrying vs AK. Scrying is extremely strong, moreso than most people give it credit for. In a deck where each slot is crucial, I wouldn't dream of switching engines especially after the testing I've done with both.

Here is my findings/reasoning:

1) AK requires it to be a 4 of, which likely means cutting removal.

2) Scrying draws typically anywhere from 3-5, which is far from weak.

3) Scrying can't be hit by standard anti-Control cards like REB and Misdirection.

[kirdape3]

AK does require a 4-of, which is true.

Scrying however requires 4-6 mana to draw those cards, which while not being REB-able (both can't be Misdirected) leaves you less likely to be able to actually resolve it against a determined control opponent, especially one that's already had his drawing engine established.

I don't know, if you can make it work then good beats.  Otherwise, I'm sticking with AKs.

[PsychoCid]

The AK engine is powerful and has a good place in a handful of decks for type 1, but I just don't think good ol' Keeper is one of them.  They're slow in that the first one-two suck.  If you Intuition for them, you're not spending any less than you would have on a good Scrying (which, as has already been pointed out, won't be REB'd)--just spending more slots.  With or without Intuition, it's a clunky engine.

As magic has evolved, Keeper has long wanted to be one of the super-consistent decks.  We're finally pretty much there.  How many non-restricted one-ofs are we running? 1? A lone Fire-Ice. How many big, bad, sometimes useless finishers are we running? Zero! Trenches always felt just a bit better than mediocre to me, but Decree is just great.  Two and two Shaman leaves a person feeling well protected and still well able to kill.

Zherbus hit the nail on the head about Dust Bowl--It just feels so good to drop a Waste and pop it to kill something dangerous without any other expenditure of resources.

[Saucemaster]

The AK engine is powerful and has a good place in a handful of decks for type 1, but I just don't think good ol' Keeper is one of them. They're slow in that the first one-two suck. If you Intuition for them, you're not spending any less than you would have on a good Scrying (which, as has already been pointed out, won't be REB'd)--just spending more slots. With or without Intuition, it's a clunky engine.

I agree with Cid, and in response to the inevitable question as to why AK is great in Tog but not as good in Keeper:

1)  As Cid mentioned, without Intuition or something like Scepter (let's not get into that yet), the first AK in particular is horrible.

2)  Therefore, you'll need to run at least one Intuition (or Scepters, but let's not get into that yet ) to make the AKs worthwhile, meaning that instead of your two Scryings, you're running 5 slots.  In terms of the amount of space you're losing this way, this is comparable to cutting an entire color.  Regardless of the "number of slots" issue, there is almost nothing worth Intuitioning for in Keeper besides AK.  A number of MeanDeck players tested a Keeper with an Intuition and AKs and even those who liked the AKs were annoyed by the Intuition, IIRC.  It's just useless unless you're grabbing AK.

3)  Why is it so good in Tog, then?  Because the fundamental problem with all card-drawing is that it cedes tempo in exchange for card advantage.  In Type 1 this can be *incredibly* deadly.  Tempo is God in this format.  Now, while Tog may in effect give up a turn or two to Intuition for AKs and cast one or two of them, it gains back all that tempo in spades as soon as it Berserks a Tog.  As soon as Tog enters the red zone, your opponent pays you for the tempo you lent him, with interest.  Keeper has no such mechanism to regain lost tempo, and so would rather delay its card-drawing until later in the game, where the fact that Scrying uses up fewer slots and can potentially be a huge bomb gives it the nod over AK.

That, anyway, is my analysis.  It's worth noting that some very good players and deckbuilders still disagree, so it's not a cut-and-dry decision.  This also doesn't address the problem of AKs in mirrors, but I think most of us are aware of that issue.

[Zherbus]

I'll sum it up more as that Keeper is controlling, hence its need for controlling cards. Tog isn't control, it's a combo deck with counterspells - it just has no need to get rid of threats if its own is the badest.

[Toad]

I've been using a single Dust Bowl in my Keeper build about 6 months ago, for testing purpose. Most of the time, It was only great when the mana denial strategy worked perfectly earlier in the game, which means I was probably on my way winning. Dust Bowl is obviously great in the Landstill matchup if you can play around Tefeiri's Responses, but sometimes It's just another expensive Wasteland. In Control mirrors, your opponent will sometimes go "Library of Alexandria, go", and here you don't really want to blow a Lotus or to wait 3 turns before you can kill it. As Zherbus said, I don't see Dust Bowl as a Wasteland remplacement, but more as a backup for the 4 Wastelands. This means I would be forced to cut another spell to fit it in, and I value it lower than any other card in the deck, even a Brainstorm.

I don't really like the 2 Decree of Justice 0 Goblin Trenches (or whatever else) configuration. I've tested Zherbus build a lot, and sometimes I found 2 Decrees to be too few, especially if you are forced to cycle one in early game. Decree of Justice is awesome because almost uncounterable, but it's not Duress proof and has a kinda bad synergy with Yawgmoth's Will. Sometimes I want to drop a win condition on the board (Trenches) and let it sit here until I really want to use it. A turn 3 Trenches is often game against most non-TNT aggro decks because they can't deal with a continuous flow of tokens. My build is Zherbus's exact copy with only 2 Cunning Wishes and  1 Goblin Trenches so far. Quite surprisingly I'm also considering going back to a single ol' Morphling, because TNT and Madness variants are more and more played here in Europe.

This Keeper build is one of the strongest I have ever played. It's versatile and powerful.

[Hyperion]

I don't mean to jump in on and hijack a discussion on a subject I know relatively little about, given that I don't regularly play Keeper...but I would think that if your mana base can afford it, that Exalted Angel would be a good kill against Madness and TNT. I'm assuming it's already been considered but thought it would be worth presenting a different perspective.

Exalted Angel is almost certainly the kill I would fear most coming down on the other side of the board (other than a decree of 3+ Angel tokens) and is very easy to Drain into against Madness and TNT because of the large amount of huge Drain sinks. It would be harder to resolve against TNT because it typically runs Strips and Blood Moon, but should be a lot easier against Madness. On the flip side, you would have to play it a little more cautiously against Madness because of the threat of a morphed Angel being hit by Fiery Temper, but I often side out a couple Tempers against Keeper anyway and it will catch the Madness builds without red for removal (i.e. Oshawa Stompy) completely with their pants down. And since you can afford to play it morphed in that matchup without having to worry about it being killed, it seems like a wortwhile consideration if the metagame calls for it. I think Morphling would hardly phase (non-Oshawa) Madness and TNT decks.

[Matt]

If you're looking to play some Exalted Angels, wouldn't it be a good idea to up to 4 Tundra?

[Nameless]

I'll sum it up more as that Keeper is controlling, hence its need for controlling cards. Tog isn't control, it's a combo deck with counterspells - it just has no need to get rid of threats if its own is the badest.

Well, I think you summed that up perfectly.

This is exactly the difference between aggro-control and control.  Basically, when I think of a Vintage Control deck at all, I'm thinking about a deck that not only tries to control the game itself, but that has at least 1 way to deal with any possible card they would come up against, no matter how far the reach.

For example, I can look at this list and see several ways one 'could' deal with a Blood Moon, a 'Tog, or even Dragon.dec, now how likely that answer is available is another question, but the point is you aren't shut down completely because of it.  You have at least some handle the situation.

I'd go so far as to say his Keeper is a fine build then if for no other reason then the fact that it can work in any metagame because he has one way or another to deal with various situations.

[PsychoCid]

Thank you, Nameless, for repeating something that for some reason must be repeated on every Keeper thread to ever exist--it's simply a law of nature that Keeper must continuously be redefined as 'the deck that can handle anything.'

I think it's safe to say 2 Decree versus a Decree and a Trenches isn't something that can be proven a worthwhile argument unless someone brings up previously unmentioned or nontraditionally thought of information.  Instinct tells me Morphling should be too clunky for Keeper no matter what the case, but does anyone have anything to say in his defense aside from 'He's better, against fast fat, than a handful of 1/1s'?

Aside from what I've mentioned, I'm curious to know if anybody else has any more issues to bring up about other aspects of the deck.

[Nameless]

Thank you, Nameless, for repeating something that for some reason must be repeated on every Keeper thread to ever exist--it's simply a law of nature that Keeper must continuously be redefined as 'the deck that can handle anything.'

Funny thing here, see there's a reason it has to be said, as evident in this very thread...  People forget it each and every damn time, so to save time on this maybe we can all agree to just add that as a footnote to every decklist or thread we start about Keeper, and be done with it.  

[Matt]

Well, if your metagame is such that The Abyss and/or Moat are still strong maindeck choices, then Morphling gets the nod over either Trenches or Decree.

[Zherbus]

I say that if Moat and Abyss are strong, then Humility should be strong as well. If you run Humility, then you can certainly still get away with running Trenches and/or Decree.

[Eastman]

Humility is stronger than moat and abyss, shutting down dragon, welder, and many others that the two bullets from legends cannot.

[Zherbus]

Also, take note that Carl played 3 Decree and 2 Wish at Waterbury which was from my last updated list sent out to Team Meandeck. The 3 Decree help against control mainly, but it's always at least a free critter kill spell against aggro, and serves to shorten the window of opportunity against lock decks like Slaver.

The initial list in this thread has been updated.

[MaxxMatt]

Last night I played a bit ( maybe 10 games.. ) a control mirror of Your Build ( piloted by me ) and a similar build ( piloted by my teammate Siral )which have a bit of emphasis and simpathy for Scepters.

Take you build and do these changes:

-2 Stiffle
-2 StP
-1 Decree
+1 F/I
+2 Scepters
+2 Impulses

all the other cards are the same. no other changes.

These are the results ( I referred to them because I was sure on the little impact of a Scepter and his drawback 2 card for 1... )

We split stack of games won by each other ( I mean I won 3, he won 3, I won 2, he won 2 and so on... ), so the lucky of beginning first and being able to use the initial 7 cards before the oppoent, seemed not so crucial.

I won games during which i could be able to block his Scepters
He won games with resolved Scepters on board.

What do you think?

It is time to build and play some sort of "metagamed" keeper with Damping Matrix Maindeck as we needed to maindeck CotV to wreck Long.dec some days ago?

What do you think of a build with your own structure but with these changes?

-2StP ( or your preferred mix of removals... )
+2 Damping Matrix
-1 Decree
+1 Cunning Wish ( maybe this change is not needed... )

( Removals would go in Side because you have more space maindeckking the Matrixs)

I proposed this change ( ooooo... What a Change.. I can feel satisfied..  I can claim about this as a "MaxxMatt'sKeeppeerr ) because my specific meta is:

Atogs
Welders& Co.
Mongrels& Co.
Laquatus& SliverQueen
Jars&Kegs& Scepters
Wretched& Specters& Nantukos
Lackeys& his Army

I noticed the swap of Crypts for D.A. .
Are enough for you, Stiffles and StP, to stop a Dragon deck? In my experience not so consistently. Knowing about the opponent's Stiffles, Crypts have losen a bit of their impact on the game, but I think that the slowing of the game that they can produce is crucial to win yet.

How consistently you mulligan with a 3 Decree build?

My 2 cents

[Zherbus]

Take you build and do these changes:

-2 Stiffle
-2 StP
-1 Decree
+1 F/I
+2 Scepters
+2 Impulses

I really think that's mostly your own build. It differs enough that I can't even compare notes with it.

[DavidHernandez]

Slap me if i shouldn't put a deck list here...but here is my most recent build:

4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
3 Cunning Wish
1 Misdirection
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Braingeyser
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Stifle

1 Morphling
21

3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Disenchant
1 Moat
1 Balance
6

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mind Twist
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 The Abyss
5

1 Platinum Angel
1 Mind’s Eye
2

1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring

4 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
4 Tundra
2 Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 City of Brass
1 Strip Mine
1 Wasteland
1 Library of Alexandria

Sideboard:
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Fire/Ice
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Coffin Purge
1 Stifle
1 Disenchant
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 COP: Red
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Counterspell
1 Misdirection
2 Damping Matrix

I wanted more of the Old School "The Deck" stuff in it, thus the inclusion of The Abyss and Moat.  It also means that the only cards that will ever come in from the sideboard are the Damping Matrix', Tormod's, and the COP: Red. Everything else is a Wish target.

I also wanted to keep the idea of running a Jayemdae Tome-like card, and tried the Mind's Eye.  It's great.  Platinum Angel is the card i want to have as a "signature", but this is the only deck i've run so far that allows it (except maybe for some TnT i've been testing).

Zherb: I think in your build you can drop one Scrying for the Dustbowl.  I know the Scrying ROCKS, but you would still have one in the main...

Our Meta's are different.  I'm only posting my list to give another viewpoint of what might be done.

dave.

[Zherbus]

What kind of metagame is that for?

I really think your focus should be adapting to the newer lists, and less about nostalgia. You list looks more like 'lets play 'Keeper' and have some fun', than lets tweak this machine to beat the decks to beat.

Skeletal Scrying is not a slot that is up for debate in my build. Dustbowl has been a consideration, but not for a potent card draw spell.

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

It is time to build and play some sort of "metagamed" keeper with Damping Matrix Maindeck as we needed to maindeck CotV to wreck Long.dec some days ago?

You might be interested in our Team CAB version of MatrixKeeper (called Enter The Matrix ) that was built exactly because of us expecting a meta filled to the max with ScepterKeeper. Just look at the placed 7th and 8th placed decks of januarys Dülmen here.



Oh, btw, having more Decrees is king against control. Nice to see you agree with Team CAB there.
Now just get around to actually finding room for Dust Bowl. It just ownz so much sometimes. I'd drop LoA for it in a minute, there are just to many opposing Wastelands and to few carddrawers to get consistently back to 7 for LoA to still win as much as it did before. My poor LoA

[BR]

@Dave: Does your meta have lack of nonbasics, or have you just not liked the full 5 wastes. Also, have you thought of moving Stroke to the SB as a wish target? And maybe moving either moat or abyss to the SB infavor of some MD duress. Just my ideas... Minds eye sounds cool for casual games, I like the card.

[Zherbus]

RE: Maindeck Matrix

It's definetly a good idea, just not all the time. I hate using this catch-phrase as it's often misused - but it's definetly a metagame issue. Scepter.dec appears to be dying down (though I'll find out for sure next tournament I attend), so that's one less major player to hedge against.

RE: Dust Bowl

Like I've said, I'd love to have it but I'd love to have everything else I'm running in the deck as well. The closest option is LoA, but it's too much of a key card in the Tog matchup.

[DavidHernandez]

@BR:
Since this thread is for discussing Zherbus' list, i won't get into it here, especially since my build is more "nostalgic" (as Zherbus pointed out--meaning that i took Weissman's 1995 build and started tweaking, while trying to keep the original feel).  Looking back at my post, i realize i should have put this in a thread about "the evolution of The Deck", rather than here.

@Zherbus:
Here, I see a lot of non-flying, non-artifact, non-morphling creatures (Sligh, Sui, B/g Void, White) and some Scepter decks, (IsoKeeper, Scepter-Hulk).  Pure Keeper is rare...in fact only Shawn (MageOfDreams) may have run a pure build (and even then i'm not so sure). Only one player uses a deck (GayR) that runs MisD, making some of my card choices stronger out here.

In testing, my build is very strong against the decks i expect to see here. As such, it is far more competitive than i think you give it credit for. But, like i said earlier, this is the wrong thread for my list, so...

Regarding Scrying, i understand that the drawing is powerful, but you still could put it in the SB as a wish target.  The only other cards i could see you considering are 1 Shaman, Fire/Ice, or 1 Stifle.

Honestly, i don't think you have room for the Dustbowl, because everything else is so important.

--dave.

[CrazyCarl]

From my experiance in Waterbury, Mind Twist is the sucks.  I could see that being cut for a Dust Bowl.

3 Decrees are the sexxay, even more sexy than Derek's mom.  And that's damn sexy.

And I still hate Cunning Wish, but there were times I sorta wanted a 3rd, but only to make things easier, so I didn't really need them.  <3 being lazy.

I plan on writing an article about Keeper soon, so keep an eye out...

[Zherbus]

Yeah, I'll have to differ on Mind Twist with Carl

It's the single best card to use against Food Chain Goblins, and it's a game breaking card against 'I-run-no-Misdirections' Tog decks.

[bebe]

Mind Twist rapes FCG and other aggro decks which, BTW, is on the rise.
I've noticed that the control decks in our area are packing Dustbowl ( for those Bazaar decks), Mind Twist and an extra Fire/Ice.
Why has every Keeper deck lost Zuran Orb these days? Is the aggro match up that easy that it simply is excess baggage?