Single Card Discussion (Emrakul, The Aeons Torn)

[Bunbury]

Upon entering play Iona will immediately stop TPS or ANT from going off, will stop untargeted removal, will stop people from assembling Vault/Key (unless they have both pieces in hand), stops mono-colored decks from doing anything at all, etc.  This Eldrazi has no haste and doesn't disrupt anything until the next turn.  People are winning on their second Oath activation as it is, this guy is at least turn slower than Iona + Vault/Key or even Double Dragon.  I don't see any point to playing him in Oath, if I want a slow Robot I'd rather have one that can be Tinkered, if I want disruption Iona is better and does it immediatly (even the Elephant does it immediately), if I want to win more quickly Iona + Vault/Key or Double Dragon are better.

Iona is better yes, but this guy has to take 2nd. Run 1x Him + 1 x Iona and  Dragon's Breath and you'll win. Iona is too slow on her own and the combo-ish versions are too vulnerabel to GY hate. While this guy doesn;t kill with one swing, he basically does. There are very few gamestates that woudl be recoverable once he swings once.

To me it looks like this:

Iona
1 - Oath into her
They're most likely locked out for the next turn
2 - Win

Double Dragon / Hellkites + Akroma, etc
1 - Dragon 1 swings and hits
They have free reign for this turn
2 - Win

Eldrazi
1 - Oath out Eldrazi, nothing happens
They have free reign for this turn
2 - Swing with Eldrazi
Their board is wiped
3 - win

You could run the Eldrazi plus another creature, but if you don't get the Eldrazi first he sucks.  You could run him with Iona but then they still get free reign for a turn if he comes out first.  If he comes out second then any other Oath creature would have killed them just as quickly.

I think Doomsday is spot-on here. He's huge and splashy and I can't wait to put him in my EDH deck, but he's the most conditional on passing the turn. The other two dudes make at least some impact the turn they come in. Iona probably locks them off most spells, Dragon does some damage (And if they're in a bad spot with Bob and/or Mana Crypt, may kill them, although it's unlikely so we'll ignore that), but the Eldrazi, while having the most devastating single attack, does not do anything but look scary his first turn around

[2nd_lawl]

Delicious Legendary Oath creatures.

Omnomnom

[Oath of Happy]

I think Karakas might be worth a SB slot.  Now that Oath isn't using wastelands, the only thing that stops Karakas is needle.  It doesn't hit Hellkite, but it does it Iona.  It's also useful as an extra mana source vs mana denial decks like fish and Workshops, and as a bonus it can hit Karn, and Thada Adel, Acquisitor.

Aside from that, I think the best removal for this guy would be Aether SpellBomb

[TopSecret]

This guy is better than Elephants and/or Iona in a number of gamestates.
If you can hit Dragon's Breath when Oathing, this guy is better than Elephants and/or Iona in almost every situation that doesn't involve stuff like Edict, Ensnaring Bridge, or Maze of Ith/Karakas.

A NEW CHALLENGER APPEARS

Also, playing this guy with Channel is the best ever.

[Oath of Happy]

Maze of ith doesn't do much good since you still have to sacrafice 6 permanents

[Troy_Costisick]

To me it looks like this:

Iona
1 - Oath into her
They're most likely locked out for the next turn
2 - Win

Double Dragon / Hellkites + Akroma, etc
1 - Dragon 1 swings and hits
They have free reign for this turn
2 - Win

Eldrazi
1 - Oath out Eldrazi, nothing happens
They have free reign for this turn
2 - Swing with Eldrazi
Their board is wiped
3 - win

To me it looks like this:

Eldrazi:

1- Oath into Eldrazi w/ Dragon's Breath in the GY. Win.
Opponent never gets another turn.  Or, if he does he's down to less than 5 life with next to no permanents in play.

Besides, how are you getting so much damage out of Iona on turn 2?

[AmbivalentDuck]

Wow, stock in Aether Spellbomb and Seal of Removal just exploded in value...

[Doomsday]

To me it looks like this:

Iona
1 - Oath into her
They're most likely locked out for the next turn
2 - Win

Double Dragon / Hellkites + Akroma, etc
1 - Dragon 1 swings and hits
They have free reign for this turn
2 - Win

Eldrazi
1 - Oath out Eldrazi, nothing happens
They have free reign for this turn
2 - Swing with Eldrazi
Their board is wiped
3 - win

To me it looks like this:

Eldrazi:

1- Oath into Eldrazi w/ Dragon's Breath in the GY. Win.
Opponent never gets another turn.  Or, if he does he's down to less than 5 life with next to no permanents in play.

Besides, how are you getting so much damage out of Iona on turn 2?

You aren't getting damage from Iona, you're cutting off their counters while you get infinite turns.  If you want to use slots on mutliple copies (you need more than one to count on milling it before you hit your dude) of an otherwise completely dead card that doesn't pitch to FoW then the Eldrazi guy gets better but your deck gets worse (IMO).  

[theLastGnu]

This is clearly better than Iona, Once this hits play your opponent scoops, think about it, what can likely stop this card in vintage:

STP or any spot removal: Stopped by Protection to Colored Spells
Diabloic Edict: Gets returned to the deck and would be oathed up again
Blocked by Vampire Nighthawk (or any card with deathtouch): Possible, unless you can sacrifce 6 permanents and still keep this alive afterwards, which is highly unlikely in vintage, and even if you get to kill this card, your opponent just Oath's it again.
Sower of Temptation: Possible choice to stop this, but highly unlikely since the opponent would most likely pack counters or Stifle
Maze of Ith: Possible, but currently not used in vintage

I have exhausted my options for stopping this and have no possible answer to it unless ther would be one in RoE.

Edit: Although I am not that familiar with other answers in Vintage, maybe you can name a few so that I can get a playset of those

In regards to Maze of Ith, it's FAR from capable of stopping this guy, Annihilator 6 still triggers.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

So either this is at best equally fast to double dragons (because Iona wins 90%+ of the time on the first Oath the combo is just gravy the next turn) or you have to eat up deck space running multiple dead Dragon's Breaths. I fail to see how either option solves the biggest problem Oath has: resolving, protecting, and triggering Oath. This guy isn't better than the current Oath finishers so it gets a thumbs down. Unless an Eldrazi with haste is coming off the assembly line I'm pretty sure we can leave these guys in the "danger of cool things" section.

[AmbivalentDuck]

So either this is at best equally fast to double dragons

Destroying 6 permanents is pretty much lethal vs most decks.  The fact that you don't kill until the second turn is pretty irrelevant: their board is empty.

The objection based on Dragon's Breath is valid: the odds of haste are as follows (for 1 Eldrazi)
0 DB -> 0%
1 DB ->50%
2 DB -> 75%
3 DB -> 87.5%
4 DB -> 93.75%

You'd run at least 2 main...and that's EWWW.  The card is totally dead when you're not Oathing.

[AmbivalentDuck]

I'm also a bit amazed that nobody has mentioned something like a Sneak Attack/Reanimator hybrid.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

So either this is at best equally fast to double dragons

Destroying 6 permanents is pretty much lethal vs most decks.  The fact that you don't kill until the second turn is pretty irrelevant: their board is empty.

The objection based on Dragon's Breath is valid: the odds of haste are as follows (for 1 Eldrazi)
0 DB -> 0%
1 DB ->50%
2 DB -> 75%
3 DB -> 87.5%
4 DB -> 93.75%

You'd run at least 2 main...and that's EWWW.  The card is totally dead when you're not Oathing.

Well if we're including "pretty much lethal" then Iona is a whole turn faster (or just as fast without eating up 2-4 deck slots) while not being a complete joke against combo decks.

I'm also a bit amazed that nobody has mentioned something like a Sneak Attack/Reanimator hybrid.

What is this Legacy lol?

[Rico Suave]

I like how this card is carefully worded to be hasted if cast from hand, but no haste if put into play via another method.  I doubt they will print one of these Eldrazi guys with haste and annihilator of a decent amount, but that is what makes the difference between a card that works in Oath and one that does not.

I don't think anybody has a problem winning with Oath if the player gets to Oath twice in succession.  The problem with Oath is Oathing once and having it be enough to win the game.  This guy does not perform this by himself.

The other side would be using Dragon Breath or something similar, but unfortunately that just means you're running a bunch of really conditional cards that don't do much unless you're Oathing (and Oathing is already winning).  This would also set another set of really constrictive rules to your deck design that would hurt a lot, such as not being able to abuse Tinker.

[AmbivalentDuck]

I'm also a bit amazed that nobody has mentioned something like a Sneak Attack/Reanimator hybrid.

What is this Legacy lol?

Cute comment, but the reality is that a resolved Sneak Attack + this guy or Protean Hulk is a game win.  You can't dismiss deck engines because they were terrible.  Goblins was terrible and then Max and I rebuilt it to not need to resolve 4cc creatures then turn them sideways repeatedly.

[Neonico]

Don't know if this have been mentionned or not, but annilhator makes maze of ith unable to deal with this.

[Troy_Costisick]

So either this is at best equally fast to double dragons (because Iona wins 90%+ of the time on the first Oath the combo is just gravy the next turn) or you have to eat up deck space running multiple dead Dragon's Breaths. I fail to see how either option solves the biggest problem Oath has: resolving, protecting, and triggering Oath.

None of the Oath creatures protect Oath until they're in play.  With this guy, you don't need to protect Oath.  He blows up their board and is imune to almost every removal spell that gets played. 

You'd run at least 2 main...and that's EWWW.  The card is totally dead when you're not Oathing.

That is ewww.  But it wins immediately, which isn't.  No waiting.  So that's the trade off.  That's where actual tournament play will tell us if it's worth it.  It's the deliciously tough choice that has to be made.    Right now, it's just talk.

[bluemage55]

Edit: Nevermind, missed some card text.

[paladin3056]

Don't know if this have been mentionned or not, but annilhator makes maze of ith unable to deal with this.

Oh yeah, i should remember to read the card again. The creature gets to attack first before Maze of Ith triggers.

Anyway, Iona AND Emroku are both optimal plays, who cares if Iona or Emroku are better than the other, why not play both, there is no downside in playing both, you just have better finishers now that you have 2 possible end gamers. Iona that affects the game immediately upon play, and Emroku which would win you the game upon attacking.

I think Karakas would now quadruple in value because of its capability to stop oath, i should look for a playset of it right now. That is if it is possible to find *grins*

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

I'm also a bit amazed that nobody has mentioned something like a Sneak Attack/Reanimator hybrid.

What is this Legacy lol?

Cute comment, but the reality is that a resolved Sneak Attack + this guy or Protean Hulk is a game win.  You can't dismiss deck engines because they were terrible.  Goblins was terrible and then Max and I rebuilt it to not need to resolve 4cc creatures then turn them sideways repeatedly.

I'm pretty sure there is a big difference between Goblins (that had no solid disruption and finally got 3 mana jester's cappernaught printed) and Sneak Attack (a card that costs 5 mana and a dozen dead deck slots to be a bad 2-card combo). Its a cool combo that'll end games but it isn't fast enough, yet eats up too many deck slots to be well-protected. It definitely makes a cool casual deck or maybe a Legacy toy but it wouldn't even be tiered in Vintage.

So either this is at best equally fast to double dragons (because Iona wins 90%+ of the time on the first Oath the combo is just gravy the next turn) or you have to eat up deck space running multiple dead Dragon's Breaths. I fail to see how either option solves the biggest problem Oath has: resolving, protecting, and triggering Oath.

None of the Oath creatures protect Oath until they're in play.  With this guy, you don't need to protect Oath.  He blows up their board and is imune to almost every removal spell that gets played.  

Wait what? You don't need Oath to get this guy into play with Oath? I'm confused because it seems that you're implying this card has some sort of amazing effect while it is sitting in your deck that protects Oath or that he has some amazing alternate cost that means you don't need to protect Oath. If you're running it by itself Iona is a better singleton Oath target and if you're running dragon's breath you're cutting into deck slots that could be better spent on protection for Oath. Now I'm not saying running this thing+Dragon's Breath is going to destroy your deck, but you're going to notice it is suboptimal once the whole "holy shit I'm swinging with this huge ass dude" novelty wears off. Now if they print a naturally hasted Annihilator then we'll have us a kickass new Oath toy.

[zeus-online]

Anyway, regardless of what this guy does when he comes into play, they still need to resolve oath. Their main weakness is still exactly the same. I actually feel like oath hasn't really gotten all that much better since the double angel builds (or akroma/spirit) since they still have to find and resolve their oath while also making sure that the opponent has a creature.

But for the record: I think i'd play Iona main and SB the eldrazi in against shops.

[BruiZar]

Actually, Stax can just duplicant your eldrazi and smack you in the face for 15.

[Troy_Costisick]

Actually, Stax can just duplicant your eldrazi and smack you in the face for 15.

That's the risk for any Oath creature except Progenitus.

[Diakonov]

So either this is at best equally fast to double dragons

Destroying 6 permanents is pretty much lethal vs most decks.  The fact that you don't kill until the second turn is pretty irrelevant: their board is empty.

The objection based on Dragon's Breath is valid: the odds of haste are as follows (for 1 Eldrazi)
0 DB -> 0%
1 DB ->50%
2 DB -> 75%
3 DB -> 87.5%
4 DB -> 93.75%

You'd run at least 2 main...and that's EWWW.  The card is totally dead when you're not Oathing.

Perhaps I'm doing the math wrong, but wouldn't it go:

0 DB -> 0%
1 DB ->50%
2 DB -> 67%
3 DB -> 75%
4 DB -> 80%

For example, if A = Dragon's Breath, and B = Eldrazi, for 2 DB the possibilities would be

AAB
ABA
BAA

and so forth with additional copies.  Which makes it even more awful.

[GUnit]

I made a mistake.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

Anyway, regardless of what this guy does when he comes into play, they still need to resolve oath. Their main weakness is still exactly the same. I actually feel like oath hasn't really gotten all that much better since the double angel builds (or akroma/spirit) since they still have to find and resolve their oath while also making sure that the opponent has a creature.

But for the record: I think i'd play Iona main and SB the eldrazi in against shops.

With 4x oath of druids and black tutors finding and resolving an oath was never a huge issue. It was extremely easy when you could run 4x tfk to find one of 6 cards with counter back up. Now a days the oath player relies mostly on ancestral recursion with mystical, regrowth, and yawgs will with 1x tfk, ponder+bs to find one of six cards. The inclusion of duress and spell pierce make resolving oath with double counter back up extremely easy. The major problem oath had was over extending to get oath on board and then opponent untaps and storms your face in the next 2 turns, because you ran out all your control. The lack of brainstorm takes storm combo out of the equation for the most part. Theoretically Tezz takes its place, but Iona literally cuts this window in half, the 15/15 doesn't really do this.

Unfortunately for the 15/15, all of the removal people were using to destroy Iona does double duty against this guy as well- karakas, edict.
Compared to progenitus and empyreal archangel, the 15/15 gets hit by sower and dupe (which people have mentioned), and spells that don’t get played often like spell bomb. However, he doesn’t get hit by perish, which finds its way into fish boards here and there when empyreal archangel was heavily played.
As for the dragon’s breath thing, three dead cards has been done in oath post restriction before ( 2x dude + blessing), and it worked out. These three don’t cycle like blessing, it can be managed. On the plus side, you don’t need blessing but put this dude back in your library, a compulsive research or tfk and you are good to go.
Simply put, would I bother testing this thing? Definitely, Yes.
Will it work? Probably not, but maybe.

[Yare]

Regarding Dragon Breath, the odds are slightly lower than the above in that it is possible that you'll draw one, making it impossible to flip with Oath. You also can't hardcast it, even though it costs a meager 1R, because this guy has protection from colored spells.

[Stormanimagus]

Regarding Dragon Breath, the odds are slightly lower than the above in that it is possible that you'll draw one, making it impossible to flip with Oath. You also can't hardcast it, even though it costs a meager 1R, because this guy has protection from colored spells.

I think you can actually because of the new wording for Auras. You play the Aura, and then it comes into play. Once it's in play you target Emrakul and, at this point you can because it is a permanent targeting him and no longer a spell. I'm pretty sure that's how it works, but might be misunderstanding Auras.

-Storm

[Yare]

Regarding Dragon Breath, the odds are slightly lower than the above in that it is possible that you'll draw one, making it impossible to flip with Oath. You also can't hardcast it, even though it costs a meager 1R, because this guy has protection from colored spells.

I think you can actually because of the new wording for Auras. You play the Aura, and then it comes into play. Once it's in play you target Emrakul and, at this point you can because it is a permanent targeting him and no longer a spell. I'm pretty sure that's how it works, but might be misunderstanding Auras.

-Storm

Auras target when cast.

113.1b Aura spells are always targeted. These are the only permanent spells with targets. An Aura’s target is specified by its enchant keyword ability (see rule 702.5, “Enchant”). The target(s) are chosen as the spell is cast; see rule 601.2c. An Aura permanent doesn’t target anything; only the spell is targeted. (An activated or triggered ability of an Aura permanent can also be targeted.)

[Killane]

Regarding Dragon Breath, the odds are slightly lower than the above in that it is possible that you'll draw one, making it impossible to flip with Oath. You also can't hardcast it, even though it costs a meager 1R, because this guy has protection from colored spells.

I think you can actually because of the new wording for Auras. You play the Aura, and then it comes into play. Once it's in play you target Emrakul and, at this point you can because it is a permanent targeting him and no longer a spell. I'm pretty sure that's how it works, but might be misunderstanding Auras.

-Storm

Auras target when cast.

113.1b Aura spells are always targeted. These are the only permanent spells with targets. An Aura’s target is specified by its enchant keyword ability (see rule 702.5, “Enchant”). The target(s) are chosen as the spell is cast; see rule 601.2c. An Aura permanent doesn’t target anything; only the spell is targeted. (An activated or triggered ability of an Aura permanent can also be targeted.)

The confusion here is with a spell like Oblivion Ring, which is not an Aura but creates an WTB trigger when cast that does the targeting, and an Aura, which in and of itself targets.