[Free Article] Playing in the MUD: Top 8

[voltron00x]

This week, I recap the March Blue Bell, where I teamed up with Karn and his robot minions to smash my way to a 5-1 record in the Swiss.  MUD's been much more popular in Europe over the past several years than in the United States, and Workshop decks in general have not been strong performers of late.  Is the tide starting to turn in favor of Karn, Lodestone Golem, and crew?

Game 1, in round 6, against Joe's Tezzeret with Jace, was one of my all-time favorite games of Magic, any format.

I also included Beaver's second-place deck from this tournament, which is a great showcase for Jace in Vintage, in case you missed it.

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/19045_The_Long_Winding_Road_Playing_in_the_MUD.html

[Shock Wave]

That was a ridiculous hand you lost to in the Top 8. Tough loss. Congrats on the T8, and thanks for the report.

One question:

Game 2: On the play again, I lead off with a Workshop into a Thorn of Amethyst, which resolves, and then a Chalice of the Void on 1. Tangle Wire follows, which lets me resolve Lodestone Golem, and this locks up the game.

Why did you play the Chalice for 1 as opposed to 0? If you play it for 0, it will take him two turns before he can resolve a 1cc spell, and 3 turns if you resolve another resistor. What advantage does playing it for 1 provide?

[Evenpence]

That was a ridiculous hand you lost to in the Top 8. Tough loss. Congrats on the T8, and thanks for the report.

One question:

Game 2: On the play again, I lead off with a Workshop into a Thorn of Amethyst, which resolves, and then a Chalice of the Void on 1. Tangle Wire follows, which lets me resolve Lodestone Golem, and this locks up the game.

Why did you play the Chalice for 1 as opposed to 0? If you play it for 0, it will take him two turns before he can resolve a 1cc spell, and 3 turns if you resolve another resistor. What advantage does playing it for 1 provide?

I think the Chalice of the Void play is his turn 2, as he didn't mention any acceleration other than Workshop.

[Shock Wave]

That was a ridiculous hand you lost to in the Top 8. Tough loss. Congrats on the T8, and thanks for the report.

One question:

Game 2: On the play again, I lead off with a Workshop into a Thorn of Amethyst, which resolves, and then a Chalice of the Void on 1. Tangle Wire follows, which lets me resolve Lodestone Golem, and this locks up the game.

Why did you play the Chalice for 1 as opposed to 0? If you play it for 0, it will take him two turns before he can resolve a 1cc spell, and 3 turns if you resolve another resistor. What advantage does playing it for 1 provide?

I think the Chalice of the Void play is his turn 2, as he didn't mention any acceleration other than Workshop.

Ok, but if you play it for 0 on turn 1 in combination with a Thorn, that guarantees that Oath cannot resolve until Turn 3 at best, and that's assuming you do not resolve another resistor, Tangle Wire, Wasteland ...

[voltron00x]

I think I did actually play it for 0.  I believe that's the play - Workshop, Thorn.  Thorn resolves, that guarantees Chalice on 0 resolves.  With the mana floating from Shop, pay 1 for Chalice 0.  The Thorn + Chalice combo locks out Spell Pierce or Nature's Claim on turn 1, so unless Brad has Force of Will, Lodestone resolves.  That locks out Spell Pierce and Claim again and lets Tangle Wire resolve, which locks up the game, more or less.

Maybe Brad remembers.  I can't figure out any line of play outside of this that makes sense.

[meadbert]

"Juggernaught is probably the weakest card in the deck."

True statement.  Here is the deal.  Lets say there is a bad card that is not quite good enough for type 1.  Then, suppose a similar, but better card is printed.  This new card is type 1 viable.  Should the original card see more or less play?  The answer is less.  Decks should not have been running Juggernaught before.  Now that Golem exists, any deck that might have considered running Juggernaught should be running Golem instead.

The only justification for running both is if they had some sort of synergy.  They only synergy I see is that Juggernaught is an artifact and thus unaffected by Golem, but this is true of all artifacts.  They compete at the same casting cost on the mana curve but Golem is just better.

Juggernaught asks to lose to in so many matchups.  It is about the worst play against Oath.  It is the worst play against storm.  Juggernaught is a double edged sword against Dredge where it basically acts as a sac outlet for Narcomoeba and Bloodghast.

The best explanation I have yet heard for running Juggs is that Golem made Shops more popular and Juggs is golden in the mirror, but to me this only justifies it as a possible sideboard option.

Karn, Silver Golem is WAY better.  It takes out moxen, hoses Dredge and does more damage faster.  Excepting Shop deck (with Welders to abuse Legendary rules) I would rather run even a 4th Karn in about every matchup than Juggernaught although I think you were correct to run 2 Karn.

[Rico Suave]

I think I did actually play it for 0.  I believe that's the play - Workshop, Thorn.  Thorn resolves, that guarantees Chalice on 0 resolves.  With the mana floating from Shop, pay 1 for Chalice 0.  The Thorn + Chalice combo locks out Spell Pierce or Nature's Claim on turn 1, so unless Brad has Force of Will, Lodestone resolves.  That locks out Spell Pierce and Claim again and lets Tangle Wire resolve, which locks up the game, more or less.

Maybe Brad remembers.  I can't figure out any line of play outside of this that makes sense.

What happened is my hand was Underground Sea, Mox, Mana Crypt, Black Lotus, Tezz, Force, blue card.  You led Thorn which I was OK with, and Chalice at 0 on the first turn, which I was not OK with but the Thorn prevented me from Forcing it.  A Wasteland on turn 2 locked me out completely.  

[voltron00x]

"Juggernaught is probably the weakest card in the deck."

True statement.  Here is the deal.  Lets say there is a bad card that is not quite good enough for type 1.  Then, suppose a similar, but better card is printed.  This new card is type 1 viable.  Should the original card see more or less play?  The answer is less.  Decks should not have been running Juggernaught before.  Now that Golem exists, any deck that might have considered running Juggernaught should be running Golem instead.

The only justification for running both is if they had some sort of synergy.  They only synergy I see is that Juggernaught is an artifact and thus unaffected by Golem, but this is true of all artifacts.  They compete at the same casting cost on the mana curve but Golem is just better.

Juggernaught asks to lose to in so many matchups.  It is about the worst play against Oath.  It is the worst play against storm.  Juggernaught is a double edged sword against Dredge where it basically acts as a sac outlet for Narcomoeba and Bloodghast.

The best explanation I have yet heard for running Juggs is that Golem made Shops more popular and Juggs is golden in the mirror, but to me this only justifies it as a possible sideboard option.

Karn, Silver Golem is WAY better.  It takes out moxen, hoses Dredge and does more damage faster.  Excepting Shop deck (with Welders to abuse Legendary rules) I would rather run even a 4th Karn in about every matchup than Juggernaught although I think you were correct to run 2 Karn.

But... nothing can stop the Juggernaut!

Not convinced?

Me either.

I wasn't unhappy with Juggs on the day, I just wasn't particularly thrilled with it either.  I think you're slightly underplaying its value.  There's a lot to be said about packing 7 or 8 5-power creatures in a deck like this.  One of my traditional issues with Stax is that opponents survive just long enough to fire off a Hurks or Rebuild, and untap and win.  With this many 5-power creatures, hopefully they never have a chance to reach that point, because they're dead.  The Dredge comment isn't inaccurate (it sucks there), but its rarely relevant since Juggernaut isn't really the reason why you scoop to Dredge game 1; unless they keep a Bazaar hand with no Dredgers and lose to Wasteland or mull to Oblivion, you're pretty likely to lose no matter what.

I wouldn't even say its the worst play against Storm, where you're throwing out as many resistors as you can and then hoping you can finish them off before they draw or tutor into whatever options they have to reset your board.  A Triskelion is probably worse than Juggernaut against Storm, although it is obviously better against Dredge. 

The appeal of Juggs is that he's easy to cast even with a number of Spheres in play, and helps you finish games quickly.  He's still the worst card in the deck, but that doesn't necessarily mean he needs to get cut from the deck.  By definition, every deck will have a worst card, unless its 60 basic lands (and there, if it has any Plains, those are the worst cards, just by virtue of being Plains in a Vintage deck).

In any case - the build I'm playing right now doesn't use Juggernaut.  I replaced them with Trisks and added additional Metalworkers to account for the fact that Trisks are generally harder to resolve.  Trisk is much better in the current meta and I made that swap all day in Blue Bell, so it makes sense.  Still, just because there's a "better" Juggernaut doesn't necessarily mean that you can't get value out of playing BOTH of them, together.

I agree on Karn, that guy is my new hero.  Card is basically the stone-blade of the deck.  I'm strongly considering playing 3 next time, even though in testing before Blue Bell I played two because I drew too many hands with 2 Karns.

[voltron00x]

Also interested in hearing opinions on my poll question.  Currently, with 49 votes in, "Keep" is in the lead by a 2:1 margin.

For reference, the hand on the draw is:  Strip Mine, Sol Ring, Crucible of Worlds, Crucible of Worlds, Lodestone Golem, Lodestone Golem, Thorn of Amethyst. 

I also already know my opponent is playing Spell Pierce.

[meadbert]

The vote should obviously be to mulligan and I am shocked so many people would keep.
Your hand is a perfect example of why Shop decks so badly need Workshop.  Your first option is to open with turn 1 Thorn and then hope to draw mana.  This opening cannot be considered better than your average hand of 6.  You have a 50% chance of doing nothing next turn and a 50% after that.  The geometric progression indicates an average of 2 turns of nothing.  Even with Thorn out you cannot double Time Walk your opponent.  It is even worse than that since if you rip another Resistor, while you could technically pay for it you might be locking yourself out more than your opponent.  You second plan is to play Sol Ring turn 1 and no Thorn.  Then hope to draw mana so you can play Crucible + activate Strip on turn 2.  If you do not draw mana then you can play Crucible off Strip Mine turn 2, for turn 3 Strip activation.
Waiting to disrupt till turn 3 in type 1 is suicide so that is  a no go and you still have less than 50% of top decking mana.

In my opinion this decision is not even close.  You throw back the hand.

EDIT:  I did not even get into the fact that they are (or at least should be) likely to counter the Sol Ring with either Spell Pierce or Force of Will.

[Stormanimagus]

"Juggernaught is probably the weakest card in the deck."

True statement.  Here is the deal.  Lets say there is a bad card that is not quite good enough for type 1.  Then, suppose a similar, but better card is printed.  This new card is type 1 viable.  Should the original card see more or less play?  The answer is less.  Decks should not have been running Juggernaught before.  Now that Golem exists, any deck that might have considered running Juggernaught should be running Golem instead.

The only justification for running both is if they had some sort of synergy.  They only synergy I see is that Juggernaught is an artifact and thus unaffected by Golem, but this is true of all artifacts.  They compete at the same casting cost on the mana curve but Golem is just better.

Juggernaught asks to lose to in so many matchups.  It is about the worst play against Oath.  It is the worst play against storm.  Juggernaught is a double edged sword against Dredge where it basically acts as a sac outlet for Narcomoeba and Bloodghast.

The best explanation I have yet heard for running Juggs is that Golem made Shops more popular and Juggs is golden in the mirror, but to me this only justifies it as a possible sideboard option.

Karn, Silver Golem is WAY better.  It takes out moxen, hoses Dredge and does more damage faster.  Excepting Shop deck (with Welders to abuse Legendary rules) I would rather run even a 4th Karn in about every matchup than Juggernaught although I think you were correct to run 2 Karn.

But... nothing can stop the Juggernaut!

Not convinced?

Me either.

I wasn't unhappy with Juggs on the day, I just wasn't particularly thrilled with it either.  I think you're slightly underplaying its value.  There's a lot to be said about packing 7 or 8 5-power creatures in a deck like this.  One of my traditional issues with Stax is that opponents survive just long enough to fire off a Hurks or Rebuild, and untap and win.  With this many 5-power creatures, hopefully they never have a chance to reach that point, because they're dead.  The Dredge comment isn't inaccurate (it sucks there), but its rarely relevant since Juggernaut isn't really the reason why you scoop to Dredge game 1; unless they keep a Bazaar hand with no Dredgers and lose to Wasteland or mull to Oblivion, you're pretty likely to lose no matter what.

I wouldn't even say its the worst play against Storm, where you're throwing out as many resistors as you can and then hoping you can finish them off before they draw or tutor into whatever options they have to reset your board.  A Triskelion is probably worse than Juggernaut against Storm, although it is obviously better against Dredge. 

The appeal of Juggs is that he's easy to cast even with a number of Spheres in play, and helps you finish games quickly.  He's still the worst card in the deck, but that doesn't necessarily mean he needs to get cut from the deck.  By definition, every deck will have a worst card, unless its 60 basic lands (and there, if it has any Plains, those are the worst cards, just by virtue of being Plains in a Vintage deck).

In any case - the build I'm playing right now doesn't use Juggernaut.  I replaced them with Trisks and added additional Metalworkers to account for the fact that Trisks are generally harder to resolve.  Trisk is much better in the current meta and I made that swap all day in Blue Bell, so it makes sense.  Still, just because there's a "better" Juggernaut doesn't necessarily mean that you can't get value out of playing BOTH of them, together.

I agree on Karn, that guy is my new hero.  Card is basically the stone-blade of the deck.  I'm strongly considering playing 3 next time, even though in testing before Blue Bell I played two because I drew too many hands with 2 Karns.

Honestly, I'd make room for a couple Razormane Masticore. That card is a stone-cold beating for Fish. I'd at least run some in the SB

[smasher]

I think I did actually play it for 0.  I believe that's the play - Workshop, Thorn.  Thorn resolves, that guarantees Chalice on 0 resolves.  With the mana floating from Shop, pay 1 for Chalice 0. 

I was under the impression you can't use workshop mana to pay additional costs for spells like the +1 cost from thorn or sphere. Someone correct me If I'm wrong. It seems with no mox on turn 1 to pay for chalice then the only viable play is chalice on zero first followed by thorn. Ignore the latter if I'm wrong about workshop mana and additional mana costs.

[Yare]

I think I did actually play it for 0.  I believe that's the play - Workshop, Thorn.  Thorn resolves, that guarantees Chalice on 0 resolves.  With the mana floating from Shop, pay 1 for Chalice 0. 

I was under the impression you can't use workshop mana to pay additional costs for spells like the +1 cost from thorn or sphere. Someone correct me If I'm wrong. It seems with no mox on turn 1 to pay for chalice then the only viable play is chalice on zero first followed by thorn. Ignore the latter if I'm wrong about workshop mana and additional mana costs.

You can use Workshop to pay additional costs from Sphere, Thorn, Lodestone, etc.

[smasher]

Thanks I was forgetting the difference between daze/mana leak effects and sphere effects on spells and workshop mana

[Evenpence]

I think I did actually play it for 0.  I believe that's the play - Workshop, Thorn.  Thorn resolves, that guarantees Chalice on 0 resolves.  With the mana floating from Shop, pay 1 for Chalice 0.  

I was under the impression you can't use workshop mana to pay additional costs for spells like the +1 cost from thorn or sphere. Someone correct me If I'm wrong. It seems with no mox on turn 1 to pay for chalice then the only viable play is chalice on zero first followed by thorn. Ignore the latter if I'm wrong about workshop mana and additional mana costs.

You can use Workshop to pay additional costs from Sphere, Thorn, Lodestone, etc.

Wait, you can?  If this is true, I've been playing Shops wrong for like 5 years.

I could have cast stuff under my own Sphere of Resistance in the Richmond T8 if this is true.  -.-

EDIT:  Under Gatherer for Mishra's Workshop:

10/4/2004: This mana may not be used to pay costs imposed after the spell is initially cast.
10/4/2004: This mana may be used on additional costs to cast the spell, such as Kicker.

So it seems that you can use Shop to pay for Sphere of Resistance, but not Daze.  I'll be damned.

I searched rulings on Trinisphere, Sphere of Resistance, Thorn of Amethyst, and Lodestone Golem and didn't come up with anything new.

[TheShop]

Just part of the reason why Nether Void will never make its way into shop.dec.