The best storm combo deck in Vintage nowadays..

[jerski]

Hi All,

I'm planning to build a storm combo deck in Vintage.. Please give me idea what is the best storm combo deck to use nowadays.

Below are the list of storm-based combo decks that I'm interested to use.

1. TPS
2. ANT
3. Drain Tendrils
4. Meandeck Gifts

Also, please give me idea what are the difference of these combo decks.

Any help will be highly appreciated.

Thanks!

[Marske]

@Jerski,
First of all, Welcome to The Mana Drain!

Second,
This is highly debatable and personal preference plays a big part in answering your question. It's also highly meta game dependent as Drain Tendrils isn't good in a meta where the top decks are ANT and TPS. To answer your second question a bit, the difference between all the decks (barring Meandeck gifts which far as I heard died when they restricted gifts) can be described best like this:


ANT              TPS            GWsX         Drain Tendrils
Speed =================== Resilliance

ANT
Is very very fast, often able to kill as fast as turn 1-2 but it lacks any form of resiliance or Plan B). It can have great difficulty beating decks which put multiple threats (spheres) on the board.

TPS
TPS is fast and resiliant to most things that can harm it, it has the ability to run Force of Will and Duress as protection / disruption, along with a fast (turn 3-4) clock if left unchecked. It is however, extremely more difficult to pilot then something like ANT which has a pretty linear plan (Resolve Ad Nauseam or die) TPS has multiple engines and lines of play making mastering it extremely difficult which puts players of picking it up.

There is however a nice amount of writing by Smmenen and myself to be found on TMD and SCG regarding TPS and how to pilot it. Also I should note this is my personal preference if that wasn't at all clear

GWSX
Not as linear as ANT or as difficult as TPS it has a good backup plan (Confidant beats) which also doubles as a steady draw engine. It's a bit slower and can suffer from the fact that it usually doesn't support Force of Will (although recent builds have been seen doing so) making Duress and / or Thoughtseize (some rare cases Orim's Chant) their only real way of interacting. It usually kills around turn 4-5

Drain Tendrils
The slowest of the storm decks, it's highly resiliant because it can run Force, Drain and now even Spell Pierce, but it usually lacks the explosiveness of the other decks. It usually kills late game after it has estabilished a firm graps on the game.

Please note that all these decks can be pushed to go beyond their limits or well below them, TPS can kill turn 1 and ANT can kill on turn 20, it's however not a good thing to push a deck one way or the other, which is the first thing an aspiring combo player must learn, namely; when to go for it.

[Adan]

I'd go for ANT. Simply because you need the least amount of Powerpieces for it. But this is just a matter of my personal budget problems. =D

No, but the ANT builds with 8 Duress effects are pretty good imho, as they can buy time and punish bad opening hands. I also think that ANt can be resilient enough due to... 6 maindeck bouncespells? And well, it's UB, so you do run a decent amount of basiclands to resist Wastelands.

I'd go for ANT. At least for me, drainbased Stormdecks often feel like they are drifting off into a more controlish role and you will be in a resourcewar with other controldecks pretty fast. ANT is definitely more consequent on being fast combo.

[honestabe]

If someone put a gun to my head and made me play combo at the next tournament, I'd play GWSx.  It's the only storm deck that can win after getting hit my a jester's cap or sadistic sacrament.  It's also very resistant to hate, which is good since workshop decks and fish decks are on the rise

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

Although I think Marske has given a good summary of the various archetypes, he has somewhat oversimplified things with his speed versus resiliency classification.

Resiliency isn’t a straightforward term, because it depends on what kind of hate you want to be resilient against.  Each of these archetypes is strong against some kinds of hate but weak against others.

For example, Ad Nauseam suffers against Sphere effects and quick beatdown, so it’s weak against Mud/Workshop Aggro.  Nevertheless, the Bob+Thoughtseize versions have considerable resiliency against both Control decks and traditional 5-colour Stax.

Similarly, the latest GWSx lists are resilient against both Control decks and Workshop decks, but suffer against Oath and faster combo decks.  Furthermore, they are not necessarily slower than TPS, since they are capable of running the same bombs and acceleration, merely with a different support suite.  For example, the main difference between TPS and GWSx would be something like the following:
-4 Fow
-1 Fact or Fiction
-1 Gifts Ungiven
-1 Robot
-1 Grim Tutor
-1 Imperial Seal
+4 Dark Confidant
+2 Tendrils of Agony
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Demonic Consultation
This maintains all the same bombs (Will, Tinker/Jar, Desire, Bargain, Necro, Twister) and acceleration that allow you to kill quickly, while being able to use confidant beats+mini tendrils as an alternate route to victory.

Drain Tendrils is more resilient against traditional storm hate such as Spheres and Chalices, simply because it packs a bunch of counterspells, but can’t go off quickly and has little board control, so is thus more susceptible Fish decks which stunt mana development while beating down ftw.

So rather than just looking at Speed vs Resiliency, I would look at how the matchups play out and what kind of decks you expect to face.

[Cyberpunker]

Drain tendrils also needs to play a little like Tezzeret and include Night's Whispers or Dark Confidants as an engine. The KeyVault plan should also be considereed. The deck can fight Selkie if they splash red or green for Tarmogoyf or Firesprout.

But its slower than Oath .

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

But its slower than Oath .

This depends on what version of Drain Tendrils you play.  It's probably the most customizable of all the storm archetypes.  You can play Mystic Remora/Meditate, Dark Confidant, or Intuition/AK.  A build with Intuition AK and Dark Rituals can goldfish around turn 3-4 fairly consistently.  The problem with these kinds of builds is that they are weak against Fish and Stax, although strong against other control decks.

[OmniStrife_101]

I just want to ask where do we put Intuition Tendrils in the list?
Because next to GWSx, this combo variant I think would do well is IT.   

[honestabe]

I just want to ask where do we put Intuition Tendrils in the list?
Because next to GWSx, this combo variant I think would do well is IT.   

.  That's drain tendrils

[median]

Theres a dutch list over at http://www.vintage-sideboard.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=20:the-brass-man-takes-a-dutch-challenge-to-america&catid=5:vintage-articles&Itemid=12
and discussion at http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=39648.0
This is somewhere in the GWS/x area of speed/resilience with no drains or rituals.
I really like it.
Also take a look at marske's new tezz list as it has a tendrils option that can be fiddled into main.    http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=40337.0
If I ever stopped doing home-brew stuff I would play that RND tezz with the tendrils main.

[Marske]

@Median,

Theres a dutch list over at http://www.vintage-sideboard.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=20:the-brass-man-takes-a-dutch-challenge-to-america&catid=5:vintage-articles&Itemid=12
and discussion at http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=39648.0

Don't forget The tournament reports as they contain a lot of inside info on the deck as well.

3rd in Germany: Tobi
3rd in Holland: Zieby

Watskeburt?! Has definitely made some good showings in the past year since we released the list.

This is somewhere in the GWS/x area of speed/resilience with no drains or rituals.
I really like it.

Correct and thank you!

Also take a look at marske's new tezz list as it has a tendrils option that can be fiddled into main.    http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=40337.0
If I ever stopped doing home-brew stuff I would play that RND tezz with the tendrils main.

Please note that RND Tezz and Watskeburt?! Feature a similar "shell" (Tops, Repeals, Bounce sometimes combined with Confidant etc) and that this "shell" enables various kills (Tezz, Brainfreeze, Tendrils) depending on preference and the expected meta game. It would be quite easy to run a Tendrils main in RND Tezz, as you may see I run one in the SB to use in some matches.

I'm glad you like the deck(s) btw

[OmniStrife_101]

I just want to ask where do we put Intuition Tendrils in the list?
Because next to GWSx, this combo variant I think would do well is IT.   

.  That's drain tendrils

That I am not quite sure since the original list for IT does not have Mana Drain in it.  Erik just suggested it some time ago the inclusion of 2 Mana Drains main deck.  But mainly, IT still supports rituals and tutors powered by intuition.

what do you guys think?

[Zieby]

I Tested IT when BS got restricted,

IT is fast (Turn 3/4) but is realy hurt by Spheres. In todays metagame I do not think it is vailable.

However this deck is also able to support Bob, and with the 3+ bounce spells it can run it is able to fight against spheres. against TPS, Oath, Dredge and Tezz it has a good game.

I think that when looking at Storm combo, it highly depends on you personel view and how you play the list. As an example, I'm horrible with GWSx, but played Watskeburt and European Storm both to top 8 the first tournament I played with it.

All storm decks can be made to fit the current Metagame, although the 13 sphere.dec will always be a hard match-up in my opinion.

Greetz Arjan

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

I used to play IT.  Drains do not belong in it, IMO, unless you run a more controllish version with AKs or Deep Analysis, which basically ends up being like Tog with a Tendrils finish.

Anyway, I just came up with the following list, which is not tuned or tested but basically illustrates what I think IT today would look like, with Arjan's suggestion of Bobs and 3x Hurkyls.  It's basically a hybrid of oldschool IT and newschool GWSx.

4 Force of Will
2 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
3 Hurkyl's Recal
1 Chain of Vapor

4 Dark Confidant
3 Intuition
2 Grim Tutor

1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Necropotence
1 Mind's Desire
1 Tendrils of Agony

5 Mox
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual

4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Underground Sea
2 Swamp
1 Island
1 Tolarian Academy (debatable, but good syngery with Desire and sometimes with Intuition)

Sb (will vary, but rough possible breakdown):
~5 Ichy Hate
2-3 Stax
2-3 Fish
2-3 Control
2-3 Combo

Other possible inclusions are Twister, Tinker/Jar, and Bargain, as well as Ponder.  The list is pretty tight however, so I decided to focus on the Intuition/Will combo and supporting it effectively.  Kee in mind that Intuition has other uses as well.  It can get you Bobs, Fows, Duresses, Grim/Grim/Dt or Cabal/Cabal/Lotus (with Threshold).

The list doesn't appear horrible to me, but testing would be required to determine whether or not it's viable.

[jerski]

Hi All,

Thanks for all your feedback and suggestions. I've already decided what kind of combo deck that will fit my play style.

I choose TPS since it is resilient and consistent though it's pretty hard to know how to play it properly. Well that's why we have a play test.

Also, I consider TPS as a control deck too since i can easily disrupt the opponent using FoW and Duress.

I've read Smenen TPS tutorial and it's really comprehensive and easy to understand. I'll build and play test his deck list.

[Evenpence]

Also, I consider TPS as a control deck too since i can easily disrupt the opponent using FoW and Duress.

A lot of people will discredit you based on sentences like this.  Duress/FoW are used to protect your combo elements, not to gain control of the game.  Even though they can be used in control shells, they are not 'control cards.'

Most players assign control and beatdown to players -- combo is almost always 'the beatdown.'  You're trying to win before your opponent can take control of the game and resolve threats that you can't deal with (or have enough countermagic in hand and mana on board so you can't plow through).

A lot of players will quote Flores (iirc) with "misassignment of role = game loss."  Sometimes with TPS you will be the control, but those times will be exceedingly rare.  Even in the first few turns, you're playing your spells to resolve your bombs.  A turn 1 duress might be the right play, but not because you want to eventually control the gamestate.

Really, a lot of it is semantics and I doubt you meant to word your sentence the way that it comes across to most Magic players.  Just something to be aware of.