[Free Article] Oath 2: Electric Boogaloo

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

This past blue bell event on May 1st I played 15/15 dude and sphinx only. I opted for more control based cards like 4 duress effects main aswell....i did not care giving my opponent a turn after i activated my oath as most of the time i had the upper hand as far as disruption is concered...I felt the same way as Soly as Iona is not as nessecary as it once was maybe. Here again i expected alot of fish/mud/stax of the past few blue bells. But in the end i beat all blue decks. Drain tendrils, bob tps, and salvager combo....then loosing in top 8 to the coolest deck ever (not), DREDGE

7th Place: Josh Potucek playing "SEE BEYOND OATH!"

4 Force of Will
3 Mana Drain
3 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
4 Oath of Druids
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
4 See Beyond
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Ponder
1 Brainstorm
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Time Walk
1 Rushing River
1 Tinker
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Forbidden Orchard
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Forest
2 Island
1 Strip Mine

SB:
3 Nature's Claim
2 Pithing Needle
2 Spell Pierce
1 Ghastly Demise
1 Rebuild
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Extirpate
1 Yixlid Jailer
1 Bojuka Bog

[Cyberpunker]

Kooaznboi1088:

I’m not sure you’ve actually tested the Dragon plan, and would guess you definitely haven’t played it as extensively as I did.  2x Hellkite and 1x Karrthus isn’t something I came upon randomly.  Well, ok, maybe I came upon Karrthus randomly, but he serves a specific set of purposes.  IF you are on my old Dragon plan:

1 – Sower is a generally a blank against dragons.  If I Oath up Hellkite and smash you for 9 damage, putting you at, say, 9 life, and then you Sower my tapped Hellkite, I will either:  a) Oath into Karrthus, stealing back my Dragon, who untaps and murders you, or b) Oath into another Hellkite, who attacks in for lethal unless you block with Sower… which means I get my Hellkite back.

2 – Jace is a blank if your whole deck is haste dragons.  You can either a) Attack into Jace, killing it, or b) attack in for damage, let them bounce, then Oath again and attack in for damage.

3 – Duplicant is really weak against Dragons.  I Oath into Hellkite and smash for 9.  You play Duplicant and get an 8/8 that doesn’t fly, but is still a Dragon.  Now, I either a) Get another Hellkite and attack for 9 again, or b) Get Karrthus, who steals your duplicant dragon back and gives it Haste, and attack for lethal with Karrthus + Duplicant.

4 – Bounce spells ARE a problem, however, the use of Inkwell went a long way towards solving that problem because people moved away from Echoing Truth / Chain of Vapor towards Hurks and Rebuild.  Now, the popularity of Shops helps keep Hurks popular instead of E. Truth.

5 – Against Shop decks, your Emrakul is vulnerable to being tapped down by Tangle Wire; Dragons don’t have this problem because they always come out AFTER the Tangle Wire trigger resolves.  If you hit a Hellkite first and then a Karrthus, you go lethal after two Oath activations even if Tangle Wire taps down your first Hellkite.

So, again, all the things I mentioned – Sower, Jace, Duplicant, Tangle Wire – Dragons are resistant to, while Emrakul is not.  Triple Dragons pretty much guarantees that you play Oath, your opponent then gets a turn.  You then smash for minimum 7 damage, they get one more turn, then you go lethal.

Non-haste Robot + Emrakul + Terastodon can result in the following sequence:  you play Oath.  Opponent gets a turn.  You Oath into Sphinx.  Opponent gets a turn.  You Oath into Emrakul.  Opponent gets a turn.  

That’s just waaaay too many turns.  Again, my point is that people say Dragons are too slow because they “just” win the game in two activations.  I’d say clearly the sequence above is a lot worse.

Don’t misunderstand, I’m not advocating going back to trip dragons (although I think most people would find their win % against much of the field as a whole is almost the same) b/c I think you need a Tinker target main and Iona / Terastodon has proven itself to me as a terrifc combo.  I’m just saying you DON’T want Robot + Emrakul for the same reason people ripped me (correctly, in hindsight) for trying to play Robot + Progenitus last summer.  While Emrakul is probably better than Progenitus – he’s more vulnerable but just wins the game if he attacks – I still think the # of games you’ll lose by giving your opponent two full turns unmolested isn’t worth the risk.

You and Marske may be right and I may be dead on wrong this whole time. But tournament results and testing look so far in my favor. And if I am wrong, then I will admit it once the results start showing it. But judgeing from your recent articles and Marske's recent testing with Tezzeret,  I know you guys have not been playtesting Emrakul just as I have not been playtesting Jace. And speaking from a POV of an Emrakul runner, I say he is great for the reasons I state previously.

He is your 1 hit KO that cannot be bounced and the turns you give your opponent are migitated by your other lock creatures. Because I am thinking of Oath as a process, not as a 1 hit KO. Elephant, Iona lock them. Emrakul is great at finishing them. And Inkwell is for the Tinker target. I will again put my theory to the test tommorow in Tokyo against the toughest Metagame I will have ever faced with Elephant Oath. So hopefully I will do well.  

@oshkoshhaitsyosh

Interesting take on Oath. I have a problem with See Beyond though, it seems like a bad Night's Whisper that could be Show and Tell. But 2 different players have 2 different deckbuilding theories. Best of luck to you.

[Fortune]

Congratulations Josh! It's unfortunate that the dredge train had to ruin your top 8 run.  Can you tell me a little more about your sideboard?  How were imperial archangel and deed?  when did you bring them in?

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Congratulations Josh! It's unfortunate that the dredge train had to ruin your top 8 run.  Can you tell me a little more about your sideboard?  How were imperial archangel and deed?  when did you bring them in?

I did not get the opportunity to bring them in that much at all really....i figured deed seems good vs shops/fish/mud. I actually brought in deed vs dredge and it won me game 2 suprisingly haha. On Archangel....next time i play oath it will be a very similar build to this....(and yes with 4 see beyond)....but i will cut archangel from sb to have another dredge hater....But thanks man!

@kooaznboi1088

I feel like show and tell is hit or miss...bc u need a guy in ur hand to be good. Where as see beyond sculpts ur hand even if you dont have a guy to reshuffle, because you can always reshuffle a land or an irrelivant spell at the time. The see beyonds helped sculpt my hands to beat the blue decks i faced. And i would agree at first glance they look like a worse nights whisper but in testing i liked them alot because hands that oath normally could not keep become keepable because of this card

[Tha Gunslinga]

Can you give a rough play-by-play of the Dredge games?

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Can you give a rough play-by-play of the Dredge games?

Game 1 DREDGE ON PLAY, he has turn 1 bazaar stuff, and my opening hand is key, fow, see beyond, orchard, mox, land, land/or maybe drain.........i go turn 1 see beyond into time vault.....he has turn 2 a 2nd bazaar, then on my turn drop key vault not active, and he wins on his turn.

Game 2 I mull to 6, I get a hand with needle, land, land, oath, spell pierce, see beyond, and i keep. Turn 1 needle bazaar, then turn 2 see beyond, into control spells nothing relevant, no additional hate or orchard. next turn he hardcasts a guy, then i play oath, he therapies my pierce then awnsers my needle i forget how, does some cool bazaar stuff....On my insuing turn I oath into 15/15....then he goes and leaves narc open to block emrakul, I oath up sphinx, and GET VERY LUCKY AND RIP TIME WALK.....like a true sack for the win, which was my only out  bc he had me at like 4 life.

Game 3 He has a insane hand of bazaar dredgers and anti-hate cards....I mull to 6 having a hand similar to game 2 he just has an insanely fast hand and awnsers my needle, drop needle on bazaar, and he has an awnser for it, then i play see beyond into nothing relevant and i get steamrolled

Afterthoughts.....i will play a better dredge hate package, and hope to get better hand game 2 and 3 even tho i got very lucky game 2, and almost lucky enough game 1 but not quite. Like this deck alot with see beyonds!~

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

Can you give a rough play-by-play of the Dredge games?

Game 1 DREDGE ON PLAY, he has turn 1 bazaar stuff, and my opening hand is key, fow, see beyond, orchard, mox, land, land/or maybe drain.........i go turn 1 see beyond into time vault.....he has turn 2 a 2nd bazaar, then on my turn drop key vault not active, and he wins on his turn.

Game 2 I mull to 6, I get a hand with needle, land, land, oath, spell pierce, see beyond, and i keep. Turn 1 needle bazaar, then turn 2 see beyond, into control spells nothing relevant, no additional hate or orchard. next turn he hardcasts a guy, then i play oath, he therapies my pierce then awnsers my needle i forget how, does some cool bazaar stuff....On my insuing turn I oath into 15/15....then he goes and leaves narc open to block emrakul, I oath up sphinx, and GET VERY LUCKY AND RIP TIME WALK.....like a true sack for the win, which was my only out  bc he had me at like 4 life.

Game 3 He has a insane hand of bazaar dredgers and anti-hate cards....I mull to 6 having a hand similar to game 2 he just has an insanely fast hand and awnsers my needle, drop needle on bazaar, and he has an awnser for it, then i play see beyond into nothing relevant and i get steamrolled

Afterthoughts.....i will play a better dredge hate package, and hope to get better hand game 2 and 3 even tho i got very lucky game 2, and almost lucky enough game 1 but not quite. Like this deck alot with see beyonds!~

Worth noting: Imperial Seal instead of See Beyond would have won you game 1 and let you win game 2 without having to sack out. Of course you run 4 See Beyonds so theres no garuntee they would be Imperial Seal but just saying.

[awake]

Hey Guys, I'm a new player in vintage, but it's a format I would really like to try.
Anyway here is my contribution (list I'm now playing (in proxys ofc ^^)):

1 Flooded Strand
        1 Forest
        1 Library of Alexandria
        2 Island
        2 Tropical Island
        2 Underground Sea
        3 Polluted Delta
        4 Forbidden Orchard
        1 Inkwell Leviathan
        1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
        1 Terastodon
        1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
        1 Tezzeret the Seeker
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Lotus Petal
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Time Vault
        1 Voltaic Key
        4 Oath of Druids
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Brainstorm
        1 Chain of Vapor
        1 Mystical Tutor
        1 Rebuild
        1 Vampiric Tutor
        4 Force of Will
        4 Mana Drain
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Imperial Seal
        1 Ponder
        1 Time Walk
        1 Tinker
        1 Yawgmoth's Will
        4 See Beyond
SB:  1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB:  2 Pithing Needle
SB:  2 Nature's Claim
SB:  3 Duress
SB:  1 Engineered Explosives
SB:  4 Leyline of the Void
SB:  1 Rebuild
SB:  1 Extirpate



I love the See Beyong play, more I try it more I love it; My SB could probably be better, this is not something i gave a lot of time to.
I was first playing an Iona's Oath, with a storm kill ... but I didn't like it, probably because it's too sensitive to ancestral recall or anything making us draw.
The creature choice has been made with the help of this topic, i really love the terastodon/Iona's play, and Inkwell is my target for tinker, I love this "shroud" that other tinker's targets don't have.

Can you help me make this build better, or say me what you think about it =)

Thanks,

Awake.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

Hey Guys, I'm a new player in vintage, but it's a format I would really like to try.
Anyway here is my contribution (list I'm now playing (in proxys ofc ^^)):

1 Flooded Strand
        1 Forest
        1 Library of Alexandria
        2 Island
        2 Tropical Island
        2 Underground Sea
        3 Polluted Delta
        4 Forbidden Orchard
        1 Inkwell Leviathan
        1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
        1 Terastodon
        1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
        1 Tezzeret the Seeker
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Lotus Petal
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Time Vault
        1 Voltaic Key
        4 Oath of Druids
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Brainstorm
        1 Chain of Vapor
        1 Mystical Tutor
        1 Rebuild
        1 Vampiric Tutor
        4 Force of Will
        4 Mana Drain
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Imperial Seal
        1 Ponder
        1 Time Walk
        1 Tinker
        1 Yawgmoth's Will
        4 See Beyond
SB:  1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB:  2 Pithing Needle
SB:  2 Nature's Claim
SB:  3 Duress
SB:  1 Engineered Explosives
SB:  4 Leyline of the Void
SB:  1 Rebuild
SB:  1 Extirpate



I love the See Beyong play, more I try it more I love it; My SB could probably be better, this is not something i gave a lot of time to.
I was first playing an Iona's Oath, with a storm kill ... but I didn't like it, probably because it's too sensitive to ancestral recall or anything making us draw.
The creature choice has been made with the help of this topic, i really love the terastodon/Iona's play, and Inkwell is my target for tinker, I love this "shroud" that other tinker's targets don't have.

Can you help me make this build better, or say me what you think about it =)

Thanks,

Awake.

You really want to be playing at least 4 fetch. And if they’re not all misty rain forest, you don’t want to be running that forest.
Chain of vapor might bite you in the ass
Thirst for knowledge is better than see beyond because you can get +1 to ca, as wall as instant speed. So I’d cuz a see beyond for it.
Top help’s you never get into some of the problems that see beyond fixes, as well as just making your draws really good. I’d go -1 see beyond + 1 sensei’s divining top
Test out regrowth, its pretty good with time walk (or any restricted/broken card), I’ve seen it win a lot of games. I’d probably move rebuild to the side and stick this in there. If you add regrowth consider gifts ungiven.
I general, I loves me some imp seal, but without a good draw engine, I’d cut it because of the -1 to CA and not instant speed thing.

[Fortune]

Has anyone tried out imperial seal in oath?  If so, how was it?

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

Has anyone tried out imperial seal in oath?  If so, how was it?

The general idea last time there was a discussion about this was that Oath couldn't afford the card disadvantage. However, now that Oath runs more win conditions and silver bullets I wouldn't be surprised if it becomes run.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

It was great in gush oath lists, but those decks had insane draw engines. Right now in oath lists you're running enough threats to be able to just draw into them with the available draw spells, and get some more cards. Seems better than the imp seal right now.

[chrissss]

btw stupid question probably

but hasnt imperial seal become a lot worse now that Jace sees play?

Kooaznboi1088:

I’m not sure you’ve actually tested the Dragon plan, and would guess you definitely haven’t played it as extensively as I did.  2x Hellkite and 1x Karrthus isn’t something I came upon randomly.  Well, ok, maybe I came upon Karrthus randomly, but he serves a specific set of purposes.  IF you are on my old Dragon plan:

1 – Sower is a generally a blank against dragons.  If I Oath up Hellkite and smash you for 9 damage, putting you at, say, 9 life, and then you Sower my tapped Hellkite, I will either:  a) Oath into Karrthus, stealing back my Dragon, who untaps and murders you, or b) Oath into another Hellkite, who attacks in for lethal unless you block with Sower… which means I get my Hellkite back.

2 – Jace is a blank if your whole deck is haste dragons.  You can either a) Attack into Jace, killing it, or b) attack in for damage, let them bounce, then Oath again and attack in for damage.

3 – Duplicant is really weak against Dragons.  I Oath into Hellkite and smash for 9.  You play Duplicant and get an 8/8 that doesn’t fly, but is still a Dragon.  Now, I either a) Get another Hellkite and attack for 9 again, or b) Get Karrthus, who steals your duplicant dragon back and gives it Haste, and attack for lethal with Karrthus + Duplicant.

4 – Bounce spells ARE a problem, however, the use of Inkwell went a long way towards solving that problem because people moved away from Echoing Truth / Chain of Vapor towards Hurks and Rebuild.  Now, the popularity of Shops helps keep Hurks popular instead of E. Truth.

5 – Against Shop decks, your Emrakul is vulnerable to being tapped down by Tangle Wire; Dragons don’t have this problem because they always come out AFTER the Tangle Wire trigger resolves.  If you hit a Hellkite first and then a Karrthus, you go lethal after two Oath activations even if Tangle Wire taps down your first Hellkite.

So, again, all the things I mentioned – Sower, Jace, Duplicant, Tangle Wire – Dragons are resistant to, while Emrakul is not.  Triple Dragons pretty much guarantees that you play Oath, your opponent then gets a turn.  You then smash for minimum 7 damage, they get one more turn, then you go lethal.

Non-haste Robot + Emrakul + Terastodon can result in the following sequence:  you play Oath.  Opponent gets a turn.  You Oath into Sphinx.  Opponent gets a turn.  You Oath into Emrakul.  Opponent gets a turn.  

That’s just waaaay too many turns.  Again, my point is that people say Dragons are too slow because they “just” win the game in two activations.  I’d say clearly the sequence above is a lot worse.

thats actually a pretty good summary for your dragons I didnt actualy think about karthus' abilities a lot, ty for summing it up. I might give tripple dragons a try again.

[voltron00x]

I wouldn't worry about Imperial Seal in reference to an opponent's Jace, b/c if you're playing Oath and your opponent has a resolved Jace sitting there, you're already in big trouble.  On the other hand, Imperial Seal seems pretty strong if youre playing Jace... but I'm not sure its necessary.  Worth discussing though.

[awake]

Hey Guys, I'm a new player in vintage, but it's a format I would really like to try.
Anyway here is my contribution (list I'm now playing (in proxys ofc ^^)):

1 Flooded Strand
        1 Forest
        1 Library of Alexandria
        2 Island
        2 Tropical Island
        2 Underground Sea
        3 Polluted Delta
        4 Forbidden Orchard
        1 Inkwell Leviathan
        1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
        1 Terastodon
        1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
        1 Tezzeret the Seeker
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Lotus Petal
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Time Vault
        1 Voltaic Key
        4 Oath of Druids
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Brainstorm
        1 Chain of Vapor
        1 Mystical Tutor
        1 Rebuild
        1 Vampiric Tutor
        4 Force of Will
        4 Mana Drain
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Imperial Seal
        1 Ponder
        1 Time Walk
        1 Tinker
        1 Yawgmoth's Will
        4 See Beyond
SB:  1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB:  2 Pithing Needle
SB:  2 Nature's Claim
SB:  3 Duress
SB:  1 Engineered Explosives
SB:  4 Leyline of the Void
SB:  1 Rebuild
SB:  1 Extirpate



I love the See Beyong play, more I try it more I love it; My SB could probably be better, this is not something i gave a lot of time to.
I was first playing an Iona's Oath, with a storm kill ... but I didn't like it, probably because it's too sensitive to ancestral recall or anything making us draw.
The creature choice has been made with the help of this topic, i really love the terastodon/Iona's play, and Inkwell is my target for tinker, I love this "shroud" that other tinker's targets don't have.

Can you help me make this build better, or say me what you think about it =)

Thanks,

Awake.

You really want to be playing at least 4 fetch. And if they’re not all misty rain forest, you don’t want to be running that forest.
Chain of vapor might bite you in the ass
Thirst for knowledge is better than see beyond because you can get +1 to ca, as wall as instant speed. So I’d cuz a see beyond for it.
Top help’s you never get into some of the problems that see beyond fixes, as well as just making your draws really good. I’d go -1 see beyond + 1 sensei’s divining top
Test out regrowth, its pretty good with time walk (or any restricted/broken card), I’ve seen it win a lot of games. I’d probably move rebuild to the side and stick this in there. If you add regrowth consider gifts ungiven.
I general, I loves me some imp seal, but without a good draw engine, I’d cut it because of the -1 to CA and not instant speed thing.

Yeah i didn't change the fetches since my last Oath's version, this is now done ^^

The reason why i'm running rebuild MD is that in my meta (belgium meta) there are quite a lot of MUD; now I admit it's maybe better in SB, i go to playtest it and see.
thist for knowledge is great, the only problem i got with it, it's that you don't put a card back into your library, you put at least one (sometimes 2) in your graveyard ... but i'll give it a try too.

by the way, Gift Ungiven ... that's a card I'm hesitating to add to my build, it's actualy good with regrowth, but how do you play it?  I mean can you give me exemples? (i never payed vintage, and never played this card, so i dunno if it's really good, i mean lots of players are running it, but getting 2 cards in hands and 2 in the grave, without beeing able to choose which one you wanna keep sounds a bit bad to me)

I really love imp seal since we are running some good draw engine like jace, see beyond, ponder, BS, ancestral recall ... even if the seal is not in instant, the few games i've been playing with were really good =D


thanks for your advice
oh and btw, sorry for my poor english, I'll try to improve it ^^

[Rico Suave]

In regards to Imperial Seal:

It can certainly set up strong plays such as T1 Seal, T2 Oath/Orchard.  It can find Ancestral, Will, Time Walk, or a piece of Vault/Key.  At the basic level it is a tutor for any card in your deck, and as such it will advance the deck towards its goal.  While I don't necessarily have a problem with the fact it loses a card, I do have a problem with it being sorcery speed.  Knowing exactly what card you will need next turn can be problematic because your opponent has an entire turn to change the game state.  Too many times I have cast the Seal and found that I tutored for a card that won't win the game because I lacked an entire turn's worth of information. 

[awake]

In regards to Imperial Seal:

It can certainly set up strong plays such as T1 Seal, T2 Oath/Orchard.  It can find Ancestral, Will, Time Walk, or a piece of Vault/Key.  At the basic level it is a tutor for any card in your deck, and as such it will advance the deck towards its goal.  While I don't necessarily have a problem with the fact it loses a card, I do have a problem with it being sorcery speed.  Knowing exactly what card you will need next turn can be problematic because your opponent has an entire turn to change the game state.  Too many times I have cast the Seal and found that I tutored for a card that won't win the game because I lacked an entire turn's worth of information. 

yes I aggre with what you say about it, but I have still the problem of knowing if I put it into my build, cause it's a great card, but with some negative points like you explained ... I really can't decide (cause for me the negative points are not that bad since I'm running 8 draw cards (jace, ancestral, BS, ponder, see beyond ...))

But if I don't put it in the deck, what do you think can take its place?

[Troy_Costisick]

In regards to Imperial Seal:

It can certainly set up strong plays such as T1 Seal, T2 Oath/Orchard.  It can find Ancestral, Will, Time Walk, or a piece of Vault/Key.  At the basic level it is a tutor for any card in your deck, and as such it will advance the deck towards its goal.  While I don't necessarily have a problem with the fact it loses a card, I do have a problem with it being sorcery speed.  Knowing exactly what card you will need next turn can be problematic because your opponent has an entire turn to change the game state.  Too many times I have cast the Seal and found that I tutored for a card that won't win the game because I lacked an entire turn's worth of information. 

This is the biggest problem with Imperial Seal as a whole.  It just limits your options way too much.  After resolving it, you can't fetch for lands or do anything with your library, really.  You just have to hold on and hope for the best.

[Demonic Attorney]

In regards to Imperial Seal:

It can certainly set up strong plays such as T1 Seal, T2 Oath/Orchard.  It can find Ancestral, Will, Time Walk, or a piece of Vault/Key.  At the basic level it is a tutor for any card in your deck, and as such it will advance the deck towards its goal.  While I don't necessarily have a problem with the fact it loses a card, I do have a problem with it being sorcery speed.  Knowing exactly what card you will need next turn can be problematic because your opponent has an entire turn to change the game state.  Too many times I have cast the Seal and found that I tutored for a card that won't win the game because I lacked an entire turn's worth of information.  

yes I aggre with what you say about it, but I have still the problem of knowing if I put it into my build, cause it's a great card, but with some negative points like you explained ... I really can't decide (cause for me the negative points are not that bad since I'm running 8 draw cards (jace, ancestral, BS, ponder, see beyond ...))

But if I don't put it in the deck, what do you think can take its place?

Back when I wanted another topdeck tutor in Oath (and I don't right now), I used Lim-Dul's Vault.  Its effect is similar to that of Imperial Seal, with these differences:

+ It's an instant.  I think this is its biggest advantage, because it avoids the problem Rico mentioned.

+ It's blue.  In a deck that's forced to run between 6-8 nonblue cards to support the Oath engine, it's important to have a healthy complement of blue cards to pitch to Force of Will.

+ It can set up more than just your next draw.  More often than you might think, I've been able to put together whole combos with LDV by setting up Ancestral -> Tinker/Key or the like.  Even outside of that ideal scenario, LDV at least gives you information on your next 4 followup draws, as well as what you won't be seeing anytime soon, because you put it on the bottom of your deck.

+ Merchant Scroll can find it.  I think I only did this once or twice, but with LDV in your deck, Merchant Scroll can find Forbidden Orchard, Oath, or Will.  It's a small point, but worth mentioning.

- It usually costs more than 2 life.  It's rare that this mattered for me, but if you're really unlucky and lose 7 life or more to LDV, I guess this could be significant.  Since I typically use the card to set up an endgame combo, though, the life loss, even when it's big, has been pretty easy to ignore.

- It's 2 mana versus 1.  I don't think this matters very much, either.  If you're in a position where you can't play a 2cc topdeck tutor, then you probably can't play whatever you want to be tutoring for either, with the possible exception of Ancestral in some circumstances.  But I think topdeck tutoring for Ancestral is generally not a very strong play, and doesn't get the most mileage out of a tutor.

[awake]

In regards to Imperial Seal:

It can certainly set up strong plays such as T1 Seal, T2 Oath/Orchard.  It can find Ancestral, Will, Time Walk, or a piece of Vault/Key.  At the basic level it is a tutor for any card in your deck, and as such it will advance the deck towards its goal.  While I don't necessarily have a problem with the fact it loses a card, I do have a problem with it being sorcery speed.  Knowing exactly what card you will need next turn can be problematic because your opponent has an entire turn to change the game state.  Too many times I have cast the Seal and found that I tutored for a card that won't win the game because I lacked an entire turn's worth of information.  

yes I aggre with what you say about it, but I have still the problem of knowing if I put it into my build, cause it's a great card, but with some negative points like you explained ... I really can't decide (cause for me the negative points are not that bad since I'm running 8 draw cards (jace, ancestral, BS, ponder, see beyond ...))

But if I don't put it in the deck, what do you think can take its place?

Back when I wanted another topdeck tutor in Oath (and I don't right now), I used Lim-Dul's Vault.  Its effect is similar to that of Imperial Seal, with these differences:

+ It's an instant.  I think this is its biggest advantage, because it avoids the problem Rico mentioned.

+ It's blue.  In a deck that's forced to run between 6-8 nonblue cards to support the Oath engine, it's important to have a healthy complement of blue cards to pitch to Force of Will.

+ It can set up more than just your next draw.  More often than you might think, I've been able to put together whole combos with LDV by setting up Ancestral -> Tinker/Key or the like.  Even outside of that ideal scenario, LDV at least gives you information on your next 4 followup draws, as well as what you won't be seeing anytime soon, because you put it on the bottom of your deck.

+ Merchant Scroll can find it.  I think I only did this once or twice, but with LDV in your deck, Merchant Scroll can find Forbidden Orchard, Oath, or Will.  It's a small point, but worth mentioning.

- It usually costs more than 2 life.  It's rare that this mattered for me, but if you're really unlucky and lose 7 life or more to LDV, I guess this could be significant.  Since I typically use the card to set up an endgame combo, though, the life loss, even when it's big, has been pretty easy to ignore.

- It's 2 mana versus 1.  I don't think this matters very much, either.  If you're in a position where you can't play a 2cc topdeck tutor, then you probably can't play whatever you want to be tutoring for either, with the possible exception of Ancestral in some circumstances.  But I think topdeck tutoring for Ancestral is generally not a very strong play, and doesn't get the most mileage out of a tutor.

Well that can be a very good alternative to imp seal i guess, of  course I've got to test it, but it looks strong and yes, the loss of some life is something you have to do with, like you say it helps assembling an end game combo (not all the time, I know, but it helps you assembling any combo of the deck) so yes the life loss can be ignore.

I go to try with 1 LDV instead of the imp seal.

[Killane]

by the way, Gift Ungiven ... that's a card I'm hesitating to add to my build, it's actualy good with regrowth, but how do you play it?  I mean can you give me exemples? (i never payed vintage, and never played this card, so i dunno if it's really good, i mean lots of players are running it, but getting 2 cards in hands and 2 in the grave, without beeing able to choose which one you wanna keep sounds a bit bad to me)

Gifts is absurd if you play it right. Consider Oath/Orchard/Demonic/Regrowth - it gets the whole Oath combo for you in one shot at EOT - and since  have 4 mana available, you'll be able to play the whole thing as well regardless of the pile they give you. A pile of Key/Vault/Regrowth/YawgWin and sufficient mana auto assembles Key-Vault. There are any number of amazing things to do with this card- I use it in Storm decks where even piles like Sol Ring/Mana Crypt/Black Lotus/Dark Ritual can be game-winning (with YawgWin or a tutor in hand) -

Gifts is highly skill intensive- feeling comfortable with your deck, what combinations of cards you might want at any given time, and how to put together piles of broken that give your oppoenent no MEANINGFUL choices are all important - I'd certainly consider it for any blue-based deck, and in Oath the fact that it can assemble both parts of both combos just seems too god to ignore.

Hope that helps.

[awake]

by the way, Gift Ungiven ... that's a card I'm hesitating to add to my build, it's actualy good with regrowth, but how do you play it?  I mean can you give me exemples? (i never payed vintage, and never played this card, so i dunno if it's really good, i mean lots of players are running it, but getting 2 cards in hands and 2 in the grave, without beeing able to choose which one you wanna keep sounds a bit bad to me)

Gifts is absurd if you play it right. Consider Oath/Orchard/Demonic/Regrowth - it gets the whole Oath combo for you in one shot at EOT - and since  have 4 mana available, you'll be able to play the whole thing as well regardless of the pile they give you. A pile of Key/Vault/Regrowth/YawgWin and sufficient mana auto assembles Key-Vault. There are any number of amazing things to do with this card- I use it in Storm decks where even piles like Sol Ring/Mana Crypt/Black Lotus/Dark Ritual can be game-winning (with YawgWin or a tutor in hand) -

Gifts is highly skill intensive- feeling comfortable with your deck, what combinations of cards you might want at any given time, and how to put together piles of broken that give your oppoenent no MEANINGFUL choices are all important - I'd certainly consider it for any blue-based deck, and in Oath the fact that it can assemble both parts of both combos just seems too god to ignore.

Hope that helps.

oh yeah it's right, it's a really amazing card, I have to put it in my build xD ^^ thanks for your help mate it will takes time for me to master the deck and all the plays possible in it, but I really love this deck, so I'll take the time that I need to know the deck at 100% I'll post my new build lately in the day =)

[awake]

Like I told you, here is the last version of the build that i'm using :

        1 Forest
        1 Library of Alexandria
        2 Island
        2 Tropical Island
        2 Underground Sea
        4 Forbidden Orchard
        4 Misty Rainforest
        1 Inkwell Leviathan
        1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
        1 Terastodon
        1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
        1 Tezzeret the Seeker
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Lotus Petal
        1 Mana Crypt
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Time Vault
        1 Voltaic Key
        4 Oath of Druids
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Brainstorm
        1 Gifts Ungiven
        1 Lim-Dûl's Vault
        1 Mystical Tutor
        1 Rebuild
        1 Vampiric Tutor
        4 Force of Will
        4 Mana Drain
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Ponder
        1 Regrowth
        1 Time Walk
        1 Tinker
        1 Yawgmoth's Will
        3 See Beyond
SB:  1 Extirpate
SB:  1 Engineered Explosives
SB:  1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB:  2 Pithing Needle
SB:  2 Nature's Claim
SB:  3 Duress
SB:  4 Leyline of the Void
SB:  1 Rebuild

I can't resign myself to put the rebuild in SB, i'm really expecting a lot of MUD.
A question I've got is about the Spell Pierce, I saw a lot of players playing them instead of Mana Drain, what do you think is better?
more i test more i think i need something like 10 hardcounters in MD ... what do you think i can't put out to put something like 2 Spell Pierce?

thanks

Awake.

[Jess.fr]

Spell Pierce is what made the Oath deck viable again.

Atm, I'm playing 11 counters: 4 FoW, 4 Pierce, 3 Drain. I will test 2 Pierce / 2 Snare for the sake of it, not sure though.

[Troy_Costisick]

Spell Pierce is what made the Oath deck viable again.

Well, Spell Pierce, Iona, and Terastadon...

[Killane]

Spell Pierce is what made the Oath deck viable again.

Well, Spell Pierce, Iona, and Terastadon...

QFT- the real reason Oath works again is that it no longer has to pass the turn without Major disruption after activating oath. In the past it was like "Oath- take 6 9or 8, or whatever" pass - oh tendrils for 20 that sucks oh key-vault that sucks, not it's like- "Oath, cut off half your deck, pass" or "oath, kill all your lands, pass". While t actuall kill is slower than 2xDragon Oath, it becomes very difficult to win vs oath after just 1 activation.