Has Jace Mindsculpted the Vintage Community?

[DubDub]

EDIT: Does it make sense that Jace is $48 and Tezzeret is $7.50 when they're both highly played Mythics? Not really. Jace is much more played in Standard, but that's way too big of a gap. I expect Jace to drop in price (probably down to about $30 area) after Standard settles over the next 6 months and some other technology changes the format a little.

Yes, also in part because a ton more Shards of Alara was opened than Worldwake.  Shards was the first set in a block, and so was triple drafted until Conflux, double drafted until Reborn and then still drafted until M10.  Worldwake was a single pack in ZEN-ZEN-WWK drafts, and has already been replaced by Rise.  It is true that Shards had 15 Mythics, while Worldwake had only 10, so the conditional probability that any Mythic from each set will be specifically Jace is 1.5 times that of having your Mythic be Tezz.  So, if we assume that similar amounts of total drafts were done with each format then we'd expect six times as many Shards Mythics to have been opened as Worldwake Mythics (from drafting), which means four times as many Tezz's were opened as Jace's.

Also, Jace is far better than all other WWK cards, so most of the value in the set is tied up in him.

Plus, Tezzeret interacts with artifacts, which has to be built around (Open the Vaults in standard, Thopter in Extended sometimes, although he's been largely replaced by the Hexmage-Depths combo), while Jace interacts with cards and creatures.  If Tezz were in Scars of Mirrodin he'd be more valuable since it would be so much easier to use him, and the artifacts he could fetch would likely have a higher power level (and diversity).  We'll see if for instance he gets the nod over Jace Beleren for M11 to promote synergy with Scars.

[Neonico]

Jace is insane as fuck in what it does:  FUCKING BREAK Control Mirrors.     And he does it better than even Library of Alexandria.

Why do i find this quote to be entirely unbelievable? Jace costs 4 mana, library is free and uncounterable. Turn 1 LoA is much much stronger, although i'll admit that i would probably rather draw jace turn 3 then library.

And for the record: Yes ofcourse i'd rather have jace then library on the board - That dosn't mean it's better.

IMHO and humble experience, I think that this is partially wrong....
Library of alexandria is alot more situationnal than it seems to be.... It's non optimum in many circonstances such as
 - Being on the play
 - Having to force of will in the first turns
 - Playing Low cost counterspells (spellpierce/REB) or duress effect
 - Facing a duress deck
 - Facing a wasteland deck

Considering how the different archetypes and the metagame evoldved (mainly Fish/MUD heavy, TPS come back) i personnally think that Jace is alot more effective than LoA actually.

[zeus-online]

Jace is insane as fuck in what it does:  FUCKING BREAK Control Mirrors.     And he does it better than even Library of Alexandria.

Why do i find this quote to be entirely unbelievable? Jace costs 4 mana, library is free and uncounterable. Turn 1 LoA is much much stronger, although i'll admit that i would probably rather draw jace turn 3 then library.

And for the record: Yes ofcourse i'd rather have jace then library on the board - That dosn't mean it's better.

IMHO and humble experience, I think that this is partially wrong....
Library of alexandria is alot more situationnal than it seems to be.... It's non optimum in many circonstances such as
 - Being on the play
 - Having to force of will in the first turns
 - Playing Low cost counterspells (spellpierce/REB) or duress effect
 - Facing a duress deck
 - Facing a wasteland deck

Considering how the different archetypes and the metagame evoldved (mainly Fish/MUD heavy, TPS come back) i personnally think that Jace is alot more effective than LoA actually.

Okay i disagree on just about every point there...:
Being on the play, okay i drop library have 6 cards, and my next draw phase brings me up to 7, and thus i can activate library, +1 CA right there.

Forcing in the first couple of turns, it actually needs to happen quite early, and whatever i'm forcing has to be pretty good (Most draw spells will not be that scary when i'm drawing off library)

Low cost counterspells are actually kinda good with library since it means you can have library and access to counterspells turn 2.

Duress is annoying, i'll give you that.

Sure them wasting library is annoying, but if i got to draw a card from it, then what's the big deal? I've just 2-1 them.

[Sobolev]

EDIT: Does it make sense that Jace is $48 and Tezzeret is $7.50 when they're both highly played Mythics? Not really. Jace is much more played in Standard, but that's way too big of a gap. I expect Jace to drop in price (probably down to about $30 area) after Standard settles over the next 6 months and some other technology changes the format a little.

Jace is played as a 3 or 4 of in the popular format.  Tezz is played as a 1 of in Vintage, the format that has other such stellar cards as 1 dollar Lodestone Golems.  Vintage moves foil prices, and that's about it usually.

[Grand Inquisitor]

I ran Jace as my "bounce" spell. I compared him to Repeal, Hurkyl's, Rebuild, Echoing Truth, et al. and decided that he was better than the alternatives for my meta.

This is why it's my 60th too.  And after reading everything, I guess I've changed my tune.  For 4cc I want something broken.  I want >sliced bread.

Jace isn't that, he's something that I talked about in my Tez thread when discussing 'settling' on Dark Confidant: slot economy.  By running him he allows me to cram more goodness into my other 74 cards.  He allows the entire shell to flex a little bit.  He's still clunky and weak, but he's clunky and weak in three different ways.

[matt_sperling]

Anecdotal evidence time:  Last night my opener with my tezz deck (against Stax) on the play is Lotus, Sol Ring, Jace, DT, Island, fetch, Hurkyl's.  Sure Tezzeret is better in this spot, since this is nearly the best possible draw with tezz against Stax, but Jace was easily enough to win.  Just one example of the "Jace is good enough" phenomenon that makes me love him. 

Related query: Does anyone just put a robot out with this opening draw (DT for Tinker, tinker the Sol)?  Hard to instantaneously get a feel for the risk/reward of just throwing a robot out, but I've lost plenty to 5cStax just jamming a robot and hoping they don't have Tangle Wire or tinker or balance (ok, I knew he didn't have balance since both decks were mine and I don't play balance at the moment, perhaps foolishly).  I have the Hurk, which helps of course, but if you think about it, Inkwell isn't racing the Tangle Wire even if I get to recall it once. 

My thinking is that Jace brainstorm every turn and keep the DT means I'll be able to Tinker soon enough with a better board position or a FoW and there's no need to shove all in on Inky.  (if this is an inappropriate hijack of the thread on Jace, I apologize).

[M.Solymossy]

I think Zeus and I will have to agree to either
A) argue back and forth like a couple of donkies.
B) Agree to disagree.

@ Zeus:  You seem reasonable.  I assume you'd pick B?  Those who know me know I'd pick A, but for majority sake, I'll pick B too   


Moving on:


My problem with Library is that in this format, you have to counter a ton of potential turn 1 or turn 2 threats.  And some of these threats aren't stopped by Spell Pierce.  With library on the table, you drastically hinder your ability to Banana Drain.

Workshop Aggro will drop a Sphere or Null Rod, or in a worst case realistic scenario a Golem, and you're stick with +1 Card Advantage, but -1 Mana on everything else you do.  And sometimes, you'll also be -5 to the face.   And even if you have Force of Will here, you're going to play an Island on your second turn, and still be unable to Mana Drain their next threat.  To make matters worse, Library will force you to keep valuable moxen in your hand, when your opponent can drop a Chalice of the Void and make you look like a chump.   I do realize if you know you're playing against shops you won't bank on the library->Go play, but I assume with all my scenarios that you don't know what your opponent is playing. 

Bant Aggro most likely will waste your Library of Alexandria if they can.  If not, a realistic situation is they drop a turn 1 Hierarch,  and then drop a turn 2 Goyf, Pridemage, or Trygon Predator.  You will most likely get one or two cards before they wasteland it.

It's only subpar against Oath and other Control decks as well, because you really have to be worried about their quick Key+Vault with backup.


Overall, I'd rather ALWAYS have Mana Drain up on turn 2.

[Cyberpunker]

Anecdotal evidence time:  Last night my opener with my tezz deck (against Stax) on the play is Lotus, Sol Ring, Jace, DT, Island, fetch, Hurkyl's.  Sure Tezzeret is better in this spot, since this is nearly the best possible draw with tezz against Stax, but Jace was easily enough to win.  Just one example of the "Jace is good enough" phenomenon that makes me love him. 

Related query: Does anyone just put a robot out with this opening draw (DT for Tinker, tinker the Sol)?  Hard to instantaneously get a feel for the risk/reward of just throwing a robot out, but I've lost plenty to 5cStax just jamming a robot and hoping they don't have Tangle Wire or tinker or balance (ok, I knew he didn't have balance since both decks were mine and I don't play balance at the moment, perhaps foolishly).  I have the Hurk, which helps of course, but if you think about it, Inkwell isn't racing the Tangle Wire even if I get to recall it once. 

My thinking is that Jace brainstorm every turn and keep the DT means I'll be able to Tinker soon enough with a better board position or a FoW and there's no need to shove all in on Inky.  (if this is an inappropriate hijack of the thread on Jace, I apologize).

With your hand, I would have first gotten Jace out, then Robot. But I wouldn't run Jace, so in my game I probably would have went directly for the Robot.

[BruiZar]

I think Zeus and I will have to agree to either
A) argue back and forth like a couple of donkies.
B) Agree to disagree.

@ Zeus:  You seem reasonable.  I assume you'd pick B?  Those who know me know I'd pick A, but for majority sake, I'll pick B too   


Moving on:


My problem with Library is that in this format, you have to counter a ton of potential turn 1 or turn 2 threats.  And some of these threats aren't stopped by Spell Pierce.  With library on the table, you drastically hinder your ability to Banana Drain.

Workshop Aggro will drop a Sphere or Null Rod, or in a worst case realistic scenario a Golem, and you're stick with +1 Card Advantage, but -1 Mana on everything else you do.  And sometimes, you'll also be -5 to the face.   And even if you have Force of Will here, you're going to play an Island on your second turn, and still be unable to Mana Drain their next threat.  To make matters worse, Library will force you to keep valuable moxen in your hand, when your opponent can drop a Chalice of the Void and make you look like a chump.   I do realize if you know you're playing against shops you won't bank on the library->Go play, but I assume with all my scenarios that you don't know what your opponent is playing. 

Bant Aggro most likely will waste your Library of Alexandria if they can.  If not, a realistic situation is they drop a turn 1 Hierarch,  and then drop a turn 2 Goyf, Pridemage, or Trygon Predator.  You will most likely get one or two cards before they wasteland it.

It's only subpar against Oath and other Control decks as well, because you really have to be worried about their quick Key+Vault with backup.


Overall, I'd rather ALWAYS have Mana Drain up on turn 2.

Actually, you are stuck with -2 mana, because the loa has to tap to draw a card and the sphere pumps your mana cost up.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

Anecdotal evidence time:  Last night my opener with my tezz deck (against Stax) on the play is Lotus, Sol Ring, Jace, DT, Island, fetch, Hurkyl's.  Sure Tezzeret is better in this spot, since this is nearly the best possible draw with tezz against Stax, but Jace was easily enough to win.  Just one example of the "Jace is good enough" phenomenon that makes me love him. 

I'd like to point this out because it seems in recent times tezz decks are settling on cards that are "good enough" such as Jace (and in many people's eyes Dark Confidant) where as in the past control decks have fought for the best of the best in their 75. That hand is absolutely insane where as Jace fills the role of "well at least I didn't lose" and that is what bothers me about him. In this example he is competing with turn 1 Tinker. In gunslinga's example he was competing with turn 1 Ancestral. Is he seriously better than those two cards? I mean are those restricted lifetime staples of Vintage not enough to "get there" anymore? Now obviously I don't know all the details of the two matches, but in those two hands Jace may as well have been Concentrate and I would be very surprised if they didn't win, and this is what I've been attempting to prove. Jace isn't winning games, your other 58-59 cards are while Jace gets all the attention.

As for the debate of Jace vs Library, I believe it all started in relation to the control mirror not other matchups.

Jace is insane as fuck in what it does:  FUCKING BREAK Control Mirrors.     And he does it better than even Library of Alexandria.

In a control mirror I would rather see Library than Jace in my opening hand 99% of the time. Even if it never actually draws you a card it forces your opponent to commit to an extremely early line of play which is usually a terrible idea in control mirrors. Now granted maybe they'll resolve an early bomb, but so what? Jace doesn't counter spells anyways so odds are you would be in the same hole at the end of the day. Of course it certainly cuts you off Mana Drain mana, but it also does the same for your opponent by forcing them to play early. Even something as simple as Spell Pierce backup by waiting a turn seems like a really bad idea in the face of an active Library. Now if both your hands are depleted and you're in topdeck mode obviously Jace is better, but odds are you have a lot of mana so Fact or Fiction or Skeletal Scrying will probably do you more good. I really don't see how a 4-mana Dark Confidant can be considered "insane as fuck at breaking control mirrors".

[matt_sperling]

Anecdotal evidence time:  Last night my opener with my tezz deck (against Stax) on the play is Lotus, Sol Ring, Jace, DT, Island, fetch, Hurkyl's.  Sure Tezzeret is better in this spot, since this is nearly the best possible draw with tezz against Stax, but Jace was easily enough to win.  Just one example of the "Jace is good enough" phenomenon that makes me love him. 

I'd like to point this out because it seems in recent times tezz decks are settling on cards that are "good enough" such as Jace (and in many people's eyes Dark Confidant) where as in the past control decks have fought for the best of the best in their 75. That hand is absolutely insane where as Jace fills the role of "well at least I didn't lose" and that is what bothers me about him. In this example he is competing with turn 1 Tinker. In gunslinga's example he was competing with turn 1 Ancestral. Is he seriously better than those two cards? I mean are those restricted lifetime staples of Vintage not enough to "get there" anymore? Now obviously I don't know all the details of the two matches, but in those two hands Jace may as well have been Concentrate and I would be very surprised if they didn't win, and this is what I've been attempting to prove. Jace isn't winning games, your other 58-59 cards are while Jace gets all the attention.

Control decks, almost by definition, make some trade-offs of raw power decrease in exchange for consistency/versatility.  This doesn't mean we're not looking for the best 75 cards we can play, of course we are.  What this means is that even if Jace is never a 10/10 on a power-level impact scale, if its nearly always an 8, we might play it anyway.  Look at it this way, Oath of Druids is sometimes a 10/10 and sometimes a 1/10, but Dark Confidant spends most of its days in the 7-8/10 power level, just approximating obviously.  Flexibility is important, it means you have less "dead cards" on average and you can get out of more situations on average.  As others have pointed out, Concentrate would have won this game, unsummon would have won that game, flying men would have won this other game when you got Sacramented, is fine with me.  When they print a Concentrate/unsummon/flying man/necropotence/See Beyond, etc. split card, I'm adding it to my deck. 

[Cyberpunker]

That only holds true if your deck needs to run some underwhelming cards to have a chance at the meta.

[BruiZar]

Anecdotal evidence time:  Last night my opener with my tezz deck (against Stax) on the play is Lotus, Sol Ring, Jace, DT, Island, fetch, Hurkyl's.  Sure Tezzeret is better in this spot, since this is nearly the best possible draw with tezz against Stax, but Jace was easily enough to win.  Just one example of the "Jace is good enough" phenomenon that makes me love him. 

I'd like to point this out because it seems in recent times tezz decks are settling on cards that are "good enough" such as Jace (and in many people's eyes Dark Confidant) where as in the past control decks have fought for the best of the best in their 75. That hand is absolutely insane where as Jace fills the role of "well at least I didn't lose" and that is what bothers me about him. In this example he is competing with turn 1 Tinker. In gunslinga's example he was competing with turn 1 Ancestral. Is he seriously better than those two cards? I mean are those restricted lifetime staples of Vintage not enough to "get there" anymore? Now obviously I don't know all the details of the two matches, but in those two hands Jace may as well have been Concentrate and I would be very surprised if they didn't win, and this is what I've been attempting to prove. Jace isn't winning games, your other 58-59 cards are while Jace gets all the attention.

Control decks, almost by definition, make some trade-offs of raw power decrease in exchange for consistency/versatility.  This doesn't mean we're not looking for the best 75 cards we can play, of course we are.  What this means is that even if Jace is never a 10/10 on a power-level impact scale, if its nearly always an 8, we might play it anyway.  Look at it this way, Oath of Druids is sometimes a 10/10 and sometimes a 1/10, but Dark Confidant spends most of its days in the 7-8/10 power level, just approximating obviously.  Flexibility is important, it means you have less "dead cards" on average and you can get out of more situations on average.  As others have pointed out, Concentrate would have won this game, unsummon would have won that game, flying men would have won this other game when you got Sacramented, is fine with me.  When they print a Concentrate/unsummon/flying man/necropotence/See Beyond, etc. split card, I'm adding it to my deck. 

This is the exact reason why Cryptic Command was played so much in the other formats. It does multiple tasks and does it very good

[zeus-online]

I think Zeus and I will have to agree to either
A) argue back and forth like a couple of donkies.
B) Agree to disagree.

@ Zeus:  You seem reasonable.  I assume you'd pick B?  Those who know me know I'd pick A, but for majority sake, I'll pick B too   

Yeah i'd pick B for multiple reasons....I don't want to hijack the thread, and LoA is about the most discussed vintage card of all time with neither side being able to convince the other that they are right.

But one thing i'd like to say is that if i have a turn 1 active library i go for it in all match-ups, even against combo.

Note that i didn't say jace was bad, just that i don't think he's even remotely comparable to LoA in the control mirror.

[Anusien]

Tezzeret has always been at its worst against beatdown decks. Jace is significantly stronger there, because it affects the board in a relevant way and because it's cheaper.

[DPCyric]

I actually think Jace 2.0 is being overlooked a bit and I expect to see him in more decks over time. Not only is he cheaper then Tezzeret and better in a control mirror he also generally buys you a couple of turns against an aggro deck. He plays really well with top deck tutors, doesn't drain your life or force you to use Divining Top like Dark Confidant. Basically I look at the new Jace as a souped up Ophidian. He draws on the same turn Ophidian would draw on, lets you dig 3 deep, doesn't die from creature removal and has a bunch of additional abilities. I think something like BBS or UR "phid" could be viable again with Jace in place of Ophidian. I've done some playtesting with him and I have been very shocked at how much better then Ophidian he has been for me. I think he has a lot of future potential in the format but with the way Vintage evolves Jace 2.0 may never get the play it deserves to see.

[Rico Suave]

Jace should not be looked at as a draw spell.  Sure it can function as a game-ending engine if left alone for a few turns; frequently it doesn't need anything more than an untap which puts it on a similar power level as Tezzeret, and sometimes it doesn't even need an untap! 

No, the reason Jace is good is because it can also control the board.  Bouncing Tinker targets, Dark Confidant, Oath targets, Fish creatures, or even Lodestone Golem is something that very few other cards can do without being situational.  We play cards like Repeal because they allow us to control the board without being dead in the control mirror.  Jace is that kind of card, and boy is it good at all of its functions.

[M.Solymossy]

No, the reason Jace is good is because it can also control the board.  Bouncing Tinker targets, Dark Confidant, Oath targets, Fish creatures, or even Lodestone Golem is something that very few other cards can do without being situational.  We play cards like Repeal because they allow us to control the board without being dead in the control mirror.  Jace is that kind of card, and boy is it good at all of its functions.

*THIS*!


If Jace didn't have it's other abilities, it wouldn't be worth playing.  The reason that it also can Bounce is huge, and I've even used the fateseal effect AND ultimate.

[matt_sperling]

Jace should not be looked at as a draw spell.  Sure it can function as a game-ending engine if left alone for a few turns; frequently it doesn't need anything more than an untap which puts it on a similar power level as Tezzeret, and sometimes it doesn't even need an untap!  

No, the reason Jace is good is because it can also control the board.  Bouncing Tinker targets, Dark Confidant, Oath targets, Fish creatures, or even Lodestone Golem is something that very few other cards can do without being situational.  We play cards like Repeal because they allow us to control the board without being dead in the control mirror.  Jace is that kind of card, and boy is it good at all of its functions.

*NOT THIS*!  [EDIT: "NOT THIS" is probably inappropriate since the above quote doesn't really evaluate Jace solely on his bounce ability.  I'm just trying to urge more "Gestalt" or "holistic" thinking rather than arguing which one of his abilities is "why" you include him in your deck or which is the "primary" ability, etc.]

Again, it isn't one thing or the other thing that he does, it is the sum of the value each of abilities adds to your deck.  Even if 50% of the utlity came from the bounce ability (doubtful), you'd be foolish to evaluate the card only with respect to this 50%.  Jace can be a draw spell and/or a bounce spell, but more importantly, it doesn't fit neatly into either category "bounce" or "draw spell."  Stop trying to think about this card using categories and broad labels.  It might work for "Does this deck want a Thirst or a Repeal?" but not for Jace.

[M.Solymossy]

I actually Value Jace as a win condition.  If you're playing a control mirror, you actually can Ultimate them pretty easily.    I value it because I don't need to add extra dead cards to my deck in order to not lose to Sadistic Sacrament.

[Delha]

Matt, it sounds like you're basically repeating what Rico said. The post you quoted yourself says that he's good because he's not JUST a draw spell, but ALSO because of his bounce ability. Unless I'm completely misreading, the claim is that Jace is good because of his flexibilty, a sentiment you seem to be echoing.

I'm not seeing where the huge discrepancy between his viewpoint and yours lies. Quote copied below, with my emphasis added.

No, the reason Jace is good is because it can also control the board.  Bouncing Tinker targets, Dark Confidant, Oath targets, Fish creatures, or even Lodestone Golem is something that very few other cards can do without being situational.  We play cards like Repeal because they allow us to control the board without being dead in the control mirror.  Jace is that kind of card, and boy is it good at all of its functions.

[matt_sperling]

Matt, it sounds like you're basically repeating what Rico said. The post you quoted yourself says that he's good because he's not JUST a draw spell, but ALSO because of his bounce ability. Unless I'm completely misreading, the claim is that Jace is good because of his flexibilty, a sentiment you seem to be echoing.

I'm not seeing where the huge discrepancy between his viewpoint and yours lies. Quote copied below, with my emphasis added.

No, the reason Jace is good is because it can also control the board.  Bouncing Tinker targets, Dark Confidant, Oath targets, Fish creatures, or even Lodestone Golem is something that very few other cards can do without being situational.  We play cards like Repeal because they allow us to control the board without being dead in the control mirror.  Jace is that kind of card, and boy is it good at all of its functions.

Ya that's why I backed off the "NOT THIS."  Rico isn't saying Jace is primarily bounce.  I'm making a point that is more in response to other people attempting to categorize Jace as "bounce" or "card draw."  I probably shouldn't have quoted the person who agrees with me.

[Gekoratel]

I actually Value Jace as a win condition.  If you're playing a control mirror, you actually can Ultimate them pretty easily.    I value it because I don't need to add extra dead cards to my deck in order to not lose to Sadistic Sacrament.

Soly are your opponents conserving fetch-lands to not get locked under Fate-Seal mode.  And how often does it come up that they have two strong cards in a row after you fate sealed to the bottom.  Most of my uses with Jace has been bouncing or brainstorming but I have a feeling I'm not using him 100% in Vintage.

[swawagon]

I'm usually only Fatesealing when I have a full or near full grip and have the game pretty well controlled, and I just have to get around to winning.

This is not the end all but kind of the guide I use:

Unsummon: if you are behind or when bouncing a creature is obviously to your advantage. Such as returning a cheated in fatty, or something like Dark Confidant or Goblin Welder that is dangerous across the table, or if lethal damage in on board.

Brainstorm: to fill your hand, and/or to to clean-up your hand

Fateseal: when you are in pretty good control of the game and have a full or near full hand. Usually not before you have at least one online counterspell.

[M.Solymossy]

Soly are your opponents conserving fetch-lands to not get locked under Fate-Seal mode.  And how often does it come up that they have two strong cards in a row after you fate sealed to the bottom.  Most of my uses with Jace has been bouncing or brainstorming but I have a feeling I'm not using him 100% in Vintage.

I usually brainstorm with him, but in so many decks you can very easily set up hands where you have answers to everything they have in hand, and then some.  For example, I am playing a Tezzeret deck with FOW, Drain, Thoughtseize.  Often when I stick Jace, I can brainstorm, then counter their next threat.  Then I actively search for a Thoughtseize or more protection, and start ramping the Jace.  You so often get into situations where you know that even if they topdeck an insane card, you can counter it.   You get into these bottleneck games where you have jace, 4 or 5 counterspells, and your opponent has maybe 3 or 4 cards in hand.   You can counter all of them, so why would you brainstorm?   Often enough, people don't have a shuffle effect when you start Fatesealing them, too.

This is one thing I don't understand.  People use Jace to actively search for a win condition, not realizing that Jace itself IS a win condition.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

Soly are your opponents conserving fetch-lands to not get locked under Fate-Seal mode.  And how often does it come up that they have two strong cards in a row after you fate sealed to the bottom.  Most of my uses with Jace has been bouncing or brainstorming but I have a feeling I'm not using him 100% in Vintage.

I usually brainstorm with him, but in so many decks you can very easily set up hands where you have answers to everything they have in hand, and then some.  For example, I am playing a Tezzeret deck with FOW, Drain, Thoughtseize.  Often when I stick Jace, I can brainstorm, then counter their next threat.  Then I actively search for a Thoughtseize or more protection, and start ramping the Jace.  You so often get into situations where you know that even if they topdeck an insane card, you can counter it.   You get into these bottleneck games where you have jace, 4 or 5 counterspells, and your opponent has maybe 3 or 4 cards in hand.   You can counter all of them, so why would you brainstorm?   Often enough, people don't have a shuffle effect when you start Fatesealing them, too.

This is one thing I don't understand.  People use Jace to actively search for a win condition, not realizing that Jace itself IS a win condition.

If your hand is 5 counterspells and your opponent only has 3 cards in their hand does it really matter what you're doing with Jace?

[nineisnoone]

Are you fatesealing the opponent or yourself?  I would generally prefer to fateseal myself rather than the opponent.  It's like a Dark Confidant (since you see 1 card deeper) that has 4 power ("wins" in 5 turns) which is pretty good.  Plus, that puts Jace to 13 so he's still around after you use his ultimate.

But I would only start that up if I had a good hand/situation and at least 1 card up on the opponent.

Soly are your opponents conserving fetch-lands to not get locked under Fate-Seal mode.  And how often does it come up that they have two strong cards in a row after you fate sealed to the bottom.  Most of my uses with Jace has been bouncing or brainstorming but I have a feeling I'm not using him 100% in Vintage.

I usually brainstorm with him, but in so many decks you can very easily set up hands where you have answers to everything they have in hand, and then some.  For example, I am playing a Tezzeret deck with FOW, Drain, Thoughtseize.  Often when I stick Jace, I can brainstorm, then counter their next threat.  Then I actively search for a Thoughtseize or more protection, and start ramping the Jace.  You so often get into situations where you know that even if they topdeck an insane card, you can counter it.   You get into these bottleneck games where you have jace, 4 or 5 counterspells, and your opponent has maybe 3 or 4 cards in hand.   You can counter all of them, so why would you brainstorm?   Often enough, people don't have a shuffle effect when you start Fatesealing them, too.

This is one thing I don't understand.  People use Jace to actively search for a win condition, not realizing that Jace itself IS a win condition.

If your hand is 5 counterspells and your opponent only has 3 cards in their hand does it really matter what you're doing with Jace?

Yes, because 5 counterspells alone can't win you the game.  

[vassago]

Yes, because 5 counterspells alone can't win you the game.  

lol

[nineisnoone]

Yes, because 5 counterspells alone can't win you the game.  

lol

Do you disagree?  Or should people cut those Oath of Druids for REBs?

[Razvan]

In Toronto, where everyone and their grandmother comes in packing 4 Null Rods and always starts the game with one in play, Jace is excellent.

Tezzeret wins the game if allowed to survive one turn (big if), and the Time Vault is allowed to survive one turn (another, bigger if). Not saying that Tezz is bad, or is great, or whatever, just that the effect it provides most of the time immediately (nothing!) isn't exactly stunning. Again, everyone always complains about stuff NOT doing something when it comes into play (the whole Oath debacle), but Tezz is the king of doing nothing when it comes into play, except cost a card and a bunch of mana.

The fact that Jace can affect the table immediately is a great plus, anyway, especially in places where Tezz just gets hated out. Jace can come in, bounce something, maybe live a turn to brainstorm, or bounce again.