Sperling's 5cStax

[matt_sperling]

Here is my current list.  This deck is giving me better results than I've ever had with a Shop deck, so I figured I'd start a thread for discussion.  

// Lands
    2  Bazaar of Baghdad
    4  City of Brass
    3  Gemstone Mine
    4  Mishra's Workshop
    1  Strip Mine
    1  Tolarian Academy
    3  Wasteland

// Creatures
    1  Duplicant
    4  Goblin Welder
    4  Lodestone Golem
    1  Sundering Titan

// Spells
    1  Ancestral Recall
    1  Balance
    1  Crop Rotation
    4  Chalice of the Void
    3  Crucible of Worlds
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Mana Vault
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Sapphire
    3  Null Rod
    3  Smokestack
    3  Sphere of Resistance
    4  Tangle Wire
    1  Trinisphere

NOTABLE ABSENCES:  Tinker, DT, VampT, Mox Jet.

Tinker DT VT were all slow, but powerful effect.  I've cut them but left in the colored effects that are easy to cast and impact the game immediately.  This started as an experiment to increase consistency and speed, and it worked, so far at least.  The temptation initially was to play "all the good stuff."  A card like Tinker is very tempting, and could be good in another list with all 5 moxes and no Null Rods, but it just wasn't very good for me.  When I played without Null Rods, I would lose to Oath and Tezz, and when I played with Null Rods, Tinker was just too hard to cast.  3 mana is so many when Lodestone makes it 4, Sphere makes it 4, and Shops can't help.  The card felt like it cost 5 mana in normal-deck terms.  

SIDEBOARD:
I'm trying new ideas here too, so nothing is set in stone, but I want to try something like:
2 Swords to Plowshares
4 Nature's claim
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
2 Crop Rotation
3 Bojuka Bog
2 Thorn of Amethyst OR Orim's Chant (for ritual decks, Thorn is a traditional choice, but I was thinking Chant could be amazing when they get off their 1 Recall effect, ritual a few times, then have to pass the turn and watch you replay your lock.  Thoughts?)

[TheShop]

You should try demonic consultation for an immediate tutor effect to replace vamp.  3 copies of locks supports consultation.

Good looking list.  I would drop Balance before D-tutor or Tinker.

[forcethewill]

why run sphere?  thorn seems better with 10 creatures main.

[d0rsal]

why not run a tutor effect in place of the crop rot?  that would @ least give you the flexibility to grab something else instead of the strip, etc if you needed to.  just a thought...

[pierce]

finally, the correct # of tangle wires! i believe my main critique of your articles' build was the iffy count on those.

good in well timed multiples.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

Now that you've cut Tinker and the black tutors, do maindeck Balance and Ancestral, in combination with 2x Swords to Plowshares and 1 Ray of Revelation in the sideboard, really make it worth running the 5c mana base?  I think you've been taking 5c Stax in an interesting direction, but that seems to be moving it closer and closer to R/G. 

[matt_sperling]

Now that you've cut Tinker and the black tutors, do maindeck Balance and Ancestral, in combination with 2x Swords to Plowshares and 1 Ray of Revelation in the sideboard, really make it worth running the 5c mana base?  I think you've been taking 5c Stax in an interesting direction, but that seems to be moving it closer and closer to R/G. 

I've thought the same thing, but a) the Recall, Balance and the sideboard matter, b) the cost is minimal to play 5c lands instead of other lands. 

why not run a tutor effect in place of the crop rot?  that would @ least give you the flexibility to grab something else instead of the strip, etc if you needed to.  just a thought...

Workshop now is often much better than workshop next turn.  Strip mine now can be worlds different than Strip you next turn.  I've found the trade-off to be worth it.  I've made a number of speed for strength trade-offs in an attempt to lock them out as fast as I can.  I have found the deck to still be reliable even with these changes.

why run sphere?  thorn seems better with 10 creatures main.

respect for Fish, and to some extent Bob.  If it was just Bob Thorn would probably get the nod, but if the opponent has pridemages, goyfs, or (gasp) trygon, the sphere becomes critical.  I admittedly don't test against Fish as much as I should, so I try to be careful.

[madmanmike25]

I'm trying to figure out which decks your list has a favorable matchup against and I'm at a loss.  Could you please tell us what decks you are beating with this list?

So *esentially* you think running 3 Null Rods > Tinker, DT, and Vamp?  Is Null Rod really that powerful for you?  To me you've take out 3/5 of the reasons (Balance and Recall being the other 2) to run a multi-colored list over just running mono-red for the Welders.

You run 2 prime Tinker targets (Dupe+Titan) and don't run Tinker or tutors to help you find them.

I find it really hard to believe you want to run that many artifacts and omit Mox Jet.  Oh wait, you have Null Rod...

Crop Rotation has always been good in a deck with Crucibles imo, nice to see it here.  Kinda makes me think about how good DT and Vamp are to find Strip Mine (OR ANY OTHER CARD IN THE DECK) as well.

I don't mean any offense when I say this, but it appears to me that this list could use some tweaks.  Null Rod and dare I say, even Lodestone Golem have all been useful when I have played against multi-colored Stax.

[matt_sperling]

I'm trying to figure out which decks your list has a favorable matchup against and I'm at a loss.  Could you please tell us what decks you are beating with this list?

Top 6 list from latest menendian market report:
Tezz
Fish
Shop Aggro
Oath
Dredge
TPS

Tezz, Oath, and TPS I can tell you are favorable.  Fish, Other Shop, & Dredge I'm not as sure, but my changes are good in Shop mirrors where non-artifact spells are very very hard to cast and they won't be as hedged against Null Rod as I am.  I would estimate I'm favored in a Shop mirror, but I could be wrong.  Dredge is dredge, my changes don't have a tremendous impact maindeck, and I'm trying a crop-bog plan post board. 

Fish is a concern, I know the Tinker can be a godsend in that matchup in particular.  If anyone plays fish, provide some insight on what cards are best out of the sideboard. 

Tezz Oath and TPS should make up a large enough % of any serious metagame that I want to be sure I can beat them consistently.  I'm going to have to give up a few points against fish to do so, but hopefully having access to Balance and Swords means that I've got a decent chance there. 

Going to R/G or Red Stax takes away these powerful anti-creature options, and for little benefit (my lands get a little better, I can play Magus if I want to, etc.)

[Demonic Attorney]

Null Rod is an interesting choice.  I've always thought that Shop decks that can incorporate Null Rod are far more dangerous than those that can't.  It's another way to completely blank an opponent's acceleration if played early, and it shuts off the best combo-finish win condition in the format.

Can you talk a bit more about your Oath matchup and why it's favorable?  The Welder/Golem package seems like a liability without Duplicant on hand, and Tangle Wire is a temporary solution at best if they're Oathing. 

Obviously you have a lot more answers post-board in the form of Nature's Claim and Swords/Balance.  Without having tested your list, or even knowing all that much about Shops generally, I suspect this is where your confidence against Oath comes from.  Am I right in that?  Do you bring in all those cards?  If so, what do you cut?   The creatures?  If so, do you find yourself struggling to finish off your opponents within the allotted round time without those clocks?

[madmanmike25]

I'm going to have to give up a few points against fish to do so, but hopefully having access to Balance and Swords means that I've got a decent chance there. 

You don't think finding Balance is going to be tricky without any tutors?  *hint hint*

Have you thought about taking out 1 Bazaar?  Seems to me if you put a tutor in that slot, you still have Crop which could help find it if need be.  Since mana cost is relevent, DT would be the first card I would put back in.

Another thought to consider if you add Tinker;  Platy Angel is pretty unexpected game 1 and is a great answer to Oath and Ichorid.  I know some of the newer Ichorid (or we call it Dredge now?) decks run Claim in the main, and this is where Chalice and Spheres shine even brighter against a deck that was originally prized on being manaless.  I've honestly won games against Ichorid with Spheres because they were unable to cast Claim.

Hey since u run Crop Rotations sb as well, try Tabernacle for Ichorid.  Sometimes Bukkake Bog comes down too late.

[matt_sperling]

Null Rod is an interesting choice.  I've always thought that Shop decks that can incorporate Null Rod are far more dangerous than those that can't.  It's another way to completely blank an opponent's acceleration if played early, and it shuts off the best combo-finish win condition in the format.

Can you talk a bit more about your Oath matchup and why it's favorable?  The Welder/Golem package seems like a liability without Duplicant on hand, and Tangle Wire is a temporary solution at best if they're Oathing.  

Obviously you have a lot more answers post-board in the form of Nature's Claim and Swords/Balance.  Without having tested your list, or even knowing all that much about Shops generally, I suspect this is where your confidence against Oath comes from.  Am I right in that?  Do you bring in all those cards?  If so, what do you cut?   The creatures?  If so, do you find yourself struggling to finish off your opponents within the allotted round time without those clocks?

The games play out in a variety of ways pre-board against Oath.  If they win the die roll and play turn 1 Oath with Orchard, I'm dead.  Even if they just turn 1 Oath, I better have a Smokestack resolve turn 1 or 2 to have a chance.  But sometimes you win the die roll, and sometimes they don't have turn 1 Oath when they win the roll.  In these games, there are a number of things you can do to win.  

On the play, it is pretty easy to keep Oath off the board.  Chalice 0 or Null Rod means they won't be getting turn 1 Oath, and a Tangle Wire as a follow up play makes every subsequent turn just like turn 1.  4 Chalice 3 Null Rod is a critical piece of the puzzle.  Lets add in Sphere, Trinisphere, and the probability of a turn 1 Lodestone, and all of a sudden it becomes pretty unlikely they are going to turn 1 Oath you on the draw.  This illustrates why I wouldn't try to put a Mox Monkey in my deck and pretend its a Null Rod.  What about turn 2 Oath though?  Well, waste/strip, any Sphere effect, Chalice 2, or a Smokestack [edit: or Wire] all get you out of the woods.  This is the formula for beating Oath on the play game 1, and I've found it to be effective.  You often have a Null Rod and a Chalice for 0, or two chalices, so a FoW doesn't get them there.  As for them Forcing and then untapping and playing Mox+Oath, consider how powerful this draw is, how rare it might be, and whether some other strategy would have beat this powerful draw anyway.  

As I said earlier, when you're on the draw, you don't have as many tools to work with (Chalice now needs to come in at 2), and you have less time to work with as well.  That said, Tangle Wire and Null Rod are still powerful tools on the draw, and the reason these numbers are as high as they are (4 wire 3 rod) is because I want more play on the draw than a deck like MUD tends to have.  

These explanations serve to explain my card choices, as I'm also explaining the Oath matchup.  Notice how critical the early turns are, and how little help a Tutor effect provides.  If my Crop Rotation is a Vamp Tutor, I might have just "given away" the play I won on the die roll.  Now instead of fetching my Shop and going to work, I've gotta give the opponent a turn and cross my fingers.  I've found tutors to be a "good on paper, not in practice" deck building choice.  

After sideboard, you've still got alot of game from the above lines of play, but now you know when you're on the draw and can sideboard out suboptimal cards like Chalice on the draw.  I'm not sure if the 4 Nature's Claim is correct, as if you play, say, rays of revelation and ancient grudges, you can chalice for 1 and blank THEIR nature's claims.  I just can't claim to have enough post-sideboard games under my belt, under each configuration, to know if this is profitable.  I like a Claim over a Ray/Grudge in general because having a hand clogged with Ray of Revelations leaves you vulnerable to Vault/Key and unable to kill a Sol Ring if you need to.

As for whether to board out creatures, and if so how many, I'm still working the numbers out myself.  That said, I tend to not worry about my creature count, trusting my enchantment removal and lock pieces to keep Oath in check.  I take out at least 2 Welders, and possibly all 4, on the draw, since they might turn 1 Oath and because Welder is a little slow on the draw all things considered.  I don't bring in Swords against Oath.  They are probably on 2x Terastadon 1xRobot or just 2x Terastadon, making it too hard to win the game with a card like Swords.  They might Tinker up their DSC, but you've gotta live with that risk.  

EDIT addition:  In general, against Oath, when you're attacking their Oath with enchantment removal and lock pieces, rather than doing something like Gargadon, you shouldn't be as worried about your own creature count.  You've picked your battle, and while having creatures will definitely hurt you some games, you must be careful not to cripple your own deck (e.g. siding out Lodestones, your best "clock and lock") in order to fight BOTH battles, the one over Oath and the one over creatures.  Add in the fact that the opponent might be planning on Show and Tell instead of Oath, and siding out Lodestone starts to seem less and less wise.

[Twaun007]

I've always thought that Shop decks that can incorporate Null Rod are far more dangerous than those that can't. It's another way to completely blank an opponent's acceleration if played early, and it shuts off the best combo-finish win condition in the format.

This is completely true and I couldn't agree more. Null Rod provides an unbelievable affect on game state for just a mere 2cc investment.

Can you talk a bit more about your Oath matchup and why it's favorable?  The Welder/Golem package seems like a liability without Duplicant on hand, and Tangle Wire is a temporary solution at best if they're Oathing.

I would love to hear more about this. I pretty much packed up my Workshops since I've had an unbelievably hard time trying to combat that silly 2cc green enchantment. I believe the nail in the coffin for Workshops was the printing of Terastadon. With Oath incorporating Terastadon we no longer can bank on racing Oath post activation.

I'm not even going to start on how powerful Nature's Claim is in Oath either.

EDIT: Good ninjutsu above.  

[matt_sperling]

I've always thought that Shop decks that can incorporate Null Rod are far more dangerous than those that can't. It's another way to completely blank an opponent's acceleration if played early, and it shuts off the best combo-finish win condition in the format.

This is completely true and I couldn't agree more. Null Rod provides an unbelievable affect on game state for just a mere 2cc investment.

Can you talk a bit more about your Oath matchup and why it's favorable?  The Welder/Golem package seems like a liability without Duplicant on hand, and Tangle Wire is a temporary solution at best if they're Oathing.

I would love to hear more about this. I pretty much packed up my Workshops since I've had an unbelievably hard time trying to combat that silly 2cc green enchantment. I believe the nail in the coffin for Workshops was the printing of Terastadon. With Oath incorporating Terastadon we no longer can bank on racing Oath post activation.

I'm not even going to start on how powerful Nature's Claim is in Oath either.

Something to keep in mind is not being discouraged by their "god draws" of turn 1 Oath on the play or Force + turn 1 Oath, etc.  No tournament is structured in 1-game matches.  Stax has the tools to make life sufficiently difficult for them when they don't have a perfect draw.  See above.

[Twaun007]

I've always thought that Shop decks that can incorporate Null Rod are far more dangerous than those that can't. It's another way to completely blank an opponent's acceleration if played early, and it shuts off the best combo-finish win condition in the format.

This is completely true and I couldn't agree more. Null Rod provides an unbelievable affect on game state for just a mere 2cc investment.

Can you talk a bit more about your Oath matchup and why it's favorable?  The Welder/Golem package seems like a liability without Duplicant on hand, and Tangle Wire is a temporary solution at best if they're Oathing.

I would love to hear more about this. I pretty much packed up my Workshops since I've had an unbelievably hard time trying to combat that silly 2cc green enchantment. I believe the nail in the coffin for Workshops was the printing of Terastadon. With Oath incorporating Terastadon we no longer can bank on racing Oath post activation.

I'm not even going to start on how powerful Nature's Claim is in Oath either.

Something to keep in mind is not being discouraged by their "god draws" of turn 1 Oath on the play or Force + turn 1 Oath, etc.  No tournament is structured in 1-game matches.  Stax has the tools to make life sufficiently difficult for them when they don't have a perfect draw.  See above.

It's not Oath's god draws I fear. It's the fact that Oath's win condition just cost's 2 mana and a turn. The way I see it, we have 4 ways to combat Oath.

1. Stop Oath from resolving-
Outside of CotV @ 2 this is very difficult. Like I stated before, it's just a 2cc investment for Oath to pretty much seal the deal. Also, cards like Jester's Cap are way to slow and Oath now has Vault/Key/Tezzeret to help against that tactic.

2. Deal with Oath after it resolves, but before it's triggered-
In theory Nature's Claim should do this, but in reality it doesn't. How do we play Nature's Claim in a deck packed with Null Rods, Sphere's and other cards that prevent spells from being played? Remember, unlike the rest of the deck, Nature's Claim does not benefit from Mishra's Workshop.

3. Deal with it post trigger-
This used to be a strong strategy before Terastadon. We had Ensnaring Bridge, Maze of Ith, and Smokestack + Tangle Wire etc.... Now our stuff just gets blown up by a rampaging Elephant.  

4. Win before they do-
We can live the dream too.

These explanations serve to explain my card choices, as I'm also explaining the Oath matchup.  Notice how critical the early turns are, and how little help a Tutor effect provides.  If my Crop Rotation is a Vamp Tutor, I might have just "given away" the play I won on the die roll.  Now instead of fetching my Shop and going to work, I've gotta give the opponent a turn and cross my fingers.  I've found tutors to be a "good on paper, not in practice" deck building choice.  

A point I would like to stress about your exclusion of tutors is the fact that you have Chalice of The Void in the main. A lot of times people forget that CotV set on a certain number will negate multiple cards in your deck and Workshop decks cannot afford to have a single dead draw in any match. Another point I'd like to make is your ability to keep up with a Smokestack set at one for the entire game. Sorceries and Instants will sometimes force you into awkward positions that make you unable to win the war of attrition.

[matt_sperling]

It's not Oath's god draws I fear. It's the fact that Oath's win condition just cost's 2 mana and a turn. The way I see it, we have 4 ways to combat Oath.

1. Stop Oath from resolving-
Outside of CotV @ 2 this is very difficult. Like I stated before, it's just a 2cc investment for Oath to pretty much seal the deal. Also, cards like Jester's Cap are way to slow and Oath now has Vault/Key/Tezzeret to help against that tactic.

2. Deal with Oath after it resolves, but before it's triggered-
In theory Nature's Claim should do this, but in reality it doesn't. How do we play Nature's Claim in a deck packed with Null Rods, Sphere's and other cards that prevent spells from being played? Remember, unlike the rest of the deck, Nature's Claim does not benefit from Mishra's Workshop.

3. Deal with it post trigger-
This used to be a strong strategy before Terastadon. We had Ensnaring Bridge, Maze of Ith, and Smokestack + Tangle Wire etc.... Now our stuff just gets blown up by a rampaging Elephant. 

4. Win before they do-
We can live the dream too.

An Oath with no Orchard can lose to Smokestack even if you have a welder out, since they have a 66% chance (ok its a little lower given Brainstorm) of hitting NON-elephant creature type when they Oath, and they won't be able to oath a 2nd time, giving us a couple of turns to find Wire.  Even WITH Orchard they can easily lose to a Smokestack since you can just sacrifice the token and Wasteland the Orchard (unless they had enough mana to Oath and leave Orchard untapped, and you didn't have a Waste untapped).  These are just a couple of ways it can play out.  You might not have any creature presence at all, and be able to lock them even though they have an Oath out. 

More importantly, it is more difficult to resolve an Oath than perhaps you anticipate.  I've found it pretty easy to keep Oath of the table when I'm on the play game 1, and games 2 and 3 you still have those same lock pieces, but now with the bonus of 4x Claim 1x Ray.  Our Sphere's can make the Claims difficult to play in spots, but these are the same spots in which Oath is likely uncastable. 

There are no certainties as we approach the Oath matchup, but I think my Stax list is hedged in the right direction to win that matchup.

[TheShop]

I have an unorthodox idea here:

Back in the day cron ran divert instead of REB to answer some harmful spells.  I think a few copies of Spell Pierce in the side would be enough to counter bounce spells an possibly early oaths.

[Smmenen]

i agree with the cutting of the tutors.   The last time I played 5c stax was last Summer, mostly just to try it out, and the tutors did shockingly little.   I mean, what are you tutoring up?   Trinisphere?   Strip Mine?  Balance?   Workshop?  Are those cards good enough to win the game these days?  No single card is good enough any more, which is why I think that tutors can be cut.  

[Smmenen]

I've always thought that Shop decks that can incorporate Null Rod are far more dangerous than those that can't. It's another way to completely blank an opponent's acceleration if played early, and it shuts off the best combo-finish win condition in the format.

This is completely true and I couldn't agree more. Null Rod provides an unbelievable affect on game state for just a mere 2cc investment.

Can you talk a bit more about your Oath matchup and why it's favorable?  The Welder/Golem package seems like a liability without Duplicant on hand, and Tangle Wire is a temporary solution at best if they're Oathing.

I would love to hear more about this. I pretty much packed up my Workshops since I've had an unbelievably hard time trying to combat that silly 2cc green enchantment. I believe the nail in the coffin for Workshops was the printing of Terastadon. With Oath incorporating Terastadon we no longer can bank on racing Oath post activation.

I'm not even going to start on how powerful Nature's Claim is in Oath either.

EDIT: Good ninjutsu above.  

Seal of Cleansing, Aura Fracture, and Greater Gargadon are all answers.   In the past, I've run 2X Seal in my Stax list, and it makes sense i this environment, since it murders Time Vault and Oath.   

[TheShop]

Seal is far too slow in the current environment, period. And it is a colored spell with a cost of 2 and a weak effect- do you really want to pay more to your additional speeds for the one shot effect????????????

Also, tutors end up grabbing missing lock piece far more often than bomb spell...I think the evidence of this would be the utter failure of your "4 crucible, I will crop rotation for strip mine and win the game".dec

[Smmenen]

Seal is far too slow in the current environment, period. And it is a colored spell with a cost of 2 and a weak effect- do you really want to pay more to your additional speeds for the one shot effect????????????

Also, tutors end up grabbing missing lock piece far more often than bomb spell...I think the evidence of this would be the utter failure of your "4 crucible, I will crop rotation for strip mine and win the game".dec

Seal is a turn one play: Land, mox Seal.  How is that too slow?  It's also insane in the Workshop mirror.   Seals are good in Beats decks for the same reason.  They are anti-Oath, Time Vault, and Workshops, which is like most of the field. 

[d0rsal]

why not run a tutor effect in place of the crop rot?  that would @ least give you the flexibility to grab something else instead of the strip, etc if you needed to.  just a thought...

Workshop now is often much better than workshop next turn.  Strip mine now can be worlds different than Strip you next turn.  I've found the trade-off to be worth it.  I've made a number of speed for strength trade-offs in an attempt to lock them out as fast as I can.  I have found the deck to still be reliable even with these changes.

Matt i agree w/ you about the now being better then nxt turn, was just thinking that DT or even an eot vamp tutor would let you get anything you wanted out of your deck as opposed to crop rot just being able to get you a land.  definitely not a hack on your deck, just a general comment more then anything

[Troy_Costisick]

Seal is far too slow in the current environment, period.

Well, then I guess Spheres are too slow too since they have the same cmc.  Might as well cut them.

And it is a colored spell with a cost of 2 and a weak effect- do you really want to pay more to your additional speeds for the one shot effect????????????

Yeah, playing colored spells in a 5c Stax, that sounds like it would be hard. 

C'mon, seriously?  Seal of Cleansing/Seal of Primordium are terrific cards in Vintage and have been since the Tez era began.  Dismissing them so off handidly is silly.  They are versitile and powerful against a field full of artifacts and enchantments.

[Tha Gunslinga]

Well, then I guess Spheres are too slow too since they have the same cmc.  Might as well cut them.

So you're saying that and are the same?  Because your deck can cast a turn 1 Sphere in many more ways than it can cast a turn 1 Seal.

[internalrust]

i believe the key to the deck is incorporating 4 chalice of the void and 3 null rod the reason being, if you have a first turn chalice and a first turn null rod you can bait with null rod with chalice back up and if they don't stop the lay next turn is chalice on 2 which shuts off most of their deck anyway.

[TheShop]

Seal is far too slow in the current environment, period.

Well, then I guess Spheres are too slow too since they have the same cmc.  Might as well cut them.

And it is a colored spell with a cost of 2 and a weak effect- do you really want to pay more to your additional speeds for the one shot effect????????????

Yeah, playing colored spells in a 5c Stax, that sounds like it would be hard. 

C'mon, seriously?  Seal of Cleansing/Seal of Primordium are terrific cards in Vintage and have been since the Tez era began.  Dismissing them so off handidly is silly.  They are versitile and powerful against a field full of artifacts and enchantments.

I am simply saying that there are more effective hate cards than seal and that it is more difficult to cast than many of the artifact hate cards when under multiple spheres.  I personally like the versatilty of colored spells, but you need to decide which effects are potent enough at their increased costs.  I religiously maindecked a single seal go years and it was always slow.  Is blowing up that one enchant or artifact worth an entire turn's efforts???  I am not sure.  If the only thing the seal is really there for is additional hate for a resolved Oath of Druids or time vault(which you are already strong against-just vault).  I would rather board strong against oath and beat tezz with the regular maindeck.  If you are attacking my argument on the costs of the spell we need to discuss demonic tutor(which sperling just cut), balance(cut by NYSE), and tinker: which has a far more powerful effect.

[TheShop]

Seal is far too slow in the current environment, period. And it is a colored spell with a cost of 2 and a weak effect- do you really want to pay more to your additional speeds for the one shot effect????????????

Also, tutors end up grabbing missing lock piece far more often than bomb spell...I think the evidence of this would be the utter failure of your "4 crucible, I will crop rotation for strip mine and win the game".dec

Seal is a turn one play: Land, mox Seal.  How is that too slow?  It's also insane in the Workshop mirror.   Seals are good in Beats decks for the same reason.  They are anti-Oath, Time Vault, and Workshops, which is like most of the field. 

Sorry for double post but I did not see this:

Why would you want to play seal on turn one in the propsed deck featuring rod, chalice, and sphere????  Seal is not a lock piece.  So in reality, you would want it on turn 2 or later when other pieces are already in play...which = wasting a turn to pop a single permanent...I don't understand how you can say this is good on the one hand while claiming that a maindeck sundering Titan is bad on the other hand...they come down on similar turns(hardcast or tinker) and one is obviously more threatening than another.

[matt_sperling]

Seal is far too slow in the current environment, period. And it is a colored spell with a cost of 2 and a weak effect- do you really want to pay more to your additional speeds for the one shot effect????????????

Also, tutors end up grabbing missing lock piece far more often than bomb spell...I think the evidence of this would be the utter failure of your "4 crucible, I will crop rotation for strip mine and win the game".dec

Seal is a turn one play: Land, mox Seal.  How is that too slow?  It's also insane in the Workshop mirror.   Seals are good in Beats decks for the same reason.  They are anti-Oath, Time Vault, and Workshops, which is like most of the field. 

Sorry for double post but I did not see this:

Why would you want to play seal on turn one in the propsed deck featuring rod, chalice, and sphere????  Seal is not a lock piece.  So in reality, you would want it on turn 2 or later when other pieces are already in play...which = wasting a turn to pop a single permanent...I don't understand how you can say this is good on the one hand while claiming that a maindeck sundering Titan is bad on the other hand...they come down on similar turns(hardcast or tinker) and one is obviously more threatening than another.

This doesn't add much, but.. Seal of Primordium doesn't strike me as "bad" or as anything amazing.  Its something to keep in mind, though I don't feel the need to add it right now.  I like that it can sneak under something like Chalice for 2 or a Sphere before those come out, but other times it will be harder to cast than a Nature's Claim.  Neither Claim nor Seal is strictly better than the other, a mix could even be correct. 

[Oath of Happy]

Have you considered cutting Sundering Titan?  Without Tinker and only 2 Bazaars it seems like it can be dead pretty often.  I would think that Tinker, Smokestack number 4, or another land would benefit the deck.

[Smmenen]

Seal is far too slow in the current environment, period. And it is a colored spell with a cost of 2 and a weak effect- do you really want to pay more to your additional speeds for the one shot effect????????????

Also, tutors end up grabbing missing lock piece far more often than bomb spell...I think the evidence of this would be the utter failure of your "4 crucible, I will crop rotation for strip mine and win the game".dec

Seal is a turn one play: Land, mox Seal.  How is that too slow?  It's also insane in the Workshop mirror.   Seals are good in Beats decks for the same reason.  They are anti-Oath, Time Vault, and Workshops, which is like most of the field. 

Sorry for double post but I did not see this:

Why would you want to play seal on turn one in the propsed deck featuring rod, chalice, and sphere????  Seal is not a lock piece.  So in reality, you would want it on turn 2 or later when other pieces are already in play...which = wasting a turn to pop a single permanent...I don't understand how you can say this is good on the one hand while claiming that a maindeck sundering Titan is bad on the other hand...they come down on similar turns(hardcast or tinker) and one is obviously more threatening than another.

This doesn't add much, but.. Seal of Primordium doesn't strike me as "bad" or as anything amazing.  Its something to keep in mind, though I don't feel the need to add it right now.  I like that it can sneak under something like Chalice for 2 or a Sphere before those come out, but other times it will be harder to cast than a Nature's Claim.  Neither Claim nor Seal is strictly better than the other, a mix could even be correct. 

It's a minor point, but if you run Seal, run  Cleansing, as it can kill a Sphinx.