Sadistic Sacrament & TPS

[dillonkbase]

I am a new member here so I apologize if this post isn't up to snuff... anyway

I have been doing a bit of reading and am looking to get my hands dirty in vintage magic... I just sold my online collection to do so... anyway I have always been amazed by the unforgiving power that storm decks can bring, and there was a bit of writing about when side-boarding against oath,  Sadistic Sacrament, can be used to remove oaths creatures and just end the game there... now obviously oath has moved on with Jace and Tezz, vault, and some other solutions, but when the TPS deck has to face its own weapon,  Sadistic Sacrament, my initial take is that its pretty much game over. 

I mean if sacrament takes your tinker critter and your tendrils, even if you run 2, where are you left?  Maybe I am missing something, but in a game where a single card from the sideboard can do that much splash damage, I feel a little lost looking for a solution.

Anyway thanks for your time, I'm probably missing somthing

[serracollector]

Well depending on your build you could still have:
Jace
Tezz
4 x Confidant
Wish's

or a random trinket mage.

[Lemnear]

First ... welcome on board dude!

SadSac on the stack could be a game-ender like many other cards are too so that's nothing special, but as a tps-player you shouldn't be too thrilled about that single card for some reasons. I'll pick up 3 (obvious ones) for now...

1. The mana cost of SadSac is   . That means you face this cards in mirrors or suicide decks (Dark Ritual, anyone? No?).
2. The possible meta-game. In the beginning it was hot to play a set in mono-black hate to steal quick victories against storm and oath but aside form that matchups it was like a ritual driven Earwig Squad, which does nothing leathal to Fish, MUD or Dredge, which are more common than tps today (...I guess)
3. Your protection is Force of Will and Duress so you should be able to defend yourself against it (as I remember Steve suggested 2 SadSac in the SB in his latest tps-list)

If you still feel bad you can play some additional kill conditions in your SB or MB like negator, dark confidant, Tezz etc.

top picks vs. tps are tendrils, the robot and time vault ... the rest is up to your build as serra said.

[honestabe]

I just sold my online collection

Good


Anyway, many people here have mixed opinions about Sadistic Sacrament in TPS, and it's been debated to death.  For the most part, I'm against it.  Many decks have such a high threat density, that often, burning a tutor and a ritual to use Sacrament can set you back just as much as it sets them back.

Fish:  It's horrible here for obvious reasons

Oath:  Many Oath decks run 3 creatures main and one in the sideboard, as well as time vault---> voltaic Key, Tezzeret and Jace.  i wouldn't board it in here

Confidant Tezz:  If you resolve it, you can take thier time vault, Robot and Tezzeret.  The problem is that thier confidants and Jace, if they use it can punish the tempo loss you just took from playing a ritual and tutor, if you needed it.  I wouldn't board it in here

Remora Tezz:  If you can take their time vault, robot and tezz, they're in trouble (if the don't play Jace) I might board it in here

Shops: Terrible for obvious reasons

Combo:  This is really the only matchup where it's truly good.  I'd definitly board it in here

[dangerlinto]

I just sold my online collection

Good

LOL

dillonk is just impatient.

[Killane]

I agree with the genral tone of the commentary so far. Sacrament seem poorly positioned in the current metagame and I haven't seen it in many top 8 sideboards recently. Sure it can be a game ending card against you (though most TPS masters are advocating some amount of additional cards in the bord such as Dark Confidant that can serve as additional wincons), but so is Key-Vault or (usually) YawgWin. Just focus on what matters in your matchups, save duresses and FoW for plays that really counter, and you should be able to protect yourself from it.

I personally advocate 3 Bobs on the Sideboard. They're great vs Shop decks, strong vs control (though I'd only board them in if you are expecting Sacrament type effects since there isn't enough to take out form the maindeck normally), and they do serve as wincons 3-5 vs a deck that employs heavy Sacrament effects against you in game 3.

Don't board out your robot though, even if it's DSC. Yes flipping it to Bob sucks, but it will rarely kill you outright in these type of matchups, it's your best wincon vs Shops, and the odds of flipping it are rather low. You'll win many more games off it than you will loose flipping it.

just my 2 cents.

[InfectedMushroom]

I am currently running 2 Sadistic Sacrament in my TPS SB and I like having them there. Even against Oath which packs 3 creatures, Time Vault, Tezzeret and Jace, it is useful. My theory is that if I even take the creatures, I have just made all of the Oaths dead cards as well. I can see how blowing a Dark Ritual to cast it can be seen as not advancing the TPS game plan, however the virtual card advantage seems worth it to me.

If you strip out the creatures, you can just focus on keeping Time Vault off the table while you set up your perfect hand.

Sadistic Sacrament also obviously has value against the Tezzeret and combo matchups. When we are looking for sideboard cards, we look for cards that are useful against multiple types of decks. Sadistic Sacrament is this type of card. For a small investment of a Dark Ritual, we can either win the game on the spot, or force our opponent into a much slower gameplan. We will always win that race.

[Ten-Ten]

Welcome

When Sadistic Sacrament first came out I was a bit nervous but as mentioned before, It sees little to no play.
Even when I do see it, it's being played in the mirror. In which case I am currently testing out Bribery in the SB. I like Bribery but I honestly do not see it sticking in my SB for long.
 

Just focus on what matters in your matchups, save duresses and FoW for plays that really matter, and you should be able to protect yourself from it.

...I could not have said it better myself

[dillonkbase]

Thanks for all the feedback... I was mostly worried about seeing this card played against me... it made sense to me in my sb.  And it sounds like, I just need to have the confidence that TPS will have an answer or my opponent doesn't have the mana or the card itself, due to the low amount of play the card receives.

And Danger.... I'm not impatient.

[covetousrat]

I am not a great supporter of Sadistic in TPS sb against Oath. Here is the card I'll compare it to. Engineered Plague. Both costs 3 mana with Sadistic BBB, you normally have to blow a Ritual on it. Plague costs 2B and can be casts using Moxen. You have to casts both of these cards before the Oath player gets a turn with Oath in play.

Sadistic do have its advantages as it takes Planeswalkers and probably Show and tell from the game. Plague can be bounced and dies to Natures Claim. This is the big setback here. But I still prefer Plague as it kills Dark Confidants, spirit tokens, Noble Heirachs, Welders if anyone plays this, Metalworkers, Ichorids etc. I would play one of each.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

I am not a great supporter of Sadistic in TPS sb against Oath. Here is the card I'll compare it to. Engineered Plague. Both costs 3 mana with Sadistic BBB, you normally have to blow a Ritual on it. Plague costs 2B and can be casts using Moxen. You have to casts both of these cards before the Oath player gets a turn with Oath in play.

Sadistic do have its advantages as it takes Planeswalkers and probably Show and tell from the game. Plague can be bounced and dies to Natures Claim. This is the big setback here. But I still prefer Plague as it kills Dark Confidants, spirit tokens, Noble Heirachs, Welders if anyone plays this, Metalworkers, Ichorids etc. I would play one of each.

#1. Why would you run Engineered Plague in TPS ever?
#2. Why would you bring it in against Oath assuming you did run it?
#3. Engineered Plague? REALLY?

But I still prefer Plague as it kills Dark Confidants, spirit tokens, Noble Heirachs, Welders if anyone plays this, Metalworkers, Ichorids etc.

If you're wasting deck slots in TPS to kill any of those with Engineered Plague (except Metalworker which doesn't even die to it) you're doing it wrong. So very wrong...

As for Sadistic Sacrament you can't really board for it with TPS. Bringing in bad win conditions to try and fight it will destroy your deck almost as badly as a resolved Sacrament. Just trust in your deck to be able to give you what you need to fight against it.

[honestabe]

actually, if you were playing TPS pre-time vault, wouldn't engineered plague naming spirits be GG against Oath? unless they hardcast a guy, but if you can't win by the time they get 8 mana up, you prob shouldn't be playing TPS anyway

[Delha]

actually, if you were playing TPS pre-time vault, wouldn't engineered plague naming spirits be GG against Oath? unless they hardcast a guy, but if you can't win by the time they get 8 mana up, you prob shouldn't be playing TPS anyway

Pre-Vault, I'd agree with you, but I think CovetousRat was suggesting it in today's meta, where a typical Oath build has many many alternate outs.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

actually, if you were playing TPS pre-time vault, wouldn't engineered plague naming spirits be GG against Oath? unless they hardcast a guy, but if you can't win by the time they get 8 mana up, you prob shouldn't be playing TPS anyway

Pre-Time Vault why would TPS lose to Oath unless you punted hard? If you can't win by the time they could find and activate Oath for the double dragon win then you probably shouldn't be playing TPS anyway. I would rather Tendrils their face for lethal than burn tutors/rituals for a waste of a sideboard slot in the hopes that they don't have a bounce spell or tutor for one.

Come on people I know TPS is supposed to be the slow combo deck but it beats even modern Oath in terms of speed. If you want to play control pick up Drains don't butcher TPS.

[honestabe]

actually, if you were playing TPS pre-time vault, wouldn't engineered plague naming spirits be GG against Oath? unless they hardcast a guy, but if you can't win by the time they get 8 mana up, you prob shouldn't be playing TPS anyway

Pre-Time Vault why would TPS lose to Oath unless you punted hard? If you can't win by the time they could find and activate Oath for the double dragon win then you probably shouldn't be playing TPS anyway. I would rather Tendrils their face for lethal than burn tutors/rituals for a waste of a sideboard slot in the hopes that they don't have a bounce spell or tutor for one.

Come on people I know TPS is supposed to be the slow combo deck but it beats even modern Oath in terms of speed. If you want to play control pick up Drains don't butcher TPS.

lol I'm just busting your balls, chill

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

actually, if you were playing TPS pre-time vault, wouldn't engineered plague naming spirits be GG against Oath? unless they hardcast a guy, but if you can't win by the time they get 8 mana up, you prob shouldn't be playing TPS anyway

Pre-Time Vault why would TPS lose to Oath unless you punted hard? If you can't win by the time they could find and activate Oath for the double dragon win then you probably shouldn't be playing TPS anyway. I would rather Tendrils their face for lethal than burn tutors/rituals for a waste of a sideboard slot in the hopes that they don't have a bounce spell or tutor for one.

Come on people I know TPS is supposed to be the slow combo deck but it beats even modern Oath in terms of speed. If you want to play control pick up Drains don't butcher TPS.

lol I'm just busting your balls, chill

[covetousrat]

My main point is comparing it to Sadistic Sacrament. If Sadistic is being targeted at the 3 creatures in Oath, wouldn't you reach the same conclusion as Engineered Plague? They can still combo out with Time vault?

[InfectedMushroom]

The Oath player can bounce Engineered Plague and then just win. Sadistic Sacrament removes those creatures from the game entirely and forces them to draw up to 4 more dead cards in Oath of Druids. The orchard tokens are also useful in attacking Planeswalkers should one land.

[covetousrat]

The Oath player can bounce Engineered Plague and then just win. Sadistic Sacrament removes those creatures from the game entirely and forces them to draw up to 4 more dead cards in Oath of Druids. The orchard tokens are also useful in attacking Planeswalkers should one land.

With?

[Delha]

The Oath player can bounce Engineered Plague and then just win. Sadistic Sacrament removes those creatures from the game entirely and forces them to draw up to 4 more dead cards in Oath of Druids. The orchard tokens are also useful in attacking Planeswalkers should one land.

With?

If they were forced to load you up with Spirits when Orchard was one of their few mana sources, then a Jace/Tezz later on won't last more than a turn or two.

I really wanted to find some other question being asked here, but couldn't see one, so I'm assuming you didn't get what the SadSac player was attacking with.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

I wouldn't bring in Sadistic Sacrament against Oath to begin with so comparing it to Engineered Plague in this regard is a moot point. Oath runs far too many win conditions for this to be viable. The only deck I would consider Sacrament against is an opposing combo deck.

[honestabe]

I wouldn't bring in Sadistic Sacrament against Oath to begin with so comparing it to Engineered Plague in this regard is a moot point. Oath runs far too many win conditions for this to be viable. The only deck I would consider Sacrament against is an opposing combo deck.