Starting Points

[TheShop]

Maybe just a bit of musing, but I find myself looking at the following list of cards on a regular occasion:

1 Trinisphere

4 Goblin Welder

1 Tolarian Academy
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland

5 Moxes
1 Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt

24 cards in all, all indisputable for the stax deck packing at least 1 color (from a historical standpoint since the fall of the Cron build).  Which way do you take it?  Is the following in this deck associated with these cards or smokestack and tangle wire (whose numbers an inclusion have varied over the years)?  

I guess the next logical line for me is smokestack and wire, but beyond that...all of the cards have a color connotation which determines the mana-base choices (potentially locking you into those colors and determining the vast majority of the remaining slots).  Even chalice or Rod seem to have a color limiting factor associated with them in many people's view.

The point:  what is the next spell or land past stack and wire or lodestone golem that you think is nearly an auto-include?  How much does this change with the meta at the time?  Odd that nearly a single spell directs nearly 36 slots in the deck.  

For the future of Stax, the most appealing thing that could possibly happen is the ability of the deck to bridge sub-types (red/5c/r-b...) and pick up attributes of each.  The lists seem amazingly streamlined and lack the original variance that made stax fun to me.  Seeing multiple builds with extremely varying card choices...yet similar feel was always the draw.  It just seems like the number of powerful cards for this archetype is being limited much further than blue-based dual strategies.  That may not be the way the pillars are currently understood, but if you own a set of blue duals, you can play nearly anything in the game...Stax must rely of poor colored lands to achieve the same effect and cannot use tutors and sacs to get there with the same effectiveness.  Even then, colored spells have inherent drawbacks here.  Stax needs a final land to back up City of Brass and enable colored spells to be played in addition to artifacts, or equivalently artifacts with colors inside their respective pie pieces that negate the drawbacks of playing a colored spell to begin with.  Allowing a change of flavor and variety in the Stax world would be fantastic.  Look at the multiple engines and draw engines that a blue deck can use...if the core of stax were to change you would need to either play spheres or rods (or possibly both...another discussion).  Stax is predictable and linear, which is less fun than playing more like the deck in my opinion.  I dont think anyone should have a problem with wanting more variety inside of an archetype while the core stays the same.

Edit:  Changing the face of the enemy by giving them game mechanics back from restriction that are venerable to attack by multiple cards would make variation possible as well.  For instance, blue getting back brainstorm + a draw spell allows Stax to run old favorites in colors like Chains and In the Eye of Chaos.  Similiarly, it makes chalices viable in multi-color stax decks without running Bazaar because it swings the spell cost concentration back into Stax's favor.  Even blue having thirst would be good.  Allowing additional draw helps others cheat on their manabase...with takes some of the pressure off to attack mana-bases.

[Will]

As far as Stax including Red goes, the next cards that would be included/ considered would be Spheres/ Crucible which are usually an auto-include, especially Crucible which generally sees play as a 3-4 of.  Without Spheres you currently can not really compete because you need something on Turn 1 that actually impacts everything your opponent plays which neither Chalice nor Null Rod can do.  In regards to Null Rod/ Chalice/Mox Monkey, what specific blend of Stax you are playing makes all the difference because in a deck with Welders, Chalice is not really optimal because your 1 drops are pretty much on par with theirs, and by holding a Chalice until after you cast Welder you create too much of a window of opportunity IMO.  In this case, Null Rod or even better Mox Monkey would get the nod.  My general dislike for Null Rod comes because although your Key-Vault opponent can't win as long as Null Rod is on the table, they can easily bounce/kill it and then proceed to go infinite on you.  While saying this brings up the argument that your opponent will also be tight on mana, your deck relies as much on Moxen as most opponents and so it will be harder to apply pressure unless Workshop has already been played.  For this reason I prefer Gorilla Shaman/ Powder Keg instead of Null Rod as they let me keep my Moxen and get rid of my opponents.  However, in a list without Goblin Welder I would be much more inclined to run Chalice as I can get full value out of most situations and would never mind playing Chalice on 1 as it is almost guaranteed to effect my opponent more than me.

On the topic of other pillars or archetypes changing more and having a wider base of cards to choose from at any given time you are correct.  However, I disagree with your analysis that there is a lack of originality or variance from one list to another.  Although the accessibility of information online has partially contributed to more streamlined lists, there are still plenty of different archetypes floating around, but it mainly seems to depend on where you are and what your metagame is like because at heart, Stax is a metagame deck.  Off the top of my head there is EuroMud, Espresso Stax, and 5cStax all running around putting up results.  What I think it comes down to is people collaborating together, finding what they need to beat, and working out what cards would help to achieve this goal resulting in metagame specific lists.  Also, it should be considered that with as set of blue duals "you can play nearly anything in the game", the general Vintage landscape has remained relatively the same since Brainstorm and co. got the axe.  Sure Tezz rose and fell, and other big changes occurred, but for the most part the Vintage scene as a whole has sort of stagnated and many of the mysteries in the meta have been solved.  

I agree with what you are saying about different times in the history of Type 1 being kinder to Stax with the Gush era coming to mind as it made Spheres better than ever.  It would certainly help if decks weren't as focused now on the number of basics they played but rather competing with the other blue decks, but alas that is not so.

[Meddling Mike]

One of the things I always find interesting about this archetype is that there are so few automatic includes in just about any build. There's three ways to build a Stax deck IMO, MUD, Mono Red and 5C. Each one starts a line of thinking that causes a major swing in how the deck is built and functions. It's sort of like "If you give a mouse a cookie" If you give a Stax deck some mountains, it's going to want some goblin welders and shattering spree in the sideboard, if you give it some goblin welders now it's going to want cards like Triskelion and Solemn Simulacrum. All of a sudden choices that made perfect sense in your MUD build are now on the bubble because of their lack of synergy with the new components relative to other potential choices. That chalice of the void made sense in your MUD build where it only hit two spells in your deck when you set it at one. Now if you set it at one it shuts off those welders that you splashed for!

For a mono red build, I would never build one without smokestack, tangle wire, crucible of worlds and at least one Karn.

[nataz]

I'd add to meddling mage's list twan's R/B stax list that was floating around a while ago.

[TheShop]

I agree with these comments but would like to add that I should have already put crucible on the short list of things that are auto-included.  The only reason that they are not is because of some minor discussion a few months ago regarding the number.  My next inclusions on the list are:

4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
3 Crucible of Worlds

giving us 35 of the potential cards in a list and 25 open slots.  8-9 of the remaining card slots are lands.  But that is one of my points.  When you choose the next spell...you have really made the decision to add the one card plus 8 lands plus the best suite with it.  Most stax lists have 4 slots open (especially 5 color lists).  This is true unless we discuss cutting what has been known as core for some time.

If your addition is Sphere you just decided to go 5 color.  If thorn, then B/R.  If Null Rod, conventional wisdom would point to a bazaar list.  Hybrids are often fragile and create extremely difficult deck building choices.  I am personally in a trance from staring at the same 50 possible card choices for the last 6 years.  I would like to see cards that bridge the cores of those subtypes or B&R list changes that change the opponents and allow some variance.  Originality doesnt come from the players alone, but also it comes from the available mechanics. 

Look at Gush.  Brainstorm + Gush + Fastbond + Merchant Scroll + Force of Will take up less deckspace in total than the required core of a Stax deck, and yet powered Painter, Oath, GAT, Tropical Storm and all the variations inside of each one...Opening up the core to support different decks would be really fun and exciting.

I think you are right to assert that the internet and seeing the winning lists (and there being so few variances between them) creates this situation as well.  But I can't help but feel shoed into making the majority of the deck choices very very early because of a game function need and not just because I have seen them before.

[Will]

I think you are right to assert that the internet and seeing the winning lists (and there being so few variances between them) creates this situation as well.  But I can't help but feel shoed into making the majority of the deck choices very very early because of a game function need and not just because I have seen them before.

It seems to me that you are describing the process of optimization or possibly a dead end that has been reached with the deck or the thought process is flawed.  I certainly agree that some drastic change or shift needs to take place to change the core of the deck, which would create a new landscape, but is that really what you want?  In my opinion, the current environment is fine for the deck, especially if it's reaching optimization. 

[TheShop]

It is what I want, lodestone has already begun it.  I am banking on scars to have something cool and possibly also aggroesque.  What i would like to see most is non-artifact colored lock components.

[Duncan]

White would give you Suppression Field, Glowrider and some more 'lock' cards. However, the inclusion of a color creates internal dissynergies with Lodestone Golem in your deck in my opinion.

[Will]

White also allows for you to possibly go the Legacy route and play Flagstones Armageddon if you wanted to as well as some sideboard options that could improve the deck.  However, I'm not sure if playing White is really an improvement over MUD where you already have most or all of the pieces as well as the added strength of being able to play Serum Powder, Ancient Tomb and Rishadan Port which add a lot to the deck with Rishadan Port being my personal MVP of the deck. 

[nightmare1016]

IMO, you can't use Armageddon if you're planning to splash white in a Stax build like in Legacy. It'll be costly with multiple sphere effects in play, and worse, it can't be powered out via Workshop. Adding Ghostly Prison would mean that you'll be playing with Ancient Tombs to power it out quickly (aside from your artifact acceleration), and Suppression Field would make your strip effects and your welder (among other things) too costly to activate.

The cards that come into my mind when it comes to non-artifact lock components are Chains of Mephistopheles and In The Eye Of Chaos -- both of which are (or were) components of 5C Stax.

[Will]

IMO, you can't use Armageddon if you're planning to splash white in a Stax build like in Legacy. It'll be costly with multiple sphere effects in play, and worse, it can't be powered out via Workshop. Adding Ghostly Prison would mean that you'll be playing with Ancient Tombs to power it out quickly (aside from your artifact acceleration), and Suppression Field would make your strip effects and your welder (among other things) too costly to activate.

The cards that come into my mind when it comes to non-artifact lock components are Chains of Mephistopheles and In The Eye Of Chaos -- both of which are (or were) components of 5C Stax.

I didn't necessarily mean to play R/W Stax but what you say is true. It was just a possibility and I personally am just sticking to MUD until something of the Workshop variety really stands out to me.  Besides Chains or In the Eye of Chaos, Red offers Magus of the Moon which seems like it could be especially devastating now compounded with just Blood Moon to borrow tools from Workshop Aggro.  While Lodestone would be antisynergistic with Blood Moon/ Magus if you resolve Magus you generally have a lot of time to win because it cripples most opponents mana bases.  From this point you could clearly go the Workshop Aggro route with more creatures or stay in the Stax shell by playing off the damage that you could do to your opponent's mana development.  Another option for Stax that no one has mentioned here is Bloodghast in a more traditional Red Stax variant like Ashok did.  The deck was a traditional Red Stax deck with 4 Bazaar and 4 Welder as well as other lock components but also Bloodghast which could keep a Smokestack on 2 up and running so long as Crucible is on the field.  Even though Bloodghast isn't necessarily a lock piece, it is an option that may be worth a try. 

[nightmare1016]

Bloodghast is an interesting choice, but personally, I'm kinda iffy about it. Like what you mentioned before, it's not necessarily a lock piece, but it's good for negating the loss of permanents via Smokestack and/or finishing the game. However, it's not a card that you would want to see on your opening hand (unless you have a Bazaar). The way I see it, a Bloodghast on your opening hand could've been some other lock piece, like a Crucible or a Sphere effect, and could possibly force you to mulligan for a better hand.

Just to clarify, I'm not entirely against Bloodghast, I just have my doubts about it. Peace.

[Prospero]

Maybe just a bit of musing, but I find myself looking at the following list of cards on a regular occasion:

1 Trinisphere

4 Goblin Welder

1 Tolarian Academy
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland

5 Moxes
1 Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt

24 cards in all, all indisputable for the stax deck packing at least 1 color (from a historical standpoint since the fall of the Cron build).  Which way do you take it?  Is the following in this deck associated with these cards or smokestack and tangle wire (whose numbers an inclusion have varied over the years)?  

I guess the next logical line for me is smokestack and wire, but beyond that...all of the cards have a color connotation which determines the mana-base choices (potentially locking you into those colors and determining the vast majority of the remaining slots).  Even chalice or Rod seem to have a color limiting factor associated with them in many people's view.

The point:  what is the next spell or land past stack and wire or lodestone golem that you think is nearly an auto-include?  How much does this change with the meta at the time?  Odd that nearly a single spell directs nearly 36 slots in the deck.

I think it's very tough to ignore the printing of Lodestone Golem if you're a Shop pilot.  Shop decks should focus on one of two things - playing Lodestone Golem, or playing a Shop deck that is capable of beating Lodestone Golem.  If you find yourself playing a deck that beats Lodestone, I think it leads you to play suboptimal cards (like Razormane Masticore) that aren't very good against much of the current field.

So, while I think that it is possible to build a good Shop deck that doesn't run Lodestones, I think that running Lodestones is the right call for the foreseeable future.

The question that should follow is the following: What is the best possible shell for Lodestone Golem?  Running two color Stax (think Cesar Fernandez with his European U/R Stax) with Lodestones doesn't seem like a great idea.  Running 5C with Lodestones seems unbelievably counter-intuitive.  I think Lodestone naturally pushes you to a mono color or MUD list. 

The best color to run with Shops is usually red - as it permits you Goblin Welder and a wealth of sideboard options against the power blue decks in the environment, cards like Red Elemental Blast.  So, I think you're pushed to run either Mono Red Stax or some MUD variant - albeit an aggro MUD list or a MUD prison deck.

It comes down to testing and play style, but I couldn't imagine playing anything but Mono Red or MUD if I'm running Lodestones.  And I do think that Lodestone is a "must run" right now.

[TheShop]

Even if you add lodestone to the list of core components- you are eventually faced with a decision about the next card... This decision is NEVER really a single card Choice an realistically chooses all remaing slots in the deck(give or take 2). 

Point being: a little variation would be nice...ie era of trinisphere seeing everything from Dust to Dust to Blood Moon.  That sort of variation doesn't currently exist and I assert that it makes stax a rather boring deck to build(and I am a proponent of shops).  More non-color artifacts will exasterbate this issue.

Ps- it has always been tough to beat the more aggroey stax variants with a lock one and older locks like Chains and In the Eye don't work because the spells they beat are no longer legal.  Suppression field doesn't hinder them enough to warrant inclusion given how much it hinders welder, karn, and wasteland.  Flagstones and Armageddon are a joke as they are too slow and shoe you into playing white...the weakest stax color.

[scipio]

shoe you into playing white...the weakest stax color.

Is this why no one considers Ethersworn Canonist?  White gives you Balance and gives you access to Swords and enlightened tutor.  Those options help to combat Oath and Fish at least.  A 2-color Stax with R/W might be worth testing.

[Killane]

shoe you into playing white...the weakest stax color.

Is this why no one considers Ethersworn Canonist?  White gives you Balance and gives you access to Swords and enlightened tutor.  Those options help to combat Oath and Fish at least.  A 2-color Stax with R/W might be worth testing.

White seems like a powerful option actually. Canonist is brutal against Storm decks and helps prevent them from just chaining draws into tutors into bouncce into win. Balance is... well it's balance. Even something like Aven Mindcensor might be quite strong to prevent folks from tutoring up their anti-shop silver bullets. StpS and Tutor also both seem good in a world of Oath.

[nightmare1016]

Canonist is brutal against Storm decks and helps prevent them from just chaining draws into tutors into bounce into win.

True, but aren't Sphere effects much more brutal?

If I were to splash white, I'd go for Enlightened Tutor and Balance, as well as StP. An Enlightened followed by a Bazaar activation (with a Welder online) can be powerful in a R/W Stax shell.

 

[Will]

White seems like an option to test actually.  I think that the starting points really do allow you to jump to any direction you want to counteract a specific field with one or sometimes more decks being created to adapt and "solving" the metagame.  While it can at times seem to stop and halt progress or eliminate ideas it is the metagame rather than the cards that form a starting point that is at fault. 

[TheShop]

White has a few issues that I have problems with in a colored build:

Pros-  Stp is strong...i miss the days of maindecking 2 of these.
            Balance is also strong depending on the meta
            Just with those, it would appear that white stax has the potential to own up on aggro

Cons-  Suppression Field has never been the card I wan it to be...shutting off wastes foes not make me happy and other decks aren't running the sac lands to bust this card up.  I think it has been better before than it is now an still seemed unplayable.  I would love to see a deck that proves this wrong(not sarcasm, I like the idea)
             Aven Mindscensor/Glowrider- non-artifact spells at this cost are tough(if not imposssible) to cast most of the time unless you run rod/chalice over sphere. 
             Cannonist only really effects storm because everyone has will not be playing multiples through your components anyway...and storm will cast a mass bounce spell and win.  If this guy had NOT been an artifact he would be better for stax because he would dodge h-recall.  He needed to stop a mass bounce spell from winning to be viable and he doesn't do that.

Knowing this-when you add your first white card to the base deck, you are forgoing black(tutor and possibly confidant), blue(tinker&ancestral), and green(not as big an issue) to play with balance and swords.  Many colored stax players cut balance anyway.  I would recommend white in addition to red only if your meta is infested with aggro or if oath creatures are all swordzible.

Edit: seal of cleansing is one of my all time fav cards.  I ran one in my stax build from 2005 until just a little while back.  My issue with seal is that a 1 for 1 permanent trade is way too fair and that it is not a lock component early(although it tempts you to play it as such). 

[TheShop]

Sorry for double post and the difficulty of reading of the last post: phone foruming is tough.

[Will]

Well it seems to me like things may have changed in regards to White Stax.  Leyline of Sanctity could open up doors to a Serum Powder based Stax deck that plays similarly to Espresso Stax but also splashes white or simply runs Leyline.  Only time will tell but what TheShop said could be coming true as the reasons to play White seem to have increased by one.  

[Twaun007]

I don't see how you are able to claim that the reasons to play White have increased by one. Don't get me wrong, Leyline of Sanctity is cute, but I don't think it is the end all be all that people are hyping it up to be.

Lets look at it for a bit.

Pros-
-You cannot be the target of spells or abilities.
-Stops Oath, Duress, Tendrils, Hurkyl's Recall, Gifts, Fact, Goblin Charbelcher(for you Nat Moes), Gauntlets of Chaos, and Phyrexian Portal.

Cons-
-Leyline of Sanctity forces you to cut 4 cards in a Workshop deck.
-It doesn't prevent your opponent from tutoring up Vault/Key
-It gets popped by everyones favorite artifact killer Nature's Claim
-It does nothing vs MUD which is everywhere
-You pretty much mull to six vs control if it is in your opener.
-Doesn't slow down dredge since they can just Cabal Therapy on themselves.

If Workshop lists were not running True Believer why would they want to run this?


EDIT:

If Oath is such a beating why not try this as a starting point?

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
2 Riftstone Portal
3 Ray of Revelation
2 Seal of Cleansing
3 Nature's Claim

Toss in some Smokestacks, Tangle Wires, Crucibles, Null Rods, and say "KUNG-POW! Take that Oath."

EDIT:EDIT:

Before we completely derail this thread about White in Workshops we should get back to stating points.

As stated above, I also believe that that each Workshop variant needs to have it's own starting point.

I'll just expand on the original list TheShop posted, but split it into Workshop archetypes.

Mono Red

1 Trinisphere
4 Goblin Welder
1 Tolarian Academy.... Is this worth it?
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
5 Moxes
1 Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt

+4 Null Rod
+4 Barbarian Ring

MUD

1 Trinisphere
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
5 Moxes
1 Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault..... this one is iffy
1 Mana Crypt

+4 Lodestone Golem
+4 Chalice of The Void
+4 Ancient Tomb

5cStax
1 Trinisphere
4 Goblin Welder
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
5 Moxes
1 Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt

+1 Tinker
+1 Demonic Tutor
+Some number of Gorilla Shamans

[zeus-online]

If storm ever becomes a problem the new leyline does allow for a 4 leyline, 4 mindbreak trap SB to avoid loosing Turn1 though. I don't think i'd want it maindeck, like ever, though.