supporting Bitter ordeal

[waffles]

yes i know its jank, but i think reanimating skeleton might be just the card to help bitter ordeal along, though i dont think it will ever join the ranks of compeditve play. but hey i could be very well wrong. ill toy around with the idea somemore.

[AmbivalentDuck]

We've been using Bitter Ordeal as a sideboard card in RBx goblins for a while.  The things that "help Bitter Ordeal along" are a fetch-heavy manabase, running all 5 strip effects, heavy tutoring, and things with "Lotus" in their name.  With enough fast mana, you can typically cap for 2-3 on turn two.  Because Oath (4 wincons) and Stax (4+ wincons) are major players in the meta, it's a sideboard effect and certainly not worth mainboarding things that aren't already good by themselves.

[Lurker101]

The Lord Shaper used to run a bitter ordeal deck with fetches, strips/wastes, lotus stuff (as ambivalent duck mentioned) and greater gargadon which has a plus of being good against oath. I think he even top 8'd with his build. It was called "Greater Ordeal" and you should be able to find the thread for it. I also tried a B/G build with strip/waste effects, fetches, black lotus, and lotus petal, pernicious deed, and Phyrexian Negator. It did ok in testing and there's a thread for that here too but Greater Ordeal is the better deck and I think it still may be playable. Both threads are over a year old though so the lists may need updating. Bloodghast + Skullclamp and also balance may be worth consideration too. Also every deck that revolves around maindeck bitter ordeal played rituals too.

[Oath of Happy]

One of the fastet ways to Nuke 4 of the opponents win cons with Bitter Ordeal is to pop a fetch, Tinker for Lotus, then sac Lotus to pay for this card.

[AmbivalentDuck]

When turn 2 Tinker resolves and you use it to fuel Bitter Ordeal, you've entered the land of win-more.

[Killane]

When turn 2 Tinker resolves and you use it to fuel Bitter Ordeal, you've entered the land of win-more.

Either that, or win-less, since I'd much rather have a robot than an ordeal vs about half the format, including the most popular deck currently (shops).

[waffles]

thank you for the direction, so far what i have found was using stuff like blood pet, basal thrulls and the alike, i could propel it up to a storm count of 2 on turn one assuming a ritual more if i got fetch and or a lotus.

what do you guys think of http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=111049? i think using one of the other colors like white or blue i could actuall make this work.

[Oath of Happy]

When turn 2 Tinker resolves and you use it to fuel Bitter Ordeal, you've entered the land of win-more.

Either that, or win-less, since I'd much rather have a robot than an ordeal vs about half the format, including the most popular deck currently (shops).

Ok, and vs Tezz or Oath?  If your using Bitter Ordeal for g2 or g3 vs shops your already screwing yourself over

[Killane]

When turn 2 Tinker resolves and you use it to fuel Bitter Ordeal, you've entered the land of win-more.

Either that, or win-less, since I'd much rather have a robot than an ordeal vs about half the format, including the most popular deck currently (shops).

Ok, and vs Tezz or Oath?  If your using Bitter Ordeal for g2 or g3 vs shops your already screwing yourself over

If your target is DSC Tinker-Bot is perfectly valid vs Oath unless they have already resolved and Oath. They will have a hard time racing it. Similarly, it puts Tezz on a 2 tu clock to find Key-Vaut or an answer. Bitter ordeal may or may not win, depending on builds, sideborded extra wincons, etc... heck I've seen Tezz win with Bob beatdown plenty of times and most Oath builds have Jace TMS + 3 guys + key-Vault these days, soem also have Tezz and another dude out of the board. Good luck using Ordeal for 7.

My point is tinker-bot is far more versitile, good against the entire field (depending on the bot), and much less resource intensive. Using Tinker to support a less powerful wincon that may or may not work seems very very off to me.

[waffles]

going to go mono black, with the sb for red. the green/black verson would use city of solitude, fastbond/crucible.

4 duress
4 D.Rituals
1 demonic tutor
1 vampiric tutor
2 Curse of the Cabal
4 bitter ordeal
4 Culling of the weak
-----
4 blood pets
4 basal thrulls
4 basal sliver
2 reanimating skeleton
2 Overeager Apprentice
4 Nihilith
------------
1 black lotus
1 lotus petal

5 waste+ 1 ghost quarter
8 fetch
2 lake of the dead
8 swamp


If the ordeal direction fails then it would be more of a aggro deck i chose Nihilith cause its dangerous to bazaar decks and even dredge. was thinking of using more discard like mind twist or hymn. but im going to try using the curse and see if it helps. my only worry is leyline how would i deal with that? Pithing is the obivious choice for g2 or g3. if it doesnt hit the yard it doesnt count i might end up going the black/green verson.

[Oath of Happy]

When turn 2 Tinker resolves and you use it to fuel Bitter Ordeal, you've entered the land of win-more.

Either that, or win-less, since I'd much rather have a robot than an ordeal vs about half the format, including the most popular deck currently (shops).

Ok, and vs Tezz or Oath?  If your using Bitter Ordeal for g2 or g3 vs shops your already screwing yourself over

If your target is DSC Tinker-Bot is perfectly valid vs Oath unless they have already resolved and Oath. They will have a hard time racing it. Similarly, it puts Tezz on a 2 tu clock to find Key-Vaut or an answer. Bitter ordeal may or may not win, depending on builds, sideborded extra wincons, etc... heck I've seen Tezz win with Bob beatdown plenty of times and most Oath builds have Jace TMS + 3 guys + key-Vault these days, soem also have Tezz and another dude out of the board. Good luck using Ordeal for 7.

My point is tinker-bot is far more versitile, good against the entire field (depending on the bot), and much less resource intensive. Using Tinker to support a less powerful wincon that may or may not work seems very very off to me.

No one uses DSC.  The universal robot right now is Sphinx.  I'll agree that vs Tezz a DC is good enough for the win, but vs Oath, and Storm, and vs Tezz without a DC in play,  I'd go for the Lotus into Bitter Ordeal.

[Killane]

funny. I guess i didn't win the last vintage event i went to 6-0 with a DsC in my list then. Huh.

[waffles]

so far with the deck list i posted here i am able to ramp ordeal up to 4 on turn 3 6/10 ten goldfish games i will know more once i am able to do testing against the tier decks.

[Killane]

tps consistantly storms for 10 on turn 3 and kills the opponent. Why is this better? Or as good?

[waffles]

tps consistantly storms for 10 on turn 3 and kills the opponent. Why is this better? Or as good?

cause its not tps, and a bit more painful

[LotusHead]

Bitter Ordeal + infinite Storm = no deck for opponent.  Infinite Storm is Bomberman's realm.  Heck, you can even re-animate Auriok Salvagers in a UBw shell.

[waffles]

Bitter Ordeal + infinite Storm = no deck for opponent.  Infinite Storm is Bomberman's realm.  Heck, you can even re-animate Auriok Salvagers in a UBw shell.

 that can be done in as a black combo Skeletal changeling, basal sliver, and haakon or crucible and fastbond + waste or just white/black using auriok salvagers and led

[LotusHead]

Bitter Ordeal + infinite Storm = no deck for opponent.  Infinite Storm is Bomberman's realm.  Heck, you can even re-animate Auriok Salvagers in a UBw shell.

 that can be done in as a black combo Skeletal changeling, basal sliver, and haakon or crucible and fastbond + waste or just white/black using auriok salvagers and led

I actually don't understand any of the combos you just rattled off, Sorry.

In my suggested combo, Bitter Ordeal can do the storm for 2-4 thing, but can act as actual finisher if Auriok Salvager gets online. 

[coldcrow]

With Haakon and Basal Sliver in play, you can endlessly play and sacrifice the Changeling, generating gravestorm. that would make it a 4 card combo with Ordeal, which is very likely not even remotely competetive.

[waffles]

With Haakon and Basal Sliver in play, you can endlessly play and sacrifice the Changeling, generating gravestorm. that would make it a 4 card combo with Ordeal, which is very likely not even remotely competetive.

right and the fastbond crucible of worlds is an infinite strip lock, the haakon combo i know is bad for this. but if can stall to build up stuff to sac then i would be in the postion to pull this off, so i think this would have to be a control deck. something like B/U or something with Mirari supporting it

[Delha]

tps consistantly storms for 10 on turn 3 and kills the opponent. Why is this better? Or as good?

cause its not tps, and a bit more painful

I'm not seeing how taking 4 wincons from Oath/MUD is more painful than dealing 20 pts of lifeloss.

If you're building for casual play or a not particularly competitive meta, I'd say go for it. In a major event though, I think that one really ought to have solid answers to Killane's questions before seriously considering a deck. That principle is true of all formats, not just Vintage.

[Killane]

tps consistantly storms for 10 on turn 3 and kills the opponent. Why is this better? Or as good?

cause its not tps, and a bit more painful

I'm not seeing how taking 4 wincons from Oath/MUD is more painful than dealing 20 pts of lifeloss.

If you're building for casual play or a not particularly competitive meta, I'd say go for it. In a major event though, I think that one really ought to have solid answers to Killane's questions before seriously considering a deck. That principle is true of all formats, not just Vintage.

I'm so very tempted to put the bolded section as a quote in my sig. Lol.

Very true though, especially sincemost Oath lists have 5 wincons these days and MUD- well I think you might as well just try and exile the whole deck (hyperbole).

[Lurker101]

I forgot to mention Smallpox, I believe both of the old Bitter Ordeal lists ran it and it builds gravestorm fast and easily while also helping to clear the board. Hell, you may want to consider pox as well.

[waffles]

tps consistantly storms for 10 on turn 3 and kills the opponent. Why is this better? Or as good?

cause its not tps, and a bit more painful

I'm not seeing how taking 4 wincons from Oath/MUD is more painful than dealing 20 pts of lifeloss.

If you're building for casual play or a not particularly competitive meta, I'd say go for it. In a major event though, I think that one really ought to have solid answers to Killane's questions before seriously considering a deck. That principle is true of all formats, not just Vintage.

i am a gutton for punishment, most of my problem is that i dont know a whole lot about compeditive play. sure i know some but not on the level of the people here and im somewhat stuck in the days of old so answering these questions killane's has is a bit hard for me. As for this deck, i might have concede to the idea that is a failure, i could try doing it with sadistic sacrament. Generating that kind of mana is easy, as tps does it well

[Delha]

i am a gutton for punishment, most of my problem is that i dont know a whole lot about compeditive play. sure i know some but not on the level of the people here and im somewhat stuck in the days of old so answering these questions killane's has is a bit hard for me.

I wouldn't sweat it. At the end of the day, play to your environment. If all the people you're playing against are using casual lists, then I think it's probably best for you to build similarly. There's not much point in building soulcrusher decks if all it's going to do is make people not want to play against you anymore.

Besides, most tuning you'll get here is geared against other tier 1 lists. Competitive decks have a weird incestuous kind of feedback, and that's especially true in such a brutally focused format as Vintage. Mainboard Hurkyl's isn't as hot when nobody in your area even owns Shops. As a deck highly sensitive to the metagame, Fish in particular suffers from this. Null Rods and Cold-Eyed Selkie work a lot less well when the opponent is running 10+ basics and dropping stuff like Putrid Leech against you.

[waffles]

i am a gutton for punishment, most of my problem is that i dont know a whole lot about compeditive play. sure i know some but not on the level of the people here and im somewhat stuck in the days of old so answering these questions killane's has is a bit hard for me.

I wouldn't sweat it. At the end of the day, play to your environment. If all the people you're playing against are using casual lists, then I think it's probably best for you to build similarly. There's not much point in building soulcrusher decks if all it's going to do is make people not want to play against you anymore.

Besides, most tuning you'll get here is geared against other tier 1 lists. Competitive decks have a weird incestuous kind of feedback, and that's especially true in such a brutally focused format as Vintage. Mainboard Hurkyl's isn't as hot when nobody in your area even owns Shops. As a deck highly sensitive to the metagame, Fish in particular suffers from this. Null Rods and Cold-Eyed Selkie work a lot less well when the opponent is running 10+ basics and dropping stuff like Putrid Leech against you.

i am on that line between casual hardcore and competitive play, i am just missing the pieces to make the transition, like examining the play value of a card in the context of the given format, most of the people i play with are that way anyway some refuse to play me if I'm playing blue or white.

As for my want to break this card into a main board-able card, it would be the pinnacle of my creativity to say i broke a card that was once thought to be really bad.  i know it can be done but that one piece of the puzzle that i don't know about yet is within sight, i just cant reach it from here just yet, as i don't know how to get there from here. After some deeper thought, i think the key to that pay lies in Balance and balance like effects since that card plays to the plight of the pauper, ya know my suffering is now your suffering.

Hrmm, more on the idea, i would like to know the max number of win conditions that the tier decks usually run, i was guessing around 20

[Lurker101]

This is probably a terrible idea but Hellcarver Demon + Balance + Bitter Ordeal+  Heavy Library Manipulation might be the core of a good Bitter ordeal deck, just imagine attacking with Hellcarver and hitting balance and Bitter Ordeal...brutal epic victory. Hellcarver Demon isn't very good though.

[MaximumCDawg]

When Cosi's Trickster came out, I spent alot of time trying to make her work as Vintage aggro.  The idea was that, if she lives to your next untap phase, she's probably a 2/2 for U, easy.  But waiting for an opponent's fetch effects seemed dicey, so I investigated cards that make your opponent shuffle.  Ignoring the crappy ways to do this (Solider of Fortune), I settled on Bitter Ordeal and Portent as the two best ideas.

Bitter Ordeal is pretty awesome with Cosi because each storm activation causes an additional shuffle!  So you could go:

T1, Cosi
T2, Lotus petal, fetchland, sac petal and land, Bitter Ordeal for 3; swing with 4/4 Cosi

In Magical Christmas Land, then, you've already capped your opponent and got a serious clock going on. 

[waffles]

When Cosi's Trickster came out, I spent alot of time trying to make her work as Vintage aggro.  The idea was that, if she lives to your next untap phase, she's probably a 2/2 for U, easy.  But waiting for an opponent's fetch effects seemed dicey, so I investigated cards that make your opponent shuffle.  Ignoring the crappy ways to do this (Solider of Fortune), I settled on Bitter Ordeal and Portent as the two best ideas.

Bitter Ordeal is pretty awesome with Cosi because each storm activation causes an additional shuffle!  So you could go:

T1, Cosi
T2, Lotus petal, fetchland, sac petal and land, Bitter Ordeal for 3; swing with 4/4 Cosi

In Magical Christmas Land, then, you've already capped your opponent and got a serious clock going on. 

that's far out, but the ordeal takes some serious set up to get anything out of it. the most i could ramp to was 5 with a ton of mana floating. I am still working on how to ramp this higher than that.

[Delha]

Some random stuff off the top of my head, most of it bad. Just throwing it out there.

Blood Pet
Blood Vassal
Basal Sliver

Chromatic Sphere
Chromatic Star
Terrarion (LAWL)

Phyrexian Altar
Ashnod's Altar
Mitotic Slime
Sengir Autocrat

Recurring Nightmare
Priest of Gix
Peregrine Drake/etc

Squandered Resources
Ancient Spring/etc
Svyelunite Templte/etc
Saprazzan Skerry/etc

Balance
Balancing Act
Cataclysm