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Killane
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I am become Death, the destroyer of Worlds
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« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2010, 08:52:23 am » |
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Nice review.
Regarding Leyline of Sanctity, you don;t seem to think that this is maindeckable in Dredge, however considering the ways Dredge looses game one:
turn 1 Oath on the play into Iona, follwed by Hasty beats.
turn 1 or 2 Tendrils.
turn 1 or 2 Key-Vault.
maindeck graveyard hate or turn 1 timetwister on the draw to timewalk dredge.
the Leyline shuts off several yard hate options, makes comboing out harder by shutting down gifts, and shuts down Oath and Tendrils entirely. it seems like a superior maindeck option to Chalice of the Void (since Chalice doesn't do anything to Key-Vault either being always played at zero), which sees plenty of play. Both together could be very very strong for a slower but more resilliant dredge build.
Similarly Sun Titan seems like the best Dread Return target ever, considering how many different funcions it can serve. Eternal Wittness already sees some play in Dredge and Titan is like a super-wittness, plus the two together have tremendous synergy.
Why don't you like DSC in TPS anymore? Compared to Sphinx, it cuts your Dredge opponent off 2 turns earlier, gives Tezz 2 less turns to find key-Vault, usually can't be raced by Oath creatures (Sphinx can race it only if they attack first), gives your Tendrils opponent less life to use on Necro and Bargain and 2 fewer turns to "sculpt" the wining hand, and one hit from DSC makes Ad Nauseum a very risky move in a way that a hit from Sphinx does not. Vs shops and fish it gives them less time to dig for an answer - since neither deck runs a pleathora of tutor effects this can be highly relevant.
with the amount of play Hurkyl's effects see, plus the prevailence of Sculpting Steel, opponents have plenty of work-arounds to Inky's shroud, and although they can't block him, he's not that hard for Fish to race compared with Sphinx and DSC whcih are almost impossible for them to race. I just can't think of a deck against which I would want Inky ATM, and due to the above clock-related reasons DSC seems better in most situations than the Sphinx does.
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Cyberpunker
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I just gotta topdeck better than you ^_^.
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« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2010, 11:59:12 am » |
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Why don't you like DSC in TPS anymore? Compared to Sphinx, it cuts your Dredge opponent off 2 turns earlier, gives Tezz 2 less turns to find key-Vault, usually can't be raced by Oath creatures (Sphinx can race it only if they attack first), gives your Tendrils opponent less life to use on Necro and Bargain and 2 fewer turns to "sculpt" the wining hand, and one hit from DSC makes Ad Nauseum a very risky move in a way that a hit from Sphinx does not. Vs shops and fish it gives them less time to dig for an answer - since neither deck runs a pleathora of tutor effects this can be highly relevant.
Versus MUD, Dredge, and Fish, Sphinx gives you the life you need to race them in my experience. Valid points vs TPS and ANT though. |
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Delha
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« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2010, 01:31:29 pm » |
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...gives your Tendrils opponent less life to use on Necro and Bargain and 2 fewer turns to "sculpt" the wining hand, and one hit from DSC makes Ad Nauseum a very risky move in a way that a hit from Sphinx does not. Versus MUD, Dredge, and Fish, Sphinx gives you the life you need to race them in my experience. Valid points vs TPS and ANT though. In fairness, the lifegain from Sphinx also means that the storm count they need for lethal is also 3 higher than before. I'd still say DSC has a edge, since the extra cards off Bargain/Naus may well include Will/DT or somesuch. Just saying that the gap isn't necessarily so huge as implied. |
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I suppose it's mostly the thought that this format is just one big Mistake; and not even a very sophisticated one at that.
Much like humanity itself. |
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Killane
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I am become Death, the destroyer of Worlds
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« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2010, 02:10:25 pm » |
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...gives your Tendrils opponent less life to use on Necro and Bargain and 2 fewer turns to "sculpt" the wining hand, and one hit from DSC makes Ad Nauseum a very risky move in a way that a hit from Sphinx does not. Versus MUD, Dredge, and Fish, Sphinx gives you the life you need to race them in my experience. Valid points vs TPS and ANT though. In fairness, the lifegain from Sphinx also means that the storm count they need for lethal is also 3 higher than before. I'd still say DSC has a edge, since the extra cards off Bargain/Naus may well include Will/DT or somesuch. Just saying that the gap isn't necessarily so huge as implied. I don't know about ANT, but with TPS and GWSx I tend to Storm out at about 13 copies or so if I'm winning anytime after turn 2 anyways, and have on multiple occaisions cast back to back Tendrils with Storm in the mid 50's, for legit reasons against lifegain decks. I don;t think 3 extra storm is really much of an issue in any matchup not based on mana denial. |
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Akuma
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« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2010, 07:09:20 pm » |
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I think the title "M11 Is Amazing in Vintage" is a little much, don't you?
Most of the cards are fringe at best. The only reason we are even looking at Preordain is because of the major shafting turn-you-into-Highlander treatment that Vintage has received courtesy of our good friends at WotC. I guess I could write them a letter and thank them for printing a crappier version of the 1cc blue cantrips they needlessly restricted, which if proven to be useful they will restrict anyway.
I like Leyline of Sanctity, seems like it might be useful.
Stormtide Leviathan is cool, cheaper than Blazing Archon and blue.
I'm still waiting for a proper 3cc black 5/5. Phylactery Lich is a bit narrow unfortunately but it might be a decent plan B for some combo decks (like Phyrexian Negators back in the day). .
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"Expect my visit when the darkness comes. The night I think is best for hiding all."
Restrictions - "It is the scrub's way out"
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honestabe
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How many more Unicorns must die???
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« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2010, 07:59:02 pm » |
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As soon as I saw Preordain, I threw together a GAT list, with 3 goyfs and 4 bobs. Its good. Really good. preordain is going to be a bug player
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As far as I can tell, the entire Vintage community is based on absolute statements
-Chris Pikula |
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Smmenen
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« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2010, 06:40:49 pm » |
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This article is now free! Enjoy!
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Djinn
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« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2010, 07:24:41 pm » |
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I haven't really had a chance to extensively test preordain, so I will not assertively comment yet or give a polarized opinion, but I have read that it is mostly OK - nothing too great, but ok in some decks. Will anyone who has played this card in their deck in a tournament setting comment on their thoughts? I'm interested in finding more out about this card.
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AmbivalentDuck
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Exile Ancestral and turn Tiago sideways.
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« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2010, 07:48:34 pm » |
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Small oversight on the checklist: since you include the rest of the Goblins deck, you almost certainly want to add 3-4x Gempalm Incinerator.
Also, I like Wort, Boggart Auntie: my Vintage list and many of the Legacy lists run her as a singleton since recurring Incinerators can usually blow out aggro. Including her on the list makes a lot of sense for anyone with a gobs list in an aggro meta. She's certainly less marginal than Dimir Cutpurse has become.
Ghost Quarter probably also deserves a mention since it becomes fringe playable in brown whenever the meta sheds basics. Again, probably as much play in recent memory as Dimir Cutpurse.
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